Out of Sight. Out of Mind.

[Leonis]

Or is it?

Two years ago, I made a thread about my broken engagement, which eventually lead to poorer decisions. My last thread before coming back here recently was about the alleged pregnancy by my ex.

After more confusing back and forth between me and her throughout that pregnancy, things only got worse. Looking back, I figured she was most likely being nice and close to me in case her family disowned her for being an unwed mother.

By closeness, she had no problems with intimacy with me and even suggested to stay together for the kid despite not really wanting to be with me.

Things were amicable until her family, her mom in particular, got involved. Sometimes, I wonder if my ex inherited those traits from her mother as she talked about how her parents' marriage was less than ideal and the dad sounded like he's taken a lot of crap.

The custody battle was nasty. I did not expect to get any as we were not married. The child was born premature due to preeclampsia. The basis of her argument was that she was a rape victim.

Fortunately, having records of all our communications, I was not indicted of such crime. However, I only received visitation rights. One of my friends' parents were kind enough to let me use their residence for short visits since I live in another city.

My ex supposedly lives at her parents' place. My attorney feels otherwise, but there is no way to prove it unless I hire a private detective or something.

During the first year, my ex went as far as calling child protective services on me on the grounds of neglecting the baby. There was some difficulty feeding him, but my friends and I all tried our best. At the time, I only had my son for about 6 hours a week.

Needless to say, the social workers found nothing to support the accusation. The funny thing is, my ex actually tried to show my friend's parents how to feed our son, it turned out she had the same challenges. I recall voicing concern one time to her dad one time when I saw him. He told me that the baby eats whenever he feels like it and to not worry.

Of course, when telling my ex this as she blew up in the emails, she started demeaning her own father saying that he's never fed or done much for our son, etc. Since then, he's never spoken to me, but still waves and acknowledges me when I see him.

At one point, my friend's mom showed me an email sent to her by my ex. She had accused me of being a rapist and how my friend is harboring one at their residence. My ex was rebuked by them in the response.

For some time, my ex's mom also tried to bypass important communication by writing notes to my friend's mom instead. This was quickly shutdown by my friend's parents.

My ex and her mom seemed to try their best to get under my skin. Her mom would make comments about how I didn't develop a relationship with my son whenever he is upset during exchanges. Truth was, the little guy gets prissy when he's tired. He has no problem being held by me once we are out on our way.

More recently, her mom started to enforce her version of curbside pickup. I used to do so at the porch, but now she decided to do so strictly at the sidewalk, and had even had cops call me over it. I later realized that it was likely because my ex was near the door watching each time. Part of our court order has this strange clause where we need to stay at least 20 feet away from each other in a "mutual restraining order".

The latest drama involved me overreacting on my own time. I think she was taunting me by writing the message "Jerry + Mom (heart) [our son's name]" on her parents' driveway.

That phrase alone triggered me. I remembered all the terrible things she tried to accuse me of in court, etc. I remembered how she tried her hardest to erase me from the child's life. To be honest, if she never wanted me around, she would have never told me she was pregnant.

But hey, dat child support, right?

Anyways, just ranting along. It's almost as if she couldn't possibly let me go either despite all the limitations now imposed by her family. If there really is a guy dating her right now, I feel bad for him. If it's the same guy I think it is from a little bit of FB stalking, dang...I hope he keeps his kid away.

Part of me fear this is her reaching out with her feelers again. I don't know how far she would go. I kind of doubt she would break the terms of our court order to see me directly.

Coincidentally, the court order is to be reviewed as our son turns 3 next year...I guess whatever she does will change accordingly. Kind of scary.

Some of my friends warn me that she may come back to be impregnated a second time to suck out more resources and watch me suffer. Time to be a hermit, I guess.

[Longterm]

Leonis.

You come across as a really nice and thoughtful guy. I think what's important for you right now is to become titanium. By this I mean you need to try and let all this crap bounce off you. I know it's terribly difficult, I too was accused of all sorts and the parental alienation was very apparent. What saved my relationships with the kids was not reacting, I showed them that no matter what was said and done I would always rise above it. They have a lot of respect for me because of it. Dignity is your friend. Your son is the only thing that matters here and you need to concentrate on that.
ANYTHING you say or do will be used against you and you should be aware of that at all times. Do what the court order says, nothing more, nothing less. By the looks of it you will probably have to deal with this crap for a long time, so it's best to start as you mean to go on. Arguments and issues can only escalate if you participate, don't do it.

As far as out of sight out of mind, who knows? She probably can't let you go. You have a connection now that you will always have. Apart from your son, is it a healthy connection?

[Leonis]

is it a healthy connection?

I don't think it is.

I try to only skulk where it can't be readily seen. So, I'm not too worried about breaking character when I have my son.

But yeah, I don't know if she's let me go or me being delusional. It's hard to say with her. Considering she made mention how our son needed a sibling before he was born, I would imagine she's hoping to bag another man, or else come back to seduce me again.

Living in conservative Utah, though...the chance of latter is not entirely zero.

[Sadly]

Hi
Am not sure I understand the last sentence? You wouldn’t have sex with this woman again would you?

[Leonis]

You wouldn’t have sex with this woman again would you?

I wish I could say it with a definitive no.

I thought I have gotten over her. The recent little episode proves I’m not.

