Help I don't know what to do

[Depression = 72% of members]

Hello everyone.  I honestly don't know what to say or how to say it.  I guess I should start by saying that I believe my wife has BPD.  She has been involved in my life off and on for 9 years.  We had a brief relationship 9 years ago and it ended, but I would always hear back from her randomly for a couple of years.  I won't lie, it was love at first sight for me, but something scared me off about the intensity she felt toward me.  I didn't hear from her for a couple years then out of nowhere one day I got a text from her.  I replied back and that started what I consider our relationship.  It has felt like an emotional rollercoaster, but initially it was mostly a wonderful relationship.

I ended up moving in with her 3 1/2 years ago.   Everything was great for the first 2 years living together.   I always knew she had some type of mental health problems, but I suspected it was anxiety and bipolar disorder.  After living together almost two years she just blew up one day and told me to pack my stuff and get out.  Right then, no time allowed to think about it, no time to plan how to move out.  It was over nothing.  It was so insignificant I can't even remember what she was upset about.  On such short notice I needed help, so I had to text my family.  My mother asked why and I said that "Jane" (not real name) was acting crazy for no reason.  Within a week or so I had moved back in. This was the first time I had really had any fights with her.

Then about 4-6 mths later the same thing happened.  She blew up over something I considered insignificant and kicked my out again.  This time I stayed out, but tried to date her for a couple of mths.  She always wanted me back.  I ended up taking a job out of state, but we had gotten back together not long after.  It was then I learned that during that time she had met someone who was supposedly my best friend and within 30 min of meeting them she slept with him.  I loved her so I told her I could get past that, but she always insisted there was nothing to forgive because during that brief time we were broke up.  

Fast forward a few mths and we had been back on/off over and over again.  She always accused me of lying and cheating, although I never had.  Then once we were broke up for a couple of mths I went on a date with someone else.  It was a disaster because I still loved "Jane".  I got back with "Jane" and admitted I went on a date.  That was a mistake.  That seemed to cause me problems later down the road.

After a little more time we got married.  I married her because I truly love her and chose to deal with her impulsiveness, paranoia, constant accusations, etc.  Because of Covid, I was away in another state waiting for a job to open up close to her.  We would see each other on weekends during this time.  She was constantly going from loving me to hating me.  It seemed to be getting worse.  Her trust of me continued to decline.  She began waking up early and going through my phone.  She would make mountains out of mole hills.  My boss would text me about something work related and she would think I was sleeping with my boss.  If I didn't answer my phone every single time she called it was because I was cheating.   She would always say she heard women in the background and no one would be there.  

I finally got the job transfer and my co-workers had a going away dinner.  It was from 6:00-7:30 after work.  She blew a gasket and accused me of cheating on her because I didn't answer the 50 times she called me during that hour and a half.  

We got a house together after I changed jobs and it was more of the same.  She accused me of lying and cheating constantly.  I was walking on eggshells.  For the record I have been 100% faithful to my wife.  I love her more than anything, but I don't know what to do.  One month ago we were laying in bed and all of the sudden she flew into a fit of rage accusing me of cheating.  She got physical and verbally abusive like she normally does, but since she is only 100 pounds I just deal with it.  Never once have I grabbed her or put a hand on her.   During that fight she just got up and left.   I haven't seen her since.  I got served for divorce last week, but she hasn't spoken to me.  She has me blocked so I can't talk to her.  

It's been really hard on me and I am leaving out tons and tons of stuff.  I broke down last Friday after getting served and ended up in the office of an LCSW for 4 hours.  He told me to get the book "I hate you. Don't leave me".  I also checked out the DSM and she had all 9 criteria for diagnosis.  Sunday night I ended up in the emergency room with heart problems that were stress related.   I ended up getting prescribed beta blockers and Xanax.  

I love my wife dearly.  I just want us to go together and get therapy.  How can she just leave me like that.  I know I described most of the bad, but 90% of the time it was great.  But lately her trust has declined.  Also, my wife is an LCSW.   She has completely cut me off without any way to resolve this or get closure.  

[WorriedHusband]

Hello everyone.  I honestly don't know what to say or how to say it.  I guess I should start by saying that I believe my wife has BPD.  She has been involved in my life off and on for 9 years.  We had a brief relationship 9 years ago and it ended, but I would always hear back from her randomly for a couple of years.  I won't lie, it was love at first sight for me, but something scared me off about the intensity she felt toward me.  I didn't hear from her for a couple years then out of nowhere one day I got a text from her.  I replied back and that started what I consider our relationship.  It has felt like an emotional rollercoaster, but initially it was mostly a wonderful relationship.

I ended up moving in with her 3 1/2 years ago.   Everything was great for the first 2 years living together.   I always knew she had some type of mental health problems, but I suspected it was anxiety and bipolar disorder.  After living together almost two years she just blew up one day and told me to pack my stuff and get out.  Right then, no time allowed to think about it, no time to plan how to move out.  It was over nothing.  It was so insignificant I can't even remember what she was upset about.  On such short notice I needed help, so I had to text my family.  My mother asked why and I said that "Jane" (not real name) was acting crazy for no reason.  Within a week or so I had moved back in. This was the first time I had really had any fights with her.

Then about 4-6 mths later the same thing happened.  She blew up over something I considered insignificant and kicked my out again.  This time I stayed out, but tried to date her for a couple of mths.  She always wanted me back.  I ended up taking a job out of state, but we had gotten back together not long after.  It was then I learned that during that time she had met someone who was supposedly my best friend and within 30 min of meeting them she slept with him.  I loved her so I told her I could get past that, but she always insisted there was nothing to forgive because during that brief time we were broke up.  

Fast forward a few mths and we had been back on/off over and over again.  She always accused me of lying and cheating, although I never had.  Then once we were broke up for a couple of mths I went on a date with someone else.  It was a disaster because I still loved "Jane".  I got back with "Jane" and admitted I went on a date.  That was a mistake.  That seemed to cause me problems later down the road.

After a little more time we got married.  I married her because I truly love her and chose to deal with her impulsiveness, paranoia, constant accusations, etc.  Because of Covid, I was away in another state waiting for a job to open up close to her.  We would see each other on weekends during this time.  She was constantly going from loving me to hating me.  It seemed to be getting worse.  Her trust of me continued to decline.  She began waking up early and going through my phone.  She would make mountains out of mole hills.  My boss would text me about something work related and she would think I was sleeping with my boss.  If I didn't answer my phone every single time she called it was because I was cheating.   She would always say she heard women in the background and no one would be there.  

I finally got the job transfer and my co-workers had a going away dinner.  It was from 6:00-7:30 after work.  She blew a gasket and accused me of cheating on her because I didn't answer the 50 times she called me during that hour and a half.  

We got a house together after I changed jobs and it was more of the same.  She accused me of lying and cheating constantly.  I was walking on eggshells.  For the record I have been 100% faithful to my wife.  I love her more than anything, but I don't know what to do.  One month ago we were laying in bed and all of the sudden she flew into a fit of rage accusing me of cheating.  She got physical and verbally abusive like she normally does, but since she is only 100 pounds I just deal with it.  Never once have I grabbed her or put a hand on her.   During that fight she just got up and left.   I haven't seen her since.  I got served for divorce last week, but she hasn't spoken to me.  She has me blocked so I can't talk to her.  

It's been really hard on me and I am leaving out tons and tons of stuff.  I broke down last Friday after getting served and ended up in the office of an LCSW for 4 hours.  He told me to get the book "I hate you. Don't leave me".  I also checked out the DSM and she had all 9 criteria for diagnosis.  Sunday night I ended up in the emergency room with heart problems that were stress related.   I ended up getting prescribed beta blockers and Xanax.  

I love my wife dearly.  I just want us to go together and get therapy.  How can she just leave me like that.  I know I described most of the bad, but 90% of the time it was great.  But lately her trust has declined.  Also, my wife is an LCSW.   She has completely cut me off without any way to resolve this or get closure.  

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[WorriedHusband]

Something else I should add is that my wife was abandoned by her mother and raised by her father.  She was sexually abused

[WorriedHusband]

Something else I should add is that my wife was abandoned by her mother and raised by her father.  She was sexually abused

I know this all wasn’t worded well. I’ll admit that I am devastated.  I left out so much.    I’m so shocked and hurt that it’s hard for me to get my thoughts together on this. 

She has been baiting me a lot lately trying to get me to fight.  She constantly tears me down and has no remorse about it.  She keeps calling me a narcissist, liar, and cheater. 

The big phrase she always uses is that I’m gaslighting her.  She has a tendency to misremember things and it’s always in her favor. 

Actually this is all pretty new    Our relationship was not this bad until I’d say the past 6-12 mths.  I could see it starting to turn 12-15 mths ago, but it was still good.  Then the last 6mths has been hard. 

I feel like I’m her scapegoat and she won’t take responsibility for anything. I believe if I could get her to talk to me I believe we could repair this.  We could get therapy as a couple. 

My family says I should let her leave.  My therapist that I only recently started seeing has now started leaning that way too.  He thinks I need to worry more about myself at this point.

[WorriedHusband]

I could really use some advice here if anyone can advise me.  I am really lost.  She has been gone now for what will be 5 weeks tomorrow.  I haven't talked to her and she has blocked my.  She has completely detached from me.  I have been served divorce papers and really am lost.  At this point, I think I have lost her for good.  It really sucks to have someone in your life for this long and then poof, one little right over nothing and she is gone.  No closure, no anything.   
I am really worried about her and am starting to accept that I think I have lost her for good.  But I love her so much that I do want her to get help and possible learn to trust.  I have thought about reaching out to her son.  He just graduated with his masters in social work and is doing therapy at the moment, but I don't know if doing that will make it worse or not.

[kells76]

Hey WorriedHusband, welcome to the boards!

Even though this isn't my "home board" (I'm usually over on Family Law), I just wanted you to know that you're seen here, and you're not alone. Others whose "home" is here on Bettering will be along, too.

I hear how much you care for your W and how much you're going through. This isn't how you wanted things to happen, and it's not what you want for her, or you. I hear you trying to sort through what to do in this blindsiding situation, as you deal with your shock, hurt, and devastation.

