Mother Now In Skilled Care Facility Permanently

[Turkish]

Hi Parrot,

I've been out of commission due to influenza since Saturday.  D5 got it a day later. She was tested, so I conclude I have it too  (first time in 7 years this badly).  She had a relapse and in taking the 3rd day off this week to watch her tomorrow. 

I only met me aunt twice,  at 4 and 7. We lived halfway across the country in California.  I loved the Midwest lifestyle.  Family. Sunday "dinners" around 2PM. All of my cousins. 

My aunt suffered the same crimes from their dad as did my mom,  but my mom was the baby of the family,  left at home with him for two more years alone. My mom was so much more messed up.  My aunt was a social worker.  She married a college professor.  They carved out a nice middle class life in their home town. 

At 7, I was still 5 years away from my mom's move to the forest and living like it was 1883, but I remember loving the lifestyle and sense of family. To this day,  I still don't have a sense of family and wonder if I'm not messing up my kids.  I want them to be better than me. 

As for seeing my mom,  I was glad to.  I wish she were closer. I feel safe from false abuse accusations.  Sure those pissed me off but she didn't realize what she was doing.  That isn't to excuse her.  I went NC for almost two years to protect myself.  Now is a different story.  I don't think she knew then the implications and now she is lost in hey mind of whatever is going on in her head. 

It's funny that the SW warned me that my mom was so different.  I didn't see it like that when if I was aware of her oddness like the killer son of her roommate.  Maybe I'm so desensitized over the decades due to all of the drama and weirdness that I took it in stride.  All in all,  there's little that rattles me.  Even given the past drama and struggles with me ex,  my childhood inoculated me to deal with drama.

Even so,  I wish I knew what was normal.  Maybe there is no such thing.   

[Kwamina]

To this day,  I still don't have a sense of family and wonder if I'm not messing up my kids.  I want them to be better than me.

Yet when I read your posts I always see you as the rock of the family holding everyone together even when you yourself might not see it. Through all the struggles you still manage to find a way to have some contact with your mother and let your children at least know their grandmother so they'll have memories of her. You manage to co-parent with a BPD ex which is quite challenging, yet you truck on. Even when your ex got married, you still managed to co-parent in a constructive manner. Maybe you don't have a sense of family, but by being who you are I believe you actually have consistently created a sense of family for the people closest to you. (now how's that for some positive parrot spin to your words )

Even so,  I wish I knew what was normal.  Maybe there is no such thing.   

Yeah who knows what normal is, but what I do know is that you are the best wolf I've seen on these boards

[Turkish]

The Medicare agent at the facility called me today.  Whatever therapy they had my mom on is ending on Saturday after which they won't pay for it.  The lady called to let me know.  I told her that my mom had a bank account,  with probably $13k in it now given her $1500/mo social security.  I said that another lady had said they'd help her apply for MediCal to make up the difference.  

She said that the lady that handled that would call me again.  I talked to her last week,  scanned my mom's January bank statement to email her, then I never heard back.  This lady said,  "the money will go quickly,  it's expensive." Yeah,  I know,  it's basically my net  salary per month. My gross of Medicare weren't paying partially,  which is ending.  I told her I had no legal access to my mom's money.  I can't help but be nervous that they're going to come after me.  

If only my mom hadn't gone paranoid and made the criminal accusations against me.  This would be so much easier to handle here rather than 110 miles away.  

Long term care insurance needs to be part of any financial plan.  Medicare,  our socialized medicine for seniors,  only pays for medical stuff,  not long term care. 

[No-One]

Hi Turkish:
Just sharing some info. that could be helpful.

. . . I can't help but be nervous that they're going to come after me.  

Long term care insurance needs to be part of any financial plan.  Medicare,  our socialized medicine for seniors,  only pays for medical stuff,  not long term care. 

The link below, to a page at medicate.gov, might be helpful for you to read.  Medicare Part A does pay for a certain number of days for a skilled nursing facility, during a given benefit period.  A new benefit period can start, under certain circumstances.

