The relationship is toxic and I can't let go - part 1

[Depression = 72% of members]

So my ex gf wants to go to the cinema on Sunday as friends. Not sure whether to agree to that or not. I don’t want to just be friends but then again she did say that before we went on holiday and we ended up sleeping together. Should I say yes?

[RomanticFool]

So my ex gf wants to go to the cinema on Sunday as friends. Not sure whether to agree to that or not. I don’t want to just be friends but then again she did say that before we went on holiday and we ended up sleeping together. Should I say yes?

[Skip]

What would be your point in attending?
What is the downside of attending?

What would be your point in not going?
What is the downside of not going?

[ct21218]

The real question is do you want to stay stuck in this dysfunctional pattern or do you want to grow up and have healthy relationships?  Getting what you want in the moment delays your progress to a more stable life.  It depends on what is more important to you.

[Gemsforeyes]

Hey RF-

You are allowed to kindly decline the invitation and tell her that you are working on yourself.  You can tell her that you’ve come to realize that there are things about YOUR behavior that may have contributed to conflict within the relationship and you want to get a handle on those, so that things can improve between you - whether as friends or lovers.

Can you do that for you?

Don’t you think it’s time?

You do not always have to say yes to an invitation, because that one encounter may drag you back to five weeks ago.  Nothing changes until something changes.  You know this, RF.

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[RomanticFool]

What would be your point in attending?
What is the downside of attending?

The point in attending would be to see her. I miss her very much. The downside to attending would be that she might have been meeting other men and she is covering herself by saying she wants to just be friends. On the other hand, I doubt she would go to the cinema with me if she was seeing other men, though I can't be sure either way. She did say that she wanted to go on holiday as just friends and we ended up being very close on that break. It's probably just her fear talking and she may be worried I'm going to overwhelm her with an emotional hug and kiss as I have done in the past. I intend to be much cooler and less emotional this time.

What would be your point in not going?
What is the downside of not going?

The only point I can see in not going is that she is trying to friend zone me. I don't want to just be friends and perhaps I shouldn't agree to something I don't want. When she said a similar thing about our holiday, I refused to accept it and said we are more than just friends. I told her that doesn't mean we have to sleep together if she didn't want to, which we did anyway. The downside of not going is that I wouldn't see her and in all likelihood it's just a fear based control mechanism aimed at protecting herself.

[RomanticFool]

The real question is do you want to stay stuck in this dysfunctional pattern or do you want to grow up and have healthy relationships?  Getting what you want in the moment delays your progress to a more stable life.  It depends on what is more important to you.

I love her. If there is any chance at all that the relationship could work if I behave in a less needy way, that may be a good thing. Whether I could keep it up is the issue.

You are allowed to kindly decline the invitation and tell her that you are working on yourself.  You can tell her that you’ve come to realize that there are things about YOUR behavior that may have contributed to conflict within the relationship and you want to get a handle on those, so that things can improve between you - whether as friends or lovers. Can you do that for you? Don’t you think it’s time?

Or I could tell her that face to face, which is what I would prefer. I could easily say that I can't go but I know I will then be kicking myself and pining for her. I'm miserable without her. I think she's frightened of meeting up again. Perhaps discretion is the better part of valour. She needs to feel safe so maybe I should agree to go as friends - for one night only.

You do not always have to say yes to an invitation, because that one encounter may drag you back to five weeks ago.  Nothing changes until something changes.  You know this, RF.

This is true and I am worried about us arguing and me going back to a bad place. I would have to exude calm and restraint to have any chance of not being triggered. She does like to provoke.

[Skip]

Would you file for divorce before the weekend?

[ct21218]

You said you love her but she wants to go as friends?  This has zero chance of going well.  You may get to sleep with her but you will be back to the same games.  You can't love someone as be their friend hoping that you both get well. 

You seem to have a hard time being alone.  If you can't be healthy alone, you cannot be healthy with another.  Also healthy people don't provoke one another.

[gizmocasci]

you're ultimately going to do what you want, but if you want to heal, you're going to have to decline. we can choose to unconditionally love someone from far away. yes you may love her, but why continue to put yourself through the abuse? love yourself first, and the rest will fall into place (not with her.)

best of luck

[Mutt]

If there is any chance at all that the relationship could work if I behave in a less needy way, that may be a good thing. Whether I could keep it up is the issue.

You can keep trying to not be needy until you get used to it and it becomes automatic. It takes practice. It’s not easy.

Or I could tell her that face to face, which is what I would prefer. I could easily say that I can't go but I know I will then be kicking myself and pining for her. I'm miserable without her.

