How to tell the difference between enabling and being a supportive spouse

[OffRoad]

I am not trying to be difficult with this (maybe I am to a degree). If I keep quiet, it is enabling. If I communicate it and talk about it, it isn't enabling? I have almost 17 years worth of alternating between talking until I am blue in the face, keeping quiet, throwing fits, and acting BPD myself at times just to communicate what it is that is bugging me.

BBM: I'm curious, how is communicating and talking about it being enabling? Could you give me an instance where it would be enabling? (with the exception of telling them to go ahead an do whatever behavior when it's a problem, of course.)

And who has labeled you as a co-dependent enabler? Was it just the one conversation with your friend?

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

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[123Phoebe]

VOC, labels are hard to hear and hard to wear.  There is no doubt that I have codependent tendencies.  Call me a caregiver personality... .  Oh well!  It's when it interferes with life's goals that it becomes a problem.  When I take other people's problems on as my own, to the detriment of my own life.  If I'm more concerned about them, than myself.  If I'm over involved in their business.  If I lose sleep at night worrying about them.  If I let them forge past my boundaries.  If I forego my values in lieu of their's... .  And then resent the hell out of them.  That sort of thing.

Do any of those things pertain to you?

[getting_better]

Staying silent when I am troubled is enabling her behavior.

Is it? Bringing something up and having it turn into a fight where you aren't going to be heard isn't any more productive than keeping quiet.

Again, you've struck at the heart of it.  With BPD it absolutely will turn into a raging argument when you bring it up and communicate it.  I - like so many of us on these boards - learned to just keep quiet and give the 'soft answer to turn away wrath' as the Proverb states.  I'm sure you know what I mean.  In my experience staying silent or backing down to avoid the argument has left me (after 23 years) feeling weak and lacking confidence in myself.  I believe it erodes a person and enables the pwBPD.  I am separated now and seeking divorce, and I firmly believe that I would have been here many years earlier and perhaps have more happy years in front of me.  

I read Dr. Sharri Manning's "Loving Someone with Borderline Personality Disorder" and learned validation skills, opposite action, etc. (lots of DBT skills) that actually do work.  :)uring our separation these last 10 months I've been able to use those skills many times, and they really are effective!  I believe now that it is possible to have a productive, honest conversation with a pwBPD using the right skillset.  I've made the choice to end the relationship, but I admire and respect those who have the energy to stick with it.  

Honest, open communication where I check my own motives and confirm that I am acting from a place of pure intent - no anger, self-pity, arrogance, etc. means I am not enabling her.  Otherwise, I am.

[Panda39]

Hi Vortex

I didn't know if you all checked this out so I'm just throwing it out there.

https://bpdfamily.com/content/codependency-codependent-relationships

There is also a book called "Codependent No More" by Melody Beattie that you might want to checkout.

I was married to an alcoholic and in some ways I think the codependence was easier to see because it was an alcohol problem vs a mental health issue.  It took me a couple of years into my marriage to understand my husband was an alcoholic... .he was functional could hold down a job but every night out came the 12-pack.  I didn't like the drinking, but I was a rescuer, a caretaker, and he was my husband.  I begged, I pleaded, I cajoled, I argued, I threatened and I dumped all the beer I found in the house down the sink. My husband was in denial so the drinking continued.

I was thinking about leaving and then I got pregnant. I was in a troubled marriage but I didn't become codependent until I decided to stay in my troubled marriage because with a new baby and had become financially dependent. In reality I was also getting other things out of this arrangement. I was getting boost to my poor self esteem because he had the problem not me I was a "better" person than he was, I was the rescuer and caretaker and the better parent, I was the one that managed/controlled everything and I could set aside my needs for the needs of my husband and the needs of my son... .I was so self sacrificing  .  Rescuer, caretaker, self sacrificing parent all sound great but not if done for the wrong reasons. Putting my husband down to lift myself up.

I depended on his paycheck and feelings of artificial self worth and he depended on my caretaking and enabling because eventually I no longer tried to stop the drinking but I did hide our problems from others. The drinking continued, the unhappiness continued, the marriage was slowly dying and emotionally so was I.  Because I was hiding my husband's drinking I was withdrawing from my social life, my family and becoming depressed... .I was disappearing.


From Wikipedia (Describes a lot of what I was doing)... .

Codependent relationships are a type of dysfunctional helping relationship where one person supports or enables another person’s addiction, poor mental health, immaturity, irresponsibility, or under-achievement. Among the core characteristics of codependency, the most common theme is an excessive reliance on other people for approval and identity... .