I know very well I shouldn’t be. But, I’m not sure if I’m emotionally prepared should an encounter happens.

[Scarlet Phoenix]

Hi Leonis, I remember you wrote about the writing on the driveway a few days ago. I think you're feeling better about it now?

I know what you mean about not being sure if you would turn her down if she came on to you again. A few months after the break-up with my ex,  we ended up 'friends with benefits' for a while. I initially didn't think I wanted that, but it felt nice to have his attention again, sort of a mini idealisation period. I found it really helpful to go over and over the Ten Beliefs That Can Get You Stuck to help me step out of this. Maybe you can find something helpful in the article. Maybe it's just about processing by writing here, going over it in your head, thinking about what would happen if you do.

[Leonis]

I think you're feeling better about it now?

I am indeed after talking to a friend of mine. He had to remind me that just because she may be in another relationship doesn't mean it's all peaches and roses. The friend alluded to one of his sisters continually having dysfunctional relationships after her first husband. The sister is currently divorcing her third husband and is already dating some other guy. Funnily enough, the two eldest children from her first marriage held things together. They are strong thanks to their father still being there for them.

I hope I will be that sort of influence in my son's life. My ex and her mother are the most toxic members of their family and the struggles between those two are real. Of course, the grandma now has my ex by the ovaries because she watches our son. My ex is presumably living with her parents. I imagine she can't rebel like she did before or she'd face the risk of being kicked out or denied accessible child care. Obviously, coming back to me, the baby's father, is not an option with her mom in control and my ex has burnt most of the bridge with me.

However, I can totally see my ex using me as a desperate means to "run away" from home again. She'd likely be lovey dovey for a while until she's ready to repeat the cycle once again.

The part that ate at me initially was thinking how my ex might have miraculously overcame her issues and somehow landed in a stable relationship. Without any meaningful assistance, that is nearly impossible. She would most likely be on the way to destroy another innocent man's life and perhaps disrupt the child(ren) if he has any.

The selfish part of me feels that if she was able to become "normal", then my son and I were sacrificed for nothing. Instead of going off with someone else, she should have come back and made amends to me and my son. I refuse to be sacrificed for someone else's heaven.

A few months after the break-up with my ex,  we ended up 'friends with benefits' for a while. I initially didn't think I wanted that, but it felt nice to have his attention again, sort of a mini idealisation period.

That's how I got my little one now. I was dumb enough to impregnate her. Of course, looking back, it would seem she had planned it all along and I wasn't thinking with the right head. The sessions were great, but the consequences were total nightmare.

[Longterm]

Your ex may well end up in a long term relationship but it will be far from healthy. He will deal with all the things you did, there is no doubt about it. Maybe on the outside it might look good but it won't be. I predicted everything that would happen in my exes new "relationship" and it all came true. I am yet to read a story where the ex moved on and everything was rainbows and unicorns. The new partner can have all the understanding and knowledge in the world but will still be unable to prevent the cycle, the exes too cannot prevent It, not unless they have intensive therapy for a prolonged period of time. Even then, there is no "cure". They will always have issues.

You are not missing out Leonis.

I hope I will be that sort of influence in my son's life.

Nothing is stopping you.


However, I can totally see my ex using me as a desperate means to "run away" from home again. She'd likely be lovey dovey for a while until she's ready to repeat the cycle once again

My ex wrote me a letter that was I think, 41 pages long telling me how awesome I am and how much she had messed up, how she wanted to renew our marriage vows. 7 days later she was in somebody else's bed.
If I'm honest, I am in agreement with you. I think your ex will try to reconnect at some point.

I refuse to be sacrificed for someone else's heaven.

She is not in heaven. She suffers more than you know. It is important to have compassion, she does not choose to be like this, it's simply who she is. I'm not saying her behaviour is ok because it's very evident the damage done, but it's not her fault.

[Leonis]

She is not in heaven. She suffers more than you know. It is important to have compassion, she does not choose to be like this, it's simply who she is. I'm not saying her behaviour is ok because it's very evident the damage done, but it's not her fault.

Whatever spirituality/religion you believe or practice, I made a promise to myself that if she truly has a mental illness, I would be more than willing to give her a second chance in the next life. Next life. Not this life.

But, you are right. I'm not missing out on much.

[Wicker Man]

She is not in heaven... She suffers more than you know... ...she does not choose to be like this, it's simply who she is...

'Out of Sight Out of Mind' I have spent countless hours trying to fit the behavior of my ex into some semblances of my logic -it didn't work.  I have had to simply accept her emotional challenges causes her perception of the world to vary greatly from my own as well as lack consistency.  We read about cognitive distortion, but I don't think we can really imagine what it feels like.  -imagine not being able to trust how your brain processes the world around you.

'...difficulties with object permanence (or emotional constancy) and time perception... ...Time perception is the subjective experience of time, which is measured by someone’s own perception of the duration of the indefinite and unfolding of events. These things are important when it comes to maintaining friendships and relationships'.   -From themighty.com

...some of these core characteristics of BPD may be on a continuum with the normal population and, impulsivity in particular, may be related to time perception deficits (i.e., a faster subjective sense of time).
excerpt from abstract: Time perception, impulsivity, emotionality, and personality in self-harming borderline personality disorder patients.