This is heartbreaking stuff -- the sudden, in a way, change; the break; the departure, the not knowing. My sister's ex-husband had a psychotic break a couple of years ago and disappeared for almost a week. It's so hard not knowing where they are, wondering if they are ok.

My family says I should let her leave.  My therapist that I only recently started seeing has now started leaning that way too.  He thinks I need to worry more about myself at this point.

That's great that you have a therapist for you. How often are you talking with him? What has he suggested in terms of you taking care of you?

From what I've read on these boards, it's not unlikely for your W to perhaps connect with you again. So, don't lose heart. But if and when she does, be the best you that you can be. That could mean learning some new and unintuitive ways of communication. The folks on this board are pros at sharing their knowledge and talking with you about new ways forward. There aren't any guarantees, but because the only person we can control is us, then in relationships we can make changes all on our own that impact the dynamic, whether or not the other person changes.

WH, we are GLAD you are here, despite the grief and pain that brings you. I hope you stick around...

cheers;

kells76

[WorriedHusband]

Thank you for the reply Kells76. 

I was served last Thursday and just broke down.  Luckily I work in the health care field and right beside my office is the social work office.  On Friday, I went over and walked away several times when a gentleman asked if he could help.  He is an LCSW, like my wife, and he spoke with me for 4 hours.  I ended up going back to him Monday for an hour, Wednesday for an hour, and I will be seeing him again tomorrow. 

He was very supportive on Friday or maybe I should say understanding that I want to stay with her.  I'll be honest, I just feel exhausted from all the crying.  Then I ended up in the emergency room Sunday night with extreme tachycardia.  My resting heart rate which is usually in the 60s was up in the 130s and even higher.  Sunday was when I finally broke down and told my family what was going on after leaving them in the dark for the past month.  I know how they feel about her and I didn't want them to think any worse of her if she did come back.  On Monday, I told my therapist about the ER visit and what my parents had told me about letting her go.  He then told me that was good advice.   

But I just can't let her go.  We have so much history and I love her so much.  Honestly she is my world.  I live far away from any family and with my relationship with her she was my best friend.  So not only did she just leave and cut me off, but I lost my best friend, my social support, and my wife all at once.  I don't understand how she could just cut me off completely, block me, file for divorce, and get a mutual restraining order/no contact order.  It is like I have lost my entire world and I have no closure.  I don't want a divorce.  I just want my wife back. 

[Goosey]

It’s a big world.
And most won’t abuse you in it.
Tough call. Been there.
All of it sucks.
And you most likely have no control of it.
You may think you do because of the interaction but it is lopsided if you had the ability to see from above.
Can’t tell you how many times during the insane years when  I would spew out my fears and anguish and defense of my partner to professionals and they would calmly say “ all I hear is about her, I want to hear about you “.
It’s truth. And it takes a lot of time. Think about you. It felt selfish for me for years. Now it’s real.
I am me. A piece of crap most times haha but I know I’m not what I was trained to think I was.
Just a human with faults and some decency.
I would say don’t agonize but you will, we all did.
Just believe me it will get slowly better in your head. 

[WorriedHusband]

The last thing she said to me before blocking me was that she wouldn’t see anyone else until the divorce is over.  I didn’t think she would really file.  Now I suspect she is with another man. 

Im devastated.  How could she just throw away everything and dispose of me like a piece of garbage

[Goosey]

First off.
Your not a piece of garbage.
Take a breather.
Watch some reruns.
Stretch and yawn.
Go out and yell at the clouds.
Listen to your voice. Not theirs.

[Goosey]

And who the f — would say to their divorcing other that they wouldn’t see others till divorce is over. 
It’s like a twist of the knife and of course they are already seeing others because ALWAYS assume they are lying.
Sorry but I get worked up when I see the same pattern.
I was in it. It’s fu—-ing HELL.
But you will get through it.
You’ll go round and round. And then be like ? How did I survive that? But you will.
Assume they are always lying.
Period.
Because they are.

[WorriedHusband]

Honestly, I just want some advice on how to to advice my wife that I’m a faithful husband. She has it in her mind that I’m unfaithful when nothing could be further from the truth. Should I reach out to the son?  
It just seems to me that if she could only see that I’m telling the truth she would return to me. Now that I have realized what BPD  is and that she has it I think I know how to deal with it. If only I had known before I would have handled things so differently. Before I I always JADED her false accusations

[WorriedHusband]

I’ll admit I’m disappointed.  So many  views, but so few comments.   Being honest I’m crushed and in crisis mode.  Can anyone direct me to a site where I’ll actually get feedback

[GaGrl]

Your wife is telling you what she needs to construct so that she is the one "in the right." If she is BPD, she can't accept responsibility for her behavior and must project the blame to others - - you are the most intimate target. Does that make sense to you?

[WorriedHusband]

No, I am new to realizing she has BPD.  I don’t know what that means.  Also, after reflection  she is definitively uBPD.  She fits all nine criteria.  Help me understand

[WorriedHusband]

I love my wife dearly and just want to get back where we were. I can work on the other things once she is back

[Gemsforeyes]

Dear WH-  (sorry for the length of this, hoping you find some clarification?)

I am deeply sorry for the intense pain and confusion you’re experiencing.  Most of us arrive on these boards completely lost.  And if you’re noticing many views of your posts, but not many responses, that’s likely the reason why... people will be able to easily empathize with your pain, but most will feel they have no wisdom to provide.  Sadly, there’s no magic pill for us when we first arrive... or for some time after.  But my friend, it will get better.  I assure you.

I can only speak from personal experience, my “best” understanding of BPD/NPD, and the behaviors I experienced from my exH (19 years), and more recently my exUBPD/NPDbf (6.5 years).  And from pieces I’ve picked up from your posting. 

About 3.5 years into my relationship with my exBF, I googled “unprovoked rage in men”, and I landed here.  I was astounded.
I read like a fiend.  Literally devoured the information. There are a ton of resources on this board so that you can gain an understanding of how that “list of 9 criteria” translate into behaviors and meaningful  information.  Very eye-opening, my friend.  At least it was to me.

I came to understand that the things my exBF (And exH) accused ME of, were actually things my partners were doing... that’s the “projection”.  A very hard and painful thing to swallow as a possibility.  You KNOW you’ve been faithful.  And chances are, so does your W.  She looked through your phone... did she allow you to look through hers?  Readily and Without argument? 

Whatever she may or may not have been doing, her actions were not necessarily against you (that’s part of the disorder), but were more to “soothe” herself.  And although if she did indeed stray, she was still completely WRONG, and even worse, she is blaming YOU. And sad for her, she’s apparently got no understanding or an inability to take responsibility for her actions.  She’ll always find a way to blame you.  Because she’s clearly never done the work to develop her self-awareness.  That much is clear.  And you cannot “fix” or heal her.  You’d be surprised at the number of disordered people who are therapists.

The very saddest thing I ever learned is that I could not love my BPD/NPD partner to wellness.  They have to own up to their illness and seek active and intense therapy on their own.  Couples T doesn’t do it.  You didn’t make her like this, and you cannot cure her.

WH-  please know, I am not trying to hurt you.  We have to be painfully honest with one another here.  That’s the only way to gain an understanding of why we feel the way we/you do.

There is generally a deep sense of loss that accompanies the “end” of these relationships and it feels like an end like nothing else we’ve ever experienced.  My personal take on this (after lots of soul searching about my own situation) related directly to the ISOLATION (NOT pandemic-related) that my exBF engaged in.  We come to believe (however based in fact or not) that our partners are “our world”.  I did...  My exBF did his darnedest to keep me AWAY (through rages, fits, guilting, belittling, jealously, faking illnesses, you name it) from anyone and everyone who I cared for and who care for me.  And in the end I felt completely alone when we broke up.  I had kept the abuse a dark secret.  So yea, Completely alone, and I felt so broken... until I felt myself breathe later that night.  And in these almost 9 months of pure relief after...

My suggestions to you, WH... keep you head where your heels are... meaning try not to get ahead of yourself.  Your health MUST be priority number ONE right now.  Breathe for yourself. 

Gather people who love and support you around you.  Speak on the phone, via FaceTime, zoom, have lunch, whatever is possible for you.  If you need a medical leave from work for your health and well-being, drop your pride and take it.  Perhaps go see your family if you feel they will envelop you with love and support.  If not, visit old friends who will.  Close your eyes and call on your spiritual side, whatever form that takes.  Just try to do things FOR you... to raise you up a bit and help you Through this brutal period.

And keep posting here.

Things will become clearer.  Disregard any name-calling that may come through.  You know who you are.  Remember “projection”... that’s on her NOT you.  And again my friend, please remember, please breathe and keep your head where your feet are.

This is just a start.  To gain an understanding.  Explore the boards.  Read other posts.  And if you feel she may come back (and she very well may), you’ll have communication tools at your disposal to learn and use to improve future interaction if you decide that’s  how you wish to proceed.  We can discuss more about that later.

Your thoughts?

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

[WorriedHusband]

Your wife is telling you what she needs to construct so that she is the one "in the right." If she is BPD, she can't accept responsibility for her behavior and must project the blame to others - - you are the most intimate target. Does that make sense to you?

GaGrl, what do you mean by she needs to construct so that she is the one in the right?   It's really ironic now that I finally realize what is wrong with her.   She always and I mean always accused me of lying and cheating.  The other big thing with her was that she was saying that I was gaslighting her and she always called me defensive.  Honestly, I would get defensive because I was always being falsely accused

[WorriedHusband]

Dear WH-  (sorry for the length of this, hoping you find some clarification?)

I am deeply sorry for the intense pain and confusion you’re experiencing.  Most of us arrive on these boards completely lost.  And if you’re noticing many views of your posts, but not many responses, that’s likely the reason why... people will be able to easily empathize with your pain, but most will feel they have no wisdom to provide.  Sadly, there’s no magic pill for us when we first arrive... or for some time after.  But my friend, it will get better.  I assure you.

I can only speak from personal experience, my “best” understanding of BPD/NPD, and the behaviors I experienced from my exH (19 years), and more recently my exUBPD/NPDbf (6.5 years).  And from pieces I’ve picked up from your posting.  

