Is this cheating?

[tell_me_no_lies]

I've been checking this site for a while now and have gleaned some valuable information from the strong people who share their stories and offer support to others. I've never posted anything until now but I figured I should invite some outside interpretation to the thoughts and concerns that have been swimming around in my head.

The back story:

My wife and I have been married for two years (I'm 30, she's 28). Prior to that we dated  for less than a year. I've dated a lot in my life and have met enough people to know that from day one there was something special about her and about us. She was upfront that she had a therapist and was on medication to help her with depression/mood swings/possible chemical imbalance, although she has never admitted to being diagnosed with anything specific.  For the most part our dating, engagement, and early marriage were a blissful time. There were a few wild moments, but nothing which I didn't chalk up to stress/anxiety attacks from someone who just might not have the normal emotional filter to shrug some stuff off.

As time went on she began to show more and more symptoms of BPD. Text book stuff that led me here in the first place, but this post is not about any of those incidences. The thing that concerns me the most is her lack of self esteem. She is the type of person that constantly seeks the approval of other people. As a teenager she had a online journal with thousands of followers. As an even younger teen she would hang out with her older brother's friends and sneak into bars to flirt with older men and then reveal her age just to mess with them. She dated a lot as well, and was in a couple emotionally and physically abusive relationships in her mid 20s. She's the type of person that has 1300 facebook friends, 1000 twitter followers, etc. She enjoys sharing her thoughts and life publicly and the positive reinforcement that comes back her way. She's headstrong, quick witted, with a biting sense of humor and can strike up a conversation with anyone. Men are easily smitten, women too but it's not like she flirts with them or gives them false hope, there is just something about her. Like 'There's Something About Mary'... . there is something about my wife. She's a professional photographer and is always interacting with people and I think that is part of the reason she has such strong social skills. It's like she has confidence in carrying herself, but inside she needs constant validation.

A few months after we were married we decided to move overseas to a city in which we knew absolutely no one. We liked the idea of having an adventure, moving across the world for a year or two, and for professional reasons it made a lot of sense. Flash forward a year later. We are living in a foreign country in a city where it is very difficult to make actual friends. I've got an intense job with 50-60hrs a week. My wife is working as a photographer but is on an assignment schedule only. This means she is on call during the day and hangs out at home between shoots. Sometimes she may only have one assignment a day, sometimes zero, sometimes 3 or 4. She's bored a lot of the time and given the nature of her work she doesn't have any colleagues she deals with in person on the day to day.  Most of her human reaction is with the subjects she shoots or with me when I get home in the evening.

Sorry for the long intro, I just wanted to provide as accurate a back up story as I could. Maybe our strange situation of having no family, no real friends, no one but each other is the reason for a lot of our problems.


But here's my question:

I found out my wife had befriended a random guy, went for coffee with him once, and swapped several dozen texts over the span of 5 months. She never came out and told me, I had to ask.

He's an agent at the car rental place (we have a long term rental.). The guy was helping her, they struck up a conversation and then he randomly texts her. This persists for a couple of months and she's been returning to the agency periodically to have the car checked and get paperwork for her expenses, and then he asks if she wants to grab coffee. She claims to me she thought he was only trying to be her friend so she agreed. She gets a weird feeling from him and she backs off and they never meet up again.(this is what she told me afterwards) Apparently he hugged her and picked her up off the ground... . They continue to swap a few texts each month for about 4 months and then it fizzles out as she starts to ignore him. He gets offended, starts texting a lot and that's when I start to notice something. She would always shove her phone into her pocket whenever she got a text from his number.

I'm not proud of this but before I asked her about it I checked her phone. I toggled through all the texts. She mentioned to him that she was married, asked him about his friends, his dating life, etc. From her end it seemed like they were just friends but the whole thing seemed so weird and inappropriate. It were his texts that really set me off. They were littered with advances like 'you are so sexy', 'you should come to the club tonight with me without your husband, how many bikinis do you own' 'I want to see you again'... . all these inappropriate topics. In her responses she didn't really engage in those topics, but at no point did she ignore him flat out. I don't know why she would continue texting this person for a few more months after this. She would send him pictures of some of her work, he would go "wow that's great blah blah". Then the guy sends her a pic of himself flexing- Early thirties, jacked, looks like a wwf wrestler. It's not that I'm intimidated by this, I'm a big guy myself, but it just adds a different component to the whole situation.

Like if he was unattractive, I could swallow the 'friendship' thing a lot easier but all I can think is that maybe she went on that coffee date because she wanted to cheat and maybe backed out, maybe she strung him along because she wasn't sure in the end, I don't know. Am I over reacting? Do I have a right to be upset? Is my skin just not thick enough? I was wrong to check her phone and not tell her and I know I am far from perfect, and I don't for a second think that all of our difficulties are due to her condition only. But I think I'm a good husband, and I'm as loyal as a rock. She's apologized and said that she messed up. She promised to never keep something like this from me again, but there was something about her apology that didn't seem genuine. Like the whole thing was no big deal.

