Wants my friendship

[Oncebitten]

My ex and I have been trying to work through a very bad time in our r/s for weeks now.   But she cant get past the damage I did.  She tells me now that all she can accept it my friendship and that is all she is willing to give me.

Thats not what I want.  She tells me that she is still in love with me but cant be in a r/s with me bc she doesn't trust me any more.

Do I be her friend and hope that we can rekindle what we had? 

Is she doing this because she wants that back and isnt ready?

Is she essentially using me to get over me?  Keeping me around for love and support until she finds someone else?

Wants me around to keep tabs on me?

So confused... .and lost.

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PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Notwendy]

I know this is hard, but the choice isn't about what she wants. You're considering why she says this, but really we can't read minds. All you have to go on is what she said to you.

I think it is tempting for us to try to guess what someone else is wanting or feeling, especially if someone isn't consistent.

However, this is the situation. You had an incident with someone else. It's over, but your ex has said she can not get over this.

You want more, but she says all she can give you is friendship. You are thinking about what she wants.

Is this enough for you? Do you really want to be in the friend zone- somewhat attached to her, but not happy with the situation. Basically, if you agree with her - what you are saying is sure, I'll take whatever you give me, and just be here for you. If you do this, she faces no consequence for her choices- that would be the risk of losing you, and you will move on. But in the friend zone- ( while you are still longing for her) she hasn't risked much.

Perhaps there is a time where you could be a friend, but do you need to heal from the relationship break up- not long for her before you can do that?

Would it be better for you to make a clean break and give yourself some time to recover?

Do you want to continue a relationship of some sorts where you are not forgiven for something like this?

I think it may help to decide what you want to do, regardless of what she wants.

[ArleighBurke]

It is a difficult situation - for you AND her.

She has been hurt. And BPDs feel emotion 1000x stronger than nons. So she is very fearful of being hurt again - and is avoiding that possibility.

A relationship development forum I really like dicusses the "friend zone". They basically say that most men presume you can go from the friend-zone to the more-than-friends zone - but it is super difficult. They say if you just want to be friends - then sure. But if you want more, then do NOT enter the friend zone. Say to her "I cannot just be your friend - I want more that that". Force her to choose a relationship, or nothing.

I'm not sure how that would work for an ex, especially a BPD-ex. I'm trying to imagine my wife if I said that - would she ever come back? Probably not. But as Notwendy says - it you live with her as friends then you've set the standard of what you'll accept - and she controls it. What incentive is there for her to change that?

[FallBack!Monster]

Friend zone... .BPD or not, not a good position to be in. It would hurt you bc if you guys are just friends that means you have no rights to anything.

How do you think you'll feel if you knew she was dating someone else? Bc when you say yes to just friends, that might just happen and you can't say sh@t.  You'd be the only one hurt in that trio.

To this day, I have some romantic feelings for my ex. I won't get into why or which feelings but I know right now I am not emotionally prepared for my eyes to see her with someone else.  I can know she is but don't care to see it. Are you prepared for any of that? 

[Meili]

I have a different take on this than the others do. I have learned that being your ex's friend can work to your benefit far more than just walking away completely. This isn't just from personal experience either.

While I truly believe that giving trust is a choice, how can she feel comfortable giving you trust if she cannot see that you are trustworthy?

How can you rekindle the loving feelings if you are not around?

Invalidating her feelings by giving her an ultimatum doesn't sound like it will get you where you ultimately want to go either.

So, you know that you run the risk of being trapped in the friend-zone, but you also know that you run the risk of losing her forever if you aren't her friend for now. Which risk is more acceptable to you?

[HopefulDad]

My ex and I have been trying to work through a very bad time in our r/s for weeks now.   But she cant get past the damage I did.  She tells me now that all she can accept it my friendship and that is all she is willing to give me.

What damage did you do, real or alleged?

I'm asking because it's all too common on this website that our default POV is "the pwBPD has a disordered view of what happened" when sometimes it was us nons who effed up.

[Oncebitten]

Hopefuldad

While we were broken up I spent time with another woman.  When my gf came back into my life I decided that I wanted to try it again with her.  She feels that I cheated on her.  But what upsets her the most is that I didnt tell her right away.  I kept ir from her and broke the trust.  I know I effed up. 

[Oncebitten]

All

I dont disagree with any of you.  The friend zone is a bad place to be if you want more.  For the simple fact that its painful. To talk to someone you are very much in love with and yet only recieve a friendship is heart breaking... .especially when you want so much more.
Meili I know what you are saying... .hard to rebuild trust and restart a fire if you arent there.

Dont know what I can handle at this point ... .both options break my heart to be honest.

[HopefulDad]

While we were broken up I spent time with another woman.  When my gf came back into my life I decided that I wanted to try it again with her.  She feels that I cheated on her.  But what upsets her the most is that I didnt tell her right away.  I kept ir from her and broke the trust.  I know I effed up. 

This one's a tough one because although you technically didn't cheat and you technically don't owe her any explanation of what you did while broken up, it's not hard to see how she could feel hurt by your lack of being forthcoming.  I have a friend who told me over beers that when he was dating his wife, they had broken up briefly and during that time he had a fling.  He said this is something he never told his wife and never will.  His wife does not suffer a PD, but I can imagine the pain she would feel finding out he hid this from her.

Personally, I would decouple your ex's PD from this and take her pain at face value.  You admit yourself that you may have effed up, so don't minimize her pain as being a product of BPD.  And then I would wish her luck and try not to bother with maintaining a friendship, instead focusing on learning from my mistake and moving forward.  Sometimes ending things badly is a good way to make sure they end.  Trying to maintain a friendship, especially with the ulterior motive of winning her back can just prolong your pain.

[Oncebitten]

Hopefuldad

I have separated the hurt from the condition.  I and I know that she is hurt regardless.  My problem is that I don't want them to end.  And we have days where everything is great, and looks like we are on the road to recovery and then everything goes bad again.  Thats why I struggle with being friends.  I feel likw given time the trust can be repaired and we can move forward.  But if I give up the friendship then what chance do I have?

[Meili]

What is it that triggers her and then she pushes you away when things are going well?