Codependency has been referred to as the disease of a lost self. Codependent relationships are marked by intimacy problems, dependency, control (including caretaking) denial, dysfunctional communication and boundaries, and high reactivity. Often, there is imbalance, so one person is abusive or in control or supports or enables another person’s addiction, poor mental health, immaturity, irresponsibility, or under-achievement. Some codependents often find themselves in relationships where their primary role is that of rescuer, supporter, and confidante. These helper types are often dependent on the other person's poor functioning to satisfy their own emotional needs. Many codependents place a lower priority on their own needs, while being excessively preoccupied with the needs of others. Codependency can occur in any type of relationship, including family, work, friendship, and also romantic, peer or community relationships.

Vortex I don't think you were showing co-dependent behavior in the example you gave at the beginning of this thread.  At that time (like me at the beginning of my marriage) you did not know there was a problem.  Your husband was doing something you didn't like but you didn't recognize it as the problem it would become later in your marriage.

I hope I'm making sense or my post could be as clear as mud! 

[Crumbling]

I've really struggled with this too, Vee.  I had a discussion with livedandlearned in the Members Lounge about this very thing.  Here it is, hope it helps.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=273293.msg12599771#msg12599771

I also had the same idea as Phoebe... .looking at why you are staying for the children.  I made the choice to leave my physically abusive ex when my kids were only not quite three and one.  I was okay in the r/s until he's violent ways were turned onto our boy.  That was it.  Game over.  I left.

I carried guilt for 'making their father leave' when they were both so young, for a long time.  Looking back 20yrs later, there was no reason for me to carry that guilt.  I did the best I could under the circumstances we were in, and my kids understand that and love me for protecting them.  Life isn't a perfect dance, and as a parent, there's nothing you can do to make it one.  Most people get this, even kids.  But as a parent, it is our goal, right, to make everything as perfect and comfortable for them as possible.  The reality is it isn't possible, and it's crazy making to try.

Can your H not develop a better r/s with his children while the two of you are apart?  What does he bring to the development of the children that requires you to be under the same roof?  Not that I think you should leave, I'd never say that to anyone.  But, maybe really examining this aspect of your decision will help you live with it better.

blessings,

c.

[formflier]

 

VOC,

I'm a bit late to the thread... .and in a bit of a feisty mood... .  I like the discussions we have about things.

I'm going to take a stand and ... .IMO... .you were not an enabler... .at all with the going back to bed thing.

If you had handed him the laptop... .I think that would qualify as enabling.  If you had done something else "actively"... .to help him get to porn... .I would feel comfortable saying you were an "enabler"

In the drinking world... .handing over a drink to someone is enabling.  If you find a bottle in their house... .and don't pour it out... .are you an enabler?  I think not.  Although I might still suggest you pour it out... .I don't think you "have to" to avoid the label.

Thoughts?  Thanks for the topic... .I need to read it again... .

FF

[formflier]

 

VOC,

Hey... .might be a different thread... .but I wonder what "advice" you would give yourself... .if you could go back in time.

Goal would be to give advice to help the r/s... .I realize "help" is broad... .kinda intentional... .

Up to the challenge?

FF

[vortex of confusion]

Thanks for the link Crumbling!

I also had the same idea as Phoebe... .looking at why you are staying for the children.  I made the choice to leave my physically abusive ex when my kids were only not quite three and one.  I was okay in the r/s until he's violent ways were turned onto our boy.  That was it.  Game over.  I left.

Abuse is my deal breaker. If he were to physically abuse one of the kids, he would be out on behind. He has even gotten way better about being more validating towards the kids. It is kind of amazing to see the transformation. When I used to try to take a nap or do something for myself, he would yell at the kids and tell him, "Leave mom alone or she will get mad." He made me out to be a big fat meany. The kids didn't listen to him or believe him because they trusted that I could be bothered and would help them and everything would be okay. They knew that the crap he was saying was just that, empty crap. Now, he tells them, "Mom needs a nap. Let's work together to help mom get some sleep." They will listen to that and will respond by going to him if they need anything.

As long as he is making progress with the kids, I don't want to do anything about leaving. A lot of the progress he is making with them is due to the fact that we all live in the same house together. The kids see him being nicer to me and them and they are nicer to him in turn. I feel like leaving would set a lot of this progress back. I think it was last summer when I got to a point where I decided that I was going to leave come hell or high water. I talked to the kids and I had found a way out. It upset the kids really bad. It made one or two of them physically ill. They didn't start feeling better until I backed off the idea and said that we weren't leaving.