The whole thing has hit me pretty hard, and in the days that immediately followed I had a difficult time feeling and behaving normal. I guess I was acting a bit detached and my wife took notice. Rather than attempting to talk it through she launched into a tirade of "why can't you get over it and stop punishing me!" and "you only care that your ego is hurt"

I'm so confused. I don't even know who the victim is.

Sorry so long, I just needed to get my thoughts out. Any help or isight would be greatly appreciated. Thank you to those who read to the end.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Chosen]

Hi tell_me_no_lies 

Well... you've come to the right place, to learn about BPD, to handle a relationship with a pwBPD.

A short answer to your question: you're uncomfortable with the degree of closeness your wife is exhibiting with another male, and that means it's time to do something about it, whether it fits the textbook rules of cheating or not.  Not that there are textbook rules.

From what I've seen here, this other guy's behaviour is inappropriate, and unacceptable for myself.  To text this type of thing to a married woman is out of line.  But this is not about the other guy, this is about your marriage.  Nobody can predict what you wife would've done had you not looked at the texts and confronted her.  Obviously, checking her phone isn't cool, but then from what you said she doesn't seem sorry either, which is worrying.  In any case, you can’t just leave it to a pwBPD to respect limits.  They may promise you a lot of things, but if there are no consequences, they will keep on doing it.  After all, it is possible that she is feeling desired just to have men admire her, even though she may not want to take it further.  But then again, if she is BPD, then you can’t expect her to change just because you say you don’t like it.  Particularly if she doesn’t see it as a problem.

What you can do now, I think, is to set up boundaries.  Boundaries are “walls” to uphold your value.  What is your value concerning marriage?  What can you accept/ not accept?  Remember, this is a personal value; nobody can tell you that you are “right” or “wrong”. 

[Scout99]

I am so sorry to hear about what you are going through, and I can tell that this must be bothering you quite a lot, just as all things that suddenly happen that makes us question the things in our lives / r/s we thought solid tends to... .

Since this is your first post on the board I wish to welcome you, one newbie to another... . so to speak, (was not so long ago I posted my first note here too).

To your question... . From an outside perspective it is hard to tell whether or not you have reason to be worried that she might cheat in the future or if this is more a sign of her being under stimulated while you are working a lot and she sometimes has to drag her feet at home. (Restlessness is one of the more painful traits for people w BPD... .

And since validation from others is a way to ease some of the pain coming from the void inside, light flirtation seems not to be uncommon... .

The uBPD guy I am dating, or should I say, have a complicated relationship with, can't for instance stop telling me of all girls he finds attractive going to the store or seeing in their cars or meeting at the doctors office or wherever... . But I have come to learn, that they mean absolutely nothing to him on any other level, than that he constantly seems to need to check if he still got it so to speak... . and it gives him validation both ways... . Both from perhaps the response he might get from girls, but also from checking my reaction to it... . It's like he wants to know that I still find him attractive and likes to see if he can light a spark of jealousy in the corner of my eye... .

If he can, then he can calm down for a bit again, and if he can't then he has to start winning me all over again, (take up the hunt, which is his favorite part of a relationship, I assume... . ). Either way it is a winning strategy for him, that gives at both ends... .

Now I'm not saying this applies to your r/s at all! I am just sharing my experience to give you some more perspectives... .

When it comes to your anger or upset, it is my firm belief that just because you are in a r/s with a p w BPD, you are still entitled to your feelings... . and that is all of them. A relationship is about mutuality, and you have to feel the right to vent your feelings with her, or talk to friends or write about it here! It is incredibly important that we don't go burying our feelings just because they have too much of them for all of us... .

However if you want to vent it with her, you might need to think things through as to how you can approach the matter, since logic will not work at all... .

Also you need to put yourself in her shoes and try to see things from her perspective before you talk to her, since her perception of reality differs a lot from yours to begin with... .

Firstly my guess is that she really thinks of herself as of how good she has been to be able to stay away from engaging in any flirting herself with him, (even if maintaining the contact in itself might seem flirtatious in a way). But to her that contact might fill a completely different need than pure flirtation. She might like I wrote before, just be out for some serious validation, and again, that goes both ways... . She gets attention from car rental guy, but also from knowing you feel jealous and again also from herself being a "good girl" who doesn't cross the line... . ?

Like chosen writes, the car rental guy's behavior is inappropriate... . He is flirting with a customers wife... . Maybe you should terminate the contract with the firm and rent your long term care elsewhere?

A question for you... . What is her situation with care for her condition(s) at the moment? Is she on medication? Does she have any contact with therapy or something equal... . ? Being lonely and away from home on an adventure like that would be hard on any person with BPD and without a safety net things tend to land on the partners lap... . and the risk increases that problems in r/s might occur... .

I am sure that the way more experienced people her will give you lots of great advice on what to do... . But here is my thoughts anyway.