I remember my ex talking about time stopping when she suffered from bouts of dysphoria -which is faster subjective sense of time approaching an infinite tempo.  She would self harm (NSSI) to 're-start time'.  I now believe this perceptional time dilation may have had something to do with her raging or 'misbehaving' when I was away from her.  It usually took about two days for the wheels to fly off if I was not physically with her.  I am currently beginning to wonder if part of her delusion about our relationship still continuing comes down to perception of time -for me it has been 18 months.  I am guessing for her now and again we have not been apart that long.

"A prototypical example is episodic memory. Pre-clinical investigations of emotion–episodic memory interactions have shown specific retrograde and anterograde episodic memory changes in response to emotional stimuli. These changes are amygdala dependent and vary as a function of emotional arousal and valence.'
excerpt from abstract: Enhanced emotion-induced amnesia in borderline personality disorder

I believe part of her defense mechanisms cause an editing of her memory which would explain some of our 'opportunities' in our relationship.

My point being when someone with BPD tries to re-engage in a past relationship it might make a lot more senes to them with their cognitive distortion, lack of object consistency, emotional amnesia, and fear of abandonment than it does to us.  As relatively healthy neurotics we likely have a pretty damn good idea of what happened and why the relationship failed -they may not.

As to pain...  When my ex and I were talking about having a home together, which we were to share with her grandparents, my ex wanted everything to be perfect for all of us.  This stress caused her to rage at her grandparents and begin throwing some of their possessions out the window into the street -because 'the things were old and should not be in a new home'.  She loved her grandparents more than anything -It was tragic, pathetic, and excruciatingly painful for everyone -her included. When the rage subsided she is left in the aftermath of their humble apartment now in tatters and her being the cause of the chaos --the result being crushing shame.

@Leonis it is interesting you mention the next life.  My ex tried to explain to me during our final contact about our past lives and how she and I had been trying to get this relationship right through many many lives and we were (are?) destined ultimately to be together.  She said it would take weeks and months to explain this fully and I should fly to Beijing so she could begin...  --This was as real to her and the sun and moon.  

So why rage, cheat, and lie?  I figured it would have been rude and disrespectful to ask...

[Longterm]

When my ex came back it was like she had not been in another relationship. I found this very odd because it was like she was carrying on from where she left off. I asked her about this and she said she didn't feel like she had been in another relationship, that she was there but not really there. That's clear dissociation and I started to think it's really weird and that's how she must of felt for 20yrs. She would often be staring into space and I would have to call her several times before she would snap out of It, on a couple of occasions I would get to the point where I would have to click my fingers in front of her face.

[Leonis]

Funny you guys mention about how they came back as if nothing happened.

The "lazy" part of me did prefer the less dramatic reconciliation.

You guys seemed to like to ask about who your exes slept with during the time they broke things up with you. I didn't even bring up the subject.

Conversely, my ex did after the first time we broke up and after our engagement fell apart. The first time, she was skeptical that she was the first woman I had ever slept with. She claimed that she was a virgin before me, but that did not matter to me as much. It is hard to say when dealing with people in Utah. The religious pressures can make people do unbelievable things to observers from the outside.

The second time, she insists that I had slept with someone else since we broke up because I somehow "did her differently and it felt different", in her own words. Consider I haven't caught any diseases yet, she hasn't been too risqué.

I have heard my ex giving me the spiel of how she didn't like life as it felt miserable, but she carries on because she feels like she needs to put her relatives in a good position (financially and whatnot) before she could no longer take it. Of course, this is also when the suicide idealization comes about. Interestingly, she had also set the arbitrary age of that demise at 28. She's 28 right now and turning 29 this October.

[Wicker Man]

You guys seemed to like to ask about who your exes slept with during the time they broke things up with you. I didn't even bring up the subject.

This is not my case.  I spoke with her about the two times I believed she cheated on us during our relationship.  Once we parted ways I don't want to know -my watch is done. 

I fear her life is going to be a very painful downward spiral unless she gets treatment -which is not easy for cultural and logistical reasons.  I simply cannot stand the idea of watching someone I loved continually make horrible life decisions.  Also... if we were still in contact I could not count on her telling me the truth about what she is doing anyway...  There was actually one thing I really wanted to ask, but by that point in our final conversation I came to believe she was not going to be forthcoming -so I let it go.

I have heard my ex giving me the spiel of how she didn't like life as it felt miserable, but she carries on because she feels like she needs to put her relatives in a good position

I am not convinced this is a spiel.  I heard just about the same thing from my ex.   She stays alive for her grandparent's sake and for the sake of her little brother. --I believed her. 

What are the odds of hearing the same notion in Utah and 太原?  It never ceases to amaze me how much personality disorders are part of the human condition -they know no cultural or language.

She said once since meeting me, for the first time in her life, she cares if she lives or dies.

They really do love fully and deeply... when they love you...  and... then... well... 

[Leonis]

This is not my case.  I spoke with her about the two times I believed she cheated on us during our relationship.  Once we parted ways I don't want to know -my watch is done. 

Pardon me for misreading.  

What are the odds of hearing the same notion in Utah and 太原?  It never ceases to amaze me how much personality disorders are part of the human condition -they know no cultural or language.

Yes, it’s incredible! It does bring me some solace that I’m not the one being crazy observing some of the things I have.

She said once since meeting me, for the first time in her life, she cares if she lives or dies.