A healthy r/s is dependency and being independent, together you have interdependence.

To become less needy you have to give the other person space and find things to do to fill up that time - independence.

Spend time with other people spread it around, take up a hobby, take a class, get a gym membership etc but don’t give yourself solely to one person - you’re giving your control to your ex.

The power shifts in a r/s some days your SO has more than you  do and vice versa but it balances out you don’t want to have it unbalanced by giving all of your power away.

[Vincenta]

Oh dear RF.
Please, not again.

Have you really read the hundreds of the excellent and empathetic advices provided to you during the last 18 months or so ( at least)?

What does your T say to this?


IMHO - I would never go to cinema as ‘ friends’ with a BPD after couple weeks break only,  without a) wanting to get her/ him back or b) telling that unfortunately the relationship is over; over and out.
In your case : is it option A or B.

[CryWolf]

The real question is do you want to stay stuck in this dysfunctional pattern or do you want to grow up and have healthy relationships?  Getting what you want in the moment delays your progress to a more stable life.  It depends on what is more important to you.

pretty blunt and honest. ^

We tend to go based off emotions in the very moment and hope for the best for later. My t, reminds me that my initial goal is healthier/better relationships in life.

What is your "end goal" here?

[RomanticFool]

You said you love her but she wants to go as friends?  This has zero chance of going well.  You may get to sleep with her but you will be back to the same games.  You can't love someone as be their friend hoping that you both get well. 

She said the same thing when we went on holiday and we ended up having a wonderful time. Mind you I didn't accept those terms for the holiday and I won't here either. I will say that we will always be more than that as far as I am concerned. That doesn't mean we are going to end up sleeping together either. I also want to know if she has been dating other people. If she has then I won't go anyway.

You seem to have a hard time being alone.  If you can't be healthy alone, you cannot be healthy with another.  Also healthy people don't provoke one another.

I have had a hard time not seeing my ex. That's not the same thing as having a hard time being alone. I spend alot of time in my own company and always have.I know how to be alone. However, I have missed this woman terribly. The issue is whether it is reciprocated or not. Once we get past her BPDish behaviour, I may discover that it is requited but her defence mechanisms are so pronounced that it's hard to tell. You are right about the provocation aspect. She does far more of the provoking I can assure you.

[RomanticFool]

you're ultimately going to do what you want, but if you want to heal, you're going to have to decline. we can choose to unconditionally love someone from far away. yes you may love her, but why continue to put yourself through the abuse? love yourself first, and the rest will fall into place (not with her.)

I do love myself. I think becoming involved with somebody abusive doesn't always equate to not loving oneself. Indeed, according to the advice I have been getting on here, there are things I could have done to make it less abusive and toxic. However, your point about why would I continue to put myself through the abuse is the issue for me. Is the behaviour a result of mental illness for her, or is it fear based and does she want to ultimately want a relationship with me. Those are the issues and perhaps I need to ask her those questions.

[RomanticFool]

You can keep trying to not be needy until you get used to it and it becomes automatic. It takes practice. It’s not easy.

Yes, but is it who I really am? Is it simply people pleasing and not being true to myself?

A healthy r/s is dependency and being independent, together you have interdependence.

To become less needy you have to give the other person space and find things to do to fill up that time - independence.

Spend time with other people spread it around, take up a hobby, take a class, get a gym membership etc but don’t give yourself solely to one person - you’re giving your control to your ex.

The power shifts in a r/s some days your SO has more than you  do and vice versa but it balances out you don’t want to have it unbalanced by giving all of your power away.

I have a very full life at the moment due to my work. When the relationship first started it was her that wanted to spend all of her time with me and vice versa. It is her that has changed this over a period of time. She seems to be all or nothing. Had we been able to spend more time together when I was married, this situation may have evolved more healthily and she wouldn't have become independent as a way of dealing with her own unhappiness. I have to accept that I have contributed to her unhappiness due to being married, engaging in push/pull behaviour and not being around enough. While I don't want to give her all the power, is agreeing to be her friend for one night at the cinema going to do any  harm, or is it going to be the basis of a healthier reconnection? That is the question I am weighing up.

[RomanticFool]

Oh dear RF.
Please, not again.

Have you really read the hundreds of the excellent and empathetic advices provided to you during the last 18 months or so ( at least)?

What does your T say to this?


IMHO - I would never go to cinema as ‘ friends’ with a BPD after couple weeks break only,  without a) wanting to get her/ him back or b) telling that unfortunately the relationship is over; over and out.
In your case : is it option A or B.