Best wishes

scout99

[tell_me_no_lies]

Dear Chosen, Thank you very much for the advice. It's been over a month since I confronted her and I can't get it out of my mind. Initially I felt relief that it wasn't a true affair or that there wasn't any physical component, but as time went on, the dishonesty is what began to eat away at me. She knows how much I care for her and how much something like this would bother me but she continued to let it happen anyway and I can't help but feel betrayed. I  mean, we just have each other over here where we live and we're pretty honest and open about everything else. I've never been a jealous guy in past relationships, but this is my marriage and I help but take things differently now.  She gave me the guy's phone number and I ended up calling him. I told him he was inappropriate and to cease all contact with my wife. My wife thanked me for helping get the guy off her back- since she had stopped responding to his texts he was coming on strong. But honestly I don't know what would of happened or where things would have went if I never asked her about it.

When I said in my first post that her apology didn't seem genuine, what I meant was that at the time when she first came clean she seemed upset that I was hurt and repeated over and over that she would never cheat on me. But then it all got turned around- she's the one who requested that I call the guy to tell him to stop. She made it sound like she was sort of a helpless victim in all of it. That's what didn't sit well with me like she didn't really take responsibility. She made it sound like she wasn't in control and all she owned up to was that she is bad at judging character and didn't know that the guy had non-platonic intentions before it was too late.

I really don't know what is going to happen here. Time heals all wounds I guess. I've set my boundaries on infidelity and 'secret friends' and have made it very clear that if it happens again that would be it. I just don't know if I can trust her again, or at least not for a while. I don't know how long it will take for me to feel comfortable or normal again. If the situation were reversed and I had done this to her, my god how the outcome would have been different! I'd be probably be posting on the 'detaching' message board... .

[tell_me_no_lies]

Dear Scout,

Thank you very much for your advice and sharing a bit about your situation. To answer your question about my wife's condition: not as good as it used to be. I'm not sure if that's attributed to fact that we live abroad and only have each other,  with no therapist or no medication, or if it is in fact her just coming into herself a bit more as we know each other more and that this is the sort of trend I can expect from here on out. We met less than 3 years ago and it took about 18months for me to see any extreme BPD behavior all of which began after we moved here.

The comments you raised about whether she will cheat in the future or if this is an isolated event given the rather specific circumstances is exactly what I am battling with at the moment. I keep asking myself if this would of happened back home if we had a more rounded life with our family, friends, and the familiarity of just being home. And I don't know. A large part of me thinks it would of happened anyway. That she just can't help herself around anyone who shows her the least bit of attention. But I also think it has something to do with the guy's physical appearance and the taboo'ness of having this secret relationship whether in person or through texts with someone who fawns over her. Like you suggest, maybe she has this need and will always have it that she'll always seek validation from anyone, especially from someone expressing desire for her.

I need to let some time pass and see how I feel later on. I'm very thankful for this forum and at the moment it is my only outlet.

[waverider]

Is your biggest concern the fact that you do not know the absolute truth, and probably never will?

You also know that a pwBPD is capable of duplicity without guilt.

This leaves you with a sense of insecurity without a specific "fact" to hang it on.

[KE151]

Your question, and my answer: yes, it most definitely is cheating as it is secretive, emotional and with sexual tones. If it erodes trust it is cheating. An r/s is between two people, not more.

I think this is quite typical BPD behavior. The circumstances in your case (abroad, new professional situation, your absence due to work) probably provoked her to feel less in control of her feelings. In this situation, a BPD is likely to triangulate to gain traction and soothe her core fears.

If you choose to stay with her in the long run, you must be prepared to live with triangulation.

[tell_me_no_lies]

The worst part is not knowing if this is the first incident, or if it will be the last.

[briefcase]

I went through this too.  My wife began a secretive texting/facebook message "friendship" with her former fiance (after about 20 years of no contact).  I considered it cheating, an emotional affair.  The secrecy and lying really bothered me.  It ate me up too and I ruminated about all the time.  M wife thought I was ridiculous, said she was just friends and that it didn't matter that the other guy was interested in more because she wasn't.  I looked at texts, facebook messages, phone logs, etc., which really made her angry.

In the end, I had laid it on the line with her.  I couldn't live with her doing this and told her so.  I told her that if she had been doing this and had the same type of contact with her ex when we were dating that I would not have proposed and probably would have ended the relationship. 

That seemed to get through, as far as I know she has stopped communication with him. That was over a year ago.  He still occassionally texts or send her a message.  She tells me when he does and does not reply. 

Basically, I had to be clear in my mind where my boundaries were around her "friendship" and comortable with what the possibility that I might have to seperate from my wife or end the marriage.  Once I became clear, and was able to talk to her in terms of what I can and can't live with (as opposed to what she can and can't do), she had a choice to make. 

To be honest, I'm still not completely over it.  There is a real sense of betrayal to this, and its worse when our partners don't validate those feelings (which they don't). 