As you know, I too betrayed my x and have to rebuild trust. It's been basically a three steps forward, two steps back process; but we are slowly growing closer again. It's a very slow and painful process for both of us. She tells me that it would be far easier on her to just walk away and give up any idea of reconciliation, but she's trying. Part of that trying is keeping me at arms' length to keep herself from being hurt until she believes that I won't hurt her.

I asked her one day if I've been placed in the friend-zone. She told me that I was more than a friend, but we are less than a couple. I did start out just as a friend though. I had to show her consistency in words and actions to start to get close to her.

I read somewhere, today, that it can sometimes take 1.5 years or more to regain trust, and that's in the best of circumstances. But, for the woman that I planned on spending the rest of my life with, 1.5 years doesn't seem that bad.

Each relationship is unique though. Each couple brings their own set of challenges to face and overcome.

[HopefulDad]

... .I know that she is hurt regardless.

This is good that you realize this.  So when she says she wants to end things, you can take her at face value.

My problem is that I don't want them to end.

The problem here is that she does want them to end and you have no control over that.  It sucks, but that's how it goes in these situations.

... .I feel likw given time the trust can be repaired and we can move forward.  But if I give up the friendship then what chance do I have?

You may be right, but you are more likely to be grasping at straws.  If you want to remain friends to leave the door open a crack to repairing your romantic relationship, get okay with the idea that it's her job to open the door all the way and she may choose not to.  Do you think you can be her friend while she dates other guys?  Because that's what being her friend will likely entail.  If not, you're just playing games and that's not fair to her and undignified for you.

[Splitblack4good]

My ex asked me to be freinds with her even asked me to promise that if we split up again I'd always be her freind but what I didn't realise at the time is she asked me to promise her that when she had already lined up my replacement ! The reason she done that is obvious she wanted to keep me as back up . When I found out and confronted her about it and even proved that she was with my replacement the time she asked me I told her I don't want to be freinds with her and still to this day she thinks I'm the one who has wronged her even though she done that !
Sorry if I kind of high jacked your post and don't know if that's helped your situation atall .

[FallBack!Monster]

Not sure if this is what hijacking means but not what I'm trying to do here.

When my ex split and split me blacker than black. I had no idea this is was the direction we were going. When I finally woke up to it, I told her we were better of as friends. I still had romantic feelings for her but too many differences and unnecessary disagreements.

She wouldn't hear of it. Then she agreed. After that we spent a few more weeks doing what couples do. Use your own imagination. Then one day she stopped all together. Ceased all communication, etc for weeks. Then one day showed up at my door smelling like she had a few shots of Patrons, and "told" me she only wanted to be friends. Also, she wanted stop doing what couples do. I was hurt but she was drunk as heck so I waited a few days to bring it up again. It turns out she was serious that time. My reaction to that was not pleasant to her at all. Trust me I know how I can get when I'm upset.

Weeks later, I realized that that's what I asked so I became less upset at her and respected her wishes. So I never again talked about us as a us. Instead, I talked about how we should have been friends from jump and all that dumb shT. However, it somewhat bother me that things had changed between us. It was nerve-wracking to see her or hear her voice. Bc she was now drunk all the time and I don't even drink.

I started to think, why did I want to break it off in the first place. and why did she say that she only wanted to be friends, then I did some more dumb thinking just bc, I think too much. Lol
After that, do I want her back? Why? What's changed? Can I trust her to not drink herself to death? Can I trust her to not break my heart again? What am I up to with wanting her back after I told her we're better off not romantically involved? Wld I be okay seeing her with other partners? No! Can we be acquainted? Yes. Can we be friends? I want to say yes, but too painful right now. Cause how healthy would that be for me when I know for sure I'm not there yet?

Yup! She has moved far on in life and I still refuse to date until I know I can honestly and fully offer someone what I had promised her. In my opinion, if you still harbor those feelings for her, you SHOULD NOT accept charity friendship. Either your something together or you're nothing apart.

I hope this answers some questions.

[Oncebitten]

Splitblack

You didn't hijack anything...
Thats the point of these posts to share experiences, in the hope that we all come out better on the other side. Idk the same thing from time to time.  Does she really want me as a friend or am I just supply until she finds someone new.

[Oncebitten]

Fallback

Not sure if its chairty or what... .but the thought of just being friends right now breaks me into pieces.  I always tell her I can do that for her... .I mean I broke her heart so I feel I owe her a friendship if she really wants it.

But how healthy is it for either of us really, if all I do is hold on to that hope of more?  Thats not really a friend is it?  In my mind no man will ever be right for her if its not me.  How supportive is that?  I dont harbor feelings for her... .my feelings for her consume me.

[FallBack!Monster]

Splitblack

You didn't hijack anything...
Thats the point of these posts to share experiences, in the hope that we all come out better on the other side. Idk the same thing from time to time.  Does she really want me as a friend or am I just supply until she finds someone new.

Do you even care?

[FallBack!Monster]

Not sure if its chairty or what... .but the thought of just being friends right now breaks me into pieces. 

Then don't do it.

i always tell her I can do that for her... .I mean I broke her heart so I feel I owe her a friendship if she really wants it.

being her friend out of pity is not good. I've never heard of anybody owing friendship. In friendship there has to be love. It's not a way to repay I debt you "assume* you owe. That's not real friendship. That is a forced situation. Love of any type should not be forced. Move on with your life if that's the reason why you're doing it. It won't last a day, in my opinion. It's fake. Leave it!
 

how healthy is it for either of us really, if all I do is hold on to that hope of more? 

more of what?
 

Thats not really a friend is it?  In my mind no man will ever be right for her if its not me.

welcome to the club, the party, and the after-hours underground spot. We all feel that way when we care for somebody. However, my ex thought otherwise and left to go find out if the grass is greener on the other side.
 

  How supportive is that?  I dont harbor feelings for her... .my feelings for her consume me.

which feelings? Passion? Resentment? Love? Wanting her in your life? Wanting her for backup supply? Huh
A couple months ago I felt, WOW I just want her in my life. but truthfully I don't think I should be caring that much for somebody that didn't think twice and walked away from me and never looked back.
Does any of what I've said make any sense to you at all? Idk if Im helping or making matters worse.