Yes, I've read every word of every piece of advice here. I've been coming on this website for a few years now and it has made a huge difference in my thinking and behaviour. So while you think here we go again, on this occasion I am seeking advice and counsel BEFORE I react to her email. That is the key for me. Think before reacting.

I don't have a T as they are expensive.

Of course I want to get her back. That's the whole point in going. I would not go if the relationship was over, there would be no point.

[RomanticFool]

pretty blunt and honest.  

We tend to go based off emotions in the very moment and hope for the best for later. My t, reminds me that my initial goal is healthier/better relationships in life.

What is your "end goal" here?

Honest is good. I will also be honest back as I have been above.

Trying not to go off on my emotions is precisely why I am seeking advice. I do want healthier relationships.

My goal is a healthier relationship with her. That doesn't mean necessarily even having a love relationship with her. It just means that we are not screaming blue murder at each other. She wants to go with me to the cinema. As several wise people have told me on here, what a BPD says is often not the issue, it is their behaviour. The day she rode past me on her bicycle without stopping, I fell a little bit out of love with her. However, I still want this woman in my life in some capacity at the moment, that may change based on how Sunday goes but I don't think she would be going to the cinema with me if she didn't want to spend time with me. So whatever she says, her behaviour suggests that she is still interested in a relationship. I am too if I can get past her defences.

[ColdKnight]

And if you accept and she flakes? Are you prepared for that?

Have you thought about the possibility of her doing that?

[ct21218]

I think you knew what you were going to do before you even posted here.

You say you want a healthy relationship with her, but that is simply not possible because neither of you are healthy.  The only way for you to have healthy relationships is to move forward with the divorce, stay single for a period of time, and work on your issues.  If you were healthy yourself:

1. You wouldn't put up with her mixed messages and push/pull and
2. You wouldn't be attracted to her because of her behavior

[RomanticFool]

Oh yea of little faith...Please read the email exchange below.

Also please be gentle with me. I am suffering excruciating pain from this break up. It feels very raw and I am liable to go to a dark place if people come wading in with how invalidating I am towards her. All I am trying to do is be honest with her.

Her: I’d love to see the Almodovar film with you.

Me: Love to see the Almodovar with you too. Let me know when you’re about.

Her: Sunday is good.

Me: Ok, let’s do Sunday.

Her: Evening. And only on the condition as friends.

Me: We’re not just friends. We are lovers. It would be disingenuous of me to say that we are just friends when a month ago we were on holiday making love every day. I don't want to just be your friend. I’m in love with you.

Her: We were lovers. I do not wish to go back to the volatile relationship we had.
I am sorry you can’t accept that. You have cut off a friendship before it began. If you can’t respect my decision  that then I can’t see you.

Me: We were still lovers a few weeks ago. I don’t want to be just your friend. Nor do I want a volatile relationship. I respect you and any decision you make but I’m not going to pretend to just be friends when we have been far more than that.

Her: So you are demanding to see me as a lover? Your arrogance is phenomenal. I have no desire to see you at all now.

Me: I’m not making any demands at all. The decision is yours. I just can’t sit next to you in the cinema and not want to hold your hand and kiss you. I’m sorry if you find that abhorrent.

Her: You should respect a woman when she tells you she does not wish to be touched. It is frightening that you see it as a right because we have been intimate in the past. I don't wish to have someone like you in my life anymore. I tried to offer you the hand of friendship and you didn't respect it. Please respect my decision and don't contact me again.

Me: I do respect your decision and because you don’t want a loving relationship with me I am saying that I can’t be platonic friends with you. I would never touch you uninvited and you know it. The fact that you don’t miss me speaks volumes of where your head is at and I will grant your wish and leave you alone.

A few weeks ago we were making out on the beach and making love every day. Being sexual with each other was beautiful and wonderful in our relationship.  I don’t feel entitled to any kind of physical relationship with you, nor do I feel that I have a right to your body and to touch you. I just feel grief for the loss of such a wonderful relationship because the physical side for me was an expression of the great love I feel for you.

Prior to going on holiday you made the same argument about only going as friends and I told you then that I considered us more than friends. When we were away you loved me in the way we always had. Please don’t make this some kind of feminist issue, this is about two people who had a great love for each other. I grieve the ending of the relationship as it was. I don't demand anything from you. Please understand that it is not possible for me to go out with you as a platonic friend.

[ct21218]

Great job on telling her how you feel.  Can you respect her wishes and not contact her again?

[RomanticFool]

Yes I can and I will.