Can your H not develop a better r/s with his children while the two of you are apart?  What does he bring to the development of the children that requires you to be under the same roof?  Not that I think you should leave, I'd never say that to anyone.  But, maybe really examining this aspect of your decision will help you live with it better.

It is about having access. I think that the small stuff is what makes the biggest difference. It is him bringing home dinner from time to time. It is him making small amends to the kids by showing more of an interest in what they are doing. It is the little conversations that they have on the spur of the moment when I am doing other stuff. It is being able to wake him up on occasion when they need something in the middle of the night. If he was living away from the kids, there would be so many lost opportunities for him to improve the relationship. And, I do know that he has a tendency for things to be out of sight out of mind. If he lived in a separate house, he wouldn't have the motivation to work on things with the kids. What would the motivation be? Plus, it would make my life a heck of a lot more difficult. Even if he is emotionally absent a lot of the times, he is still a great house boy. I know that sounds really bad. If we need something, he is great at getting it. He can do store runs and get little stuff for the kids. One of the girls asked him for help with something one time. He tried to tell her "No, you can do it yourself." She responded, "I know I can do it for myself. I want you to do it for me/help me because I want your attention." Those little moments wouldn't be possible if one of us left. They might still be possible but they sure as heck wouldn't be able to happen as often.

I saw one of the best definitions of codependency on a FB meme. It went something along the lines of "Codependency is caring more about somebody else's life and problems than they do." I tried to verify and found this: "Codependency is driven by the agreement that I will work harder on your problem and your life than you do."

[vortex of confusion]

If you had handed him the laptop... .I think that would qualify as enabling.  If you had done something else "actively"... .to help him get to porn... .I would feel comfortable saying you were an "enabler"

I think I was 23 or 24 at the time and I had never even heard of sex addiction or porn addiction. I didn't know such a thing existed. I remember having conversations with him that went something along the lines of, "Hey, I get it. You are guy. Guys sometimes look at porn. Big friggin' deal. What I have a problem with is not getting enough attention. If you want to look at porn, let's do it together and try to spice things up." This was before I knew anything about sex addiction or anything of the sort. Heck, this was stuff that NOBODY talked about.

I will never forget the time that I brought it up with my mother in law. I don't remember how it came up exactly. When I told her about the porn stuff, she said, "Oh, he dad was just like that. It didn't bother me though because that meant that he left me alone." 

In the drinking world... .handing over a drink to someone is enabling.  If you find a bottle in their house... .and don't pour it out... .are you an enabler?  I think not.  Although I might still suggest you pour it out... .I don't think you "have to" to avoid the label.

After he lost his job because of looking at porn, I went on a crusade against having that stuff in my house at all. I asked him every single friggin' day for years.

I will admit that I am really triggered by the whole codependent enabler thing. I can see where I have done that in specific situations. With my husband, all of the stuff that I have done has been out of pure ignorance. Sex addiction isn't something people talk about openly. Also, I get caught up on the whole notion of what a marriage is supposed to be. I don't feel like I have been codependent or enabling with my husband. If feel like I have tried to live out what I thought a marriage should be. How do you reconcile the differences in two people's definition/idea of marriage? My husband paid lip service to it but didn't actually live it. I feel like I was living my values and being steadfast even though he wasn't living the values that he claimed to have.

[vortex of confusion]

Hey... .might be a different thread... .but I wonder what "advice" you would give yourself... .if you could go back in time.

Goal would be to give advice to help the r/s... .I realize "help" is broad... .kinda intentional... .

Up to the challenge?

Let's see if I can think of what advice I would give myself. . .realistically!

I would tell myself to ask myself the following questions:

What is your problem with porn? Are you making a big deal out of nothing? A lot of guys look at porn. What is the real issue here?

Have you expressed your concern to your husband? What was his response?

Is there a way that the two of you can come to some kind of agreement about it?

Are you fulfilling your duties as a wife? Have you told him that you are interested in getting more attention in the bedroom?

Are your expectations realistic? Where are you getting your ideas from?

-----------

My responses would be:

I don't have a problem with porn. I have a problem with the fact that he is choosing porn over me. I have a problem with waking up in the morning to find him doing that. I would like for him to stay in bed and cuddle with me or watch TV or something. Instead, he gets up and does his thing. When I bring it up, he says that he doesn't want to bug me and is trying to be considerate of my need for sleep. And, he likes to have alone time in the morning. Even when he was a kid, he didn't like to be bothered in the morning and had his routine. Him being able to do his morning routine was and is very important to him and makes his day go better. I think my expectations are a little bit skewed so I am going to back off of them and deal with my emotions on my own because the problem seems to be a difference of expectations, needs, and wants.

