We had a physical fight

[AnnaK]

Well, the surreal thing happened.

We had a fight one day before my leaving, and to spite me, my uBPDbf brought home the same girlfriend he already brought once to our common house (that first time I reacted calmly, just explained him he should not do it)

But this time I snapped and started slapping him on the cheeks, screaming "I told you not to bring them home!", eventually we rolled on the bed, I wanted a fight so i did not keep him out of range (we are both boxers, so physical fight is not entirely illegal, although being careful is essential) . So obviously he got angry and punched me once in the face (no issues, just a bruise), then I took control of the situation and grabbed him on the neck. He had to stop punching me, because I was strangling him - so he let me go (the punch cooled me down a bit, so I did not insist to continue).

We did not fight more (seems like we were both apprehensive after this), but I kept irritating everyone for the rest of the night, not giving them privacy and creating embarrassing situations (such as, I started dancing and singing loudly to my iPhone in front of them - I have a terrible musical taste, so it was just open aggression).

I tried to suggest that either he or the girl has to leave - but he girl refused to leave (seems like she believed I would beat him more if he gets drunk - it's not true, we did training fights many times, we are boxers, so we did not really try to kill each other, just released some emotions)

He also refused to leave out of being stubborn. And I could not leave - I had to pack and catch my flight next day.

So there we were.

Eventually I declared that in my house I am going to follow them like a shadow, so we ended up sleeping all three in the same room.

Now he is very offended because I humiliated and embarrassed him in front of his "other" girlfriend, but I insist, that in this case, I was the humiliated side to begin with, so I can't really take the blame. And he seems to find it hard to take any blame.

He tried to play victim and claim I beat him up, but I sent him a picture of my bruise from his punch - and he does not have a single scratch - I was gentle, just making a show.

Any opinions what now? I also seem to find it hard to take the blame, if any. I am human - I was plain shaking from jealousy and anger, and I could not even go outside, because I had to pack... .what else should I have done?

PS: right after the events, he came very unhappy, and asked me what next. I said I'll reconcile in some time. He kept fighting with the other girl all night long (when I was not there), and then when he woke up now sober they kept fighting even worse. After I said I'd reconcile, he literally removed the crying girl from the house (he drove her home), she was emotionally devastated from his emotional games (same as he uses on me) and even forgot half her things in our house (they came back and picked up the things). But now that I am back to Spain, he turned stubborn, tried to give me silent treatment, it did not work, so now he is just saying that he does not want to talk to me.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[AnnaK]

I dont even know, maybe I should not have posted it. I guess now I will have to take some scolding too.

Also it may be outside the topic of  BPD forum discussion

Just remove it, if so.

In general, i am not very much bothered, I think I did what I should have done to stand for myself. I am ready to forget and make peace and so that everyone would be friends (and I already made peace with the other girl).

But he cant get over the beating i gave him. But it was pointless to talk, we have already talked of it, and he seemed ashamed and very unhappy, and now he did it again... .I had to do something more radical than talking for the information to sink - otherwise he was taking it as if I would be ready to always take the pain and forgive him.

PS Just to make this point again. We are BOTH boxers, and we did training fights, and thus, violence as such is NOT entirely illegal. Do not advice me to run please. I get worse in the gym than this little encounter on the regular basis.

Moreover, I am physically capable to fight him as equal. Moreover, as there was no blood or broken teeth, I assume, BOTH of us were very careful. So "domestic violence" is not really the point.

[vortex of confusion]

I've been where you were when this happened. The anger, the rage, the jealousy, and all of those intense emotions come to a head. I got physical with my husband once. At the time it happened, I felt very justified in doing it. He lied to me. He got up in my face and screamed at me and told me to hit him.

Now that I have a lot of distance between me and the incident, I can see that I shouldn't have done it. I let myself get out of control. It doesn't matter if you are a boxer or weren't trying to hurt him. The truth is that you were physical and were beating each other up. Ask yourself if that is what you want out of life?

How do you feel when you get out of control like that? You said that you couldn't leave and didn't have any other options. To me, the whole situation sounds like a power trip between you and your partner and girlfriend. All of you had agendas and seemed hell bent on furthering your own agenda. I am not judging you. I have been there and done that. I have been a horrible pain in the butt at times because I wanted to be right. I wanted to prove something to someone (me, him, the world, anybody that would listen). Now, I don't care as much. I just want peace. To get that peace, there are times when I walk away or let things go.

Figure out what you want and what you can live with and go for it. However, physical violence in a relationship is something that should never be acceptable. There are other ways to get your point across.

[AnnaK]

Well, honestly?

Well, you ask a boxer if I enjoy fight? Yes, I enjoy a good fight, provided everybody is reasonably careful. I would like to have a good fight like about 4 times a week, unfortunately, he has a recently broken rib (almost healed) and other injuries from the car accident.

When living alone in Spain I do have a good fight in my gym as often as I can.

Moreover, it seemed to me that we BOTH enjoyed some messing around.

Well, I had few options indeed. The other option was to take the pain, let them have their intimacy and somehow ride it out.

I did it 2 months ago. I was extremely happy I did not have to do it again.  

No, I did not have an option of letting go. Even if I made a decision to let go right now, it would take months to implement.

And acute jealousy is, unfortunately, an instinct. You CANT reason it away. It is impossible, at least while the other lady is in the house.