I think even my ex mentioned about how she felt I was special when she met me. Whether that meant what it meant or that I was dumb as hell is another matter.

I don’t think my ex was born with these issues. Her parents’ miserable marriage and the way they treat each other and the children probably had huge influences on their children.

She obviously wants to be loved, but she sabotages it whenever it comes close to reality. Then, the projections, libels, slander, etc. They want you, but don’t want you.

The sad part is it’s extremely difficult for us to let go of them. I recall my ex telling me, as if I’m a moment of lucidity, “I’m not good for you, Leonis” before the emergency c-section. She knows, but the insanity continued once she came to.

[Longterm]

You guys seemed to like to ask about who your exes slept with during the time they broke things up with you. I didn't even bring up the subject.

It was not like I didn't know, most of the time it was blatant and she couldn't grasp why I wasn't "happy" for her.

 I came to believe she was not going to be forthcoming

This is exactly where I'm at right now, I think any conversation with her would be pointless after she said all the things she did. A few days before she opted out again I sat her down and asked her specific questions that I already knew the answers to. The lies just rolled off her tongue and I could not tell she was lying. I even said "so that's not a lie no" She grabbed my hands and looked me straight in my eyes and said "everything I have said to you is the truth 100%, I swear on your mom and dads ashes, you need to trust me" These things were not even that relevant, it shocked me and I just sat there not knowing what to say. I knew trust would never be built, the basis of a healthy relationship was missing.

I fear her life is going to be a very painful downward spiral unless she gets treatment

Same here, and it has been a downward spiral since I left.

[Wicker Man]

“I’m not good for you, Leonis”... ...She knows, but the insanity continued ...

Dream Come True was suffering from a near catatonic bout of dysphoria.  I spent hours (on a work night) taking to her until she finally came out of it a bit.  The first words out of her mouth were 'You must leave me -I will destroy you'.  People have told me it was a bid for sympathy -but I believe it was an honest moment of clarity. 

I never saw her faking love, I never saw her 'pretending' to be angry.  Yes -they will tell lies to try to save face --but there is, in my opinion, no governor for their raw emotions.  When they love it is 100% -when they hate it is 100%.

...she felt I was special when she met me. Whether that meant what it meant or that I was dumb as hell is another matter. 

I would bet my last dollar when she first fell in love with you she felt you were the best human being she had ever laid eyes on.  Dream Come True told me when she first saw me I was glowing and everyone around me was grey.  I promise I am not photo-luminescent... (come to think about it I stay out of the Sun and maybe being pasty white had something to do with it... I will think on this further...)

Ironically, during our 'honey moon' phase I agreed with every damn thing she had to say about me.  Not in some fit of narcissism...  She said 'I have never met anyone like you'... Well of course she hadn't!  I was a Westerner who had worked more in the Chinese film industry than she had...  'You are great at your job'...  Well... I am.  I am 3rd generation -my family has been in this stupid business since we were thrown out of Ireland...  'The sex is like I had always dreamed it could be'  Ok... I read somewhere something like 75% of men in China don't know what foreplay is...  When the bar is so low you can trip on it I am a genius by proxy... 

Ok -this is funny...  She, at one point, in a bid for control, withholding sex.  I said it is fine with me either way --I just enjoy spending time with you.  She said 'What?' I said I really don't mind, as much as I enjoy sex with you it is only fun if you want it too...  Poor thing...  I think in the past sex was her sword of Damocles in her relationships. 

She called me Monster (meant as a compliment) because she had never met a person who reacted like me -I didn't yell at her, threaten her, or hit her (very low bar).   I called her 'small devil' which is how one addresses young misbehaving children in China.  She asked if I knew what it meant -I said Yep --if the shoe fits...  She accepted the nickname...

@Longterm wrote  "I knew trust would never be built, the basis of a healthy relationship was missing".

Trust and respect is the foundation on which love must to be built.  Without both there is no hope of a lasting healthy relationship.  At first I thought I was becoming jealous -which I had literally never had a problem with...  It dawned on me it wasn't jealousy, but it was a lack of trust in her.  I have a feeling if I had continued falling down the rabbit hole I would have begun to lose respect for myself.

She obviously wants to be loved, but she sabotages it whenever it comes close to reality.

This is an interesting notion.  I am not sure.  What I saw seemed more about her trying to cope with pain by lashing out either verbally or by seeing other men.  Her breaking us, in retrospect, seemed to be our of fear.  When she felt I was abandoning her she would act out.  I now believe she just could not feel our love when I was not in the same room with her -this 'loss of love' (I believe) translated into her feeling abandoned, a lone, hurt and wronged.  She would then have to deal with the aftermath of her dysfunctional coping.

I did everything I could to support her when I had to be gone.  I left her keepsakes, wrote her notes every morning, and spoke with her on the phone as much as work allowed -but it was not enough to keep her from feeling lost. 

I don't think she was sabotaging, but rather reacting to pain.  We didn't get far enough in for her to fear enmeshment -we were still in the 'honey moon' where we wanted to spend every minute together. 

The sad part is it’s extremely difficult for us to let go of them...