About 3.5 years into my relationship with my exBF, I googled “unprovoked rage in men”, and I landed here.  I was astounded.
I read like a fiend.  Literally devoured the information. There are a ton of resources on this board so that you can gain an understanding of how that “list of 9 criteria” translate into behaviors and meaningful  information.  Very eye-opening, my friend.  At least it was to me.

I came to understand that the things my exBF (And exH) accused ME of, were actually things my partners were doing... that’s the “projection”.  A very hard and painful thing to swallow as a possibility.  You KNOW you’ve been faithful.  And chances are, so does your W.  She looked through your phone... did she allow you to look through hers?  Readily and Without argument?  

Whatever she may or may not have been doing, her actions were not necessarily against you (that’s part of the disorder), but were more to “soothe” herself.  And although if she did indeed stray, she was still completely WRONG, and even worse, she is blaming YOU. And sad for her, she’s apparently got no understanding or an inability to take responsibility for her actions.  She’ll always find a way to blame you.  Because she’s clearly never done the work to develop her self-awareness.  That much is clear.  And you cannot “fix” or heal her.  You’d be surprised at the number of disordered people who are therapists.

The very saddest thing I ever learned is that I could not love my BPD/NPD partner to wellness.  They have to own up to their illness and seek active and intense therapy on their own.  Couples T doesn’t do it.  You didn’t make her like this, and you cannot cure her.

WH-  please know, I am not trying to hurt you.  We have to be painfully honest with one another here.  That’s the only way to gain an understanding of why we feel the way we/you do.

There is generally a deep sense of loss that accompanies the “end” of these relationships and it feels like an end like nothing else we’ve ever experienced.  My personal take on this (after lots of soul searching about my own situation) related directly to the ISOLATION (NOT pandemic-related) that my exBF engaged in.  We come to believe (however based in fact or not) that our partners are “our world”.  I did...  My exBF did his darnedest to keep me AWAY (through rages, fits, guilting, belittling, jealously, faking illnesses, you name it) from anyone and everyone who I cared for and who care for me.  And in the end I felt completely alone when we broke up.  I had kept the abuse a dark secret.  So yea, Completely alone, and I felt so broken... until I felt myself breathe later that night.  And in these almost 9 months of pure relief after...

My suggestions to you, WH... keep you head where your heels are... meaning try not to get ahead of yourself.  Your health MUST be priority number ONE right now.  Breathe for yourself.  

Gather people who love and support you around you.  Speak on the phone, via FaceTime, zoom, have lunch, whatever is possible for you.  If you need a medical leave from work for your health and well-being, drop your pride and take it.  Perhaps go see your family if you feel they will envelop you with love and support.  If not, visit old friends who will.  Close your eyes and call on your spiritual side, whatever form that takes.  Just try to do things FOR you... to raise you up a bit and help you Through this brutal period.

And keep posting here.

Things will become clearer.  Disregard any name-calling that may come through.  You know who you are.  Remember “projection”... that’s on her NOT you.  And again my friend, please remember, please breathe and keep your head where your feet are.

This is just a start.  To gain an understanding.  Explore the boards.  Read other posts.  And if you feel she may come back (and she very well may), you’ll have communication tools at your disposal to learn and use to improve future interaction if you decide that’s  how you wish to proceed.  We can discuss more about that later.

Your thoughts?

Warmly,
Gemsforeyes

Gemsforeyes, thank you for posting this.  I really needed to hear this.  I'm so confused and hurt right now.  The good news is that I have lost 14 pounds in the last 5 weeks.  I had been trying to lose weight for a while and wow does it really come off fast when you get depressed.  

I have another therapy appt today.   He seems to have had a lot of experience with BPD and his experiences have not been that good.  He states that he thought he had a few success stories of couples with BPD, but he doesn't really know what happened after they left therapy.  He actually echoes a lot of what you are saying here.  He actually told me last visit that some people are just "too f'd to fix".   I don't want to accept that right now.  I am trying to cling on to a little hope.  I need some hope right now.  I'm pretty much spiraling.  It feels like I have fallen off of a cliff and every once in a while I catch myself on a ledge or something then I fall more then catch myself again.  It feels like I'm starting to run out of things to grab to catch myself anymore.

[GaGrl]

GaGrl, what do you mean by she needs to construct so that she is the one in the right?   It's really ironic now that I finally realize what is wrong with her.   She always and I mean always accused me of lying and cheating.  The other big thing with her was that she was saying that I was gaslighting her and she always called me defensive.  Honestly, I would get defensive because I was always being falsely accused

Your wife probably isn't consciously trying to "be in the right" , but people with BPD do not easily accept blame, responsibility, or accountability for their actions, behavior, and words.

So when she makes a decision to do something that is hurtful to others, her emotional makeup "needs" to find a way to blame someone else for that decision. That way, she does not feel the pain of being ashamed of what she did.

[kells76]

WH, so good to hear from you again. Kudos to you for reaching out for support from your family, therapist, and us here in the support group. You're in such a difficult time and yet I hear from what you're doing that you want to keep going, want to understand.

I read what you shared here:

He actually told me last visit that some people are just "too f'd to fix".   I don't want to accept that right now.  I am trying to cling on to a little hope.  I need some hope right now.  I'm pretty much spiraling.  It feels like I have fallen off of a cliff and every once in a while I catch myself on a ledge or something then I fall more then catch myself again.  It feels like I'm starting to run out of things to grab to catch myself anymore.

It is hard to know at this point whether your W will be receptive to long-term work or not. She may be, and that is certainly something worthwhile to hope and pray for.

If your relationship with her is going to continue, I want to encourage you that a key factor is, believe it or not, your focus on YOUR health (emotional, mental, physical, spiritual). Relationships with pwBPD (people with BPD, diagnosed or not), require SO much strength and non-intuitive tools. I want to gently suggest that a way to have the most possible hope is to focus on YOU. How can you be the best WH you can be? Can you find ways to have emotional calm, do great self care, learn about boundaries? For your marriage to continue (and again, there are no guarantees, just need to say that), you would need to care for yourself so that you can be the healthiest husband possible. It's like on airplanes: you can't help the person next to you with their oxygen, if you haven't put on your own mask, first. It's not selfish to make sure you are in a stable, caring, healthy place first. That's a strong foundation to work from.

So, WH... like Gemsforeyes mentioned, and as counter-intuitive as it may seem, what are some steps you can take today, or this weekend, to care for yourself:

My suggestions to you, WH... keep you head where your heels are... meaning try not to get ahead of yourself.  Your health MUST be priority number ONE right now.  Breathe for yourself.  

Gather people who love and support you around you.  Speak on the phone, via FaceTime, zoom, have lunch, whatever is possible for you.  If you need a medical leave from work for your health and well-being, drop your pride and take it.  Perhaps go see your family if you feel they will envelop you with love and support.  If not, visit old friends who will.  Close your eyes and call on your spiritual side, whatever form that takes.  Just try to do things FOR you... to raise you up a bit and help you Through this brutal period.

And keep posting here.

It's not selfish, it's actually a way of caring for you, and, hopefully, your W. Does that sort of make sense? That the best place for you to be, if you are interested in saving your relationship (and I hear the love and care you have for your W), is to be a strong, healthy YOU.

Keep posting whenever feels right for you... we will be here!

cheers;

kells76

[WorriedHusband]

Your wife probably isn't consciously trying to "be in the right" , but people with BPD do not easily accept blame, responsibility, or accountability for their actions, behavior, and words.

So when she makes a decision to do something that is hurtful to others, her emotional makeup "needs" to find a way to blame someone else for that decision. That way, she does not feel the pain of being ashamed of what she did.

That makes sense.  The first time she kicked me out I wouldn't say that we broke up.  I moved back in rather quickly, but the second time she kicked me out I was thinking that I can't keep living this way.  So we stayed separated for a little while.  This time when separated she actually did something so impulsive that it really really hurt me.  She met who I thought was my best friend and within 30 min of meeting him she slept with him.  I was devastated.  We were broke up, but doing it with that person really hurt me.  She blamed my mother for it actually.  I would say that this break up was when the cycle really started.  Although she had  very rare emotional outburst before this, this seemed to be when our relationship started to sour.  That is also when she started to think that I cheated on her.  She surrounded herself by people that told her that the only reason I took her back was because I must have been doing the same thing.   I hadn't been.  I couldn't think of dating or seeing anyone else, but I could never convince her of that.  That seems to be when the paranoia got worse

[WorriedHusband]

Your wife probably isn't consciously trying to "be in the right" , but people with BPD do not easily accept blame, responsibility, or accountability for their actions, behavior, and words.

So when she makes a decision to do something that is hurtful to others, her emotional makeup "needs" to find a way to blame someone else for that decision. That way, she does not feel the pain of being ashamed of what she did.

That's the thing.  She would always say that about me. She would say that I have to be right about everything.  What I was actually doing was JADE.  To her, when I would JADE it was me being defensive, trying to be right, and gaslighting.  It's like you are darned if you do and darned if you don't.  

If you don't JADE, then what do you do when you are constantly being accused of cheating, lying, and gaslighting.  Especially the cheating accusations.  Don't you have to explain that you aren't?  

Also, can anyone tell me if it's common to be blocked by someone with BPD.  I would say over the last 6-12 mths she started doing this.  She would get made at me and then block me for a day or so then unblock me.  One time, after she was calmed down I told her that made me feel badly when she did that.  She then told me that she would sometimes do it so she wouldn't contact me for her own sanity.  Now, I think she has me blocked for an entirely different reason.  I think she is detaching.   Can any explain more about a BPD person detaching or point me to a good thread about this?

Looking back on everything now I could have done things so differently.  I so regret that I didn't go to a therapist sooner who could have told me long ago what I am dealing with.  Had I only known then I thing things would be different.  I have learned so much the past month, but I am afraid it's too late

[Naughty Nibbler]

Hi WorriedHusband:
I'm so sorry for what you are going through.  I hear that you are hurting right now.  Like others have mentioned, you have to take care of yourself right now.

If you don't JADE, then what do you do when you are constantly being accused of cheating, lying, and gaslighting.  Especially the cheating accusations.  Don't you have to explain that you aren't?      

You need to state the truth, then terminate the discussion.  You can validate "feeling", but NEVER validate false information.