I did not want to be right. I just wanted to take out the pain at someone fit enough to accept it. Luckily, he was right there and he was fit enough and he deserved it. As a side goal, I wanted to check the block I recently learned. And I really wanted him to learn that two girls in the same house is an extremely ugly layout - it literally leads to a fight.

Yes, after having a physical fight I felt much, much better. The pain stopped. I was almost calm again, and I could sleep.

I don't think I was out of control exactly. Or more like, I am not sure. I did not feel out of control. I felt my mind was going on overdrive creating a trap for him: beat or get beaten. In front of the other girl. Whatever you do, you get in trouble. I am not sure why and how I came to that idea. But it was a trap. I felt I could not HURT him - physically could not, I have some "stopper" in my mind that just does not let me to, say, break his lip. When time came to make that "elbow in the face" move, I stopped, because he was not able to block. Never once I tried to hurt him in the area of broken rib or other sensitive zones.

I am afraid, to some point, it was almost a show.

[AnnaK]

Honestly, I found it one of the best ways to get my point across, given the situation.

In just about 3-5 minutes of combat, it was crystal clear to everyone, why a man should never bring two women into the same house.

It can only work out if both women agree to absorb the pain (the other girl was also quite shy). If at least one woman resents, it becomes a nightmare.

Moreover, even if he now refuses to admit, that the whole situation was of his own creation, what do I lose? If he is not capable of understanding why he should not be intimate with another woman right in front of me, I see no way to retain my sanity, so I will have to quit.

[vortex of confusion]

If you like physical aggression and want to fight, keep it at the gym.

Your partner may have been a willing participant in the fight because you gave him no choice. If he wants to meet with you at the gym and box with you, so be it. Ambushing him like that to prove your point is not okay.

No, you cannot reason away acute jealousy. But, you can certainly choose how you react to that jealousy.

What is your reason for posting your story? What is it that you are seeking?

Do you think it is healthy to want to inflict your pain on others? Does anybody really deserve to be attacked or ambushed? If you were to explain yourself in a court of law, would a judge or anybody else accept the reasoning "he was right there and he was fit enough and he deserved it." That kind of reasoning has domestic abuse written all over it. How many abusers use this kind of reasoning to justify physical violence towards a partner? I think it is crap. No matter what kind of justification you use, it is not okay to ambush another human being unless the other person has given prior consent. I am not saying that you are an abuser but I do think it might be helpful for you to think carefully about these types of things.

I don't think I was out of control exactly. Or more like, I am not sure. I did not feel out of control. I felt my mind was going on overdrive creating a trap for him: beat or get beaten. In front of the other girl. Whatever you do, you get in trouble. I am not sure why and how I came to that idea. But it was a trap. I felt I could not HURT him - physically could not, I have some "stopper" in my mind that just does not let me to, say, break his lip. When time came to make that "elbow in the face" move, I stopped, because he was not able to block. Never once I tried to hurt him in the area of broken rib or other sensitive zones.

No matter how you try to justify it, it is not okay to attack somebody that hasn't given prior consent. It doesn't matter whether or not you hurt him or intended to hurt him. The fact of the matter is that you instigated a physical altercation. You can try to justify it however you want. I don't think that it is okay.

Moreover, even if he now refuses to admit, that the whole situation was of his own creation, what do I lose? If he is not capable of understanding why he should not be intimate with another woman right in front of me, I see no way to retain my sanity, so I will have to quit.

If he is doing things that you don't like, set a boundary and do not use physical force to enforce your boundaries. If he cannot respect your boundary of not wanting to see him with another woman in front of you, then walk away from the relationship. You could have left that evening. You could have stayed in another room. Heck, if you asked her to leave and she wouldn't, would it have been possible to ask for assistance from the police or somebody else to get her to leave. Was it your house, your partner's house, or was it a jointly owned/rented house? If it was his house, then it would have been your place to leave (from a legal stand point). If it was YOUR house or a jointly owned place, then you had ever right to ask her to leave. Sometimes, it helps to take a step back and look at things from a practical stand point.

[AnnaK]

Well, honestly I have no way to answer this.

Looks like I have to leave this relationship, end of story.

[AnnaK]

I understand that what I have done is bordering to the definition of battery and physical abuse.

It is very easy to say - you could have left. But where? How? I was alone, in the middle of India, it was late night. I was not sure I would manage to pack thoroughly and to find a room in the hotel (which hotel?) that late at night. I had the flight next day.

If I were to forget something important (example: my laptop or my hard drive) in India, I would have lost my job.

I have no illusions - with his abandonment fears, if I were to leave like this, I would have never gotten back whatever I would have forgotten.

The flat contract is on his name, but I was paying the rent during last 11 months. In cash. But I have no proof of it on paper. You don't really fix on paper such arrangements. That is, not to mention that we did not want to involve police.

It is easy to say "set the boundary", but HOW? Leaving before my return flight (buying a flight to Europe) would cost me half my salary - I can't really leave on a whim. And I can't leave repeatedly, according to his promises. He is notorious in giving false promises.

My only way out is to make it extremely uncomfortable for him to ambush me this way - using another girl. Perhaps I could have done it in a non-violent way, but it happened unexpectedly and I could not think.

Honestly, acting hysterical is a NATURAL reaction in this situation. 

Right now, okay, I left, I am back to Spain. Perhaps, I can just end it here.

[AnnaK]

And one more thing.

I have been bullied for about 8 years when I was in school.