I feel for you brother.  Get your mind right, in the end, this is really about you and your boundaries.  It's hard when all we really want is for them to stop engaging in inappropriate commincations (from our perspective) and they don't even acknowledge they did anything wrong.   

[jollygreen]

She's triangulating and getting emotional satisfaction from that guy. He tells her things she wants to hear (your sexy, I want to hang out with you) witch is like cocaine to a BPD person. So when she is completely alone is when she hits this guy up with a text for another bump so to speak.

So you'll get upset and not show her as much affection. She'll see this as your ammo against her and that you're controlling her. More text will go on with this other guy because let's face it she strung him along for a reason. You'll bring up the boundary she crossed and how she's not respecting you. She wants to be seen as perfect and will think you don't and will not see her as perfect or trust her again. It will tear her up inside. She will find a reason you are flawed and get it validated from another person. A week will go by where she is amazing to you all the while maybe grabbing a coffee with this new guy a couple times. And then BAM she peaces out like you don't exist and tries to turn you into friends. Then she goes on with the new dude, if it works out she won't talk to you. If it doesn't work out then she'll try to get back with you. And she'll probably text you here and there to string you along just like this other guy right now. The ol' bait and switch. But you won't know for sure about this other dude, she'll just say 'I need time to think.'

That's my twisted opinion. Throw in some jealousy games in there too. Something similar happened to me. I don't know for sure about if she cheated or not (definitely emotionally with another guy that I knew wanted to be with her).

Jolly

[briefcase]

The speculation about what she might or might not do isn't terribly helpful.  Focus on what you can control - which is you and your boundaries. 

[Scout99]

The worst part is not knowing if this is the first incident, or if it will be the last.

I can most certainly relate to that sort of emotional place to suddenly find yourself in when the realization starts to emerge that you are in fact in a r/s with a person who has a severe personality disorder and that said disorder is going to play a perhaps much bigger role in your life than you originally anticipated... .

I think this is a journey that most partners of pwBPD will have to go through when the initial idealization face subsides, which of course depending on individual differences comes sooner or later. And if later of course comes as a much bigger surprise... .

When it happens though it inevitably will force oneself into a process of introspection and investigation as well as evaluation of ones own boundaries and perhaps lack thereof. A process of finding out if one has the right stuff or not to handle being in a relationship where the partners disorder and mental health and state is inevitably going to be a major factor in ones life... .

One that at least I when I had my first r/s with a man with an undiagnosed NPD I could not have anticipated to begin with, like you have, but I could never have imagined the intensity and the level of increase and change in behavior I was in for once he started to show more and more his disordered sides... .

I was then in a much more unbalanced state myself at the time, compared to where I am now, so I had no boundaries whatsoever when it came to him. And I got caught up in the futile dance of trying to get everything back on track and so to speak made it my job to keep him on an even keel... . with the eggshells and all that comes with that... .

Today I have learned my lesson and have gotten much better at creating boundaries for myself and also learning to read the behaviors and choose for instance when to or when not to engage... .

Intense need for validation and appreciation as well as restlessness and worry over change, over abandonment and so on are strong traits for every borderline person. And for some that of course translates into infidelity and other self destructive and r/s destructive behavior. Whereas some turn to other behaviors. Everybody is an individual too, which has to be remembered. Not all people with BPD are alike! And need for validation from outside sources does not necessarily translate into either cheating or infidelity, but can just be a way to sooth worry and discomfort and not be a means for either sexual fantasies nor infatuation... . Which is also important to point out... .

The bottom line though is that you are married to a woman who has a disorder that will make her see and walk through life in a different way from you, which is something she can not really help or snap out of... . And that disorder will be a presence to be reckoned with as a major factor in your relationship... . And that is tough on the person who is the "healthier" party of the r/s... . That is a hard fact to swallow... . But you can do a huge favor to yourself if you can start to learn how to view situations from her point of view... .

In this case her in your eyes indifference to what has happened can probably be interpreted just as a very clear sign that to her this has not been about trying to find a new partner or someone to cheat with... . She has just indulged herself in some connection to some dude that has fed her with validation and perhaps also admiration to begin with. And that has worked for her as a soothing agent when she has been crawling the walls at home in restlessness, while you are away, who is her whole world at the moment, when everything else is new and perhaps in her eyes a bit shaky... . Then the dude has started to want more... . But that has not been what she wanted so she has kept steering away from that and has wanted to keep the dude on the "right" track, that is in her eyes to keep feeding her with validation and something to do on days when she has nothing to do... .

And when it has gotten out of hand she has called it off... .

Actually there are some good points in this story... . She has been able to level with you. She has chosen to follow your wish and end it completely. And she has not raised hell with you for "trying to control her or destroying her life" or whatever can sometimes be expected when a person with BPD starts to dysregulate... . So from where I am standing you have a pretty well functioning r/s all things considered. And that is something to be acknowledged too, even if that is hard when our feelings start to boil and our level of worry rises... .