SAMPLE OF WHAT TO SAY: "I love you.  I can see that you are angry, but I have never cheated.  I refuse to discuss this further" Then, you leave the room, etc.  If you you end up going for a walk, a drive, etc., then announce that you are leaving and then give them some clue that you will be in contact.  i.e. "I'll be back in an hour, or I'll text you in an hour"

Also, can anyone tell me if it's common to be blocked by someone with BPD.  I would say over the last 6-12 mths she started doing this.  

Yes!  It's very common and supports "The Silent Treatment"

I love my wife dearly.  I just want us to go together and get therapy.  How can she just leave me like that.  I know I described most of the bad, but 90% of the time it was great.

1.  She got physical and verbally abusive like she normally does, but since she is only 100 pounds I just deal with it.

2.  She always accused me of lying and cheating

3.  She was constantly going from loving me to hating me

4.  She began waking up early and going through my phone.

5.  If I didn't answer my phone every single time she called it was because I was cheating.

6.  She blew up over something I considered insignificant and kicked my out again.

7. she had met someone who was supposedly my best friend and within 30 min of meeting them she slept with him

8. The big phrase she always uses is that I’m gaslighting her.  She has a tendency to misremember things and it’s always in her favor.    

You say that everything was great 90% of the time, but looking at the 8 statements you made about problem behaviors, are you sure it was as good at you think it was?

I feel like I’m her scapegoat and she won’t take responsibility for anything. I believe if I could get her to talk to me I believe we could repair this.  We could get therapy as a couple.    

In order to repair things, she has to be able to see herself as at least part of the problem. Without that, couple's therapy won't work.  You could choose to radically accept her behaviors and anticipate that the problem behaviors will continue to happen down the road, perhaps with a few remissions.  

The only person you can change and control is yourself.  What's in your power is to learn communication skills that can make it better for you and the way you interact and react to her.

I have thought about reaching out to her son.  He just graduated with his masters in social work and is doing therapy at the moment, but I don't know if doing that will make it worse or not.    

Be very cautions about interacting with her son.  I suggest you look over the workshop below on Drama Triangles.  Getting a family member in the middle can make things worse, so be careful.
KARPMAN DRAMA TRIANGLE

I don't understand how she could just cut me off completely, block me, file for divorce, and get a mutual restraining order/no contact order.

 I don't know where you live, but where I live, a temporary restraining order is generally issued, even if it's based upon lies.  Then, you have a chance to go to a court date and present your facts and perhaps a more permanent restraining order is NOT granted.

For the moment, best to stay away, so you won't be jailed.  Work on yourself and prepare for a possible court date to defend yourself regarding the restraining order.  Then, decide how to proceed.

[WorriedHusband]

Hi WorriedHusband:
I'm so sorry for what you are going through.  I hear that you are hurting right now.  Like others have mentioned, you have to take care of yourself right now.
You need to state the truth, then terminate the discussion.  You can validate "feeling", but NEVER validate false information.

SAMPLE OF WHAT TO SAY: "I love you.  I can see that you are angry, but I have never cheated.  I refuse to discuss this further" Then, you leave the room, etc.  If you you end up going for a walk, a drive, etc., then announce that you are leaving and then give them some clue that you will be in contact.  i.e. "I'll be back in an hour, or I'll text you in an hour"
 Yes!  It's very common and supports "The Silent Treatment"You say that everything was great 90% of the time, but looking at the 8 statements you made about problem behaviors, are you sure it was as good at you think it was?
 In order to repair things, she has to be able to see herself as at least part of the problem. Without that, couple's therapy won't work.  You could choose to radically accept her behaviors and anticipate that the problem behaviors will continue to happen down the road, perhaps with a few remissions.  

The only person you can change and control is yourself.  What's in your power is to learn communication skills that can make it better for you and the way you interact and react to her.
Be very cautions about interacting with her son.  I suggest you look over the workshop below on Drama Triangles.  Getting a family member in the middle can make things worse, so be careful.
KARPMAN DRAMA TRIANGLE  I don't know where you live, but where I live, a temporary restraining order is generally issued, even if it's based upon lies.  Then, you have a chance to go to a court date and present your facts and perhaps a more permanent restraining order is NOT granted.

For the moment, best to stay away, so you won't be jailed.  Work on yourself and prepare for a possible court date to defend yourself regarding the restraining order.  Then, decide how to proceed.

NN, when I said 90% of the time it was good.  We had a long relationship and it just started going bad last year.  It really started last July when she kicked me out and I wouldn’t move back in for a while.  During this time she was frantic to get me back.  It was during this time that she was with another man. We weren’t split up long then got back together.  When we got back together that is when this all really started. She would say that I left her and I would correct her and say she kicked me out. It was not long after this time when she started being more paranoid, accusing me of lying/cheating, gaslighting, etc.  Prior to this we had a very amazing relationship except for the occasional emotional blowups (the two times she kicked me out). So her behavior like this has really started a year ago.  Then 6 mths ago it progressed to being worse then the 4-6 weeks before she left she had painted me black.

The only reason I am considering contacting her son is because I truly love her with all my heart.  She has been in my life 9 years!   At this point I’m starting to realize that I think I have lost her forever and I’m starting to at least come to terms with this.  Since I still love her with all my heart I want her to get help.  Contacting the son wouldn’t be for me to get her back.  She does tend to listen to him.  I’m really torn.  Regardless of whether I can get her back I still want her to seek treatment. I want her to be herself and have a chance to break this cycle of destruction. 

Is there any hope? 

[Naughty Nibbler]

Is there any hope? 

No one can predict an outcome.  BPD is complicated and there are generally multiple mental health issues at play, some of which can improve with some meds - at least improve to the point that a person is more receptive to therapy and be willing to accept at least some responsibility for their behaviors and be willing to work on things. 

Along with BPD behaviors, she could have something like bipolar in play.  It's possible that she will cycle out of her current state, at some point, as what appears to have happened in the past.  In that case, without any cooperative participation by her, with finding an official diagnosis & successful med and/or therapy, you can expect more episodes down the road (should you reconcile). 

What are you doing in regard to the restraining order?  Have you sought legal advice?  Is there a court date?

If you do end up speaking to her son, just be cautious and be sure that the restraining order doesn't include communication with family members.  It's hard to predict whether her son will have a frank discussion with you about his mom's mental health (and history of mental health issues).

You say she exhibits all 9 traits.  Has she recently attempted suicide or made threats?  She may have had an affair (but probably not per her version), other than that, what addictions or risky behaviors has she exhibited?

[WorriedHusband]

No one can predict an outcome.  BPD is complicated and there are generally multiple mental health issues at play, some of which can improve with some meds - at least improve to the point that a person is more receptive to therapy and be willing to accept at least some responsibility for their behaviors and be willing to work on things. 

Along with BPD behaviors, she could have something like bipolar in play.  It's possible that she will cycle out of her current state, at some point, as what appears to have happened in the past.  In that case, without any cooperative participation by her, with finding an official diagnosis & successful med and/or therapy, you can expect more episodes down the road (should you reconcile). 

What are you doing in regard to the restraining order?  Have you sought legal advice?  Is there a court date?

If you do end up speaking to her son, just be cautious and be sure that the restraining order doesn't include communication with family members.  It's hard to predict whether her son will have a frank discussion with you about his mom's mental health (and history of mental health issues).

You say she exhibits all 9 traits.  Has she recently attempted suicide or made threats?  She may have had an affair (but probably not per her version), other than that, what addictions or risky behaviors has she exhibited?

I had actually suspect bipolar disorder because I didn’t know about BPD until after she left.  As far as the restraining order I have been following it since I was served.  I’ll be sure to check to see if it includes family.  I was served on Oct 29th and I have a divorce hearing December 8th.    After served I only had a few days to respond to the court.  I couldn’t afford a lawyer.  Heck, we don’t have anything to split.  My letter to RHD court just stated I didn’t want a divorce and wanted to try therapy. 

She has made no suicide attempts I’m aware of but she has told me that she has thought of it often.

What do you mean that she might have had an affair but probably not her version?

She is addicted to clonazepam (which she needs) and Tramadol (she doesn’t need). She is prescribed 3 tramadol per day and I bet she is taking 7+ per day right now.  I’ve known her to take over 10.  I have got her off of it several times before and she realized she was better off without it, but in times of stress she starts back up again.  I would say the risky behaviors would likely include unprotected sex with people she doesn’t know.  I pray to god I’m wrong on this one.

She is incredibly impulsive. Up until August 2019 she had the same job for 8 years.   Since August she has had 4 job changes.  Actually after she left me she just up and quit the job her she had just started.

I’m really worried she is spiraling down and her disease is progressing.  I’m worried about my wife and think she definitely needs help.

[WorriedHusband]

I have thought about writing a blog basically detailing my journey with my wife, my discovery of her uBPD, and my desire to help her.  Really start from the beginning of our story all the way until know.   I would talk about what I learned of the disease and detail what leads me to believe my wife has it.  Then I can talk about how treatment would be a godsend.

It would be an anonymous blog of course but I could use a name I know my wife would find.  Even though she has me blocked I know she still stalks me over the net.  I could put in a reference to a blog I started on social media, but without giving away the location. Then no one would find it, but her Or I could just direct her son to it.

Since she is an LCSW, maybe it would open her eyes.

[Naughty Nibbler]

Hi again Worried Husband:

What do you mean that she might have had an affair but probably not her version?    

If I understood what you previously wrote, your partner seemed to think that when she had sex with someone else, it was during a break-up.  I got the impression that from your perspective, it wasn't really a break-up.

I had actually suspect bipolar disorder because I didn’t know about BPD until after she left.  

 No one here can diagnose someone.  If someone gets an official BPD diagnosis, that doesn't mean they don't have concurrent mental health issues.  Most therapist might say that it sounds like someone has BPD traits, but they can't diagnose someone that isn't a client.

She is addicted to clonazepam (which she needs) and Tramadol (she doesn’t need). She is prescribed 3 tramadol per day and I bet she is taking 7+ per day right now.  I’ve known her to take over 10.  I have got her off of it several times before and she realized she was better off without it, but in times of stress she starts back up again.  

Both of those drugs are controlled substances, clonazepam in the benzo family and Tramado in the opioid family.  Is she getting these drugs from a legitimate physician?  The combo of these drugs is contraindicated.