I have learned that with bullies, it is better to have the reputation of the insane who throws herself into a fight at the slightest provocation than to try to "tough it out", to "be smarter", to "not pay attention", to "solve it verbally" etc. etc.

All that I tried during my school years. It does not help.

[123Phoebe]

So "domestic violence" is not really the point.

Huh, what is? 

[AnnaK]

That's over.

This was the first time I ever beat anyone, so I ended the relationship.

I am 37 years old. If I never beat anyone since I was 8, this is for a reason.

But I know I will do it again in the similar circumstances.

And what can I say? "Bringing another girlfriend home is wrong, please don't do it because it hurts" ?

He knows it hurts. He did it precisely to hurt me. And if he hurts me again, i am sure I will lash out in the exact same way.

Better end it before I become a real abuser.

PS : For all the righteous here. Victims of the abuse sometimes snap and lash out and even kill their abusers. And they get to prison for that. That does not make them abusers. I am unfortunately a victim, not an abuser. This is not the first time he is trying to cause me pain. The only reason why he does not batter me, is because once he tried and FAILED - I used Muay Thai kicks to keep his punches away from my face... .nobody got hurt that day, but since then he is not trying to hit me, he only hits me "emotionally". Like the case I described.

He also tried to badmouth my relatives ("your mother is a prostitute!", again he got slapped for that (after a polite warning to please stop, and I only slapped him once that day - that was the first time I lashed out at him), and since then he is verbally polite to me. But he is intelligent and he just started to use more refined tools

[AnnaK]

So "domestic violence" is not really the point.

Huh, what is?  

I usually don't beat people (I was in other relationships, it never ever happened that I would lash out), so I was trying to make sense of it.

Yes, now I see it clearly. It's the case of the counter-violence, when the victim lashes back at the abuser.

[sweetheart]

Hello AnnaK,

I read your post yesterday and was really shocked by what had happened. I am sorry that you have been subjected to abusive behaviour from your bf in the form of him bringing another woman into the house.

If you believe that you just snapped and lashed out at him this of course can and does happen to people on the receiving end of sustained abuse. Many members of these forums have written about that here. However that is not how your post read, what you described in your post was that the fight was a choice you made in wanting to act out your anger and upset and cause hurt to your bf. This is held up in your ability to withhold certain punches and holds and think about how you might cause him minimal damage and not leave any physical marks on him. If you had just snapped this type of controlled fighting on your part would not have been possible.

I have read your previous posts and it is clear to me that you have been expressing how you feel through physical violence albeit controlled. Like Vortex of Confusion said fighting/martial arts should be kept in the gym. Your posts read as abusive towards your bf whatever your reasons and your actions. If he had chosen to report your assault to the police and press charges you could have ended up being prosecuted.

If the relationship you are/were in with your bf is causing you to feel and act in this way then the most positive and safest thing you can do is take time away from this relationship and get some support to explore what has been happening emotionally for you.

I just want to end by saying as someone who is trained in martial arts you must be aware that the underlying philosophy is not to use your fighting skills in the way that you have chosen to. It is a disciplined, specialist art form which teaches certain fundamental principles for its use outside training schools.

[AnnaK]

I was not using my fighting skills except to protect myself when it came to real fight. Even so, he gave me a punch, from which I had a bruise. I did not pay much attention at it, but now I realise, that he did not really have to do it.

I was not thinking about "not leaving marks on him", I was just slapping him (slaps don't do any harm - not that bad I was slapping), but at some moment I realised that I WANT to hurt him more (that's why I think that I really lashed out), but I CANT hurt him, that is, not technically... .technically I am perfectly capable... .but I tried, but my body refused to obey me. I could not gather the force necessary even to leave a bruise on him.

Please note, that in our sparing boxing fights (those by mutual consent of course), I once broke his lip - using gloves - so I DO HAVE THE POWER AND THE SKILL.

But I have a psychological block against hurting people. It's not about the marks. I knew my body would not obey me if I try to cause him any pain. So it was only slaps and self-defence later when he got to punching me.

I also could not kick him in the stomach to maintain safe distance, because he has a barely healed broken rib... .it would hurt him. Again, my body refused to obey me.  

In fact, I've taken his punch on my face (I had a bruise from it for about a week), because the block I was using included a movement "elbow in the face", and he did not know this movement, so he did not block it, and he was just staring at me, not understanding - so I thought - and now what? am I going to hit him elbow in the face? This defenceless? And I could not.

I got confused in the technique and took his punch on myself instead. Then I thought "oops, he's gonna punch me again", so I had to choke him so that he backs off. Again, he did not suffer any pain, not that bad I was chocking, but he understood, that he can't punch me more - it's time to let me go. He was punching me lying on top of me in "dominant position", after we rolled on the bed.


PS: this - him bringing another woman on me - happened the second time. The first case I thought it must be a mistake - nobody does it! - so I toughed it out, trying to remove myself from the scene. I told him not to bring the girls home - it really creates an ugly situation and it hurts. So this time he knew exactly what he was doing. No chance of a mistake. Even the girl did not want to see him anymore (we talked with the girl), but he came there without no warning, told a mountain of lies to her (we talked with her after this case too) - so she believed him and came.

[AnnaK]

This is why I doubt I was really in controlled state of mind, because when I am in controlled state of mind (such as - in the ring), I am perfectly capable to break someone's lip.