I haven't heard about a child being held financially responsible for a parent's medical costs or long-term care.  Only a spouse, with joint assets, would.

https://www.medicare.gov/coverage/skilled-nursing-facility-care.html

[Turkish]

Thanks for the link No-One. The $167/day is what they told me her co-pay was with Medicare and her supplemental insurance.  I can probably get up there to see her with the kids in two weeks.  Despite her accusations which she likely doesn't remember,  I do feel badly for her.  If,  however,  being an RN, she thinks that she is helping to take care of other patients,  then maybe that delusion is good for her. 

[Harri]

Hi Turkish.  Do a search on Filial Responsibility Laws.  The laws are old and seldom enforced but better to be prepared.  California does have such laws so you might want to consult with an elder care lawyer, though again, it is very rare that these laws are enforced.  I would not ask the social worker or anyone at the nursing home about it... .why even give them the idea?

Easy for me to say try not to stress out... .but since it *is* easy I *am* going to say it.  Try not to stress about it.   

[GaGrl]

The Medicare, Medicaid and state laws are so confusing.

I found that my mother could retain a level of personal assets and still qualify for VS widow benefits for caregiving... .not sure if your mother has VA benefits?

On Medicare/Medicaid, I think the recipient has to reach a level of $2500 or so in assets, and they will go back five years to ensure that assets have not been transferred or hidden.I

Then any income (SSI, pension, etc.) Would be diverted to long-term care, with MediCare/Medicaid/state programs picking up the remaindet.

Ask about your state situation... .so confusing!

[Turkish]

Filial responsibility,  ugh. She lived with us,  I didn't ask for a dime.  The extra utilities and food weren't a big deal.  I live below my means (which my ex never liked). It wouldn't be safe for her to come back here. 

My mom married a WW2 vet who had a severe stroke.  Being an RN, she did it in large part to take better care of him as a spousal advocate (I still kick myself for being a jerk and not driving 150 miles to Lake Tahoe for the wedding,  but what's past is past). He died in 2003. I ended up with his social security card for some reason.  This is a point I might enquire upon.

A lady from the nursing home emailed me today,  asking why I hadn't emailed my mom's bank statement after talking to me last week.  I told her that this was the first email I'd received,  then I emailed it.  She said that they tried to run my mom's debit card but it was declined.  I'm not sure what I could do at this point to help, though I asked if my mom was of sound enough mind if they could call the bank.  Then I left work early.  I could check my work email from home,  but I'm not going to.  My weekend with the kids. 

[GaGrl]

OK, then the VA benefits are a possibility. With the SSN, you should be able to get a DD-214 (discharge) form. I believe VA guidelines are a max of about 80I in assets, not counting house and car. And VS will then reimburse about $1400-1500 in care per month (even if not in a facility). I've been told that it takes four months for the reimbursements to start coming in.

It's worth an inquiry.

(I don't know if they go by cost of living... .it's much less in the Southeast than in California!)

[Turkish]

When I wrote that last night I forgot about the properties in her dead husband's name.  The 5 acres was put up for auction by the county.  The 2 acres is still in limbo but not in her name.  Better not to go down that path.  The plan will remain for my buddy too continue to pay the property taxes and try to take adverse possession at some point. His will left both properties too her, then me.  Oh well. 

[Turkish]

I don't know how they got my number but the ambulance company called me.  It was an 800 number so I let it go to voice mail.  She may have more than one ride unpaid for... .like most everything, she had the money but left bills unpaid.  I wonder how much they can come after me?

[Harri]

Yikes!  Okay, I think now is the time to consult with an elder care lawyer.  Just to get some questions answered.  In the meantime, I would not call back (  ) until after getting info.

Do I remember correctly that your mom is a ward of the state?  Who manages her finances now? 

Hang in.  Getting correct information is the first step.  Knowing is so much better than worrying.

[Harri]

Read this:

https://www.agingcare.com/articles/are-children-responsible-for-their-parents-debt-133807.htm

[Turkish]

Good site.  I dug around more. I was going to ask on avvo, but this site seems better.  Scooby Snack for you!

[Harri]

So glad you find it helpful!

Thanks for the snack!

I have time so I can dig for more info if you want me to.  Let me know.