Well... yes... In my case having trouble letting go was due to the cognitive dissonance of hearing one thing and seeing another.  When she spent the night with a mutual acquaintance (I had been away for a week and was due back in a week) I was, at first, upset she took cab home in the morning drunk (not safe for young women).  The idea she slept with this acquaintance was beyond consideration -because she always said all manner of sweet things.  I had never been lied to by someone I loved.  I work with duplicitous people -but they don't, generally speaking, say they love me.

Amor Vincit Omnia got me into a whole pile of trouble.  I believed I was in a fairytale love story and when in such a circumstance then love conquers all right?  (for those keeping score the answer is 'no').

Having met her family further complicated things.  They were incredible and we got on really well.  Her mother has a very strong ShangHai accent -so I could not understand her well.  I now have the suspicion her mother was not all together heathy and may have been the architect of the disaster which is Dream Come True's life.  I know the mother, when her husband left,  attempted suicide in the presence of Dream Come True --she was still a little girl at the time.  Her step father was adorable -such a sweet man... Who had been in the mob.  Maybe one of the more dangerous people I have met -but we got on well. 

...it has been a downward spiral since I left

I am afraid for her.  I don't know what she is up to.  She said she dove into buddhism -maybe there is some solace there for her...  I gathered she is living with a guy she lived with a few years ago -she claimed it was just a friendship...  Naturally...

She is young and there is time for her, but she would need to see the need to change.  With the cognitive distortion I don't know if she knows she is drowning.  She is very unique looking and I am afraid being chased all the time will distract her from ever seeking help.  If I hadn't seen the searing pain she lives with from the outside one might guess she is a free spirit -unfortunately I do not believe this is the case.   

Her best friend asked me 'Do you wish you had never met her?'  I told her 'Unequivocally yes'.   I knew, theoretically, there are people who live in extreme psychic pain -It did not make my life better falling in love with one of these unfortunate few and walking a mile in her shoes.  Iconoclastic and sad.

[Longterm]

but I believe it was an honest moment of clarity.  

I believe you with this as I too believe I have witnessed moments of clarity.

'The sex is like I had always dreamed it could be'  Ok... I read somewhere something like 75% of men in China don't know what foreplay is...  When the bar is so low you can trip on it I am a genius by proxy...  

This made me laugh so hard and I suddenly realised I had not laughed like that in a long while, sad times .

Poor thing...  I think in the past sex was her sword of Damocles in her relationships.

I can relate here.


 I have a feeling if I had continued falling down the rabbit hole I would have begun to lose respect for myself.

This is what happened to me. Although having the break from her did change the way I looked at things. It did take a while for me to stop blaming myself. After a few months I began to look at her behaviour, to really look and try to understand what the hell had happened. I understood how I had enabled and have made conscious efforts to work on my codependancy in everyday life. I'm far from fixed and this is why I am going back to therapy BUT, I was very different around her and she did comment about changes I had made, imo she did not like it and was jealous.
She had/has many issues and in the past she would talk to me about these things and I would run off into fixing mode whilst she did nothing herself to fix her problems. This time round was very different, it was more of a case of her telling me what was up and me saying "Well how do you plan to solve these problems?" She would look at me with a blank expression not knowing what to say because the plan was never to sort out her own problems, the plan was for me to do it for her.

I feel as though I did learning something, and by not taking on the mess she made I showed love and respect to myself.

I kept her very much at arms length and although she hurt me, I feel as though I did not roll over and I'm proud of that fact. She could not beat me down and dominate me as she previously Did, of course when she last messaged me, she said I have not changed, I see that as her trying to plant a seed within me to question myself, to manipulate me into believing I have not made progress. I have, small changes yes, but still changes on the path to rebuilding my self esteem.

'Do you wish you had never met her?'

Yes, me too. The only good thing that came out of it was the kids, I would not give them back.

[Leonis]

Yes, me too. The only good thing that came out of it was the kids, I would not give them back.

Yeah, by that point, it's hard to say you wish you never met them.

I remember having a dream about never meeting my ex. The end of it was panicking about where our child went. When I confronted her (in the dream of course), it was almost like a veil came off of her and she told me "you chose otherwise".

Strange dream, but it is something to think about.

[Wicker Man]

I understand completely cherishing your children.  In fact, the idea of a child was what made me lose all sense and throw myself into the relationship -she said she wanted to have my baby.  I had always wanted to have a family and to have that possibility offered to me seemed like the deepest expression of love -in that moment I believe it was for her too.  You know the term 'Walking on a cloud'?  Well after she told me this for the rest of the day the ground literally felt soft under my feet.

The baby thing is interesting over there.  Her grandparents kept asking if something was wrong because she wasn't pregnant yet -we had only just gotten engaged and my divorce was not yet finalized.  A baby is used to seal a marriage contract -it is compulsory.  The pre-marriage baby request from her grandparents was a bit of a surprise. However... I have always thought we got their blessing, with me being a foreigner and older than she, because they raised her, and knew she was not an easy person^*. I believe they wanted her with someone safe before they passed.  Ultimately we had planned for the four of us to live together (in the house I was to buy them).  It was a lovely plan -it was going to be a hard, but fascinating life -presuming a healthy relationship.  The reality would have likely been life changing and devastating.  I.e. no property rights, Loss of visa, international child custody, likely deportation (working illegally) and so on...  In the light of day my plan seems utterly insane now that I think of it...

