CrazytownSA, that sounds like a good plan. Let us know how it goes and how you feel, reach out for support any time.

No need for apologies my friend! On the contrary, I greatly value these exchanges and am immensely grateful for this space where we can all share  .

It does make sense in my situation. Today, I feel happy . I see the light at the end of the tunnel. I understand that this feeling may not last forever, but I am working towards having the tools to navigate whatever situations life throws at me.


Ah, boundaries. You and me both `don`t get this stuff right`  . Here is my thinking right now:
- I pondered how I am as a person. I am very soft, sensitive, and appeasing. I like to dote on people, and during conflict I want to bridge the divide by going towards the other person. For a long time, I wanted to be different; I wanted to be strong and be able to put people in their place. While I can certainly work on becoming more assertive, I love myself as I am. He certainly does have a valid point in saying that someone who is more like my second description may be what he needs in a partner. I don`t think I can provide that, and it`s okay;
- I also realized that a lot of what I was categorizing as romantic feelings for him would better be considerd unresolved feelings. The time we truly seperated (which I consider to be when he started his latest relationship) was honestly pretty traumatizing for me. I have since forgiven him for the things he said, for my own sake (I don`t even think he remembers), but when I view those emotions as being a tether in my brain to the past, I realize that I wouldn`t want to be with him now, either;
- Of course, there is some hesitancy in these realizations. Their timing is a little opportunistic in the sense that if having romantic feelings for him was what was getting in the way of talking to him, well now I have this reasoning that allows for me to bypass that and be there for him;
- So, back to boundaries. I think that if I maintain my role as support, and not friend with him, I am okay. That`s an important distinction. Again, it`s not super clear, as after I told him I can be his support he said that he doesn`t feel comfortable. Then he said that he will sit with it. Then he sent me an article about BPD, and we`ve been exchanging a couple of thoughts. It`s honestly pretty similar to an exchange we`d have here on the forum. My T said it is important for me to ponder what boundaries would serve me, what obstacles might come up (even if it`s something like I`d feel distressed and anxious). Time will tell, and I`m paying attention to how I feel. I feel supported by her, and by this community.

@Pook075 I've had her arrested.  I have had her hospitalized.  The state gave her back to me, untreated and said I am the problem.  I've had ACS called three times. Each time, after really talking in depth to both of us, looking at evidence from both of us, having us do family therapy, where she dropped out and I maintained it, they said, "Yeah, she's the problem, but we can't do anything to help you."  More or less. She's under 21, and in my state, I need a judge from family court to allow her to be removed from my home. In order to do that, I have to build a case that has VIDEO evidence of her doing things to me.  One can imagine how difficult it can be to get that. The minute my phone gets out, is the minute it's knocked out of my hand and smashed. 

I'm not dealing with a normal person. She gave away her phone, and I let her sit without one for six months. It was more hassle for me that it seemed for her.  Her whole life, she would revel in sitting in her own consequences, and then later use this to prove her abuse and martyrdom. Her current narrative  is how I had her sent to the mental hospital and manipulated everyone to hold a perfectly sane girl in holding.  As if a trained psychiatrist didn't have to make that call. 

I feel like the only call that can be is complete seperation for good or until she gets treatment and sees the destruction she has brought to our relationship. But getting there, I don't know how I can get there with her.  This is why I keep trying. 

@kells76 

Her father and I are divorced. We lived together for some time after the divorce until I finally moved.  That was when she was about 12 and she got signficantly worse during that time.

He is currently living with me. A long story short, I had removed MYSELF from my own apartment on and off for about 15 months in the past 24 months. She was so destructive and abusive, I needed peace of mind and some place that I felt safe from the constant abuse in all forms. The last six months, I asked him to keep and eye on her and my place which she had previously trashed when I was away.   When I had to return (my friend was returing from traveling and needed her place back), I asked him to be there to supervise because I was too afraid to be alone with her. In fact, I am ALWAYS afraid when she is around.  Any boundary I set is met with physical violence, destruction of property, or verbal abuse that goes on for at least two hours or more.  So I do my best to keep the peace. I know that isn't boundary settings, but her level of esculation is more than any person can take.