[Turkish]

This latchkey kid is trying to process someone doing something nice for me 

At the very least,  I can enjoy the weekend now.  I'll call them back Monday. 

[Harri]

Let us know how you make out when you do call. 

You took a risk by being vulnerable so good on you!  Lil Turkey, adult Turkish, Turkey-Wolf hybrid, lots of people here care and are willing to step up and help all of you.

Here's to good weekends!

[Harri]

Turkish, here is some more info on filial laws.  Apparently they apply only in cases where the parent receives aid from the state but does NOT qualify for medicaid.  Has your mom's medi-cal application been processed?

Also, I had a thought about the ambulance company.  It is possible they are simply contacting you to get your mothers latest address.  I still would not contact them until I got more info though.

In the meantime here is a quote for a source that I have verified in several different documents on the internet.

Under filial responsibility laws adult children may be required, and held liable, to pay for a parent’s medical bills if certain circumstances exist which are broadly summarized as follows:

~ Parent is receiving financial support from state government
~Parent has accumulated a nursing home or medical bill in the state in which the filial responsibility law exists and cannot pay
~Parent is classified as “indigent” meaning that their expenses exceed social security benefits
~Parent does NOT qualify for Medicaid
~Caregiver has reason to believe that adult child can pay the bill and chooses to sue him/her

Under the various State’s statutes, if a court in one of these filial responsibility states orders that a judgment may be enforced against the adult child, any number of unfortunate legal remedies, such as liens, wage garnishments, and even potential jailtime can be imposed, depending upon your state’s filial responsibility laws.

Exceptions to Filial Support Laws
The good and bad news is that judges have “discretion” when enforcing these filial responsibility laws, and it comes down to a factual inquiry in a court of law. In filial support hearings, the adult child would need to demonstrate that he/she does NOT have adequate funds due to other responsibilities such as student loans, cost of living, medical bills, etc.

It may also be effective if the adult child can show abandonment or other reasons for lack of ongoing relationship with their elderly parents. But proving abandonment is a tall task and requires that the adult child prove various elements, including that the parent abandonment occurred while the adult child was a minor.

Finally, in a filial support hearing before the court, you might be able to offset some of your financial obligation by showing mitigating circumstances that would make it immoral for you to have to pay full support, such as demonstrating prior bad acts by your parents.

[Turkish]

I told my ex some of this today. Should I liquidate by getting a new car? New windows in the house? I have a lot of cash and company stock.  She replied,  "you could transfer that money into my account." Thanks for the support 

I guess I was testing her,  but anticipating the response, no surprise. I did find it funny though. 

[Fie]

Dear Turkish, I am sorry that times are so rough for you. Hang in there ok ?

I think I owe a visit. This is the woman who adopted me,  a handicapped, transracial kid from foster care, as a single mother,  at a time when all three were controversial in the mid 70s.  

I haven't seen anyone else referring to this and I also don't know if you are willing to hear me on this one, but ...

I don't see the link between having been adopted, and having to take bs from someone because of that. I hope you are not forgetting to take care of yourself here ?

[Turkish]

Thanks Fie, you are right.  I'm FOGing myself.  Even so,  I feel badly as she has no one else.  The "replacement" daughters and families all fell away.  I know she's my mother,  but maybe my T had a point when he observed,  related to someone else,  that I was loyal.  That can get you into trouble sans good boundaries,  however.

I'll post the link to myself  

https://bpdfamily.com/content/emotional-blackmail-fear-obligation-and-guilt-fog

Even if my mom wasn't a "controller" per se, I performed many rescues of the Waif. I was communicated about being replaced by other "children" many times who "gave" my mom grandchildren,  or the dynamic thereof.  It's beyond that now given her mental state. I need to work on me. 

[No-One]

I told my ex some of this today. Should I liquidate by getting a new car? New windows in the house? I have a lot of cash and company stock.  She replied,  "you could transfer that money into my account." Thanks for the support 

Turkish:
Your 401K is safe.  From some comments I have read about your adoption, and your history with your mom, you don't have anything to worry about.  If you Google the topic of "filial responsibility", you won't find much case history for California (except for lawyers and insurance companies looking for clients).