But inside I am just that kinda mouse, that I am afraid to hurt people, I have a subconscious block against it... .so I was not really in controlled state of mind - I knew the technique, but my body refused to obey me. It was not about marks. I just could not cause him any substantial pain (such as break his lip or punch him to leave a bruise on him)

I knew the movement, I knew the effort, I knew how to use my body... .but my arms felt weak even when I was thinking of it. That surprised me, but there was nothing much I could do about it.

Thinking of it, partially, I think I was trying to PROVOKE HIM INTO A FIGHT, so that I could take the pain and get rid of "fight-or-flight" state I was in... .and "flight" was impossible due to my departure next day.

I could not beat him because of the mental block - so I wanted to take the beating on myself, if this can be called "logical". That would give me the exercise and release of the inside pain.

PS: even now, as I recall the situation, I understand that indeed I would not manage to deliver, say, a bare handed right cross to his jaw. I feel literally sick at the very idea.

[AnnaK]

In fact, I feel ridiculously unhappy that I am such a mouse and how my skills deteriorated to bare slaps and self-defence in uncontrolled situation. I probably need more training (anyone wants to fight bare handed to bruises?)

He, of course, he is only blaming me in "hitting him"... .although it seems like he stopped after I sent him the picture of the bruise.

Now he is not blaming me in anything, just said he does not want to talk to me and suggested me to "leave him" - so I simply agreed.

Somehow currently I also don't feel like talking to him.

However I doubt it would be that simple.

I suspect he is feeling more than a little guilty, but as he suffered quite a humiliation from the girl beating him in front of another girl (what a surprise), not to mention that he really did give me a bruise... .he can't really sort it out.

[AnnaK]

So it's not my ability to withhold punches... .it was unfortunately (or fortunately?) my inability to deliver punches.

The other way around it is.

If I had the choice, I probably would not withhold it, but my body refused to obey.

PS: I have always been a big child, and I am a big girl, 173cm/75kg, and I fight with boys in gym... .but even a little bully kid could safely harass me, because I was afraid to do something to hurt those little bullies :-/

[SlyQQ]

It seems like the boxing is a good outlet the main complications are you " beating him " has probably really hurt his ego this may manifest into a major problem everyone handles there relationship problems in different ways you are on the edge though ( i have done some boxes an can pull my punches i doubt someone with BPD is nessacarily safe to do this with an it only takes one lucky punch with out protection to flatten you if he happens to be raging this is not neccasarily safe but it is your life an your relationship you obviously enjoy the adrenilin?

[AnnaK]

Yes, thank you, I do enjoy the adrenaline. A lot. It takes about 4-5 days of sparrings in the gym to take me out of "get me more of it" mood.

Yes, it badly hurt his ego. Girl N 1 has beaten him in front of Girl N 2. And... .it's India. He kinda unconsciously believes in the superiority over girls by birth right.

But I doubt i had to take care of his self-image given the... .errr... .situation.

I know it's kinda unsafe as if he gets in uncontrolled rage, he'd probably smash me... .well, so far it never happened. I am aware it takes only one punch, so I usually keep him off distance with muay thai kicks (he is a pure boxer, does not know how to block kicks, elbows and the like)

[AnnaK]

Honestly, I don't know what to do. For now we broke up.

He did not give his reasons (although they are obvious), and I somehow don't feel like taking the blame on myself.

Besides, if abuse takes the anger out of me, that's of course, good for me (I have my anger blocked out, so becoming a little angrier is good for me), but I may end up becoming excessively angry, do some serious damage and end up having charges pressed on me.

I have very little real-life fighting experience, so I have problems picking up "safe" zones to deliver real-life punches (I assure you, I don't want to spend the rest of my life in prison). I am learning from him though - he does have a lot of real life fighting experience (he used to be a teenager with "punching problem" - that is, he'd punch people out of anger - by the age of 35 he kinda learned HOW to punch to avoid serious problems).


I feel, however, that this relationship is unique because it assists in my personal growth. We are both playing out the bully-victim situations, however, he used to be the bully in school... .and I am, the victim. It helps me understand what I went through as a child (8 years of being bullied... .but those guys are all dead from criminal activities now)

As a child, and later, I could never understand what makes a person hurt another person. Now through the "love lense", and using the empathy, I see it much better.

[SlyQQ]

Well you are learning hopefully you can close the page an move on you obviously have some represssed anger to work through but sounds like you are doing fine dont let him bring you down people with BPD CAN BE VERY CANNY IN WAYS YOU DONT EVEN SUSPECT so keep your gaurd up an lead with your left

[AnnaK]

people with BPD CAN BE VERY CANNY IN WAYS YOU DONT EVEN SUSPECT

you " beating him " has probably really hurt  his ego

this may manifest into a major problem

Sly, can you expand on this please?

I would like to know what kind of a problem I should expect from a BPD male (or just a male, raised in a non-equal system like indian)

Of course, we may just breakup. Me in Spain, him in India, he won't be able to reach me.

But what if he reappears, like he usually did before and we reconcile? What kind of a problem may emerge?

----

Right now ironically the "worst" has already happened - we pretty much broke up yesterday night. But with BPD it's never like you break up forever. It's more like you break up for two weeks, two months, sometimes two years... .I wonder what will happen this time.

Will he get over it? Will he try to reconcile, then take revenge on me?

Me, I am doing well enough, all this have only empowered me to work on my self-esteem and other issues (including repressed anger), I got better at identifying and clearing out my emotions (they used to go somatic), I got motivation to train in the gym etc.