A lot of my ideas are based on the generalization that guys are real horn dogs and wouldn't turn down having relations with a real live female. I was always under the impression that most guys would rather have the real thing rather than just a cheap imitation. I had never been married before and I was rather young and this wasn't a topic that I could openly discuss with anybody.

[MercuryHat]

Interesting topic.

Glad to meet y'all. I'm new here and kind of insecure about jumping into this discussion. Please forgive me if I step on toes. I'm still not sure how y'all do thing 'round here.

(hmmm... .is that enough disclaimers to free me from dealing with big emotional reactions if I inadvertently say something upsetting... .wait a minute. I forgot where I was and which side of the BPD I was talking to!)

Porn - masturbation - physical needs - sex - addiction - My thougths:

Personally I don't like most porn.  I'm a feminist and really don't get turned on by bullsh!t images and roles of women. I don't get that kind of porn and have to work to not judge it. At the same time I accept that porn seems standard for most (if not all) men in our culture. I don't get my knickers in a twist about it.

Masturbation is not always a 2nd place for real live sex with another person. I have a high sex drive. I like to think of myself as a very sex positive person. I am probably more like men in my approach to sex, than I am to other women.

I like sex with my partner. I also like sex with myself.

Sex with my partner is different from sex with myself, in so many ways. Each fills different physical and emotional needs.

Masturbation is the real thing... .it (and I) are not a cheap imitation. I used to (decades ago) find masturbation a sad activity that I did alone and lonely. Now I find it a self loving thing that I enjoy and at times look forward to. I do it just for me. That is part of the gift of it.

Sex addiction is an interesting topic. I think it is a term and concept very rooted in our culture, at this point in time. Our culture is highly sexualized  and at the same time very sex negative. Such a paradox!

Not everyone is monogamous by nature. Yet that is the current default setting in our culture (it wasn't a couple of generations ago. In the 50's and before no men were expected to be monogamous their entire lives, only the women).

People who can't fit into the monogamous ideal are often accused of sex addiction.

People who enjoy a regular endorphin rush of orgasm (self induced or otherwise) are often accused of sex addiction.

People who endure a sex-less marriage are accepted as the norm.

I don't know whether sex addiction exists or not. I am not in any position to comment on it (or on Vortex or anyone else's personal situation). I do wonder tho' how a culture that normalizes sexless marriages, while also normalizing the perpetuation of pornalistic images and roles of women in the mainstream, feels that it is capable of pronouncing anyone a sex addict.



IMHO, one of the keys out of co-dependancy is being responsive to one's own needs.

What are your sexual needs, Vortex? Are they being met? What are you doing about that - in the here and now?

(these questions are for self clarification, if you find them useful. I'm not asking you to answer them here)


These days sex is a topic that anyone can openly discuss... .then again, it is also a can of worms that one must approach carefully when BPD is a dominant force in one's life.


Just my 2 cents

[MercuryHat]

Staying for the kids!

That is what my mother said when her 4 kids begged her to leave our dad (then undx'd Asperger's with major rage)

She stayed for us. And her religion. And because he *needed* her.

Then the kids moved out (as early as we could).

She lost her religion.

He *needs* her even more now, as he ages.

She made her own choice many years ago. If she had left she would have been a great single mother. She would have rocked it. Who knows how that would have changed our (her kids) personalities?

Shoulda, coulda, woulda leads no where.


When I took my then 1 1/2 year old daughter (now 15 years old) and left her father I had a hard time of it. But, I rocked it. I was a great single mother. My daughter is growing into a great person.

She spent 1/2 her time living with her dad (because fairness is important to me, because she needs to know where she comes from, because I needed to work to support us since there was no money coming from him). This 1/2 time - 1/2 time thing gets tired. (she's now doing 3 weeks at one house, 3 weeks at the other)

She misplaces things. She suffers from not have a routine from month to month. It is an imperfect solution.

But, there are no perfect solutions in life. We do the best we can. We live with the consequences.

Regardless of the choice we make (stay or go) our kids are going to suffer/thrive/endure/be changed.

No-one knows what the right choice is in any given circumstance. We (the parent facing the choice) are the ones who have to live with the consequences (our own and our kids) and we do the best (imperfect) that we can.