I suspect the Clonazepam was prescribed for either anxiety or panic disorders, so that would indicate that she had been treated for a mental condition before.  This prescription can be bad for an addictive person, who uses it by itself to manage anxiety.  This med is intended to be an occasional tool to help with anxiety (hopefully just to supplement other nonaddictive meds and therapy).  When someone automatically uses it daily, they have to keep upping the dosage to get the result they want, and that leads to a problem with an addictive person.

Why did she start taking pain meds?  Wow, another addictive med.  Is she getting these meds from two different physicians?  Had she ever seen a psychiatrist?

I’m really worried she is spiraling down and her disease is progressing.  I’m worried about my wife and think she definitely needs help.    

Sounds like your partner may have struggled with anxiety for awhile, unless the benzo prescription is something recent.  Why hasn't she tried some of the nonbenzo meds that deals with anxiety?   A reputable physician wouldn't keep prescribing benzos alone, without prescribing some safer nonaddictive meds. If one physician is prescribing both meds, then got to wonder about that physician.

PS:  I just read in your thread on the conflicted board that you and your partner had recently moved and she had a new job, both of which she hated.  Stressful life changes can bring on major dysregulation.

[WorriedHusband]

Hi again Worried Husband:
If I understood what you previously wrote, your partner seemed to think that when she had sex with someone else, it was during a break-up.  I got the impression that from your perspective, it wasn't really a break-up.
  No one here can diagnose someone.  If someone gets an official BPD diagnosis, that doesn't mean they don't have concurrent mental health issues.  Most therapist might say that it sounds like someone has BPD traits, but they can't diagnose someone that isn't a client.
Both of those drugs are controlled substances, clonazepam in the benzo family and Tramado in the opioid family.  Is she getting these drugs from a legitimate physician?  The combo of these drugs is contraindicated.

I suspect the Clonazepam was prescribed for either anxiety or panic disorders, so that would indicate that she had been treated for a mental condition before.  This prescription can be bad for an addictive person, who uses it by itself to manage anxiety.  This med is intended to be an occasional tool to help with anxiety (hopefully just to supplement other nonaddictive meds and therapy).  When someone automatically uses it daily, they have to keep upping the dosage to get the result they want, and that leads to a problem with an addictive person.

Why did she start taking pain meds?  Wow, another addictive med.  Is she getting these meds from two different physicians?  Had she ever seen a psychiatrist?
Sounds like your partner may have struggled with anxiety for awhile, unless the benzo prescription is something recent.  Why hasn't she tried some of the nonbenzo meds that deals with anxiety?   A reputable physician wouldn't keep prescribing benzos alone, without prescribing some safer nonaddictive meds. If one physician is prescribing both meds, then got to wonder about that physician.

PS:  I just read in your thread on the conflicted board that you and your partner had recently moved and she had a new job, both of which she hated.  Stressful life changes can bring on major dysregulation.

She had sex with him on two different occasions.  We were technically broke up.  We had been talking again, but she was absolutely convinced I had went back to my ex-wife.  I have no idea where she gets these things in her head.  I couldn’t convince her that I was not.  I got frustrated and we stopped talking.  When we started talking again a few weeks later she told me. I accepted it.  We were technically broke up, but it still hurt how she could do that after just a couple weeks. Over the next 2-3 mths we were off and on.  She had a friend (who I suspect is NPD or BPD) that told her the only reason I accepted that is because I must have been seeing other women.  I was not

Yes, no one can diagnose someone except professionals.  I suspected bipolar disorder because of the mood swings.  She had been on clonazepam for 20 years for anxiety.  She started taking the tramadol about 5-6 years ago after a hysterectomy.  She had chronic pain afterward.  I’m in the medical field and both her and I know the two together are contraindicated, but she has a PCP that will write it for her.  When she goes over her dad gives her more.   As far as I know she has never seen a psychiatrist.  She has never tried to get off the benzos.  I have helped her get off the tramadol multiple times, but during times of stress she goes back.

Yes, recently moved and that is when she split me black

What do you think about me starting an anonymous blog?  I’m hoping I can tell out story and maybe she could read it and see my view

[Naughty Nibbler]

I have thought about writing a blog basically detailing my journey with my wife, my discovery of her uBPD, and my desire to help her.  Really start from the beginning of our story all the way until know.   I would talk about what I learned of the disease and detail what leads me to believe my wife has it.  Then I can talk about how treatment would be a godsend.

It would be an anonymous blog of course but I could use a name I know my wife would find.  Even though she has me blocked I know she still stalks me over the net.  I could put in a reference to a blog I started on social media, but without giving away the location. Then no one would find it, but her Or I could just direct her son to it.

Since she is an LCSW, maybe it would open her eyes.

I think that journaling for you is a great idea.  Doing it, along with therapy and posting here can supercharge the benefit.  Be careful about writing something, for her or her son to discover online.  I tend to think you will get a bad reaction. 

It's unfortunate that she has physicians writing prescriptions, that they shouldn't be writing.  They should be referring her for a psychological eval. and hopefully prompting her to take appropriate meds.  Benzos can be a tool, but not the only tool. 

Do you live in the US?  I doubt that she has pain from a surgery from 4 years ago.  A reputable physician would require a thorough evaluation, before prescribing pain med on an on-going basis.  How Is her father able to supplement his daughter's supply of pain meds? 

You might want to have a discussion about the med situation with your therapist and seek advice.  Do you think the physicians are being lenient with your partner, because she is a LCSW?  Might there be a strategy to use with the two physicians to cause a review of the way they are prescribing controlled substances? 

The best things that could happen are:
1. The physician who prescribes ongoing benzos, requires that she get a psych eval and be evaluated by a psychiatrist in regard to other, less addictive meds. for daily use & use benzos less frequently and without opioids.

2.  Physician who continues to prescribe pain meds for 4 years, needs a nudge to stop doing that, have her get an eval for root cause of actual pain & treat that or stop the prescriptions. 

3.  Her dad quits supplementing her pain meds.

I guess if you were to talk to her son, I'd focus on the drug issues, drug combo & her dad supplementing her opioids.  The focus of concern would be that she could die from the combo, that the recent stress of moving & changing jobs has caused major emotional dysregulation for her & she needs a proper psych eval and proper meds.  All you can do is suggest it, say you want the best for her and then let it be.





 

[WorriedHusband]

I think that journaling for you is a great idea.  Doing it, along with therapy and posting here can supercharge the benefit.  Be careful about writing something, for her or her son to discover online.  I tend to think you will get a bad reaction. 

It's unfortunate that she has physicians writing prescriptions, that they shouldn't be writing.  They should be referring her for a psychological eval. and hopefully prompting her to take appropriate meds.  Benzos can be a tool, but not the only tool. 

Do you live in the US?  I doubt that she has pain from a surgery from 4 years ago.  A reputable physician would require a thorough evaluation, before prescribing pain med on an on-going basis.  How Is her father able to supplement his daughter's supply of pain meds? 

You might want to have a discussion about the med situation with your therapist and seek advice.  Do you think the physicians are being lenient with your partner, because she is a LCSW?  Might there be a strategy to use with the two physicians to cause a review of the way they are prescribing controlled substances? 

The best things that could happen are:
1. The physician who prescribes ongoing benzos, requires that she get a psych eval and be evaluated by a psychiatrist in regard to other, less addictive meds. for daily use & use benzos less frequently and without opioids.

2.  Physician who continues to prescribe pain meds for 4 years, needs a nudge to stop doing that, have her get an eval for root cause of actual pain & treat that or stop the prescriptions. 

3.  Her dad quits supplementing her pain meds.

I guess if you were to talk to her son, I'd focus on the drug issues, drug combo & her dad supplementing her opioids.  The focus of concern would be that she could die from the combo, that the recent stress of moving & changing jobs has caused major emotional dysregulation for her & she needs a proper psych eval and proper meds.  All you can do is suggest it, say you want the best for her and then let it be.

 

Yes, I am in the US.   It is not physicians it is a single physician.  He’s a terrible PCP.  I agree, she needs off the pain meds for sure.  When she has got off of them in the past she felt great, but never gave up her script. She would only be off a month or so then stress would send her back to them. Her pain, of present, is mild.  She uses the tramadol as a crutch to deal with her psychological issues.  The dad has them because he has had a prescription for years and has hoarded them. He is incredibly manipulative! 

I don’t possibly see how I could change the meds issue without being there for her.  In the past I would wean her off, but some issue in life always had her back on. If that dr stopped prescribing I think she could find another that would.

The root cause of her problem is the uBPD.  I just want her to get help.   

So if the blog is anonymous no one would see it or know who it’s about.  If she read it she would recognize the story.  Do you think she would respond poorly?   Would she feel betrayed or angry or just be in denial?

What can I do to reach her?

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[WorriedHusband]

Ok so I now see what you were saying. I’ve been journaling the past few hours and you are right.  She would not take this well. Knowing her, she would pick it apart and disagree with it.  She would look for any minor details and try to make something of it.  I think it would feed into her anger and her insistence that I’m a liar.

[Naughty Nibbler]

Ok so I now see what you were saying. I’ve been journaling the past few hours and you are right.  She would not take this well. Knowing her, she would pick it apart and disagree with it.  She would look for any minor details and try to make something of it.  I think it would feed into her anger and her insistence that I’m a liar.

I'm glad you decided to keep it private.  It can be very therapeutic for you to journal.  Sometimes, it's helpful to go back and read what you wrote about certain events.  Sometimes, it can provide a reality check.  

Think about keeping it secured in some way.  If you are currently using some word processing software, then make it password protected and the title shouldn't give anyone a clue what it is.  If you are successful in getting back together, you don't want her finding your journal.

You might want to read a thread on the "Detaching Board".  It's on the first page, approx. 4-5 from the top.  The title is "Another Future is Possible".

What can I do to reach her?  

Probably best to do some research on divorce laws in your State and the restraining order process (how to contest, remove, etc.).  I believe you sent a response to the courts that you didn't want a divorce, so you have to research what happens from there.  If you Google something like, "contesting a divorce (or restraining order) in ____State", you may even find some good information presented on attorney's websites.

You might want to post on the "Family Law" board about contesting your divorce and dealing with the restraining order.  You might get some helpful responses there.