Me, I am as usual "... .and let's everybody be friends" (including the rival girl!), so although I declared walking out, I would not even mind to reconcile, given the opportunity.

------

Right now it feels like obviously his ego is badly hurt, but as he created the situation all on his own, he can't really claim that I should protect his ego in front of the girl with whom he was... .pretty much cheating on me. Crazy he is not.

[AnnaK]

He remembers the past "offences" I supposedly commited on him for years (including saying "hi" to his brother in Facebook and slapping him for saying things about my mother), but he never tried to take revenge on me for those. He does understand the concept of being fair.

PS: I don't currently want to move on anywhere. I am quite sick of relationships in general, except some very particular ones like this one.

I'd rather do some boxing instead. So I am not really moving on anywhere... .for a while, and unless I find a really-really interesting man. I am not supposed to obligatorily be in a relationship in any given moment, am I?

PPS: I am always remembering that joke. Psychiatrist is getting married and tells to collegue: "Ah, yes, of course, she is ugly, troublesome, awful mother and housekeeper, she does not earn anything... .but if only you knew, how interesting are her nightmares!"

[SlyQQ]

It is a hard call from here they can literally do anything

from framing you to defaming you an more but if he is from a criminal background that might be hard

or he could just forget about you completely until it suits him it then move in on a new relationship when you least want it depends on his head space

regard him as an oppomnent ( which it seems you already do) an dont underestimate him Basically what i am saying is people with BPD dont fight fair

[AnnaK]

It is a hard call from here they can literally do anything

from framing you to defaming you an more

but if he is from a criminal background that might be hard

or he could just forget about you completely until it suits him it

then move in on a new relationship when you least want it depends on his head space

regard him as an opponent ( which it seems you already do)  an dont underestimate him

Basically what i am saying is people with BPD dont fight fair

No, no criminal background.

framing/defaming is probable. I am already being framed/defamed like a "foreign girl who makes his mind against family and prevents him from getting married to a good indian girl inside his caste". The "rival" girl to whom I talked, has reproached me in those sins.

Although I met him when he was complaining that he can't live with family and can't find a girl to marry (both things because of his drinking). Well, I found him a place to live outside family (I paid his rent), and suggested as an option to marry me if he wants.

He is still afraid though to marry me, although family does not seem to mind

Forgetting/recycling is probable.

Moving on a new relationship... .yeah, I keep this in mind. Last time we recycled he did pull me out of a relationship, but I was going insane from boredom in it anyway. It was my own decision to jump out.

Well, let's see.

[SlyQQ]

I understand the taste for danger ( it is a bad equation to bring children into if that is a consideration) an a lot of what you said rings bells with me My life is so far from boring I often yearn for it though, over time I hope you can find peace and with that comes happiness I am still searching though

[AnnaK]

I don't have peace, but I have happiness. I don't see peace and happiness as equal.

I am quite happy with my life.

I see happiness in growth and in having all kinds of emotions, negative as well as positive (of course with periods of rest to recover).

I have all this now... .at least I used to, with this guy... .I am not sure what I am going to do when he's gone out of my life... .I was wondering, should I check nearby pubs to find another alcoholic? They seem so interesting :D

[SlyQQ]

I am just about straight edge an a lot more interesting than any alcoholic you will likely find plus most people think i am a nice guy interesting and exciting doesnt have to mean mal adjusted the world is a big place nes pas

[AnnaK]

Lol... .but you are probably in USA, and it's so hard to get a visa... .:D

[SlyQQ]

Oz my first wife was swedish her visa was a bit tricky but like i said the worlds a big place

[SlyQQ]

I am guessing since your english is so good you would know that oz meant Australia but just in case

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[AnnaK]

Well, for now India is closer, Australia next time :D... .I m in Spain

[SlyQQ]

so you have no sense of adventure

[AnnaK]

Well, not enough, I'd say

[SlyQQ]

could be a good thing mellowing like a good wine over time counting down to new year hear had the swim done the cream slide wrapped up the drinking games just some singing an dancing to go unfortunately i am sober an have to check my computer for work but going to make the best of the rest of the year now so HAPPY NEW YEAR! 

[AnnaK]

Yeah, Happy New Year to you too.

I am hopelessly sober, going to remain sober, and I am actually working now. I m software developer.

---

We'll probably reconcile with my bf - after breaking up "forever", the abandonment fear has come in and gave us both a cold shower.

[SlyQQ]

Glad to hear it ( most software developers are crazy so that explains a lot) if you want some throw away advice from someone who is probably a bit like you its this I always thought nothing could really touch me but children turned out to be my achilles heel dont let yourself be vunerable to your BPD partner

have had to try an control my BPD stepdaughters ( who i now care for ) an boyfriends fights there psych suggested a safe word it might be worth testing this with your partner to see if it works

All the best  

[AnnaK]

Yeah, we are not yet decided about children. The next checkpoint is getting married (or not getting married). As this issue is given to him to decide upon (he has more family pressure - I have none), it may never happen.

Right now he told me that I should not come back to India "because you had enough".

But when I pointed out that I see the intensity of emotions (positive as well as negative) as a way to live an emotionally satisfying life (that's true), he instantly reversed the blame.

Last I heard from him, is that I want to be happy (have intense emotions) in spite of the harm it causes to others.

That's not true of course... .or no more true that I cause harm to people because of having been born.