[Oncebitten]

Fallback

Here it is real simple... .I love her and want to be in a relationship with her.  If I cant have that as selfish as it may sound, I don't think I can maintain a friendship. 

If i cant be a real friend to her why bother?  Thats my question, I will always or at least for a long time want more.

[FallBack!Monster]

Oncebitten, correct me if Im wrong.  You have fond memories of when you were partners. You claim to have hurt her deeply. She perceives infidelity. You have been with someone else but it was during a break. You feel she's not past the painful memories. You love her. She loves you. You want more than friendship but don't feel you can give her what she truly deserves. But you want to try. But more than that you want to do it right this time around?

Sounds to me like you feel the same passion for each other but are both afraid to be hurt again.

Forget about JUST friends. Find a common ground. Where it is safe for both. It's not impossible. I can't tell you she'll trust you. Especially right away. She might never let her guard down for you but then again your guards are up to. Why? Because you are here asking about it. Another thing that I found. If my ex and I had taking the possessiveness out of the equation, we probably wouldn't have failed as fast as we did.

With my ex emotions are all over the place, one day she'll love me the next day she wld be so emotionally distant. I had grown accustomed to it but it kept me worried. Not a good feeling. If we had NOT titled or r/s who knows how it could've been.

Anyway, how about trying something different? Not saying to do what I mentioned. However, Im suggesting reaching a common ground. In the middle. If there's really any love left between the two of you, you will find a way. That doesn't feel forced to either of you. What do you think?

[patientandclear]

I think the problem is that OB's ex is the one who is limiting it to friendship status. It's not in his control to deem it "in the middle."

[FallBack!Monster]

patientandclear

I think the problem is that OB's ex is the one who is limiting it to friendship status. It's not in his control to deem it "in the middle."

Ob, aren't you the one who messed up? Didn't you hurt her? You want her to give you a second chance to do it again? Or do you just want things your way and you cannot see pass what you want?

All I hear is what "l" want and " I don't" want. I'm not trying to be mean. I just think that's something you should consider. Do you just want to "win" her back? Or do you genuinely believe you possess what it takes to make her happy with you again? How was it before the break?

There are many factors that have to be considered before proceeding. I love happy endings.  I wish you success.

[Oncebitten]

Fallback

I did hurt her but I know that I won't do it again.  I know that I can make her happy, I still do.   Not sure what common ground there is to be had. I have tried everything to prove to her that it's her I want to be with.  She says she will give me a chance again one minute then says friends is all I can have the next.

[Oncebitten]

Patientandclear

Yes she is the one that keeps saying just friends.

[Oncebitten]

Snap

Yes I am the one who messed up.but I don't just want to win her back.  I love her and I know that I can make her happy again.  The r/s wasn't perfect before  but it was great and I believe that it can truly be better if we can get past the point where we are at now. There is too much love on both sides to give it up.  We are a truly amazing couple when together.  And we can be again.

[HopefulDad]

"Getting past this"... .this would be tough for any relationship.  Trust needs to be rebuilt and that's never an easy thing.  There needs to be forgiveness.   Genuine forgiveness and no held grudge or resentment.

Do you think you are truly going to be forgiven by someone with BPD?  Or do you think you'll be clubbed over the head with this incident for the rest of your life?

[FallBack!Monster]

 
I think middle ground is a good idea. Romantic relationships are overrated. Who is the one with BPD, you or her?
Proceed with caution if it's she. The friendship pull could be a way for her to entertain herself. It's possible it's a long string with a few in your position tugging at the same time. Perhaps she's having fun. Buy a pair of matching cheap rings. Place one on her finger then make her a promise that a year from now you're going to replace it with the real thing. That's not a real engagement but you got her attention then you can ease your way in.

Proceed with caution bc my ex did a lot of sneaky things to me. Setup dates when she knew she was going to be out of the country. Text me open invitations with no time date details to see if I'd bite. Say she wants to see me with no details. If you're not a pwBPD you might not get it at first or ever get to understand why even bother but thats how you wld be if you were numb inside. The fake invites went on for months until I was was far and safe enough to disengage.

They do that bc they like to play and know a normal brain would take it at face value until they dont. Judge her validity by her actions not her wordst.

OB- 
 there are plenty of fish in the sea.  Why do you feel the need to go backwards? Are you lonely?

[patientandclear]

Snap--you do a nice job of explaining the problem with the middle ground (that it can yield many benefits to someone wBPD while being confusing as all get out to the other person). Not sure why you start out recommending it. It is painful for someone in OB's position for the reasons OB has identified--he is not OK with being one of several and being kept at arm's length.

[FallBack!Monster]

I completely agree with SO71. I went through the EXACT same things after my "devaluation." In human terms, after she determined she saw no further reason to treat me with respect. 

In my normal state of mind, I knew she was playing games. She always did live in a fantastic (to her and her friends) fantasy world. Only now (after the fact) she's displaying the turbo version of her gaming. However I would fool myself that there could be "some type" friendship between the two of but no. Once your dumped you're no link the game. Not even to be played. My ex was literally having her friends who are like her and family contacting me, pretending to be her. A whole room full of idiots.  My number was linked to a group of her acquaintances. That's why I decided to no longer feel bad for her. Keep in mind this all the while begging for us to at least remain friends.
ONCEB, here's a good way to know. This worked for me. My ex brain is a messy mixture of a few PDs. None of which live in the now. But all take people lives for granted. Instead of moving on with the other replacements, she'd from time to time hit me up. Listen! I said from time to time. But one thing I'll say, never picked up the phone and called once she left never.
Write down all the pros and cons from past and present interactions with her. Once you add it all up you'll see the offer she's making its just a joke. Who messed up or who broke it off is the least of your problems.

I care about my exs well being, but sooner than later I had to come to terms with the facts. pwBPD only use you after they have discarded you. I  want you to be my friend means, I want to know you on board so that I can stop this exhausting  mind F game with you. That way I can narrow it down to just a few people left to convince. Once I got all my eggs in a row (all exs back on board) I will have free time to seekout  a new attachment. Bc I'm getting tired of faking for the one I'm currently with. So yes, proceed with caution.