But what you need to do now, is really to start focusing on you, and deal with your reaction and think it through what that is about in you, not her, that makes this so scary for you... . The sooner you do that the stronger and more in balance you will be about her. And the better you will be able to deal with the things that may come up in her disorder.

And hopefully, (even though I of course can't make any promises), you are not headed into a territory or cheating and so on... . From where I am standing and what you have been writing, it doesn't seem like you are... . But maybe you are headed into a period where the symptoms of her disorder flares up a bit more, and perhaps there are things the two of you can do to get some help with that, by seeking out a good psychiatrist or a therapist where you live for her... .

Best Wishes

scout99

[jollygreen]

Sorry for my post earlier i did not mean to speculate. That was more of my personal situation as an example. Just trying to help. I like to hear scenarios from other people's experiences.

[waverider]

At the end of the day, whether it be cheating or any other sort of behavior, if it produces a feeling of "illness" in you, for want of a better word,  then something needs to change. Either you learning to not let whatever it is bother you, or by you creating boundaries so that it no longer happens. It may happen that attempts to cease a behavior may drive it further underground resulting in you feeling more ill at ease.

This is why the boundary is more about you not being with someone who makes you feel that way rather than specific facts or actions. ie Whether you feel as though you can trust or not.

Your own feelings are real and valid and you have every right to feel reassured, and to avoid being guilted into feeling you are the one who is being unfair by trying to control them.

Feelings are real, whether the facts they are based on justify them or not. They can't be ignored or they will cause resentment. Resentment is the relationship killier

[Chosen]

This is why the boundary is more about you not being with someone who makes you feel that way rather than specific facts or actions. ie Whether you feel as though you can trust or not.

Your own feelings are real and valid and you have every right to feel reassured, and to avoid being guilted into feeling you are the one who is being unfair by trying to control them.

Feelings are real, whether the facts they are based on justify them or not. They can't be ignored or they will cause resentment. Resentment is the relationship killier

It may not be helpful to overthink on what she did or not do.  Of course you will have to trust that what she said this time is true, if you want to go forward in the relationship.  What becomes important is how to prevent it from happening again.  What boundaries are you able to take so as not to destroy the trust between you two?  It is worth sitting down to have a think because if something similar happens again, you can't keep telling yourself "I shouldn't feel upset", because you do.  And this does no good for the marriage.

[tell_me_no_lies]

I don't think I can take this in the long run. Just two years into marriage and already with secret male friendships and months of lies.

[rj47]

I don't think I can take this in the long run. Just two years into marriage and already with secret male friendships and months of lies.

I'm sorry I missed this interchange. My BPDw of 25 years pursued an old HS boyfriend from when she was 17 by e-mail and FB interchanges about a year ago. I found out about it by accident but have most of their communications. The near desperation of her pursuit of him and the disparaging things she said about me hurt far more than if she had been in a one night stand.

She's in the slow-burn period of an episode as I type this. Before this weekend starts she'll likely accuse me of being controlling by not allowing her to have friends. She will refer to the guy as her only example of the control. Its as if the affair with him never happened. When he didn't respond to her overtures last year (I so wish he had) he became the devil incarnate for a time. Now he's just some schmuck she knew from HS that is friends with many of her FB friends. Its quite amazing how they can completely disassociate. 

For many years she ground me into the dirt. No more. Whenever she mentions how much attention she gets from men or how much better they all are than me I offer to help her find Mr Right. I've failed at almost every coping strategy there is for handling a BPDw except for this one thing. Maybe I'm still being played and just don't know it. Nevertheless, I don't know what I don't know, but am paying close attention. I keep a bag packed in my car and maintain separate bank accounts as a protection.

I've been at this a very very long time. I love the woman I once knew. I don't trust for an instant the thing she has become in spite of when I am again the center of her world for a time. Each time they tear the bandage off, it opens up the festering wound of deceit and betrayal a little more. I will never fully recover from those events... . and unfortunately, she can never begin to understand why.

My observation is if the deceit is tolerated it will kill you off quicker than anything else they do. They may not have a functioning conscience, but they should have enough of an intellect to know that actions have consequences.

rj

[Aussie0zborn]

They NEVER accept responsibility for their actions - it's always somebody else's fault. If you insist on holding them to account they will just move on to someone else. 

They will always flirt and usually have one or two guys lingering in the background, usually past lovers or past love interests who have already been worked on and prepared.

Communicating with a man that expresses sexual interest in your wife is not acceptable, even if she is ignoring his sexual advances.  By keeping in contact, the guy just tries harder and boosts her ego. My BPD wife did exactly this and it drove the guy crazy, just wanting her more.  Eventually she asked for a photo and that's where I put a stop to it. By ignoring the sexual advances, they are simply working the guy up and taking control - it's not out of respect for their spouse.

[tell_me_no_lies]

They NEVER accept responsibility for their actions - it's always somebody else's fault.