I have chosen to stay with 6 year old daughter's father. I am quite clear (to myself, he couldn't handle the information) that if he and I didn't have a kid I would be gone.

There are a number of  reasons for me to stay. The most compelling one is that 6y/o suffers from the same emotional craziness (which I now believe to be BPD) as her father. I have for years explained to him that by working on and healing himself he will be able to lead her out of the dark of it. All I can do is set loving but firm limits around her behaviour so that her rages don't cause damage and she is safe while she surfs them out.

He is the one that can learn, then model the way through the darkness.

Whether he will take those opportunities or not is outside of my power.

What is in my power is for me to be here in our home as a grounding/limiting/loving/accepting/validating force in his and her lives. And, for me to model Mama getting her needs met (even tho' I often have to go outside our home to do so).


This is my long winded way of saying - stay or go Vortex. Either way your kids will end up screwed-up just fine.


The trick for me is how do I stay and still get some of my needs met?



Maybe that's the difference between enabling and being supportive - the variable of one's own needs making it into the equation?

[shatterd]

to lightn things up a lil bit,  i said this once in marrige counsling, when she askd this question about enabling and supporting,   


so if she shoots me in the face and takes my wallet   i supported her?

if she shoots me in the leg and sets me on fire, but calls an ambulacne for me   than i enabled her?

yes this is the process for norms to figure this out    im still confused about a meeting we had 4 yrs ago blaaaaaaaaah

[vortex of confusion]

Personally I don't like most porn.  I'm a feminist and really don't get turned on by bullsh!t images and roles of women. I don't get that kind of porn and have to work to not judge it. At the same time I accept that porn seems standard for most (if not all) men in our culture. I don't get my knickers in a twist about it.

I didn't have an issue with the porn itself.

Masturbation is not always a 2nd place for real live sex with another person. I have a high sex drive. I like to think of myself as a very sex positive person. I am probably more like men in my approach to sex, than I am to other women.

I am like this as well. I have always had a pretty high sex drive and would have liked to have enjoyed it with my husband.

Masturbation is the real thing... .it (and I) are not a cheap imitation. I used to (decades ago) find masturbation a sad activity that I did alone and lonely. Now I find it a self loving thing that I enjoy and at times look forward to. I do it just for me. That is part of the gift of it.

I don't really have an opinion about masturbation one way or the other. It doesn't make sense to be in a committed relationship and choose masturbation over your spouse all of the time. If you do it just for you and refuse to share yourself with your partner, then that is problematic in my opinion. If a person prefers to masturbate as a joyful solitary activity and repeatedly leaves the partner out of the equation, then why get married at all? My problem wasn't with the masturbation or the porn. I am not a goody goody that has anything against those activities.

Not everyone is monogamous by nature. Yet that is the current default setting in our culture (it wasn't a couple of generations ago. In the 50's and before no men were expected to be monogamous their entire lives, only the women).

I am aware of this. Have you read "Sex at Dawn"? My husband and I experimented with an open/poly relationship for a while. With or without the extra activities, there was a basic lack of respect for me on his part. I consulted with my poly friends and they agreed that his behavior was not okay. I am all for ethical non-monogamy if both parties agree to it and can do it without being complete jerks to the primary partner.

People who can't fit into the monogamous ideal are often accused of sex addiction.

People who enjoy a regular endorphin rush of orgasm (self induced or otherwise) are often accused of sex addiction.

I have been accused of being a sex addict because I wanted to have sex with my husband. I have been accused of being a sex addict because of my behavior while we experimented with an open marriage. I am NOT a sex addict. My husband is. What sets us apart is the fact that his behavior is compulsive. And, he has a lot of shame about sex. He is not very comfortable with his own sexuality. There are a couple of online tests that ask a series of questions to help one determine whether or not they are sex addicts. A person that doesn't fit the monogamous ideal is NOT a sex addict just as somebody that enjoys sex is NOT a sex addict.

A person that looks at porn at work because he can't resist the temptation is a sex addict. A person that has to go to the bathroom at work to masturbate is probably a sex addict. A sex addict lacks the ability to delay gratification. If they can't get to porn or self pleasure, they will resort to mental fantasies.

What are your sexual needs, Vortex? Are they being met? What are you doing about that - in the here and now?

I am taking a break from worrying about my sexual needs at the moment. They are not very high on my priority list right now. I have bigger fish to fry.  I used to have a lover on the side that my husband knew about and approved of. Things have changed and we are in a bit of a transition period. I am able to delay sexual gratification whether it is with myself or somebody else.