[FallBack!Monster]

Wow... .

[Oncebitten]

All

Again thanks for the support.

I have said it several times before, I love her and want to be with her.  But I feel like if I cant be in a romantic relationship with her I dont belong with her.  At least not right now. It sounds so good in theory that too people so close should be friends, we have meant everything to one another for so long.

But despite what I did, am I to revist that pain every time we speak because she is no longer mine?

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[FallBack!Monster]

OB ... .You sound very certain of your feelings? I can't help but to wonder, are you sure she only wants to be your friend? Maybe your ex is using self preservation techniques she's had developed in her life.
 You said you caused her pain. How do you plan to win her back?  What or whicht techniques are you planning to employ to accomplish that task? Or you just just want to strong arm you way in with no other effort?  It is a hard job to force someone to trust you again. You can't try to Flintstones your way back in.

if I were you I would go about it differently. You claim to have screwed up. Have you apologize or ever pretended to be sorry?

I can tell you genuinely care but unless you have acknowledged your wrong to both yourself and her, I don't see how you plan to make her put it aside. Iif you were as happy as you say, how comes you don't know what to do or say to easy back into her head/heart?  Use your imagination. What does she like to hear? What does she like to do?  What's important to her? What did you both do together that kept you both in this tumultuous r/s? Have you spoken to her about your true feelings or are you only venting here? Bc she has to know in order for you to have a chance. Otherwise she can accuse you of being pretentious. .

 Are you afraid she'll reject you if you tell her your true feelings and intentions?

It is a difficult task indeed, however if I shared your passion for my ex, believe me you, I would find a way.and I'd go all out. But that's just me.
Nope! You shouldn't Alway be reminded. But you're fooling yourself if you believe you can rekindle anything without any effort. .
Here's an example, I want a million dollars but I don't want to do anything to get it. I just want it and that's that. Then the universe  says, oh really?  HA!  Put in some work!

Does any of this help?

[Oncebitten]

FBM

I am certain of my feelings.  Only thing that I am sure of in this world.  I have apologized, and I am sorry, truly am.  This isnt new, I have been trying to right my wrongs for 2 months.

She knows my true feelings... .I tell her every day.  Everytime she brings up what I did, I allow her to feel it, to bring the hurt and the pain to me.  And we have days where everything is wonderful and something triggers her and she goes back.  I know that this will continue for a long while, and thats fine I am willing to fight for her for as long as it takes.  Just don't know what to do at this point. 
Do I dare let her go and hope that she comes back to me?  Or do I stay and fight everyday just like I have been, proving my love and dedication to her?

Personally I am a fighter, but thats hasnt worked.

[gresmunkie]

OB

I was/am like you in regard to the feelings for my ex. I too am a 'fighter' and when we split I went to great lengths beyond anything ive ever been willing to for anyone nor would I probably ever do for anyone again, to prove that to her. did it work? no. However about a month after I stopped pursuing/chasing/trying to prove my love etc and stopped communicating, she showed up at my door saying she was still in love with me. IMO if you feel honestly that you have wronged her in some way and sincerely apologized and clearly let her know how you feel about her theres really not much else you can do. the problem for me with staying in contact would be that I would never know that she made the decision to come back on her own, without my influence. if she wants to reconnect I believe she will, although it may take time, but it will be on her terms. from my experience I don't think staying friends will help if you want more than that.  and I also strongly believe in taking care of yourself and making sure you are as strong as you can possibly be for if she does come back to you. it will also help you if she doesn't. good luck to you

[Splitblack4good]

Splitblack

You didn't hijack anything...
Thats the point of these posts to share experiences, in the hope that we all come out better on the other side. Idk the same thing from time to time.  Does she really want me as a friend or am I just supply until she finds someone new.

From my experience and from what you said I would say she wants you to be around at times when there is no one else . They tend to label it as "freinds " .
My ex done this to me before she just used me to babysit while she went out or she would ask me to listern to her problems with my replacement  they don't do it on purpose when they are having a meltdown they just feel comfort when someone they know is there . When they knowingly do it is different and you feel used and invalidated .
When me and the ex split up back in November 2014 and she got with someone else and discarded me she done that to hurt me and admitted it the whole time I wanted to be her freind as a way of getting back together but it pushed her further away . So when I withdrew and stopped any contact the new relaitionship she was in fell apart within weeks . So what I'm trying to say is in your situation is give her space but every now and then just send a nuatral text like Hi hope your ok ? This will let her know your thinking about her but not pressuring her into anything then she may come back to you . If you go NC it may run the risk of her thinking you don't care and moved on .

[Meili]

FBM, I can see that there is a lot of passion in your posts on this thread and your desire to protect OB from what you have experienced. There is a glaring difference between your experience and his however: His ex is looking back and has not walked completely away from him. She still tells him that she loves him and still keeps the lines of communication open.

As we all know, we are a very diverse group of people with very different life experiences. As such, we all have very different perspectives. As I stated earlier in this thread, my experience with "just being friends" is quite different from what most of the posters here are describing. From what I am reading, it appears that the difference is that I accepted that my relationship with my x was over. My desire to have her re-enter my life required me to accept the fact that might never happen. I accomplished this through a period of about six weeks of NC while I started to work on myself. During this time, I watched her date another man. I radically accepted the situation to get through it.

I read here people talking about having hope and the pain that it would cause if their ex started dating another. It isn't the hope that causes the pain, it's the expectation that reconciliation will happen that causes the pain however. By letting go of all expectations, I was able to understand that she is free to do as she wishes in that she had no commitment to me and it is not a reflection on me in any way shape or form. She had relationships before me after all, why should the one that she had with him be any different?

When I pushed and pressured her to make a choice, a relationship with me or nothing, she pushed back even harder. When I stopped, again, as I said in my earlier post, she started to come back. We developed a friendship and started to rebuild trust. We've now gone camping alone together, she took me out with her friends for the first time last night and present the image that we are a couple, and she brought me muffins and initiated a kiss with me for the first time in a about a year this morning.