That's why this is so difficult for me to understand. If I were mistreating her or neglecting our relationship and she acted out at least I could identify what went wrong. It could be one of those situations where the cheating actually brings the two people closer together in the end because they recognize the problems and work hard at repairing them, but that isn't the case here. I'm not a perfect husband but I'm very good to her and I put great effort into our relationship and then something like this happens... . I feel hopeless, and that regardless of how good of a spouse I am or try to be there is nothing I can do to prevent something like this from happening again.

[Aussie0zborn]

Yes, you will feel hopeless. As you said above... .

"But then it all got turned around- she's the one who requested that I call the guy to tell him to stop. She made it sound like she was sort of a helpless victim in all of it. That's what didn't sit well with me like she didn't really take responsibility"

The usual story - she made the mess and you had to clean it up. Have you wondered why she told you simply because you asked her? I would suggest she was ready to make you fret so she had no hesitation in telling you so that you show her more attention.  When she feels you should be showing even more attention, it will happen again.  They often volunteer this information quite easily when asked - and even when not asked and  they just love to tell you about it.

Could this have been a very light "___ test" to see how much crap you will take? She wasn't really pushing this guy or stringing him along badly. Mine did the same thing but a lot lot worse.

You sound like a great guy and very sensible and I admire your good judgement. I was like you in the beginning but was very quickly confused and not knowing what the hell was going on or when the next guy would appear from. I ended up chasing my tail as inhad no idea about BPD.

You can make this a boundary but like all boundaries they often resent it simply because you don't like it.

[MaybeSo]

I don't want to bum anyone out, but my ex has been in T for 8 years and has improved in a lot of areas, but needing attention from other women seems to be where the rubber hits the road.

I tried everything. Everything. My last effort was to be completely open and honest, and trust him fully to do the right thing. He could not point to me in any manner as controlling, cause I was completely hands-off. We were very sexual, so it's not like his needs as a man were not met. We had fun together, we have tons in common, and I know he loves me and values me in his own way. And still, he ended up seducing yet another woman!

In our early days together when we lived together and were engaged to be married, and I'd find emails or see "atmosphere" developing between him and another woman, I would be upset. I'd try to instill boundaries and would be accused of being jealous and controlling.

Many times, the flirtation or emotional affair would end and then he would paint the other woman as the trouble maker, and himself as just the innocent victim. But, I saw written communications and I know his style... . he is forever sending women mixed messages. If I were the other woman, I'd think 1-this guy is either single or with someone who isn't taking care of him well 2- and he is totally into me!

Oh, and, yes, in the past, his crushes on other women were often cultivated by hinting that I was not a nice gf. I'm not perfect but I was always very good to him.

This is just how he rolls.

I have tried everything including giving some intellectual thought to an open relationship but

I'm really just not that kind of person, and, it wouldnt solve the problem, anyway. If I

shared him with another woman, I think she and I would both get the same treatment.

My ex NEEDS to have attention and to cultivate those heady initial stages of romance with someone new. He likes having me as his constant... . so he is never alone, but he wants to wander off and fall in love and have peak experiences with others, too. If you get all upset and fight for him, that's even better... . he loved the 3 years of drama when I was really hurting and confused and didn't realize this is just how he rolls, no natter what I did.

So, I'm not with him cause this happened again, only this time, it got a big yawn from me. I'm so bored of this pattern. I think this stuff is especially hard for a person to change. It is like an addiction, and 1/2 of the population is your drug of choice.

My ex is 50 now. I suppose he will keep rolling this way until he's in a rest home, and even then... . I'm sure will be flirting with all the female staff. At that stage of life, it's pretty harmless, but, it doesn't work so well if you want a stable, committed relationship.

It is what it is.

[rj47]

"But then it all got turned around- she's the one who requested that I call the guy to tell him to stop. She made it sound like she was sort of a helpless victim in all of it. That's what didn't sit well with me like she didn't really take responsibility"

Know and remember the details down to dates, times and the things they say. My BPDw was getting calls twice a day from a younger man that had worked with her for a time. She was open about him and protested greatly about why he felt he could say things to her, as in "I didn't do anything!" She asked me to pick up his phone call some morning when a text or call came in. I missed his calls for a week, then in frustration finally texted him back with a fairly nasty message from her phone. The calls stopped, he unfriended her immediately and she never heard from him again.

Of course they never do anything to encourage predatory behavior by other men; they are clueless as to why; and, they almost always attempt to change the narrative about the events later.

A recent episode ended a few days ago. For at least the 30th time, I had to hear about all the friends she's given up for me over the years. I had forgotten about one guy until she mentioned him as one of those friends she gave up. I had a few of the strange texts she had forwarded to me saved on my phone. Opening them up and showing them to her; I asked, "am I to be grateful or guilty that you gave this friend up for me? ... . cause neither works". They melt down, deny and deflect... . even confronted with their own words.

Emotions = Facts... . to the BPD.

Without anchoring yourself to reality and backing it with undeniable facts, their gas-lighting efforts will almost always turn you from the truth. Many of us "nons" don't want to hold onto painful memories thereby allowing them a free hand to redraft them into new narratives to fit their distorted views and keep you on the defensive.