I see it more like standing in the rain - the rain will continue, no matter if I stand there or not. My liking the rain or hating the rain does not affect the rain itself.

I did not SEEK emotions by acting out. I already HAD the emotions as a hard reality given to me at the moment I snapped.

[AnnaK]

Well, after talking more to him, I guess we are down to old good love-hate cycle.

I LEFT India, after all... .abandoned... .and he has no control over my coming back... .and he does not trust me that I would come back, no matter how much I repeat that I would. And the more I repeat that I would come back, the angrier he gets.

So he is in the dark place, nothing to be done.

[hurting300]

Do you think maybe both of you should take a step back and evaluate this relationship? Once things get heated and physical fights start it can get rather dangerous.

[SlyQQ]

Pondering what you said it is likely he might want to hurt you emotionally or phycically at this stage but he also wants you back in his sphere of influence ( nice trick no wonder he is black ) just curiously where abouts in india ( I only know a bit about new dehli ( dont go there before the monsoon and spent some time in kashmir pakistan and sri lanka if that counts )

[AnnaK]

Do you think maybe both of you should take a step back and evaluate this relationship? Once things get heated and physical fights start it can get rather dangerous.

I do martial arts, so I welcome physical fight, it does not bother me... . from what it looked, we were both content to let out a bit of steam

Right after that, I was like - ooh, this bare-handed fight was good, I never fought bare-handed before - please, please - will we do it again? He was also quite good natured - he does like fighting too.

The girl who became the witness, she was shocked and crying though.

[AnnaK]

Pondering what you said it is likely he might want to hurt you emotionally or phycically at this stage but he also wants you back in his sphere of influence ( nice trick no wonder he is black )

just curiously where abouts in india ( I only know a bit about new dehli ( dont go there before the monsoon and spent some time in kashmir pakistan and sri lanka if that counts )

You are very right, I recently realised, that it is probably that he has no more control over the events, this is what bothers him most.

Not that I do anything weird, but there are natural delays, related to finances and everything, and he can't know from the distance why it's been a week and I am still without tickets.

The separation where he had control over tickets and I did not (he went to his home city), it bothered ME more than it bothered him.

So it's about control.

It's in Delhi NCR. I spent summer right before monsoon there, and it gets very hot indeed. However, I bear heat better than I bear cold, so it's fine. This December it was very cold there, and I was very unhappy about it.

[hurting300]

Do you think maybe both of you should take a step back and evaluate this relationship? Once things get heated and physical fights start it can get rather dangerous.

I do martial arts, so I welcome physical fight, it does not bother me... .  from what it looked, we were both content to let out a bit of steam

Right after that, I was like - ooh, this bare-handed fight was good, I never fought bare-handed before - please, please - will we do it again? He was also quite good natured.

The girl who became the witness, she was shocked and crying though.

This isn't healthy. You really should be careful using martial arts, most people who do know and have been trained don't welcome people to "try them"  things are going to get seriously dangerous between you two. Are you in therapy?

[AnnaK]

Do you think maybe both of you should take a step back and evaluate this relationship? Once things get heated and physical fights start it can get rather dangerous.

I do martial arts, so I welcome physical fight, it does not bother me... . from what it looked, we were both content to let out a bit of steam

Right after that, I was like - ooh, this bare-handed fight was good, I never fought bare-handed before - please, please - will we do it again? He was also quite good natured.


The girl who became the witness, she was shocked and crying though.

This isn't healthy. You really should be careful using martial arts, most people who do know and have been trained don't welcome people to "try them"  things are going to get seriously dangerous between you two. Are you in therapy?

Oh my, we are not using it to kill each other. He also knows boxing, so we are both very careful.

That is, martial arts training does not only teach you how to hurt people - it also teaches you how NOT to hurt people too bad.

Everybody remembers that we still want each other alive... .it reminds me more of those fights that my cats stage every couple of hours - they look like badly dangerous animals in the middle of killing each other - but none of the cats gets any damage  

PS: by the way I also never fight with anyone who did not have special training. It's dangerous for them and not interesting for me.

[hurting300]

Do you think maybe both of you should take a step back and evaluate this relationship? Once things get heated and physical fights start it can get rather dangerous.

I do martial arts, so I welcome physical fight, it does not bother me... .  from what it looked, we were both content to let out a bit of steam

Right after that, I was like - ooh, this bare-handed fight was good, I never fought bare-handed before - please, please - will we do it again? He was also quite good natured.

The girl who became the witness, she was shocked and crying though.

This isn't healthy. You really should be careful using martial arts, most people who do know and have been trained don't welcome people to "try them"  things are going to get seriously dangerous between you two. Are you in therapy?

Oh my, we are not using it to kill each other. He also knows boxing, so we are both very careful.

So, in the heat of a moment fight with a possible BPD, your convinced he'll watch how hard he hits you? I'm not judging or scrutinizing you... we're just talking. 

[AnnaK]

Do you think maybe both of you should take a step back and evaluate this relationship? Once things get heated and physical fights start it can get rather dangerous.

I do martial arts, so I welcome physical fight, it does not bother me... .  from what it looked, we were both content to let out a bit of steam

Right after that, I was like - ooh, this bare-handed fight was good, I never fought bare-handed before - please, please - will we do it again? He was also quite good natured.

The girl who became the witness, she was shocked and crying though.

This isn't healthy. You really should be careful using martial arts, most people who do know and have been trained don't welcome people to "try them"  things are going to get seriously dangerous between you two. Are you in therapy?