But, it was only releasing all emotions about the relationship and expectations, and not being attached to any outcome, and completely owning the problems that I created in the relationship and working diligently to change my thoughts and behaviors, that allowed me to get here. Yes, there was a great deal of pain involved in the process. Yes, we have not reached the end of our journey. No, we are not a couple again. No, the situation is not ideal. But, she and I are working on it together. If I had adopted the position that many on this thread have taken, that wouldn't be possible.

I had to, and I can tell you this was the most difficult part, do away with all desires for a quick resolution and reconciliation. I have to give her all the time and space that she needs to feel safe with me again. It has taken my commitment and consistency to see this through and not just give up and walk away that started to rekindle what we once had.

[FallBack!Monster]

I didn't want to say it but Splitblack & Gmonkey said it best. Move on. She's going to use you. She's a pro at it. Doesn't matter if it is intentional or not. There's no benefit in it for you. NC or have someone else do your replies if you don't want her to react to it. My ex is poison to me and to herself. You will soon come to realize the situation your in. I thank my old friend Abee for doing what he does.

[patientandclear]

For a while, I had an experience like Meili's. I was completely non-possessive and my exwBPD and I developed quite a lovely r/ship without expectations or definition. It was emotionally intimate. He defined it as not a couple. So far as I knew he was not seeing anyone else and I did not ask. It just ... .Unfolded, with no pressure. It was all voluntary and all very nice.

Eventually the lack of commitment and lack of overt acknowledgement really worked against me, however. He suddenly moved. He resisted any explanation. He started seeing someone else despite (or because?) he and I had been at a high water mark of closeness. He was breaking unstated bonds of reciprocal feeling that I'm sure were there ... .But there was nothing I could say about it because we were only friends. It was sort of a check mate.

I will not return to a friends scenario because I learned that to him, it means extracting all the benefits of a committed r/ship but without the commitment, which is ultimately a recipe for me to be badly hurt. The first time through, I didn't know that, and trusted in the organic evolution of our feelings. Now I do know how that works in his head, and to return is to basically sign up for that.

Meili's situation and mine are both possibilities, probably influenced by all sorts of microscopic differences in our stories and approaches and partners. It's just not really possible to know how it might go from where you're standing.

[Oncebitten]

Meili

I understand what you are saying and have always agreed with you.  And perhaps I need to back away and go nc for a while.  Honestly since this all happened we have never gone more than a few days without talking.   We haven't given each other any amount of time to heal.

[Notwendy]

Hi OB, I tend to look at behaviors from a reinforcement standpoint. So, you have apologized, yet, she brings this up over and over- and you keep proving your love to her.

And it is continuing- because, well if she has any fears of abandonment, all she has to do is bring up that incident and you jump in to soothe her feelings. Does this make sense as to why she keeps bringing it up? One of the most reinforcing things to people is attention. Bringing this incident up gets your undivided attention, profession of love.

And you keep doing it. I would also be willing to bet that the reason you do this is out of your fear of losing her- so you keep trying and trying. Also, if she approaches you, upset, she is focused on you- you know you haven't lost her yet and so there is still a chance. It works some time, maybe for a little while. Like putting quarters into a slot machine knowing it is possible to hit the jackpot.

Repetitive behaviors can have an additive quality to them.

But there is also some caretaking here. We all have fears and vulnerabilities in relationships. Yes the other person might decide to leave. But we have to manage our fears. People with BPD have trouble with that- and so being a fear soother is great reinforcement.

When will she stop bringing this up? I don't know. But I do know that behaviors tend to continue when they don't work to get the benefits they used to. ( after and extinction burst).

When do you stop reinforcing? When you've had enough of this. You made a mistake, you apologized. There is nothing you can do to erase the past. All you can do is move forward from it. You can take care of your part in this. She can choose to get past this or not. You can't control her choices no matter how hard you work at this.

You, on the other hand, can say enough is enough. I don't want to go through this day after day forever over one regrettable act that is over and done.

[Oncebitten]

Notwendy

So what is my solution then?  I love her and want to be with her.  But we are stuck in this loop, I am willing to apologize and even realize that this could come up months or years from now.  But we are stuck in this place. How do we move forward?
I realize that it is me that has to change my behaviour but what do I do?

[FallBack!Monster]

NotWe, you are just to intelligent for my level of understanding. I only understood the last 2 paragraph but I believe the main point was in the other paragraphs. Do you mind saying it back in English for simple folks like myself?

[Splitblack4good]

Just give her space and time . PwBPD stuggle and are in pain with there emoitional fears that flip flop and change all the time all day and all night sometimes and causes confusion for them hence I hate you don't leave me !  If your constantly trying to contact her she will prob see that as another set of feelings and emotions to deal with on top of the unmanageable feelings she feels already and makes them worse then she will A - not respect you B- start to resent you -C will prob force her to find someone new so there's no threat involved and will ease her pain .
I know it's hard you just want it so bad but trust me back off let her breath send a text every 10 days or something but keep it simple but straight " how are you hope your ok " she prob would see that less pressuring but also keep it consistent but not persistent .
It's your best play right now . She's a person just like us BPD disordered or not you can't force someone into anything they don't want to do .

[FallBack!Monster]

Just give her space and time . PwBPD stuggle and are in pain with there emoitional fears that flip flop and change all the time all day and all night sometimes and causes confusion for them hence I hate you don't leave me !  If your constantly trying to contact her she will prob see that as another set of feelings and emotions to deal with on top of the unmanageable feelings she feels already and makes them worse then she will A - not respect you B- start to resent you -C will prob force her to find someone new so there's no threat involved and will ease her pain .
I know it's hard you just want it so bad but trust me back off let her breath send a text every 10 days or something but keep it simple but straight " how are you hope your ok " she prob would see that less pressuring but also keep it consistent but not persistent .
It's your best play right now . She's a person just like us BPD disordered or not you can't force someone into anything they don't want to do .

Translation, she's not yet done with the current partner. She's not sure if the other one she's working, is going to pan out.

Just be patient. If she finds herself one day lonely and alone maybe you'll be the one she contacts unless someone else does before you do. She prefers new but will settle for the old for a bit until the newest object/fish bites the bate. Just sit tight and wait and see this time around where and how hard you fall. END OF TRANSLATION.