[RomanticFool]

I've been looking through my old posts in order to glean words of wisdom and I found this:

I think the fantasy of us ending up together has fuelled this relationship for years. We are both married but the fantasy existed mainly in my head. She never gave me any reason to think we would end up together, quite the opposite. I think you told me before that BPD relationships have a 99% failure rate. That statistic has sobered me up about this relationship!

Is this still true? 99% of BPD relationships end in failure?

[Mutt]

I just want to offer a piece of advice for the future, I would suggest to not JADE.

I do think that you did the right thing if you don’t want a friendship it sounds like she wants the best of both worlds and you can say that you want no part of it, I’ll just be over here if you change your mind.

I would not feel guilty when she said that you are not accepting her friendship to a degree she is looking after her own needs.

[RomanticFool]

I just want to offer a piece of advice for the future, I would suggest to not JADE.

So what should I have said?

I do think that you did the right thing if you don’t want a friendship it sounds like she wants the best of both worlds and you can say that you want no part of it, I’ll just be over here if you change your mind.

Which is why I suspected that she has met somebody else. By telling me that we are friends it means I can't object to anything she's been doing the last five weeks. I want no part of that madness. If she thinks I am going to be friends with her when we have had all that time apart and she hasn't shown me anything other than contempt with the possibility of having someone else on the go, she really doesn't know me at all.

On the other hand, she said exactly the same before we went on holiday together and it may just be fear or making me jump through her hoops again. She is very manipulative and conniving. I don't like her much as a person right now. She shows no empathy or sensitivity towards my grief and loss. Conversely she shows no sign of feeling any sense of grief and loss herself. Quite insulting really.

I would not feel guilty when she said that you are not accepting her friendship to a degree she is looking after her own needs.

Had she shown me a modicum of empathy I may have had some compassion for her perspective ie "I no longer love him but I respect him so much I'd love to stay friends." Not that I would have stayed friends but I would have shown understanding towards her perspective. No, this is a woman who shows me nothing but contempt. She is out of my life now. Unless she decides to contact me.

[RomanticFool]

Can I expect that she will make contact again or is this it now do people think?

[ct21218]

You are giving her all the power in this situation.  I think she probably will reach out if none of her current conquests work out, but that shouldn't matter.  You should be making decisions on what is best for you, not be available at her whim.

In your email you did just try justify your point of view by bringing up the vacation.  You cannot force someone to see things your way.  She made her choice and it wasn't what you want.  I would suggest you move on.

[RomanticFool]

You are giving her all the power in this situation.  I think she probably will reach out if none of her current conquests work out, but that shouldn't matter.  You should be making decisions on what is best for you, not be available at her whim.

Not at all. What I've actually done is set a very firm boundary. I'm not convinced she has other conquests lined up. I fear it but I don't know for certain. Mutt also just said the following:

I do think that you did the right thing if you don’t want a friendship it sounds like she wants the best of both worlds and you can say that you want no part of it, I’ll just be over here if you change your mind.

That is laying down a boundary. I'm not playing power games. I never have done. I'm simply telling her how I feel. If that puts her off then so be it. She can do nothing more to hurt me than what she already has anyway.

In your email you did just try justify your point of view by bringing up the vacation.  You cannot force someone to see things your way.  She made her choice and it wasn't what you want.  I would suggest you move on.

This is an interesting point of view to me. Somehow going on holiday at another person's expense and making love to them every day and then dumping them soon after doesn't seem to inspire any disapproval in society these days. To me it's a heartless thing to do but then again I'm guilty of being heartless too so maybe I deserve everything I get.

[Mutt]

Her: I’d love to see the Almodovar film with you.

Me: Love to see the Almodovar with you too. Let me know when you’re about.

Her: Sunday is good.

Me: Ok, let’s do Sunday.

Her: Evening. And only on the condition as friends.

Me: We’re not just friends. We are lovers. It would be disingenuous of me to say that we are just friends when a month ago we were on holiday making love every day. I don't want to just be your friend. I’m in love with you.

Her: We were lovers. I do not wish to go back to the volatile relationship we had.
I am sorry you can’t accept that. You have cut off a friendship before it began. If you can’t respect my decision  that then I can’t see you.

Me: We were still lovers a few weeks ago. I don’t want to be just your friend. Nor do I want a volatile relationship. I respect you and any decision you make but I’m not going to pretend to just be friends when we have been far more than that.

Her: So you are demanding to see me as a lover? Your arrogance is phenomenal. I have no desire to see you at all now.

Me: I’m not making any demands at all. The decision is yours. I just can’t sit next to you in the cinema and not want to hold your hand and kiss you. I’m sorry if you find that abhorrent.