I don't think you are the poster child for liberal California going after a child for parental support.  They would surely want to go after someone who is "rolling in the dough". 

The following information could be helpful:

"Re: Protection from Filial Care Lawsuits?
Post  by auntie » Thu May 31, 2012 7:43 pm

It was around 1970 in California when they tried to bill my mom for her indigent father's care. She showed them that he hadn't supported her in her childhood and that seemed to satisfy them."
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"Re: Protection from Filial Care Lawsuits?
Post  by BruceM » Thu May 31, 2012 2:50 pm
What is difficult is getting objective info on one's state filial laws. Googling the topic gives pages of either attorney's who want to generate some legal business, to journalists who want to make things sound as dire as they can to insurers who want you to buy their insurance."
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Re: Protection from Filial Care Lawsuits?
Post  by Mudpuppy » Thu May 31, 2012 11:04 pm

The rules for filial support vary by state. CA has the quoted filial support law, but if you read the FULL section of family code instead of just that one line, you see that one has to go to court and get a filial support order (like a child support order, but for indigent adults). Such a lawsuit can only be initiated by the supported party or a government agency acting on behalf of the supported party. It also exempts people who were abandoned or abused as children or people who would themselves be rendered indigent by the support order. And much like child support, it is a monthly support order, not "pay this bill". So a medical company or nursing home giving care in CA cannot just send a bill to family members.

The main risk for those who have family in CA is either your family suing you for support or Medi-Cal getting so broke that they start filing filial support cases against the adult children. PA on the other hand is a whole other ballgame. Almost anything goes in PA it seems like. I wouldn't base one's risk of having to pay filial support on stories coming out of PA unless one's parents or adult children lived in PA (and then you have my condolences)."

Exceptions to Finding an Adult Child Responsible
There are exceptions to finding an adult child liable for the support of their indigent parent. First, the party seeking enforcement of the filial responsibility laws must establish that the adult is financially able to cover their parent’s expenses. In making this determination, courts consider many factors such as the adult child’s income, responsibilities owed by the adult child to their own family, and the family’s overall financial situation. If forcing an adult child to support his/her parents would render him/her nearly destitute as well, a court would hesitate in enforcing the statute.

A second exception to filial responsibility is if the adult child can prove the parent abandoned them.  Abandonment laws vary from state to state, but to prove abandonment you typically need the following

4404.  In determining the amount to be ordered for support, the court shall consider the following circumstances of each party:
(a) Earning capacity and needs.
(b) Obligations and assets.
(c) Age and health.
(d) Standard of living.
(e) Other factors the court deems just and equitable.
(Enacted by Stats. 1992, Ch. 162, Sec. 10. Operative January 1, 1994.)

[Fie]

I'm FOGing myself.  Even so,  I feel badly as she has no one else.  The "replacement" daughters and families all fell away.  I know she's my mother,  but maybe my T had a point when he observed,  related to someone else,  that I was loyal.  That can get you into trouble sans good boundaries,  however.

And it can get you into the exact same circle that you had somehow escaped a little I believe ?  Your mum's circumstances have changed now, but she's still the same person. Are you sure you suddenly want to go and rescue her again ?

[Turkish]

That's a lot of good info No-One. Thanks.  I hope it never comes to court because I do have savings (I max out my 401 (k), and put 10% of my net into company stock). Still haven't called the ambulance company back. 

Fie, yes,  she still is the same person, even if her mind is going.  She was nice to me when I visited a few weeks ago,  but it seemed like she wasn't quite grasping her situation.   Helping her financially is beyond me now,  short of creditors.  Sorry if I keep coming off as paranoid.  I've spent over two decades overcoming the poverty she had us living to make it beyond anything she could comprehend.

Her little brother, a retried IBM engineer (and a millionaire as my mother told me at the time), refused to loan her $10k in 1984 to save her 25 acres.  I mirrored my mom's feelings at the time.  Family abandoned her.  We ended up homeless.  Living in a cab over camper with county authorities chasing us.  Now,  I get it,  even if he was likely NPDish (other stories my mom told me,  not that).

[Mutt]

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