[Splitblack4good]

Translation, she's not yet done with the current partner. She's not sure if the other one she's working, is going to pan out.

Just be patient. If she finds herself one day lonely and alone maybe you'll be the one she contacts unless someone else does before you do. She prefers new but will settle for the old for a bit until the newest object/fish bites the bate. Just sit tight and wait and see this time around where and how hard you fall. END OF TRANSLATION.
   
 harsh way of wording it but true .

[Notwendy]

Hi Fallback- I think the main message is that, if we do something, and get a reward, we will do it again. That's true for all living creatures, not just humans.

So lets say, you have a girlfriend who does something that upset you. She apologizes, swears up and down it won't happen again, professes her love for you. Well, that is sort of OK but you are insecure and wonder if she loves you. Each time you bring it up, well she pays a lot of attention to you, professes her love for you. Well you do it again, and she does the same thing.

Now why would you stop doing this? It works. You are feeling rewarded for your behavior.


OB, the two of you are in a loop. But she has no reason to stop as her part in this is being rewarded.

Let's put this one on the drama triangle. She is a perpetual victim, and if someone is a victim, they are not the one responsible for the breakdown of the relationship. Yet, she has a role in this by not wanting to let go of her position as victim.

If there is to be any change in the loop, I think the one who wants the change has to be the one to change. I don't know any other way.

[Splitblack4good]

I completely agree with SO71. I went through the EXACT same things after my "devaluation." In human terms, after she determined she saw no further reason to treat me with respect. 

In my normal state of mind, I knew she was playing games. She always did live in a fantastic (to her and her friends) fantasy world. Only now (after the fact) she's displaying the turbo version of her gaming. However I would fool myself that there could be "some type" friendship between the two of but no. Once your dumped you're no link the game. Not even to be played. My ex was literally having her friends who are like her and family contacting me, pretending to be her. A whole room full of idiots.  My number was linked to a group of her acquaintances. That's why I decided to no longer feel bad for her. Keep in mind this all the while begging for us to at least remain friends.
ONCEB, here's a good way to know. This worked for me. My ex brain is a messy mixture of a few PDs. None of which live in the now. But all take people lives for granted. Instead of moving on with the other replacements, she'd from time to time hit me up. Listen! I said from time to time. But one thing I'll say, never picked up the phone and called once she left never.
Write down all the pros and cons from past and present interactions with her. Once you add it all up you'll see the offer she's making its just a joke. Who messed up or who broke it off is the least of your problems.

I care about my exs well being, but sooner than later I had to come to terms with the facts. pwBPD only use you after they have discarded you. I  want you to be my friend means, I want to know you on board so that I can stop this exhausting  mind F game with you. That way I can narrow it down to just a few people left to convince. Once I got all my eggs in a row (all exs back on board) I will have free time to seekout  a new attachment. Bc I'm getting tired of faking for the one I'm currently with. So yes, proceed with caution.

Whor ! 

[Oncebitten]

There is no one else.  Its still just me in the picture.  I think I will do a mixture of both options.  I am going to back off and give space, but I will make it known that a friendship alone is not enough

[FallBack!Monster]

FBM, I can see that there is a lot of passion in your posts on this thread and your desire to protect OB from what you have experienced. There is a glaring difference between your experience and his however: His ex is looking back and has not walked completely away from him. She still tells him that she loves him and still keeps the lines of communication open.

As we all know, we are a very diverse group of people with very different life experiences. As such, we all have very different perspectives. As I stated earlier in this thread, my experience with "just being friends" is quite different from what most of the posters here are describing. From what I am reading, it appears that the difference is that I accepted that my relationship with my x was over. My desire to have her re-enter my life required me to accept the fact that might never happen. I accomplished this through a period of about six weeks of NC while I started to work on myself. During this time, I watched her date another man. I radically accepted the situation to get through it.

I read here people talking about having hope and the pain that it would cause if their ex started dating another. It isn't the hope that causes the pain, it's the expectation that reconciliation will happen that causes the pain however. By letting go of all expectations, I was able to understand that she is free to do as she wishes in that she had no commitment to me and it is not a reflection on me in any way shape or form. She had relationships before me after all, why should the one that she had with him be any different?

When I pushed and pressured her to make a choice, a relationship with me or nothing, she pushed back even harder. When I stopped, again, as I said in my earlier post, she started to come back. We developed a friendship and started to rebuild trust. We've now gone camping alone together, she took me out with her friends for the first time last night and present the image that we are a couple, and she brought me muffins and initiated a kiss with me for the first time in a about a year this morning.

But, it was only releasing all emotions about the relationship and expectations, and not being attached to any outcome, and completely owning the problems that I created in the relationship and working diligently to change my thoughts and behaviors, that allowed me to get here. Yes, there was a great deal of pain involved in the process. Yes, we have not reached the end of our journey. No, we are not a couple again. No, the situation is not ideal. But, she and I are working on it together. If I had adopted the position that many on this thread have taken, that wouldn't be possible.

I had to, and I can tell you this was the most difficult part, do away with all desires for a quick resolution and reconciliation. I have to give her all the time and space that she needs to feel safe with me again. It has taken my commitment and consistency to see this through and not just give up and walk away that started to rekindle what we once had.

There's Alway s passion in everything that I do. and yes, our situations is by far very different.

[Infern0]

Just my experience but being friends doesn't work.

Ig they know you have feelings for them they will treat you with disrespect and disregard unless they need something.

If you don't have feelings they will try and get you too.

When they do line a new relationship up you'll be promoted to triangulation guy who she complains too all the time and maybe cheats with.

This is all. A real friendship just isn't possible.

[Notwendy]

Middle- a less reactive stance- is one choice. I think if we go NC, that decision is for our own well being. Sometimes it is necessary to heal. If we go NC as part of the push pull game, then we are playing that game too.

There can be a middle ground to the issue of the one indiscretion that the end of the relationship is blamed on- and that is to be less reactive. But to do so, I think OB has to come to a place of acceptance- that there is nothing left to do and let go of the guilt (part of FOG). The other part of this acceptance is realizing that she may or may not get over this incident- that she has this choice too- no matter what OB does. We don't control how people think or feel.