[vortex of confusion]

That is what my mother said when her 4 kids begged her to leave our dad (then undx'd Asperger's with major rage)

If my kids begged me to leave, I would leave without hesitation. My kids have begged me to stay. I almost left a year or so ago and the kids begged me to stay. Their dad can be a pain in the butt at times but he still has a lot of good qualities that they like.

This is my long winded way of saying - stay or go Vortex. Either way your kids will end up screwed-up just fine.

This thread isn't about whether I am staying or going. I have made the choice to stay. I wanted to explore the difference between being supportive and enabling. I value my partner. I have no control over whether or not my partner values me. I have ideas about how I should treat other people. If a person is in a relationship (whether it be a monogamous marriage or a primary or secondary relationship in the context of ethical non-monogamy), I have ideas about MY role in the relationship. If I am living MY values and the other person takes advantage of me or turns into a jerk, that is on them, not me. However, it seems that me living out MY values is being turned into labels such as codependent/enabling/rescuing/etc.

[123Phoebe]

However, it seems that me living out MY values is being turned into labels such as codependent/enabling/rescuing/etc.

I'm admittedly confused.  What values of yours are being questioned and by whom?

Is there more going on here?

[vortex of confusion]

I'm admittedly confused.  What values of yours are being questioned and by whom?

Is there more going on here?

I think I have been the one questioning myself the most.

I recently started a 12 step program for spouses of addicts. It is bringing up a lot of anger and confusing feelings. Some of the things that my sponsor has said have triggered me. I feel like I have supported my spouse and lived out my values of what I think a loving wife should be. Now, I feel like those values are being labeled. If my spouse were to reciprocate and not be a jerk, would MY behaviors still be seen in the same light.

I hope that isn't as clear as mud. 

[123Phoebe]

I'm admittedly confused.  What values of yours are being questioned and by whom?

Is there more going on here?

I think I have been the one questioning myself the most.

I recently started a 12 step program for spouses of addicts. It is bringing up a lot of anger and confusing feelings. Some of the things that my sponsor has said have triggered me. I feel like I have supported my spouse and lived out my values of what I think a loving wife should be. Now, I feel like those values are being labeled. If my spouse were to reciprocate and not be a jerk, would MY behaviors still be seen in the same light.

I hope that isn't as clear as mud.  

If you each held the same values, I don't know if you'd have found this site, then posted about being labeled a codependent/enabling/rescuer

If you're trying to cajole him into holding your values... . Well... .

If you're living out your values and your spouse is a jerk, I think boundaries would be apparent in order to protect your values.  

All I know is that my bf didn't take me seriously until I took myself seriously.  He had nothing to hang his hat on when I wasn't providing the rack.

I value him and our relationship.  My boundaries protect our relationship with respect for him and me.  

Do you respect your husband?

[vortex of confusion]

Do you respect your husband?

Hmmm. . . the short answer is no.

If somebody wants me to elaborate, I can. That is my gut level response without JADEing about it. 

[MercuryHat]

I have been accused of being a sex addict because I wanted to have sex with my husband. I have been accused of being a sex addict because of my behavior while we experimented with an open marriage.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't! Sounds like a lot of what you may be struggling with right now as well. - being labelled or accused of (in this case) being an enabler.

Personally, I think labels suck, unless they are on object. Labels on people never really work except to cause pain.

I have ideas about MY role in the relationship. If I am living MY values and the other person takes advantage of me or turns into a jerk, that is on them, not me.

I agree!

However, it seems that me living out MY values is being turned into labels such as codependent/enabling/rescuing/etc.

Those damned labels again!

Vortex, it sounds to me like you know your own mind. I honour and appreciate that.

It may be that those of us who end up in relationship with BPD spouses are, at times, easily swayed by what others think. And yet, it seems to me (from the voracious reading I've been doing the past few days) that learning to stay strong in our self knowledge is vital to our emotional survival and well being.

I wonder... .do you respect (the opinion of) the person who labelled you with enabling?

Sure they have their own pain they've gone thru (as the spouse of an addict) but they haven't walked any distance in your shoes. Is their opinion worth more than your own, as you look back on the years of you living according to your values.

it sounds to me like a very painful and confusing relationship. Some crossing of the fuzzy and ever changing line between enabling and supportive is bound to happen along the way.

If your sponsor can't cut you some slack, I have some to spare.

And, since i don't know them, I can easily (and with very little consequence) label them a bit of a jerk!