Once you can legally communicate with your wife, you might consider approaching her about the benzos & opioid combo, perhaps with the angle that the combo has affected her emotional well being.  Perhaps, it could be a time to suggest she be evaluated by a psychiatrist to get better meds for her anxiety.  I wouldn't say anything about BPD, just talk about the behaviors and that you are worried about the combo of meds she is taking and that she is addicted to them.  Also, pain, 4 years post hysterotomy, is an issue to check out. The situation screams of the classic case of an addictive patient and a too liberal doctor combo creating a drug addiction situation.  If she hasn't taken any hormone replacement therapy, that might be something to help.

In any event, she needs new doctors, that are tuned into preventing drug addicts, as opposed to creating them. That probably won't be easy, since she is addicted to the meds and will fight to keep her drug supplier (her primary physician).

[WorriedHusband]

I'm glad you decided to keep it private.  It can be very therapeutic for you to journal.  Sometimes, it's helpful to go back and read what you wrote about certain events.  Sometimes, it can provide a reality check.  

Think about keeping it secured in some way.  If you are currently using some word processing software, then make it password protected and the title shouldn't give anyone a clue what it is.  If you are successful in getting back together, you don't want her finding your journal.

You might want to read a thread on the "Detaching Board".  It's on the first page, approx. 4-5 from the top.  The title is "Another Future is Possible".
 
Probably best to do some research on divorce laws in your State and the restraining order process (how to contest, remove, etc.).  I believe you sent a response to the courts that you didn't want a divorce, so you have to research what happens from there.  If you Google something like, "contesting a divorce (or restraining order) in ____State", you may even find some good information presented on attorney's websites.

You might want to post on the "Family Law" board about contesting your divorce and dealing with the restraining order.  You might get some helpful responses there.

Once you can legally communicate with your wife, you might consider approaching her about the benzos & opioid combo, perhaps with the angle that the combo has affected her emotional well being.  Perhaps, it could be a time to suggest she be evaluated by a psychiatrist to get better meds for her anxiety.  I wouldn't say anything about BPD, just talk about the behaviors and that you are worried about the combo of meds she is taking and that she is addicted to them.  Also, pain, 4 years post hysterotomy, is an issue to check out. The situation screams of the classic case of an addictive patient and a too liberal doctor combo creating a drug addiction situation.  If she hasn't taken any hormone replacement therapy, that might be something to help.

In any event, she needs new doctors, that are tuned into preventing drug addicts, as opposed to creating them. That probably won't be easy, since she is addicted to the meds and will fight to keep her drug supplier (her primary physician).

Sorry I didn't reply sooner.  I just couldn't deal with it yesterday.  I had an incredibly tough day and had to give myself a break for a day.  

Thank you for the response.  At this point, I am afraid I won't have to worry about password protecting my journal.  She will have been gone 6 weeks this Friday and I am devastated.  I'm starting to give up.  I've cried so much and spent so much time in therapy and reading about all of this that I just want everything to just stop.  I just don't want to deal with it anymore.  

Even if I was able to get rid of the restraining order/no contact order I don't know how to get through to her.  She has me blocked everywhere.  I do believe she is still checking out my social media pages frequently.  I thought about writing a letter and putting it on pinterest.  She would find it and no one I know is on my pinterest page.  I don't.  I'm really just lost. I actually wrote her a letter and at the recommendation of my therapist sent it to the court and to her attorney.  He said that is the only way I can contact her.  My therapist and I both think that her lawyer will not show her the letter.  

Regarding her quack Dr, I have decided to report him to the medical board.

[Naughty Nibbler]

Sorry I didn't reply sooner.  I just couldn't deal with it yesterday.  I had an incredibly tough day and had to give myself a break for a day.   

  You have to be very stressed out.  You do need to step back and let your mind chill for a few days. 

Are you getting any exercise?  Maybe going for a walk/hike in a nearby park or some other form of exercise?

It would serve you well to learn/practice some form of anxiety relief:  breathing exercises, various forms of meditation, etc.  I highly recommend an app called Insight Timer.  It's available for both Android and Apple.  There is a lot available for free, including some live events to tune into.  They have some great audio courses, for a modest annual or monthly fee, but there is a lots to explore for free. 

I actually wrote her a letter and at the recommendation of my therapist sent it to the court and to her attorney.  He said that is the only way I can contact her.  My therapist and I both think that her lawyer will not show her the letter.   

I think that the lawyer has a duty to offer the letter to her.  Actually, writing a letter can be a good thing, even if you don't send it. When you want to send a letter, best to write a version, sit on it for a few days, then review it for editing before sending (maybe more than once).  Usually, you are glad you didn't send the first version.

She will have been gone 6 weeks this Friday and I am devastated.  I'm starting to give up.   

  People with BPD/BPD traits are unpredictable, so you don't know what will happen.  All you can do is prepare for your court date, dispute the restraining order and state your position. 

You can only do what's within your control.  I know you feel devastated right now and that has to be hard. What can seem like the end of the world for you, can turn into a fresh new beginning.  When you feel up to it, please read the thread I recommended on the detaching board.  Perhaps it could give you a glimpse of a similar future for you.

Regarding her quack Dr, I have decided to report him to the medical board. 

  Sounds like a good idea for someone to review his prescription writing of controlled substances.  If you partner is forced to see a new primary care doctor, she won't be happy, but an evaluations by a new doctor could force her down a much better path. 

[WorriedHusband]

  You have to be very stressed out.  You do need to step back and let your mind chill for a few days. 

Are you getting any exercise?  Maybe going for a walk/hike in a nearby park or some other form of exercise?

It would serve you well to learn/practice some form of anxiety relief:  breathing exercises, various forms of meditation, etc.  I highly recommend an app called Insight Timer.  It's available for both Android and Apple.  There is a lot available for free, including some live events to tune into.  They have some great audio courses, for a modest annual or monthly fee, but there is a lots to explore for free. 
 I think that the lawyer has a duty to offer the letter to her.  Actually, writing a letter can be a good thing, even if you don't send it. When you want to send a letter, best to write a version, sit on it for a few days, then review it for editing before sending (maybe more than once).  Usually, you are glad you didn't send the first version.
  People with BPD/BPD traits are unpredictable, so you don't know what will happen.  All you can do is prepare for your court date, dispute the restraining order and state your position. 

You can only do what's within your control.  I know you feel devastated right now and that has to be hard. What can seem like the end of the world for you, can turn into a fresh new beginning.  When you feel up to it, please read the thread I recommended on the detaching board.  Perhaps it could give you a glimpse of a similar future for you.
  Sounds like a good idea for someone to review his prescription writing of controlled substances.  If you partner is forced to see a new primary care doctor, she won't be happy, but an evaluations by a new doctor could force her down a much better path. 

I get a lot of exercise.  I ran 4 miles on my lunch break then after work took my dog hiking for 3 miles.  I’m getting in about 10-11 miles per day total right now.  Before she left I got around 6 miles per day.  It’s honestly the only thing that keeps me occupied.

I actually wrote the letter and wasn’t going to send it.  I told my therapist about it and he asked to see it.  He read it and encouraged me to send it.  I’m actually worried the court will think I’m crazy and this could hurt me. Basically it is a 5 paged typed letter talking about how I’ve been in therapy, learning about my own self, how much I’ve learned regarding conflict resolution, validation, etc, and how that I believe we have chance it we put in the work. I could actually forward you what I wrote if you like.

I spoke to the state medical board today and they wanted me to write a letter with the drs name, the patients name, and the complaints.  This gives the dr a chance to respond. I am sure he would tell my wife and she would know it was from me. At this point I think I need to wait on this one.

[once removed]

first things first:

you are going to be okay, WH.

it may not seem like it now. and it didnt when i was going through it myself. in fact, loved ones would tell me later on that they, at times, worried i wouldnt be.

you are going through heartbreak, you are going through the stages of grief, and you are going through a very complicated breakup/divorce. and youre drifting between hope and letting go of hope.

whatever happens, a year from now, you will not be in this pain. five years from now, you wont recognize this pain.

yours is a challenging case. in order to revive this relationship, you need to understand what about it went wrong in the first place, and have a solid game plan for how it would change if you were to get back together.

those things are for naught, though, if shes not a willing partner in the process. that may change. and it also may not. you have a strong support system in place, in either event. youll be well prepared.

my general advice right now, would be that anxiety often tells our bodies that there is an urgent need to act...to say something, to do something, to reach the other person. i would discourage you right now, from trying to do that, as hard as it may be. one of, or all three things tend to happen when we do: they arent received well, they dont paint us in the most attractive light, and we often kick ourselves later.

[WorriedHusband]

Once Removed, thank you for the reply. I think I have figured out what went wrong.  I just don’t see how that is a call for a separation or divorce.  

Her mother is a narcissist that abandoned her, her sister has schizophrenia.  She always has thought it was her job to be their caregivers.  Then there is her child molester father and worthless stepmother that for some reason she feels so loyal to.  He is a manipulator and he enabled her over medicating on tramadol.  He also played on her to get her to carry him to dr appts, etc even though his wife is capable of doing that.  All of them were upset when we moved here in August and I think they were telling her to come back.

She was always so certain that I was lying to her and cheating on her. I think she would tell them her fears and they would use that to drive a wedge between us.

She got here and even though it was the best thing for us she hated it and hated her new job. She wouldn’t even give it a chance.  Looking back at some text from her the week before she left she was telling me I just wasn’t listening. I kept saying to give it a chance and change is always hard, but I guess to her that was me not validating her emotions on the change. A week before she left one text from her was talking about how she hated the new job and place where we live and she said she felt like a bird in a cage.  

I tried to tell her we would buy a house once the lease is up and if she didn’t like her job she could find another. I guess that wasn’t enough.  I now believe she started the fight on purpose as excuse leave.

I heard her, but I wasn’t listening. I could have handled it all so differently. I have so much regret.  To think of what all we have been through together and then this be what splits us up is just so hard to accept.  