^*(A few years ago she tore all the flooring out of their apartment and broke all the tiles out of the kitchen while raging)

As much as I loved her I think it would have been tough on both of us had we had a child... As a parable:  I was cleaning up dishes from lunch and her grandmother said 'Shouldn't she be doing this?'  I said 'No... there is something wrong with her legs.'  Grandmother, now concerned...'Really?' (earnest and trusting people are easy to tease)  I said 'No... she is just lazy.'  She looked up from the (incessant) typing on her phone and said 'Hey!'  I said 'well?...'  and she agreed and went back to the typing.

If sleeping were a sport she would be a gold metal olympian...  Even the Russian judge would have given full marks...

@Longterm -Glad you had a laugh. Hopefully you will have many more in the coming years.

[Longterm]

You know the term 'Walking on a cloud'?  Well after she told me this for the rest of the day the ground literally felt soft under my feet.

Yes I do, I have felt it many times in my marriage. The most intense times were when the kids were born. There is not a feeling like it, it's not walking on a cloud though, it's much more than that, it's a great feeling and I look forward to grandchildren. It's special.

 Ultimately we had planned for the four of us to live together (in the house I was to buy them).  It was a lovely plan -it was going to be a hard, but fascinating life -presuming a healthy relationship.  The reality would have likely been life changing and devastating.  I.e. no property rights, Loss of visa, international child custody, likely deportation (working illegally) and so on...  In the light of day my plan seems utterly insane now that I think of it...


Insane is exactly what I thought when I read it. You don't see it though do you at the time? Once your out of it you tend to look back and think, really? You know you have more common sense than that but you were going along with it anyway, it's not just a bpd that switches off . Me and my ex lived in 6 different houses. She would get depressed, I would say "is it me" and she would say "no, it's this house" and we would move . I have promised myself that now I'm settled in my new place I am not moving ever again.

If sleeping were a sport she would be a gold metal olympian...  Even the Russian judge would have given full marks..

My ex slept a lot, more so the last few years and this continued in my absence, must be caused by emotional distress?

[Wicker Man]

Insane is exactly what I thought when I read it [My plan to blow a hole in my investment portfolio and end life as I knew it]. You don't see it though do you at the time?

My future plan had been based on the supposition of our 'enduring' love for each other.

Contradictions do not exist. Whenever you think you are facing a contradiction, check your premises. You will find that one of them is wrong.
                                                                             --Ayn Rand

Multi-generational living is still common there.  The idea being, the grandparents (or parents) help with the baby and the younger generation help with the grandparents.  Even in the light of day that still sounds nice to me -it had been her idea. 

I told her you don't know what you are asking me (elder care), but I like the idea.  She told her Mom about us living with her grandparents and Mom said 'He is lying'  She told mom what I said about her not understanding elder care... Mom said 'Oh! he isn't lying... he is crazy.'  I had just helped my mom in her last years which culminated in bone cancer -so I knew the dance.

I stand by the notion she evoked fantasy.  The fantasy of fairytales and unicorns (Ironically, the tattoo on her arm) being real.  Being in the film industry I have been steeped in the idea of magical love -we use the idea to tell stories and sell things.  I guess I was not as cynical as I had thought -I believe down deep I wanted love stories to be true. 

While we were together we video called her grandparents every evening and we would spend 20 minutes just laughing.  Every call would start the same -both she and them saying over and over 'Who is this?'

My premise was grossly and mortally flawed.  The love we shared had an expiration date on the pack -which I had neglected to see. 

When she was raging that fateful last week I was working on how to ensure her retirement... She is in her late 20s...  I was preparing a house for sale all day and every evening I was working on -Drivers license, health insurance, a budget for an apartment here, a house there, finalizing divorce and separation of assets (leaving the main house completely off the table so my wife would not have to move) trying to find work (here and there).  The stress was palpable -and... I got to look forward to her raging on the phone every day...  It is quite something when she would lose herself in rage -the empathy she felt was utterly overshadowed in her anger.

I could feel 'us' slipping off the rails.  I offered to drop everything and immediately fly back to be with her -she said 'That would be a waste of money and time'. I knew all of our trouble happened when we were apart -and I could sense we were in big trouble.  Although I didn't, in that moment, realize exactly how much trouble I was in...

She was prescribing a scorched earth policy in ending my divorce.  Even then being swept away and still love struck -I knew what she was telling me was actually how she would approach a divorce. 

^*I believe if on a date your new friend treats a waiter horribly that means you are next...

What a mess I created -so much pain for so many people.

When I left her part of my concern for her was her realizing who and what she pushed out of her life... and if she forgot for a moment her family would reminder her.  I had pity for the loss of 'us' and her having to pick up the pieces and somehow start again. I actually told her half joking once -'...careful I am not the guy you want to lose'... She did...

[Leonis]

Multi-generational living is still common there.  The idea being, the grandparents (or parents) help with the baby and the younger generation help with the grandparents. 

Random thought hit my head as I read through your story.

My child is currently living with the grandparents (my ex's parents). Most of her siblings still more or less live there. It's a strange phenomenon because it is uncommon in the USA.

This also creates an additional layer of problem as her family becomes "united" against me. They believe she has no issues. Never mind of the fact that she told me about how her and her siblings went through some abuses and less than savory times with their parents. Unless they all feed off of each other's lies, I believed them about how their extended families have done some bad stuff, especially to the girls.