(ps, I haven't read Sex at Dawn, tho' I have heard about it, mostly through Dan Savage's Lovecast. I've thought about opening things up in our marriage, but I don't think BPD hubby would be able to wrap his head around that. It's not a battle discussion I want to take on, at the mo'

[Crumbling]

He has even gotten way better about being more validating towards the kids. It is kind of amazing to see the transformation.

... .

As long as he is making progress with the kids, I don't want to do anything about leaving. A lot of the progress he is making with them is due to the fact that we all live in the same house together. The kids see him being nicer to me and them and they are nicer to him in turn.

... .

I saw one of the best definitions of codependency on a FB meme. It went something along the lines of "Codependency is caring more about somebody else's life and problems than they do." I tried to verify and found this: "Codependency is driven by the agreement that I will work harder on your problem and your life than you do."

This makes a lot of sense, Vee.  But it sounds like you feel that the progress he is making is only possible if you are there... .is this true?  Do you believe that he would just cave and give up if you weren't there every day?  Remember this isn't about re-evaluating your decision to stay, but examining your reasons for staying.  Is he still in the doghouse simply because you dont feel that he is capable of healing unless you are there to guide/inspire him into it, and you are angry at him for that?

Could we not re-state your reasons by saying, 'H requires a partner that will help guide him into making positive choices about his healing... .and as mom to his kids, that is my role.'   Or in other words, hope for/proof of positive change exists because of the co-dependency between the two of you... .your post sparked a memory of a term they used to use in an old recovery group I went to... .inner-dependency.

Inner-dependent would be used to describe a r/s where both parties depend on each other for the things they cant do for themselves.  This was viewed as the positive way to interact.  Knowing your own limitations and valuing the r/s for helping to improve those limitations, in a positive way.  This sound more like your situation, Vee.

... .I'm going to throw back some advice you gave to me a while ago... .forget what others think.  This r/s is about you and your H and no one knows it or you better than you, so no one else has the right to label it.    

Was it really your sponsor that labelled you co-dependent, when you turned a blind eye to the porn way back then?  If so, you need to be honest with her, and tell her that being given labels is not something that is helpful for you.  I would ask her about healthy dependency, and what that looks like for her/is it even possible/etc.

In my world, as I begin to accept that my h is not capable of being in a fully functioning r/s, my expectations for us are diminishing.  I'm beginning to understand that the best our r/s can be is what it is in that moment, he will always depend on me... .for something.  It's up to me to know if I'm supporting him in being healthier or I'm feeding his negative behaviours.

[takingandsending]

It's up to me to know if I'm supporting him in being healthier or I'm feeding his negative behaviours.

VOC, I am going to echo what Crumbling stated. The whole notion of co-dependency and enabling is really centered around enmeshment. Every relationship, healthy or otherwise, requires interdependence. When the give and receive of a relationship becomes unbalanced - which happens in every relationship at some time, the weight of caring for one another shifts more to one partner. No problem, if it is fluid and evens out or shifts back and forth. No build up of resentment, no sense of self-betrayal. But many of us are in situations where the relationship does not even out, does not shift back. Did we have some deep seeded, sinister and ulterior motive for getting there, or perhaps a fatal weakness and personality flaw for finding ourselves in that situation? No. It's not black and white like that. Did we possibly have a proclivity to accept an uneven balance in the weight of caring for another? Here, I tend to say, yes, most likely we did. Only you know where you live on this spectrum.

It's a personal thing. You don't have to accept it. You don't have to buy it. From my own experience, I was pissed off at the whole idea of codependency, because I have suffered  (like a lot of people in this community) at the hands of my partner while doing my utmost to try to be a decent person. But here's the thing, if I am angry, resentful and frustrated to no end with my wife, I am attributing the responsibility of my feelings to her actions and behaviors. For me, personally, that belief has limited me. I have kept myself from taking care of myself and, who knows, possibly entering a healthier, more balanced relationship, using that belief. Maybe you have not done this yourself. Maybe you have. It's something you decide. It's something you can investigate if you need to or knowing yourself well, decide doesn't fit what you know about yourself.

Wishing you well, VOC. I am sorry that you felt labeled and perhaps minimized by your sponsor in the program. That never feels good or right. 

[vortex of confusion]

Damned if you do, damned if you don't! Sounds like a lot of what you may be struggling with right now as well. - being labelled or accused of (in this case) being an enabler.

When I started this thread, I was triggered because of a conversation that I had with my sponsor. It was a legitimate question because I can't always tell the difference between enabling and being supportive. Like somebody else said, it is easy for things to cross the line without really recognizing it.