I’m curious why everyone here is discouraging me from contacting her for a while?  I know it’s advice based on experience, but what is the reason?  Is it that she still has me splitted black and I need to give it time for the pendulum to swing back to white?  Does chasing them drive them away? What exactly am I waiting on? I guess I’m trying to understand her though process better

[Naughty Nibbler]

I’m curious why everyone here is discouraging me from contacting her for a while?  I know it’s advice based on experience, but what is the reason?  Is it that she still has me splitted black and I need to give it time for the pendulum to swing back to white?  Does chasing them drive them away? What exactly am I waiting on? I guess I’m trying to understand her though process better

#1 Reason:  SHE HAS A RESTRAINING ORDER IN PLACE & AGAINST YOU.  Do you want to get arrested? This is you biggest issue and has to be resolved first.  You need to get it lifted before making contact..

#2 Reason:  When someone want a break in communication, it's best to respect it.  Being needy isn't attractive and absence can make the heart grow fonder & people generally want something more, when it isn't too readily available. 

[WorriedHusband]

Yes. I understand about the order.  I have not  attempted to contact her since I was served the divorce and order.  I was referring to if I can get it lifted.

The reason I feel I need to contact her is that if we don’t work on resolving things before court on December 8th the judge will proceed that day and divorce will be granted unless by some miracle the judge sides with me to postpone.

Thank you for the advice.

[Naughty Nibbler]

Yes. I understand about the order.  I have not  attempted to contact her since I was served the divorce and order.  I was referring to if I can get it lifted.

The reason I feel I need to contact her is that if we don’t work on resolving things before court on December 8th the judge will proceed that day and divorce will be granted unless by some miracle the judge sides with me to postpone.

You should consider consulting a divorce attorney.  I know you indicated that you can't afford one, but it could be worth your while to just get a consultation and make it time efficient.  Best to make sure you have accurate info. and know what your options are.   Posting on the Family Law board here, could lead to some helpful input for you.  

I understand that restraining orders can be easy to get initially.  The person served with the order has to have an opportunity to defend their self.  It's hard to fathom that you have no options other than to appear in court and accept a divorce decree.

I believe you responded to the courts that you didn't want a divorce (are contesting it).  You have to be given an opportunity to present your position to the judge and to defend yourself in regard to the restraining order and to contest the divorce.  If you are able to get the judge to believe your side of the story about the restraining order, perhaps the judge might order some counseling (or some degree of communication between the two of you). That could be your opportunity to talk with her and have the conversations you want.  

It's hard to fathom that you could get a restraining order issued, without a chance to defend yourself & tell your side of the story.  Her actions tend to exemplify BPD traits.  Perhaps, the judge will accept that angle and at least require that you both have some level of communication, before he grants a divorce.

[ForeverDad]

That restraining order is in place until the hearing date in 4 weeks.  It is usually called "ex parte" which means only one party needs to request it.  However, it can only be for a short while, usually just a few weeks, before both parties have a hearing before a judge and both can present their sides.

Why not view this restraining order as a "time out" often issued by the court.  It gives both parties the opportunity to seek legal counsel, figure out what they want to say, as well your preference on a number of matters if the case continues.  Will one spouse be required to provide support to the other spouse?  Who lives in the current residence?  Who pays those bills?  Who gets the use of shared vehicles and other properties?  If there are shared financial accounts (deposits, loans, credit cards, etc) how is it temporarily divided and maintained?  If there are children or a pregnancy, how will parenting be assigned temporarily?

Your court  *might* enable you to propose going to marriage counseling, but don't count on it if she opposes it.

I'm not a legal expert, so do not rely on it, but you might be allowed to speak with her in the presence of "an officer of the court", if she is willing to speak too.

[ForeverDad]

In your first post you mentioned you sought closure.  Sadly, you probably can't get that from her.

What did we here in peer support do?  Gift yourself closure.  Let Go.  Move On.

True, it's horrendously difficult.  Recovery is a process, not an event.  There's a bright side.  Once you are through the process and out the other side, you will have all your future before you and life won't feel as troubling then as you feel now.

[WorriedHusband]

That restraining order is in place until the hearing date in 4 weeks.  It is usually called "ex parte" which means only one party needs to request it.  However, it can only be for a short while, usually just a few weeks, before both parties have a hearing before a judge and both can present their sides.

Why not view this restraining order as a "time out" often issued by the court.  It gives both parties the opportunity to seek legal counsel, figure out what they want to say, as well your preference on a number of matters if the case continues.  Will one spouse be required to provide support to the other spouse?  Who lives in the current residence?  Who pays those bills?  Who gets the use of shared vehicles and other properties?  If there are shared financial accounts (deposits, loans, credit cards, etc) how is it temporarily divided and maintained?  If there are children or a pregnancy, how will parenting be assigned temporarily?

Your court  *might* enable you to propose going to marriage counseling, but don't count on it if she opposes it.

I'm not a legal expert, so do not rely on it, but you might be allowed to speak with her in the presence of "an officer of the court", if she is willing to speak too.

I don’t understand really. We had not irreconcilable differences.  She just started a fight and left.  I don’t want a divorce.  I want the opportunity to speak to my wife so we can discuss this.

We didn’t have any shared bank accts.  There should be no marital support.  I already told her that I didn’t want anything if hers. She can have it. I just want the opportunity to try to fix this

[WorriedHusband]

In your first post you mentioned you sought closure.  Sadly, you probably can't get that from her.

What did we here in peer support do?  Gift yourself closure.  Let Go.  Move On.

True, it's horrendously difficult.  Recovery is a process, not an event.  There's a bright side.  Once you are through the process and out the other side, you will have all your future before you and life won't feel as troubling then as you feel now.

I’m seeking closure only as a second option.  I want to reconcile.  We had a great life together until just recently.

[ForeverDad]

I’m seeking closure only as a second option.  I want to reconcile.

Most new members arrive here in peer support expressing exactly that sentiment.  However, the reality is that it takes two persons to repair a relationship.  I'm not saying it's too late to reconcile, we here in remote anonymous peer support can't predict specific cases, but you do have to be realistic, this woman has deep issues since BPD is suspected.

We had a great life together until just recently.

That's not what I read in your early posts.  There were many ups and downs, her cycling was from one extreme to the other.  One perspective that may help you is to recognize that your great life also had not-so-great times as well.

She was constantly going from loving me to hating me.  It seemed to be getting worse.  Her trust of me continued to decline.  She began waking up early and going through my phone.  She would make mountains out of mole hills.  My boss would text me about something work related and she would think I was sleeping with my boss.  If I didn't answer my phone every single time she called it was because I was cheating.   She would always say she heard women in the background and no one would be there. 

I finally got the job transfer and my co-workers had a going away dinner.  It was from 6:00-7:30 after work.  She blew a gasket and accused me of cheating on her because I didn't answer the 50 times she called me during that hour and a half.

We got a house together after I changed jobs and it was more of the same.  She accused me of lying and cheating constantly.  I was walking on eggshells.  For the record I have been 100% faithful to my wife.

How long ago did the worst of your spouse's behaviors worsen?  I suspect it was sometime after you married.  I've written on this before, though I am not a trained professional.  Marriage changes a person's perspective.  For a person with BPD (pwBPD) marriage transmits a sense of obligation in the relationship and that can be very triggering to a pwBPD.  You could feel a sense of obligation and yet the other may feel unable to deal with that obligated relationship.

In my own case I had been married for 15 years before my marriage imploded.  As I look back there were troubling signs from the very beginning.  Seriously, how many newlywed wives on the start of their honeymoon will fake a broken back?  But over the years her incidents gradually got worse and worse.  (Have you heard of the story of the slowly cooked frog who didn't realize to jump out of the pot?)  Near the end it got a lot worse, in my case we had a child, I had hopes it would make her happier but it fed her abuse fears from her childhood.  I had to let her go.

[WorriedHusband]

ForeverDad, we had a great relationship until a year ago, but it didn’t get really bad until we recently moved back in August.  Sure we had ups and downs, but until last year I would have described our relationship as being as close to perfect as could be obtained. 

I’ll admit I always knew something was going on, but I didn’t know about BPD and I just thought she could be a little paranoid and bipolar.

[Mark Dunner]

Hey. i have been reading all your posts and your desire to be with her again is palpable. that being said you have some major work to do on yourself. this isn't a dig but indeed the key to getting rid of this pain. you are suffering because something in you has been reprogrammed or is susceptible to the abuse. i literally am in the tail end a bpd breakup and felt sick for so long until i found out what she had. its ok to be committed but you have to be able to set emotional boundaries. that strength will either attract her back to you or it will make you so strong you may move on. so in some ways its a win win. i promise once you read others experiences you will see the similarities but it will also seem very toxic and unacceptable, either way you definitely deserve peace and chasing her isn't going to bring her back. becoming mentally and emotionally strong will. have a few drinks. moan a bit. come to this board. keep going to therapy and fight for your own peace. go to the gym. wtv. but everyday keep working on yourself. good luck

[WorriedHusband]

Well, as of today I’m divorced.  I still haven’t spoke to my wife.  I saw her today via Zoom during the hearing.  She didn’t look the least bit upset.  I was a wreck and fought to hold back tears throughout the hearing.  I ended up getting an attorney friend I know help me out.  I told him the details and how I didn’t want the divorce.  He told me to let her go.  He actually said he would represent me pro bono if I didn’t contest it. he said he would contest it if I wanted, but if I chose that route he would charge the PLEASE READ out of me. 
He got them to drop her request for attorney fees.  According to her lawyer she just wanted a divorce and didn’t want to see me or speak to me.

[ForeverDad]

One-sided love is so hard, there will no closure from her, you'll have to Gift closure to yourself.  It will take time to recover.

Accept that the courts are there to oversee the unwinding of a marriage.  All it takes is for one spouse to want to end it.  Your wishes and hopes otherwise won't avoid that.

You were wise to listen to your attorney friend, as hard as it was.  It's okay to mourn what was, even if it was in the process of imploding.  Mourn, accept, regather your life and move on.  At first your steps will feel empty but time is a healer.

[once removed]

the end of a relationship, especially when it entails divorce, and all of the cost of a history, a life together, hopes and dreams, is unimaginably hard.

perhaps not now, but in time, the steps you have taken will matter to you, long after the pain is over.

until then (and after that), we are here for you.

[Goosey]

I know your devastated.
Deep deep inside what is there.
Life.
Without the withering criticism (at the kind end of the spectrum
).
Take it as the gift it is.