Oh my, we are not using it to kill each other. He also knows boxing, so we are both very careful.

So, in the heat of a moment fight with a possible BPD, your convinced he'll watch how hard he hits you? I'm not judging or scrutinizing you... we're just talking. 

Yes. He has been having the "punching problem" since teenager (that is, he'd punch people when angry), I still don't know anything about anyone murdered by him. When we were boxing, he talked a lot about how to "safely" hit someone, and why one should not use some specific punches (like uppercut to the chin)

[AnnaK]

All the damage I know about was inflicted when he'd punched untrained people too hard, and looked more like accidents - he'd push someone, and that person would fall.

My muscles and reflexes are used to this types of situations, so it will hardly happen here.

[AnnaK]

All the damage I know about was inflicted when he'd punched untrained people too hard, and looked more like accidents - he'd push someone, and that person would fall.

This is precisely the reason why I would never ever fight untrained people. I might not even do anything, just scare, and they might lose balance and hurt themselves.

[hurting300]

Interesting, so what's your plan for the relationship? What steps do you feel like you should take?

[AnnaK]

Interesting, so what's your plan for the relationship? What steps do you feel like you should take?

Does one really need a plan for a relationship?

I am getting to know him better, it is good direction in any relationship.

At some point his parents will probably chase him down, so he'll face the need to marry. I believe in his common sense, that he'd rather marry me, now that I know him quite well, than some girl he does not know (that infamous indian arranged marriage).

He is afraid to trust me, but so much more he is afraid to trust a stranger.

I made it very clear that I won't be able to continue if he marries someone else... .that does not work well for my self-respect.

If it does not happen... .well, nothing to be done, I will go through "love withdrawal" and keep living.

[AnnaK]

We did have some moments... .

"So you always act on impulse?" - "So you never do?" ... .mutually staring

"So you want to punch people JUST BECAUSE ANGRY?" - "So you don't?" ... .mutually staring

Now the relationship has worked its magic... .we are learning from each other... .

Before I met him, I had problems with feeling angry (I never ever had a fight with any friend or boyfriend before - I mean, ANY fight, not even verbal disagreement - this guy, our first fights, I was just staring in bewilderment, he did not seem to need any help to have a verbal fight with me - initially I was not sure what he expected me to say during a fight, but with trial and error, I figured out), I never ever acted on impulse and I could not hit/hurt any person (to the absurd extend that I was bullied for 8 years at school - but I did not want to fight back because I could hurt the feelings of my bullies)

This guy because of his own problems would push me further and further, to the very edge and beyond, when I would not have any choice but to snap back... .it was good for me, because in this process he did find my boundary (or made me define it) and I got the precious experience to snap back and defend my boundaries. 

[SlyQQ]

Food for thought You are maybe on some levels "addicted " to this relationship between the adrenilin rush and the push pull stuff that pumps up the seretonin each time you reconnect. There are also relative healthy an relatively unhealthy addictions ( those that promote well being exercise or hard drugs for example ) in either case the addiction can end up having an undue influence over your life and to some extent controlling it . Having said that a life lived without passion is a life not lived,  If your Partner is BPD which he may well not be he is going to be able to switch supply ten times more easily than you ( though I am not 100% sure exactly where you stand with regards to being "normal" ( yes I find normal generally boring to but i dont find boring all bad ) But i guess that is part of the danger that attracts you

Guessing here but you have me interested Guessing you are on south coast of Spain ( nice but havnt been there ) An i have ruled you being of northern european, US or hi caste indian the only people that would have your level of english other than uk irish or ex pat I am guessing Irish but dont tell me keep me guessing

 

[hurting300]

We did have some moments... .

"So you always act on impulse?" - "So you never do?" ... .mutually staring

"So you want to punch people JUST BECAUSE ANGRY?" - "So you don't?" ... .mutually staring

Now the relationship has worked its magic... .we are learning from each other... .

Before I met him, I had problems with feeling angry (I never ever had a fight with any friend or boyfriend before - I mean, ANY fight, not even verbal disagreement - this guy, our first fights, I was just staring in bewilderment, he did not seem to need any help to have a verbal fight with me - initially I was not sure what he expected me to say during a fight, but with trial and error, I figured out), I never ever acted on impulse and I could not hit/hurt any person (to the absurd extend that I was bullied for 8 years at school - but I did not want to fight back because I could hurt the feelings of my bullies)

I live in America, I had a huge crush on a girl from India, her dad owned a store. You really should have a hard look at your and his actions, and come up with a plan. You're on the staying board so you should get good advise should you decide fully that you want to stay. Thanks for sharing.

[SlyQQ]

P.S. it is the humidity and wind that makes the cold an heat in Delhi so hard to handle live somewhere else if you can

[AnnaK]

Food for thought

You are maybe on some levels "addicted " to this relationship

between the adrenilin rush and the push pull stuff that pumps up the seretonin

each time you reconnect. There are also relative healthy an relatively unhealthy

addictions ( those that promote well being exercise or hard drugs for example )

in either case the addiction can end up having an undue influence over your

life and to some extent controlling it . Having said that a life lived without passion

is a life not lived,  

If your Partner is BPD which he may well not be he is going to be able to switch

supply ten times more easily than you ( though I am not 100% sure exactly

where you stand with regards to being "normal" ( yes I find normal generally

boring to but i dont find boring all bad ) But i guess that is part of the danger

that attracts you

I know there is an element of addiction. But I assume I have attachment problem, because in the absence of addiction, with an emotionally available nice guy, I feel bored and walk away.