Her dad says "she's just desperate for you to love her."  Well dang, she has a funny way of showing it.  It's a lot.  I've tried and tried and tried. Nothing I do is right in her eyes, and the blame shifting and the ever shifting targets. I will never met her expectations unless she starts therapy.

Hey Divina and welcome to the forums.

Let me ask you a quick question.  What would you do if I drove to your house tonight, took your favorite jacket, then spit on you and spray painted you when I was confronted?

Because whatever that answer is, that's also what you should do with your daughter every single time she lashes out.

I get that your kid says she wants a loving relationship with you- that's really sweet.  I want to learn how to fly like Superman.  But the problem is, I've never done anything to begin my training...so I can't fly.  Words are meaningless without actions behind them.

Your title, "what does she want", if off-base.  Nobody here cares what she wants because we're here to help you.  And regardless of what your kid wants, we're going to tell you not to give it to her until she's treating you like a loving, respectful daughter.

Why?

Because she's abusive, but you continue to try to give, and she continues to get more abusive.  That tells us that she's not learning right from wrong, which is really your biggest job as a parent.  She has to understand that bad behavior gets bad results every time, while good behavior gets good results sometimes.

You have one play here- stop enabling her.  If she assaults you, call the police and have her arrested.  If she steals or screams or blames you, then ask her to leave your home.  Teach her right from wrong and stop allowing her to manipulate you.

I know that sounds ultra harsh, but enabling her bad behavior is making the living conditions a nightmare for everybody.  It's also keeping her from becoming responsible though, which will have drastic consequences for her later in life.  It has to stop for your sake and everyone else in the house.

Now, I will say that her borrowing a jacket and not returning it is not the end of the world.  It is wrong, of course, but you have to learn to pick your battles when dealing with BPD.  If it's that big of a deal to you, then find a suitable punishment (I'd cancel her cell phone until everything is returned...washed and neatly folded).  She will naturally rebel against the punishment, which is where you ramp up the consequences again (she's not welcome there until she apologizes).  You must stop walking on eggshells and accepting abuse.

Has anyone on her used DBT for their child?  If so, how did it go?  Were there any good results from it?

Are there any options anyone knows about for DBT therapy online that my 13 year old daughter can do?

Think of it this way.  Your wife doesn't want an apology. 

For instance, I can say "I'm sorry for that lousy thing that happened to you last weekend."

I have no idea what you did last weekend, but I'm sure one lousy thing happened.  So in a way, sure, I'm validating your feelings over something I don't know anything about...which probably feels really hollow to you.  How can Pook apologize for something he had nothing to do with and doesn't even know about?

That's how your wife feels because she doesn't want some random "sorry" thrown her way.  It's just words and it's meaningless.

What she actually wants...but what she never says...is for you to understand how she feels.

And you may think, who the heck knows how she feels.  She screams and then cries and then picks a fight and then wants to go to Dairy Queen like nothing ever happened.

I get that because I've been there.  We all have.  It's maddening and makes no sense at all.

However, you know what it feels like to be angry...or sad...or depressed...or frustrated.  If you saw that in a kid, or your mom, or really anyone, what could you say or do to help them process through those feelings?  You'd talk it out, you'd comfort them, you'd help them calm down in the moment and get a grip on what's happening.

That's what your wife wants you to do...even though she'll never actually say that in a million years.  What she wants is for you to be loving and kind and tell her that everything will be okay.

Then why the screaming and all the drama, you ask?  Well, that's the mental illness part of this...it doesn't make sense.  It's overflowing, out of control emotions that can't see left from right, and it causes pure panic in every possible direction.  Your job is to talk her past that, let her know you're not going anywhere, and just love her until the moment passes.

Maybe you'd say, "But you don't get it...it's ALWAYS LIKE THIS!!!"  I do get it though.  Once you start to connect and she can calm down, then it's not these crazy blowouts anymore.  All she's looking for is love and support...even though she says a billion other things. 