Then, assuming she doesn't let it go- what is a reasonable "penance" for this transgression? How much of having to apologize for it is enough. I don't know the answer to this.

If you are able to forgive yourself, and know that you have done all you can do, and let the emotion go, you can be less reactive- and less responsive to her bringing this up, without being cruel by not giving it as much of your energy. When she says " I just can't get over this" instead of jumping into action to help her to get over it, acknowledge it while keeping in mind this is her feelings to manage. " Honey, I understand that this was hurtful, and I am sorry you are having this difficulty" Then, the conversation ends. She will push it. Then say "Honey, I love you, and I wish I could change this, but I can't change the past and talking about this more doesn't do that" and the conversation ends. She pushes, repeat it but eventually disengage from this.

You may eventually see this as drama bait. I don't see this as malicious, but sometimes we are baited with emotional statements, because the drama is a form of engagement. It may feel like normal to them. But if we can hold on to our own feelings when we feel baited and be stable and not reactive, it may possibly stabilize the situation. Sometimes, when I feel baited, I am just quiet and don't respond right away. That isn't the ST, I am still engaged, but less instantly reactive.

IMHO- I don't see what you did as infidelity as you were technically broken up. I have known a couple of friends -married couples - who were able to overcome infidelity in their marriage. I know a lot more couples where this broke the relationship up. These are personal friends- so I don't know all the details, but I do know that the couples who worked through it went through counseling and a lot of work on the part of both spouses. If this woman ever does want to reconcile, you might consider counseling together to help with this issue.

[Oncebitten]

Notwendy

Like you said earlier in the post we are caught in this loop and its up to me to find a way out of it.  I have been trying to be less reactive as you suggest and it has helped... .we fight less... .but she stil brings it up regularly.  I understand that this is something that I may have to deal with for a long time and I accept that.   Just want to move forward and not have it be the central issue of the relationship.

[patientandclear]

Seems to me there are three different issues in play: one, reacting to her sense of hurt and betrayal (agree with NW that that is a distorted interpretation); two, being "friends;" and three, whatever issues gave rise to the break in which you got involved with the other woman. On the first, NW has given great guidance. On two, the question is whether you can tolerate the ambiguity. Meili is having a good experience; I tried, but my ex saw other people. That's him, not your person. This is a situational and individual decision that you are in the best place to assess.

The third has not been discussed in this thread. How is it that you two became estranged such that you got involved with the other woman--and are you addressing those issues in some fashion?

[Oncebitten]

I have addressed those issues and have completely removed the other woman from my life.  What I did was a mistake and I admit that, I have apologized for it and it will never happen again.

[patientandclear]

Sorry--that's not what I was asking. I understand that you only got involved with her because you and your pwBPD were broken up. I was asking how that breakup came about. What where the dynamics underlying that, and what are your thoughts about addressing those?

[Oncebitten]

We broke up because she felt that I didn't defend the relationship when someone said something about it.  She the told me that she was going back to her ex and refused to speak to me.  This was the first time she had ever done this.  I see now that she simply sought to provoke and hurt me.  A couple weeks later she contacted me and we have been trying to get back together since.  I see now that in the heat of the moment she says things, things she doesnt mean.  I know now not to over react and to wait. 

[Notwendy]

There is a lesson in this for her too. This is to be accountable for what you say. We may sometimes say things we don't mean in the heat of the moment, but if so, we can apologize- quickly.

By blaming you, she is in victim mode. Yes, you reacted, but she said what she said. In the non BPD world it works like this: people are accountable for their words.

Sorry if this sounds harsh, but it is a reality. People have been fired from their jobs over a rant on social media. We are taken at our word.

Words are important to me and they contributed to the issues in my marriage, and my family. My H would say anything it took to win an argument. Not knowing what was going on, I took these words to heart and they were very hurtful. He, on the other hand, wanted to just forget them, but he didn't apologize, just acted as if he didn't say them. Through counseling, he did apologize, then it was up to me to let them go and eventually I did.

Some things my BPD mother has said has severed family ties between people. It's a whole other topic, but for years she denied saying them, and now, the results of them are apparent now that family relationships are broken and she can't fix this by pretending she didn't mean it.

I know you want your relationship back, and it sounds like you are willing to be the bad guy here for her sake, but in this context, she is taking victim position, and that isn't entirely accurate.

[Oncebitten]

NW

It isn't entirely accurate, she ended it the first time not me.  Yes i should have waited before seeking comfort elsewhere.  But I dont know how to break us from this cycle we are in.

[Notwendy]

Reactivity though is an important lesson I work on. It is one of the ideas in the ACA group I participate in that resonated with me. As a result of personal work, we become "actors rather than reactors."

It made me think about how much control we give others when we react to them, rather than according to our own feelings, boundaries, and values.

She reacted to you by saying she was breaking up and going back to her ex. You reacted to her by meeting up with someone else. In this sense, the initiative is the other person.

However, if we are responsible for our behaviors- then, she broke up with you, and being broken up, you met up with someone else. Neither is really a "wrong" thing to do. You both made decisions.

I learned too, not to be so emotionally triggered by what someone says to me. And it has helped to not be so reactive. I know that BPD is a mental illness that makes this harder to do, but we can work on our end of it  

[Oncebitten]

How do I work through her feelings that I am in love with this other woman?  I'm not, never was, if I was id go be with her but Im not.

[Notwendy]

One Bitten, I don't know how to break that cycle either. It's an individual thing. It takes a lot of personal work and also dealing with some fear, as changing the dynamics risks losing the relationship. It doesn't mean ending it on your part. What it means is that, if one sets a boundary, the other person has a choice, to accept it or not. That is scary.

For instance, if you say, you have done all you can do to apologize, fix the situation but you can not turn back time and undo what you did. It happened and you can't change that.

Then, she has the choice- to accept this or decide that she isn't able to trust you. ( I think she has done this to some extent)

Now, you have the choice to say that just friends isn't enough- and not be friends and risk losing her, which is where you are now, or to pursue that constant attempt to fix her feelings about something that you can't undo.