The unfortunate situation here is that her family enables her even though they know something is not quite right. In addition, it would appear that my ex's mother is an extremely controlling narcissist. I have had zero face to face interactions with my ex since our custody battle and the grandmother has made every measure to make sure my ex never sees me again.

Can't necessarily blame her. Last time she kept pushing for my ex and I to stop communicating after we broke up our engagement, her daughter winded up pregnant instead. Ex's mom thinks I "preyed" on my ex and always denied that her daughter may have mental issues.

The fortunate thing is at least my son is happy to see the grandparents whenever I bring him back.

[Longterm]

This also creates an additional layer of problem as her family becomes "united" against me. They believe she has no issues.

Family of origin, apples and trees. When me and my ex split I told her family that there was something wrong, that she was mentally ill and I was worried about her. I was branded the "bitter ex" who got what he deserved even though they had praised me for 2 decades. My MIL told me many times that she never worried about my ex because I always looked after her. The family as a whole is now what I describe as dysfunctional, I just never saw it. The acceptance of her behaviour by them really struck me and also the buying of her "story". I was cast out like a dog, I had done many many things for all members of her family. There was only 1 who had my back and that was because he lived with us for 6 months and he knew where the problems were. He always stuck up for me and would not hear a bad word said against me, he told me many times I had done nothing wrong and I was not missing out. The family were like a pack of hyenas on my ass. I told them all what would happen and then I cut them all off. I concentrated on myself and the kids. This family cannot accept criticism and I could write a library about this too. Anything to lay blame at somebody else's door is the go to thing. They have branded me Dr Phil as a last attempt to make me believe I am over reacting when so much devastation, pain and suffering is blatantly visible. One of the reasons why I'm glad she came back is that any thoughts about me being to blame for this catastrophe are surely dead now. She is a liar and a cheat and everybody witnessed it. She told them much of the b.s. she told me about me being her soulmate etc. I spoke to her mom after I last spoke to the ex and said to her "tell me there's nothing wrong.

There is no way out of who did what, no conceivable way to blame me for her infidelity and guess what? It's my fault because I wouldn't sweep it all under the rug, they actually used those words.

Leonis, you will never win, the reason why your exes family can't see what's wrong with your ex is because this is normal to them, apples and trees.

[Leonis]

I was branded the "bitter ex" who got what he deserved even though they had praised me for 2 decades.

There was only 1 who had my back and that was because he lived with us for 6 months and he knew where the problems were.

Ahh yes, the praises all turned into some 180 criticism. I recall the same thing in my case. I went from the guy who put up with my ex's eccentric behaviors to the guy who "manipulated the family to make sure she stays with me". Right...because me, one guy, has such influence over 8 people in her immediate family.

Similarly, her dad seemed to be more sympathetic. He knows there are issues, but is pretty much powerless to stop anything. I feel bad that poor man has put up with all the crazy-making behaviors from his wife and daughters for decades.

He refers to my ex as "stubborn". When the baby came, he did not like the idea of his own wife becoming involved in the matter. He wished I would just take his daughter and newborn grandson far away. Of course, my ex did not want that because she never wanted to leave Utah or leave her home's toxic influence, which enables her behavior.

[Longterm]

Your exes dad could probably tell you a lot of stories  and i would guess he has probably at some point asked himself why he puts up with it.

I could waffle on all day.

It is important though to understand why WE put up with the things we did.

My father died when I was young and as a result I witnessed my mother's depression and thus my white knight was born. Further to this, my grandmother (she who shall not be named) moved in with us and began a tirade of abuse against me, my brothers and my mom. I saw this woman hit my mom several times and me and my brothers were abused regularly too. I still have physical and mental scars. She who shall not be named was a vile creature and when she died I was glad, I have never shed a tear for her. Any who, this is when my people pleaser was born and also my inability to say no.

Our behaviour relates to our childhood, we are products of it and it's important to explore this. As much as my exes family is dysfunctional, so was mine.

We need to learn why we act the way we do so we can grow and build on our own emotional maturity so that we can prevent falling victim to further traumatic relationships.

I can't really make excuses for my recent stupidity after saying that, but damn she was convincing.

[Leonis]

Further to this, my grandmother (she who shall not be named) moved in with us and began a tirade of abuse against me, my brothers and my mom.

That's one thing I believe is different in my scenario. My son is happy to see the grandmother, but I can't say the same thing about her treatment of my ex.

My ex and her siblings told me how vile she was with them when they were young. My ex even talked about how the mom ripped the blanket off of her at night over the holidays and examined her ankles because she suspected that my ex was pregnant (and she was with our child at the time).

I can only imagine my ex has her illness + a controlling mother who now has a leash on her.

The mom has made every effort to make sure I never come in physical contact with my ex again. Of course, they will label that as protecting her from the child's father, who had "raped her repeatedly in the past".

[Longterm]

I could write many libraries about she who shall not be named and the abuse she doled out on her own children, all but 1 moved to the other side of the country and she followed them. My uncle on his deathbed would not see her, god knows what she did to them.

For the best part she treated my kids well but it was always in the back of my mind, I would not leave them alone with her because I knew that her abuse spanned at least 2 generations.

She who shall not be named also separated me and my siblings from our biological father's family, it was her show and she was running it when in essence my upbringing had f#k all to do with her.