I wonder... .do you respect (the opinion of) the person who labelled you with enabling?

There is a difference between saying that my actions were enabling versus labeling me as enabling. I know that I am nitpicking. I am not enabling. I do sometimes do things that are enabling. I want to make sure that I know the difference between being enabling and being supportive in MY mind so that I can behave accordingly.

If your sponsor can't cut you some slack, I have some to spare.

And, since i don't know them, I can easily (and with very little consequence) label them a bit of a jerk!

My sponsor isn't a jerk at all. She is a very sweet person that said something that triggered me and got me to thinking. That is a good thing. She is a friend. As such, she is sometimes going to say things that bother me or get under my skin. Because it bothered me so much, I brought it here hoping to get some feedback and further explore it so I could figure out why it bugged me so much.

(ps, I haven't read Sex at Dawn, tho' I have heard about it, mostly through Dan Savage's Lovecast. I've thought about opening things up in our marriage, but I don't think BPD hubby would be able to wrap his head around that. It's not a battle discussion I want to take on, at the mo'

It is wise to not open things up with somebody with BPD. They can't stick to any agreement. That was the biggest problem. One day my husband would be gung ho about it and the next he would want to stop it all. He would want to stop things when he couldn't find anybody else. It felt like he turned it into a competition. It didn't work at all.

[vortex of confusion]

This makes a lot of sense, Vee.  But it sounds like you feel that the progress he is making is only possible if you are there... .is this true?  Do you believe that he would just cave and give up if you weren't there every day?  Remember this isn't about re-evaluating your decision to stay, but examining your reasons for staying.  Is he still in the doghouse simply because you dont feel that he is capable of healing unless you are there to guide/inspire him into it, and you are angry at him for that?

I don't think it is about me being here. I think he could make progress with or without me. The progress that he needs to be here for is the progress with the kids. If he and I separated, he would not have as much access to the kids. I wouldn't prevent him from seeing the kids at all. It would be a purely logistic matter. If he was living away from me and the kids, then it is only logical that he wouldn't be able to spend as much time with him. I think the kids are what keeps him going some days. Even when I am mad and distant, he can sit in his chair and have a dog or a cat or a kid climb up in his lap and that helps him to feel better. I have no intention of guiding him or inspiring him. I have my on stuff to do.

Could we not re-state your reasons by saying, 'H requires a partner that will help guide him into making positive choices about his healing... .and as mom to his kids, that is my role.'   Or in other words, hope for/proof of positive change exists because of the co-dependency between the two of you... .your post sparked a memory of a term they used to use in an old recovery group I went to... .inner-dependency.

Nope. I am not going to re-state my reasons to say that he requires a partner to guide him into making positive choices. I am not staying for him. I am staying for ME. I am not rescuing him by staying. I am not being noble or anything of the sort. I am being realistic. I have 4 daughters. I don't get out of the house much as it is. If he wasn't here, I would be able to get out even less. If he wasn't here, the kids wouldn't have as much access to him. I see that as being a detriment to him and the kids. He can be grumpy to the kids at times but he isn't abusive to them.

He may not give me much help with the kids but the help that he does give me is very much appreciated. And, there are things that he does that I wouldn't want to have to do and add to my to do list. I am being very practical.

Inner-dependent would be used to describe a r/s where both parties depend on each other for the things they cant do for themselves.  This was viewed as the positive way to interact.  Knowing your own limitations and valuing the r/s for helping to improve those limitations, in a positive way.  This sound more like your situation, Vee.

When I read this, my first thought was, "there isn't much that I can't do for myself". If my husband wasn't here, I could do everything by myself. I have no doubts that I can do things on my own. I don't want to do them on my own.

[shatterd]

i agree vortex,,  we know how life is alone,, we know how speacial life is when someone is with us,, i can do alone as well,, but hell no i dont want too,, life is to short for all that

[Grey Kitty]

I think one of the biggest differences between support and enabling... .or perhaps a measure of codependence is how  aware of you are of your choices and compromises.

You know your H has a bunch of limitations, but you choose to stay with him and make things better, because it will make for a better environment for your kids.

You know you aren't stuck, and you know this is your first choice. (at least for today)

You can do the very same actions... .but if you do them because you choose to do them based on your values... .instead of doing them because your husband 'needs' it, that can make all the difference in the world.

[EaglesJuju]

This thread has reached its post limit, and is now closed. This is a worthwhile topic, and you are free to start a new thread to continue the conversation. Thanks for your understanding... .