[A Dad]

If your dream is to live your life faithfully with one person, give your children an intact home, do great things with your life and grow old together watching your children bloom into the people they should be, I advice you to run.

If moving to a new place has placed this kind of stress on your relationship, can you imagine what will happen when you have children? At least, do not have any children, until you are really really sure that you guys can stay together.

My 2 c. Hope this helps.

[Skip]

Let's be very careful to not over generalize - people with BPD don't always do anything - everyone is unique and every relationship is unique which is why we have a messageboard rather than a wiki-board.    

Yes, insecure people or people with rejection anxieties tend to keep escape hatches and its important to know this and know and why. This is true way beyond the 6% of the population with BPD.  And open hatches are a threat to the relationship.

I've got an intense job with 50-60hrs a week. My wife is working as a photographer but is on an assignment schedule only. This means she is on call during the day and hangs out at home between shoots. Sometimes she may only have one assignment a day, sometimes zero, sometimes 3 or 4. She's bored a lot of the time and given the nature of her work she doesn't have any colleagues she deals with in person on the day to day.  Most of her human reaction is with the subjects she shoots or with me when I get home in the evening.

This says a lot.  Isolated in a foreign country, no family, no friends, no colleagues, and a husband working 60 hours a week.

This would be a formula for failure in a lot of relationships.

I might suggest that rather than being paralyzed by betrayal right now, reach out and solve this problem.

That's hard, I know because she has betrayed you.  But at the same time, she did not love this guy or sleep with him, so its a misdemeanor. You saw the texts - she wasn't engaging in the sexual banter, she was engaging in the companionship.  And she backed off, and she told you (yes you asked, but... . ), and she let you close the door on the guy.

But you don't want to see an affair develop and you now have seen the warning signs.

What can you do to help her get some female friends?  Is there a club you can join together, hobby or voluntarism, etc.?  Are their married couples you can connect with?

I'd start there.

I'd then move on to explain your values.  Let her know where the line of these values is (boundaries) and how I will respond to it - and be prepared to do it.  

I think all of these pieces have to be worked together.

And yes, I would be hurt by what has happened, too.

[slimmiller]

I have little to add from what has been said here. From How my relationship imploded, it was very similiar BUT... .

Is she willing to go to counsleing of any kind? I know you said you are in a foreign country and all and that would certainly complicate it doing that. I think if she is willing then there are some very good and real chances for some real improvement and rebuilding of trust. I dont believe for a second that one is not capable to make some headway in improving from BPD or any PD if they are willing. Maybe a third party/counsler could help with the whole boundary issue.

In my relationship I too had thought that boundaries meant to her as they did me but they didnt. I never thought I had to verbalize them. Big mistake on my part. They are essential and you have showed her that to be true so she now knows. Question is is how much is she willing to prove that rather then just say it.

Unfortunately in BPD actions are much better evidence then words

[Alfalffasgirl]

Simple answer is YES I do believe this is cheating. Anytime secrets are kept it is cheating and that can apply to having a secret friendship to charging items to your joint account and keeping it a secret. If information is hidden it is hurting your relationship... . you know the old saying... .

HE WHO HAS NOTHING TO HIDE, HIDES NOTHING.

My husband had 2 emotional affairs and one sexual that I now know of. It has scarred our relationship. When I found out about the first emotional affair with a girl from work, he says... . We aren't having an affair, we don't have sex. BUT he felt the need to tell me he was attending a counselor appointment to meet up with her, and to me THAT makes it an affair sex or not. He then wanted me to okay their "friendship" and told me the problem was with my insecurity. I even agreed to this if I could be present when they were hanging out. He said that I couldn't because I didn't demand to hang out with him when he hung out with his guy friends so it shouldn't be required just because she was a girl. I confronted her about the relationship and instead of her saying "yeah I can understand your side", she just broke off the friendship with him. He later admitted that he knew she was attracted to him and he continued the relationship because it made him feel special. The next emotional affair he had was with a co worker... . and the next sexual affair he had was with a co worker... . getting the connection here? When ever he was away from me he needed to be involved with someone who was present where he was. THAT NEED is bigger than they are. I never knew he was having an affair because he told me several times how much he loved me and valued our relationship and what a great person I am to throw me off the track, but when it all came out it nearly destroyed me and getting back that trust after being messed with like that is a very long road. I say IS because even though our relationship is better I don't think I can EVER trust him again finding about the sexual affair the way I did out of a clear blue sky gave me a feeling similar to post traumatic stress disorder that I now have to live with the rest of my life. BUT it also was the thing that exposed his BPD and because of him FINALLY knowing about it, helped him start to try to change his life for the better. So in a way I am grateful.

[lisichka]

This all sounds so familiar to me.