The feelings now are hers. She has to work through her fears about the other woman. I don't know what more you can do.

This is scary. By still trying, you have an emotional connection to her, and she to you. These loops are fueled by emotions.

For now, maybe the honest truth is that, you want the loop because it is the way to hang on to what may be left between you.

Where you are is where you are and it will stay that way possibly until one of you changes, but you don't want it to be you at the moment.

No judgement here-  I think this is part of radical acceptance- letting ourselves feel what we do. I guess if you want to keep trying to prove you have no feelings for the other woman, you can do that until it either works or you have tried all you can.

[Oncebitten]

I love her and I can admit that I am scared to lose her.  I have done nothing but apologize and try to right my wrongs.  I will  pay whatever penance necessary I guess I just want to know what it is

[Notwendy]

I think whatever penance that is is up to her. Maybe you could ask her, if you haven't already- what does she need from you?

Or - you also have the choice to say you have suffered enough for this slight, but that is not a step you wish to take at this moment.

I feel for you. It is a tough place to be in. Just know that even thought there are suggestions and advice on this thread, none of it is meant to be unsupportive for where you are in the moment. I think it is something that will take the course it takes, and is not predicable for any two people.

Self care is a good thing. Take care of yourself through this.

[Oncebitten]

I ask her and she tells me I should know.

Its insulting her that I ask

[Notwendy]

Mind reading is not one of our superpowers.

Leaves you to choose to keep trying to reach an invisible bar, or decide that you don't wish to do that.

I can't read her mind but honestly, if someone with these inclinations held the key to someone's heart and knew that it would work to make them do whatever it takes to make them happy, what incentive would that person have to give that up?

I think this loop ends when you have had enough of being on the hook for something you can not change the past over whether or not you are in a relationship with her. I know you love her, but do you really want to be paying an unknown, seemingly endless penance for what you did?

[Notwendy]

I faced a similar situation in my marriage, not over cheating ( I didn't cheat ) but if my H was upset over something, he would do the silent treatment for days. I would plead, beg, anything to make things ok, ask what was wrong, and he wouldn't tell me. It felt terrible.

Then, I realized the ST worked to get a lot of pleading, begging, and fixing whatever was wrong ( that I didn't have a clue about) . The ST only stopped when it started working, and to do that, I had to stop pleading, begging,

"please tell me what is wrong honey"

Finally, I decided, he is a grown man, he can use words like the rest of us do. If he is upset over something, or needs me to do something to fix it- it isn't my responsibility to guess, it is his responsibility to tell me what it is.

[Notwendy]

OB do you think this loop is also repeated in your own FOO? That it somehow feels right to you because it is familiar?

Doing the "unforgivable" was a frequent theme in my FOO. I don't think I did anything unforgivable, ( I was a kid) but in the absence of something actually unforgivable ,this idea just landed on something I did or didn't do ( that I somehow was supposed to know to do and didn't know). So, my parents would get angry at me, and I would panic to be forgiven.

When my H did this kind of thing, it triggered me into the same loop- because it was a familiar loop.

Perhaps this is a key to your situation?

[Oncebitten]

NW

Yeah I think the loop is perpetuated by me.  I allow her to play victim and pile guilt upon me.  Even after one issue is resolved she finds another.  Its like im in a hole and she keeps telling me to dig my way out

[FallBack!Monster]

My ex and I have been trying to work through a very bad time in our r/s for weeks now.   But she cant get past the damage I did.  She tells me now that all she can accept it my friendship and that is all she is willing to give me.
Thats not what I want.  She tells me that she is still in love with me but cant be in a r/s with me bc she doesn't trust me any more.
Do I be her friend and hope that we can rekindle what we had? 
Is she doing this because she wants that back and isnt ready?
Is she essentially using me to get over me?  Keeping me around for love and support until she finds someone else?
Wants me around to keep tabs on me? So confused... .and lost.

My ex must  bein full in blown NPD mode.  I received this msg 2 seconds after telling me we should remain friendly. I don't know what it all means but whateverSss.

He says, no friendship no nothing?
No no no this is all wrong. I did every dumb thing I was told, and see?  I Believed what perfect strangers or not, where telling me to do and now I'm 'mo crazy. How can you and how dare you let them tell you what to do with me and you.  Let me guess... .nvm. . How dare you dump my special love. Friends can't tell friends who to have sex with and impossible for one of us to be so sick thought you could do it, but wanted to limit me. We were connected by my bright light in my soul. I was never in the dark. I was in denial. This is not a Fairy Tail anymore. Its a disaster. This was our lives but I guess you didn't need me.
I talked a lot of garbage. No regrets except one.

My mouth was too coward to let out... .all I had wanted to do and all i had wanted to say was, ... .
forget the know it alls. Only you and I know how we felt together. They don't know. All I wanted to say when the 40 Sunday. come let me kiss you all over your face, cheeks, back, neck, in an attempt to take it all away. Past, present, future. You lost again.  BIG TIME!

Then he goes back and jumps to... .
I waited. I Never slept with anyone else for a whole. But I think it's time for me to close my heart to you. You seen my inside and you never got to love me. I have nothing else to show. Why do Lisa, consuelo and them, have to win every time? Why?   ... .…... I have no clue who "them is".

To the beat!

[gresmunkie]

OB
I believe a major obstacle here is in what you said about 'being scared to lose her'. Yes you love her, and I think our natural reaction to the thought of losing someone/something you love is always 'feeling scared'. However I think especially in a relationship with a pwBPD it is crucial that you must be ok with walking away or even letting her walk away and knowing you can survive without her. Particularly in a situation where I feel you should set a boundary about not staying friends if you still desire a relationship with her.  If she stays/returns and knows that you believe that you can survive without her or anyone else, it may ultimately what keeps you together IMO.

[FallBack!Monster]

 
Being afraid of knowing that their r/s was about to change doesn't exactly say that OB cannot survive or live w/o. It could be look at fear of the unknown.  That's how I wld look at it.
In is strong bc he seems to know what he wants and doesn't want.
Doesn't that make more sense rather than looking at it from a dramatic stand point?

OB is going to make the right choice for self. I have faith.

[once removed]

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