I'm getting angry just typing about her, her own mother called her the devil's daughter. I heard she suffered at the end and upon hearing this I smiled, I had no f#ks to give.

[Leonis]

Just for fun.

I read the Exhibits my ex presented during our custody hearing.

Ffs, reading that made me extremely angry.

[Longterm]

You will get bouts of anger when thinking of the ex. It took me about 9mths I think for my anger to come to the surface.

When I get angry I feel disconnected from her and it feels good but as we know, moods go round and round and then I find myself feeling sorry for her. Just lately I'm fighting this and when I start to have these feelings I am talking to myself saying things like "f#k her, look at how she has treated You, get a grip, where is your self respect".

It's difficult but I think that reminding ourselves of poor treatment is the way forward.

[Leonis]

It's difficult but I think that reminding ourselves of poor treatment is the way forward.

It's more than just that too.

I think about how poorly I was treated and labeled, but knowing that she most likely has mental issues, etc. also makes it hard to blame her completely. I wish she would get better and make things right with me.

Then again, that is near impossible in most cases.

Even if she does work out her issues, she may not want to fix things with me. She probably will not abandon our son, but it's more than likely she'd move on to someone else. In which case, I think it's still messed up. That's why I mentioned about being sacrificed for someone else's heaven. Which is, I laid the work and the steps, but someone else came and claimed the prize.

Anyways, I'm going off topic and random ramblings.

It does bother me that she may be dating someone else. It's sad that the only solace I have is that she will royally screw up the next guy as well.

[Longterm]

I think about how poorly I was treated and labeled, but knowing that she most likely has mental issues, etc. also makes it hard to blame her completely. I wish she would get better and make things right with me.

Yes, it is really difficult because I believe they are mostly unaware of most of their behaviour and the effect they have on others. It is extremely difficult to deal with such destruction when you know they did it from a place of incredible inner pain that they did not ask for. BPD imo is incredibly sad but it's not your fault either and that's why we MUST learn to look after ourselves.

 She probably will not abandon our son

I mean this in the most considerate way possible Leonis. You must prepare for any eventuality. I had it all, a gorgeous wife, 4 great kids, I thought things were awesome. Now I have a soon to be ex wife who is on drugs and who lives with a rapist. Children all in therapy or waiting. 3 kids suffer anxiety and depression. Me, completely traumatised, just trying to hold everyone together. I could waffle on and I have. If you would of told me this 10yrs ago I would of laughed at you. BPD knows no boundaries and does not take hostages. Be there for your son the best you can, 1 day he may really need you.


It does bother me that she may be dating someone else. It's sad that the only solace I have is that she will royally screw up the next guy as well.

The cycle will continue, I have witnessed it in all its dysfunctional glory, it is shocking.

[Leonis]

So, I grabbed my son’s medical records today.

My ex put us down as “legally separated” even though we were never married. I guess she’s trying to save face.

More importantly, she wasn’t truthful about our son’s speech development.

That’s okay, I need to visit with the attorney to modify our custody order anyways.

[Leonis]

I have been putting together a case based on the fact my ex has not been truthful about our son's speech impediments. I'm arguing that this is why I need to have custody reviewed so I could take him to evaluations myself.

During this process, my heart sank reading all our communications.

The old feelings came back. The sadness. The frustration. The anger.

It was like opening up old wounds. I looked through our old texts for clues that support my claims. I saw the roller coaster of emotions. The back and forth push/pull with her. Part of me wonder if forcing her to communicate is a good thing for us in the long run. It would be beneficial for our child, but that also opens the door for her to unleash the crazies on me again.

[MeandThee29]

I think about how poorly I was treated and labeled, but knowing that she most likely has mental issues, etc. also makes it hard to blame her completely. I wish she would get better and make things right with me.

Yes, it is really difficult because I believe they are mostly unaware of most of their behaviour and the effect they have on others. It is extremely difficult to deal with such destruction when you know they did it from a place of incredible inner pain that they did not ask for. BPD imo is incredibly sad but it's not your fault either and that's why we MUST learn to look after ourselves.

Accepting it for what it is requires a lot. One of our young adults is doing better but is still iffy at times, and it makes me so angry. She's in therapy, but her foundation was shattered growing up, and it's taking a lot of work to put it back together. I blame myself some for not grasping what was happening, but she's forgiven me. The other one is doing very well overall, but I see cracks at times. Of course I'm struggling myself but am seeing a lot of light lately.

I had vague hopes of a "good divorce" where we could discuss dividing things without slinging mud at each other. Nope.

[Leonis]

Accepting it for what it is requires a lot. One of our young adults is doing better but is still iffy at times, and it makes me so angry.

That's definitely better than family members who refuse to admit that something was wrong.

[MeandThee29]

That's definitely better than family members who refuse to admit that something was wrong.

I don't know how it is at present because I chose to distance myself from them, but his family wasn't on board with my concerns when this all went down. From my perspective, they focused the attention on me versus holding him accountable. It made sense to them, and so that's how they handled it. I accept that. Blood relations come first.

And so it is.  And yes, the therapist said that as long as one parent is operating in reality, they probably will come out OK. That comforts me.

[Leonis]

 And yes, the therapist said that as long as one parent is operating in reality, they probably will come out OK. That comforts me.

That makes me feel much better about my situation too.

[Harri]

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