What she really means to say (but never says) is that she's insecure and has no idea what to do about it, or how to handle it, because you'd never understand.  And maybe you can't.  But you can understand sad or mad or other emotions...and you know how to comfort and soothe them.  That's where you start and it makes all the difference in the world.

Ah, if only I could do the same as you describe. Unfortunately I've been accused too often of delivering a fauxpology, with particular scorn for anything she perceives as "I'm sorry you feel that way". I do think there's a difference between "I'm sorry you feel that way" vs "I'm sorry for hurting your feelings [even though I don't think there's anything wrong with what I actually did]", but I think that difference is too subtle for her. Or maybe she just really wants a guilt-laden apology (she has said this at times).

I think maybe this comes down to the perceived moral dimension to these (claimed) transgressions. There are mistakes like bumping into someone by accident, and then there's punching someone in the face. In both cases we may apologise, but in the first there's hopefully no moral condemnation by the victim nor is there much of a feeling of guilt by the bumper. If both parties accept that the case in question is more like a bump than a punch, maybe it's feasible to give a "sorry for my role in your feelings being hurt" kind of apology. But if she sees it as a moral failing ("how could you be so inconsiderate?!?" etc) then, in my experience, nothing short of "I'm so sorry, I know I'm not considerate enough, I'll work harder to do better, please give me another chance" will do.

Thanks Kells. I am riddled with uneasy feelings... Second guessing. We have discussed it in marriage therapy. We both agreed this isn't the relationship we really want. Or probably ever has been. My wife was saying things like maybe we should try to separate for a while first. I said I wasn't keen on that, I believe that would really confuse and hurt the children and also is just an easy way of not saying divorce. But we agreed we wanted to stay friends for their sake and for parenting. She seemed to relax more when she heard that I wasn't just going to up sticks and leave. So we are taking it one session at a time, nobody filing. A mediator was even discussed. The therapist said she could help with this. It all felt a bit too reasonable to what I was preparing for... However it doesn't mean it will stay that way. I am committed to remaining calm and show that I care, and I am not just going to abandon her. (Like her parents did and really hurt here). Infact that is the main reason she wasn't wanting to divorce due to how they handled it..

Her main fears were a bit alarming, she was more focused on how I would be fine, and she would struggle, I would have money, she wouldn't. I would have a nice house, she wouldn't. It felt more competitive than actual concerns about missing me, or anything like that. Also how she would be all alone, and I have so much support etc etc. The therapist really perked her ears up and asked lots of questions when she started sharing the victim/ hard done by stuff and how my wife didn't think it would effect me.

But anyway there is hope there that this can be attempted peacefully with lots of professional support. I still feel so guilt torn, taking my kids out of their house, uprooting their lives. Keep feeling selfish and guilty and anxious. But the facts are there therapist said herself its a toxic situation, I am being abused, there is no intimacy, and neither of us feel it is the relationship we want or need. So I guess burying my head in the sand and wishing it was isnt going to change anything

Perhaps another perspective and communication change is needed.  Ponder the concept of "sins of omission vs commission".  Maybe there's not much difference, but in my book there is.  Mine were the "acting-in" sort trying to avoid conflict.  My ex's were the "acting-out" sort, which to me felt worse.

With that in mind, I felt I'd do better (or less worse) by apologizing, not for the incident, but for her feeling bad.  Did it work?  Not much in the long run, the marriage still failed, but It helped me to pull back from apologizing for anything and everything to get past the incident.

Yes I really did try to see whether "apologizing for anything and everything" would work.  It didn't.  If anything it got worse.  It got to the point that even when I apologized, she demanded I reword it to include what she wanted in it.  A few times I purposely left out pieces of the reworded apologies and she kept on demanding I restate it over and over several times.  She didn't even realize that I did it purposely, not due to poor memory of her long list.  After several months I finally declared I'd apologize only for what I perceived appropriate.

Also, if I didn't phrase it that way - her feelings - I'd be like the guy in court who couldn't claim innocence after taking a plea deal which admits guilt.  A court is unlikely to rule me guilty of hurting feelings, but might if I had confessed to doing something bad.