My husband can't live without the attentions of other women, he just can't help it. Since being married he has quit having promiscuos sex with any pretty girl he'd meet, but he still needs pretty girls at his feet whatever environment he goes to. Jobs, groups of friends... . he leads them on and uses them solely to get attention for himself.

But the moment the situation slips out of control, and the girl makes a step that he had not calculated or he had not expected, then he freaks out. The pattern is... . he flirts and plays charming to them, without blatantly asking for sex or an affair. But if the girl does, if she is direct with him, he can be freaked out by the loss of control, and even come to me for comfort, because he will feel taken advantage of.  He can't seem to see how his flirting actually leads girls on. He seems so stupid about it, and of course one of the biggest reasons of our arguments for many years.

Also, something else that he does, that i also read in the first post, he never seems to be able to say a straight and clear NO to the girls who hit on him and he does not want. It's like he likes to keep them around, and they do, for years.

He still gets a lot of messages from his sx's.

[A Dad]

Let's be very careful to not over generalize - people with BPD don't always do anything - everyone is unique and every relationship is unique which is why we have a messageboard rather than a wiki-board.    

Quite right. Sorry, I am in the thick of it so the emotions can run a bit high at times.

In fact, if I had known about BPD sooner I am sure I could have saved my marriage.

[blurry]

Last year, 5 months into our relationship, my uBPDgf broke up with me for 3 weeks for no reason that I could understand, during that time she decided to go sleep with her ex a couple times. Her excuse for doing that after begging and pleading for me to come back was that she thought in her mind that she was totally done with me and would never see me again. Well, for one, it still hurt me terribly and I've never gotten over it, and the broke up with me again about three weeks later, changed her mind and then broke up with me two weeks after that, this time to go online dating and sleeping with another guy off there in no time at all. Again using the same excuse, among others.

Fast forward to right now, 1 year and 6 or 7 breakups since this all started and since she first proposed to me ( were married 5 weeks now and she's been gone for almost 3) guess who she spent the first week she was gone trying to move in with... . the ex she slept with back at the beginning... .

Promiscuity, check, recycling of exes, check, history of cheating her whole adult life, check... . I'm devastated right now and wondering what dialog she had with him between oct when she first went back with him and more recently two or three weeks ago on the very first night she left me, that she was comfortable enough to ask him if her, along with her 5 kids (1 is his, none are mine) can move back in.

[hurtbyboderline]

If your dream is to live your life faithfully with one person, give your children an intact home, do great things with your life and grow old together watching your children bloom into the people they should be, I advice you to run.

If moving to a new place has placed this kind of stress on your relationship, can you imagine what will happen when you have children? At least, do not have any children, until you are really really sure that you guys can stay together.

My 2 c. Hope this helps.

EXCELLENT advice! My BPDGF has cheated & lies with the greatest of ease. I don't mean to be overly negative but my life with my BPDGF has been a disaster. I don't think she'll ever stop cheating & lying & I plan on leaving her soon. The last thing I caught her doing was driving 30 minutes round trip to go to her ex-BF's house at 8 am on a Sunday morning & staying 10 minutes. If anyone here can think of a reason for this visit other than a 'quick-y' I'd like to hear it! I personally don't think they ever quit cheating (if they are cheaters). Plus she erases text messages & phone calls to him. No one here will agree with me but if you want to know what's going on put a spy program on her phone. Depending on her server & type of phone you can see where she is (GPS), read her text messages, see her call logs & in some cases even listen to her calls. I should have RUN after being with her a month! But I was going to fix her! Remember you didn't cause her illness & you can't cure it... .    zzz

[Grey Kitty]

I'll second Skip's recommendation that you and your wife make life changes so that things suit both of you better. Being culturally isolated in another country, with her underemployed and you overworked is a recipe for problems... . BPD or not.

I'd also give her some credit for her own behavior here--she was being pursued and was not responding to the (most) inappropriate parts. She was trying to stay faithful.

It also sounds like you told her that it was really bothering you, and she respected your concerns. Another very good point for her.

Especially if she stays on the right side of this going forward.

I personally had a couple wretched years where my W wouldn't acknowledge that her behavior was cheating... . or that she should stop it!

Good luck! 

GK

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Hydroman]

Sorry to hear you are in this perdicament.  My wife has BPD and did something similar to me.  She met a boy (18 yrs old) in the hospital.  when he got out, he met another woman (40 yrs old) for lunch then they had sex.   My wife and him started talking on the phone, facebooking, having coffee.   One morning, she had left her facebook open and I saw the conversation they were having-completely inappropriate.   My wife says they talk about meds, etc... .  What I saw had nothing to do with meds.   I told her given all our marriage had been through with BPD I was insecure about our relationship and asked her  to put on hold (in the past I trusted her completely).  She refused.  I brought up in marriage counseling.  I had to make an ultimatum.   

People with BPD are, due to the disease, prone to behaving inappropriate but we can make boundries and not let this ruin a marriage.   I agree with you and stop it before it gets out of hand and a full fledge affair.  The only one to get hurt is you.  Be Proactive!