So I knew from start he is good at making girls addicted (I did not know what is BPD, but I knew perfectly what is push/pull cycle and how it affects girls), and I went for him knowing/hoping he would make me reasonably addicted to prevent me from getting bored and walking away - but not so addicted to ruin my life (there were other addicted girls around him, who complained he ruined their lives).

I knew it might be dangerous or at least very stressful to live with him, so the setup of three months in/three months out was quite good for me. No jumping head first.

He does switch supply... .in fact there were always other girlfriends around him. I actually feel sorry for them, because of his tendency to ruin their lives... .and I doubt he understands the mechanism, just considers girls to be weak and emotional... .he used to reproach me in not being sufficiently "emotional" (that is, I read it, that he wanted also to ruin my life, but it did not work)

Guessing here but you have me interested Guessing you are on south coast of Spain

( nice but havnt been there ) An i have ruled you being of northern european, US or

hi caste indian the only people that would have your level of english other than uk

irish or ex pat  I am guessing Irish

but dont tell me keep me guessing  

Wrong. Nothing to do with England. And my English I learned at 15 Then I lived in USA for 3 years.

[AnnaK]

 

If your Partner is BPD which he may well not be he is going to be able to switch

supply ten times more easily than you

His being BPD also means he is extremely bad at "doing" a long-term relationship. If he gets serious into anyone, all I have to do is to leave them alone for a couple of months - the problems sorts itself.

[SlyQQ]

silly of me to overlook something so obvious sigh

[SlyQQ]

the last remark was re you being in the states So do you think he is more addicted to you or vice versa ?

[AnnaK]

the last remark was re you being in the states

So do you think he is more addicted to you or vice versa ?

I never considered if he is addicted to me. I don't seek to make anyone addicted... .

But we both have an "exit barrier" - him in form of abandonment fear, me in the form of something similar too (maybe also abandonment fear, maybe indeed addiction).

[AnnaK]

the last remark was re you being in the states

So do you think he is more addicted to you or vice versa ?

Apart from "exit barrier", we have developed a nice method to stop talking for 1-2 months in case of grave crisis, then retake it from the point where we stopped without any explanations ("are you back?" - "I am back" - "okay fine"

It serves as a safety valve in times of bad crisis (although I suppose he does switch supplies during this time)

[SlyQQ]

Seems like you have got it all pretty worked out you are going to have lots of blow ups but know how to handle them the relationship is a bit dagerous but that is part of the attraction and you have fairly realistic expectations e.g. you know he is going to cheat on you but your "boundary" is not to flaunt it infront of you the catch 22 is your boundries will always be tested because that is what spices up your relationship would you cheat on him ? an how do you think he would react if he caught you cheating?

[AnnaK]

Seems like you have got it all pretty worked out you are going to have lots of blow ups but

know how to handle them the relationship is a bit dagerous but that is part of the attraction

and you have fairly realistic expectations e.g. you know he is going to cheat on you but your

"boundary" is not to flaunt it infront of you the catch 22 is your boundries will always be

tested because that is what spices up your relationship would you cheat on him ? an how do you think he

would react if he caught you cheating?

Most probably I won't cheat.

It creates me a lot of stress to have multiple men chasing after me.

Why should I punish myself just to spite him?

In fact I tried to cheat, kissed someone, told him, it made him almost insane to know that next weekend I am going to go full-way, but then I reconsidered and changed the plan. I am still trying to get rid of the guy, although I told him from start that it was just a plan to spite my bf.

[AnnaK]

your "boundary" is not to flaunt it infront of you the catch 22 is your boundries will always be

tested because that is what spices up your relationship

Well, let's spice it up then The last night before my departure has turned out quite impressive for all participants without any serious harm done (in just a week, everyone was just fine).

I can be creative  ... .such as in response to being called a b___ blah blah I started to recite a very good poem in my native language with a lot of emotional expression ... .I like good poetry better than cursing, so why not?

[SlyQQ]

Cursing is soo limited but sounds like you should brush up on your insults and be creative

e.g. your behaving like a guttersnipe stop running round after girls like a headless chicken etc it might even give him pause  what was the poem ?

[AnnaK]

Cursing is soo limited but sounds like you should brush up on your insults and be  creative

e.g.

your behaving like a guttersnipe

stop running round after girls like a headless chicken etc

it might even give him pause

 what was the poem ?

It was in Russian. In India nobody understood it anyway

See, I am quite shy... .and i still don't like insulting people... .for they may take offence... .blush

Anyway, in crazy house being crazy is socially acceptable behaviour

[SlyQQ]

Somehow i never pictured you as the blushing kind A Russian no wonder you dont like the cold i was going to have a real hard time guessing that one

[AnnaK]

Somehow i never pictured you as the blushing kind

A Russian no wonder you dont like the cold i was

going to have a real hard time guessing that one

I don't blush. Still I can't help thinking that it's impolite to insult people ... .although obviously, when the guy is wandering around all drunk and two of his girlfriends are sitting sober in his room staring at him and each other, the rules of acceptable may be somewhat different.

I would say, that after we somehow get into this kind of situation - anything goes.

[SlyQQ]

Damn I should have just looked at your name Anna Russian of course there is no excuse for bad manners though i admire your integrity

[Rapt Reader]

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