Her: You should respect a woman when she tells you she does not wish to be touched. It is frightening that you see it as a right because we have been intimate in the past. I don't wish to have someone like you in my life anymore. I tried to offer you the hand of friendship and you didn't respect it. Please respect my decision and don't contact me again.

Me: I do respect your decision and because you don’t want a loving relationship with me I am saying that I can’t be platonic friends with you. I would never touch you uninvited and you know it. The fact that you don’t miss me speaks volumes of where your head is at and I will grant your wish and leave you alone.

A few weeks ago we were making out on the beach and making love every day. Being sexual with each other was beautiful and wonderful in our relationship.  I don’t feel entitled to any kind of physical relationship with you, nor do I feel that I have a right to your body and to touch you. I just feel grief for the loss of such a wonderful relationship because the physical side for me was an expression of the great love I feel for you.

Prior to going on holiday you made the same argument about only going as friends and I told you then that I considered us more than friends. When we were away you loved me in the way we always had. Please don’t make this some kind of feminist issue, this is about two people who had a great love for each other. I grieve the ending of the relationship as it was. I don't demand anything from you. Please understand that it is not possible for me to go out with you as a platonic friend.

Just getting back to you about what parts I think are JADE, I highlighted the parts that I think that you could have said as a response with not JADE'ing in mind, this is after the fact so it doesn't matter but to minimize conflict with a person that has a high conflict personality and even just non's in general you don't have to justify yourself. I suggest to say things once maybe twice and beyond that just let your words stand and speak for themselves.

As you probably already know JADE stands for Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain which is something that will have a conversation spiral if you do it with a pwBPD but like I said my gf is a non and sometimes I'm guilty of going into justifying mode with my non gf but usually I don't justify with my exuBPDw because it makes me a much larger target if I give her so much to use against me but keep in mind in general as an adult you don't have to justify yourself.

Again if it were me in your shoes I would have just said the highlighted parts and left it at that maybe other members will see it differently though and add a little bit more.

[ct21218]

I'm not saying her behavior is ok at all.  I personally would not want to be with someone who treated me that way.  She has shown you who she is and that's both good and bad.  I would never do what she did and I don't think it's a reflection of society, but it's a reflection of how ill she is.  I would never accept that sort of treatment.  That's why it was suggested you work on yourself, as you seem to keep finding yourself in these situations.

[RomanticFool]

I'm not saying her behavior is ok at all.  I personally would not want to be with someone who treated me that way.  She has shown you who she is and that's both good and bad.  I would never do what she did and I don't think it's a reflection of society, but it's a reflection of how ill she is.  I would never accept that sort of treatment.  That's why it was suggested you work on yourself, as you seem to keep finding yourself in these situations.

Yes you are right. I have allowed her to run roughshod over my boundaries but I think I was so keen to have a physical relationship her that I suspended my principles in favour of all the god things in the relationship at the beginning. When she started physically attacking me I did try to leave the relationship but she was so distraught and in emotional pain that I couldn’t bear to walk away. Now that the shoe is on the other foot she shows no such empathy at all. I should never have allowed her to treat me the way she did. On some level I thought that I was lucky to have found this beautiful, intelligent and sexy woman that I would have walked on hot coals for her. Co-dependent behaviour which I need to examine.

[RomanticFool]

.Would you file for divorce before the weekend?     

My wife is coming over on Sunday as she wants to discuss a divorce. She was very loving and said ‘You know I would never do anything to hurt you or make life difficult. I don’t deserve her. I feel absolutely awful and i miss her but breaking up is the right thing to do.

[Mutt]

My wife is coming over on Sunday as she wants to discuss a divorce. She was very loving and said ‘You know I would never do anything to hurt you or make life difficult. I don’t deserve her. I feel absolutely awful and i miss her

Don’t measure your self worth with someone else. It doesn’t mean that you have less value than her.

[RomanticFool]

I guess it’s the guilt talking now. Had I met the AA lady now in my current circumstances I’d have been free to have a real relationship with her. I wonder how long it would have lasted?

[ct21218]

I don't think it was right to do what you did while still in a marriage, but I think it would have played out in a similar manner.  If she were healthy, it would have been against her values to pursue a relationship with with you. When I was very young, a man lied to me about his marriage status and living situation.  I would bring it up in arguments all the time, but I stayed.  I was only 20 back then.  19 years later, I simply would have walked out at the first lie.

[Harri]

This thread reached the post limit and has been locked and split.  Part 2 is here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=339234

Thank you