[phx611]

I have an immense amount of sympathy for you. My ex-girlfriend with BPD have been broken up for nearly a month after a 10-year relationship. It's tough for me and we have had our ups and downs (over what I would consider trivial things sometimes even nothing). I'm thinking that maybe being with her is just not a good thing me for me but this is far from a conclusion.
 It's hard doing the tiptoe thing around behaviors and attitudes that aren's healthy. I mean you can't even bring up anything remotely negative even when the conversation is not animated and totally civil. I imagine you have been through that. When things are good between you they are probably great. I hope that everything works out if you haven't already resolved things by now.

[WorriedHusband]

This has been the hardest thing I’ve ever experienced.  We had a wonderful life together for the most part.  It just all went bad so quickly. 
Thank you all for the support.  It still has been no communication between us.  She complete just left and cut me off.  It is taking me longer to accept than it should.  I still don’t know if I accept this, but I obviously don’t have a choice. It took me 2 days after the divorce to even take my ring off and I had tried multiple times before I could actually do it.  Honestly I only took it off because it would have been even more humiliating with everyone knowing I’m divorced but still wearing the ring. It still doesn’t feel right having it off.

I have decided to work on me for a while. I think I just need to be alone and find myself again.  I’m actually getting my passport and getting everything ready for a trip I’ve always wanted to take. I’m getting a trip planned to climb Kilimanjaro in August.  The early climbing season ends in February and I don’t have enough time to make it then so I’m going the next climbing season and will summit the mountain on my birthday

[formflier]

How often do you climb?  Is the outdoors a place you go to get recharged? 


Best,

FF

[WorriedHusband]

How often do you climb?  Is the outdoors a place you go to get recharged?  


Best,

FF

I hike on Saturdays and again on Sundays, usually about 9 miles each day.  During the week I run.  For distance I can just squeeze 6.5 miles in on my lunch breaks.  I usually do some hill sprints 1-2 days per week.  I try to break 12 miles total per day.  

I haven’t climbed in a long time though.  My last big climb was Fuji

Yes, the outdoors is where I recharge.  Exercising has also been a huge outlet for me.   

[WorriedHusband]

Well, exactly 10 days after the divorce was final she starts trying to contact me.  She wrote me this really long text about how much she loves me, but how bad of a person I am.  She listed all of these examples of things, none of which were true.  She immediately blocked me after that so I couldn’t respond.

The next day she text me goodbye and then a video of a love song. She even tried to FaceTime me.  This time I didn’t even attempt to respond or answer her call.

She text me several more times 2 days later talking about how inappropriate it is that I have female friends on social media when I’m in a relationship.  She is talking about people from 20 years ago that I haven’t seen or talked to.   I couldn’t understand what she was saying really, but could she still believe we are in a relationship after she divorced me?    I never responded.

The following day she sent another love song video. I didn’t reply so 15 min later she wrote “wrong person ouch sorry Forgot blk”. I took it that blk meant she was again blocking me. I didn’t reply to her.  Later that night she sent all these pictures to Facebook messenger and send me some more messages accusing me of being unfaithful.

The next day she sent a text with many pics of us together. She wrote that I’m a chronic cheater.  I never cheated on her.
About 7 hours later she wrote “have a wonderful life ♾ we were just too toxic”.  Again I didn’t reply. This last text from her was 2 days ago.

I have decided not to speak to her again. It’s really shocking to me that she could completely cut me off and tell herself and anyone who will listen all of these lies about me.  I begged and pleaded for her to just talk to me, but she wouldn’t.  She completely ghosted me.  Then 10 days after the divorce she starts this crap.  I just don’t get it. 

[formflier]

Very wise to not communicate with her.

When was the last time you responded to one of her messages?

How are you doing over the holidays?  Stay strong!

Best,

FF

[WorriedHusband]

Very wise to not communicate with her.

When was the last time you responded to one of her messages?

How are you doing over the holidays?  Stay strong!

Best,

FF

I haven’t spoke to her in almost 3 mths.  She ghosted me and I tried to contact her daily for the first 25 days until I was served divorce papers and a restraining order. She never would respond to me. After I was served I stopped trying to contact her.

I just don’t understand why she is trying to contact me now. 

[PearlsBefore]

I haven't read your whole story, just the beginning and the end here - but it sounds to me like whatever her reason is for this renewed contact, she has a very definite plan in her mind. She knows she's unblocking you just long enough to send this and then re-blocking, etc. Also, it's possible to make a huge mistake and send a text meant for your new tall dark and handsome lover to your old lover...but it's not really possible if she has to unblock you to do it, right? So it was intentional - and I would doubt there's even some other lover at all.

If I had to guess, the divorce was a long-term ploy for her all along, wait for it to get finalized to move to Step 2; honestly I'd be suspicious that her plan was just to make you the "enemy" and devastate you...so you'd take her back and her life would be even more pampered.

A dBPD I know very well actually admitted she had an affair...but not "to get revenge" or anything, but because she honestly believed that it would drive her husband crazy with jealousy and then he would be even nicer to her - just like he had done every time she had "attempted suicide". Non-BPD people won't be surprised to hear that's not how it happened; turned out NOBODY really entertained romantic feelings for her, and while the husband took her back he did so "at a discount" making it clear that the incident had obviously decreased his attention and affection for her. She was flabbergasted because she really thought it would play out the same as the suicide attempts - resulting in MORE love and care.

Ultimate moral of the story here though, when he took her back but she was upset that he expressed disappointment and decreased affection and intimacy with her...she literally tried to murder him.

You know your situation better than I do so I don't want to "tell you what to do", but it sounds to me very much like you would not be wise to re-engage, especially where it sounds like she's just putting Step 2 into action of some plan known only to her- and she'll be unhinged if things don't go how she hopes. She's off the deep end, and as difficult as it is for us caregivers to ever wash our hands of a loved one...sometimes you have to know when to walk away. Let her plan die, let her abandon her plots and conspiracies, and then maybe in a few years if she seems to be more stable you can re-engage on healthier terms. :\

[WorriedHusband]

I haven't read your whole story, just the beginning and the end here - but it sounds to me like whatever her reason is for this renewed contact, she has a very definite plan in her mind. She knows she's unblocking you just long enough to send this and then re-blocking, etc. Also, it's possible to make a huge mistake and send a text meant for your new tall dark and handsome lover to your old lover...but it's not really possible if she has to unblock you to do it, right? So it was intentional - and I would doubt there's even some other lover at all.

If I had to guess, the divorce was a long-term ploy for her all along, wait for it to get finalized to move to Step 2; honestly I'd be suspicious that her plan was just to make you the "enemy" and devastate you...so you'd take her back and her life would be even more pampered.

A dBPD I know very well actually admitted she had an affair...but not "to get revenge" or anything, but because she honestly believed that it would drive her husband crazy with jealousy and then he would be even nicer to her - just like he had done every time she had "attempted suicide". Non-BPD people won't be surprised to hear that's not how it happened; turned out NOBODY really entertained romantic feelings for her, and while the husband took her back he did so "at a discount" making it clear that the incident had obviously decreased his attention and affection for her. She was flabbergasted because she really thought it would play out the same as the suicide attempts - resulting in MORE love and care.

Ultimate moral of the story here though, when he took her back but she was upset that he expressed disappointment and decreased affection and intimacy with her...she literally tried to murder him.

You know your situation better than I do so I don't want to "tell you what to do", but it sounds to me very much like you would not be wise to re-engage, especially where it sounds like she's just putting Step 2 into action of some plan known only to her- and she'll be unhinged if things don't go how she hopes. She's off the deep end, and as difficult as it is for us caregivers to ever wash our hands of a loved one...sometimes you have to know when to walk away. Let her plan die, let her abandon her plots and conspiracies, and then maybe in a few years if she seems to be more stable you can re-engage on healthier terms. :\

I’m on tiktok to show support for my children and she was on there to show support for my children as well (my kids are around 10 and post little videos so we had accounts to keep up with them and put likes on their videos)

I was just notified on my phone that my son had posted a new video.  When I opened tiktok it said she had posted a video and mentioned me in the comments. I clicked on it and it was her saying Merry Christmas. The video appeared as though it was to a general audience and mentions her having a hard Christmas because she lost someone dear to her.   

She did some things in the video that only I would understand.  It was something she had done as her way of flirting with me. It works on me every time and she knows it. This time it just made me sad. I still love her and not responding is so so tough. I just can’t go through this anymore. I don’t know what to do.  I can’t respond to her though even though I would love to hold her in my arms.   

I guess she has tried calling, texting, messaging me on Facebook so this is her next attempt to contact me using another platform.  I just don’t understand it. After everything, the way she left me and tortured me with no contact, letting the divorce go through without even allowing us to speak to try to figure things out, and now contacting me regularly starting 10 days after the divorce is over.   I just don’t understand.

[formflier]

Notice that once you stopped chasing her...she started chasing you.

Can you think back on your relationship and see that pattern before?

Best,

FF

[WorriedHusband]

Notice that once you stopped chasing her...she started chasing you.

Can you think back on your relationship and see that pattern before?

Best,

FF

I can, but I don’t understand it

[WorriedHusband]

Notice that once you stopped chasing her...she started chasing you.

Can you think back on your relationship and see that pattern before?

Best,

FF

Why let a divorce actually go through if she still loves me and wants me?

She knew I didn’t want a divorce.  She completely cut me off and out of her life for almost 3 mths

[formflier]

Why let a divorce actually go through if she still loves me and wants me?

She knew I didn’t want a divorce.  She completely cut me off and out of her life for almost 3 mths

These are excellent and very rational...thoughtful questions.  They make sense to you.

Now, take a couple deep...really deep breaths.  pwBPD rarely use the rational part of their brain.  Perhaps better said, when their emotions are going haywire (dysregulation), their emotions overpower rational thought.

Then there is an additional thing where sometimes they have "emotional memories" that don't quite match up to "objective" memory.

I'm so sorry this is happening to you.  I hope you can deepen your knowledge of BPD and related behaviors and use that to "not take this personally".

Thoughts?

Best,

FF

[WorriedHusband]

These are excellent and very rational...thoughtful questions.  They make sense to you.

Now, take a couple deep...really deep breaths.  pwBPD rarely use the rational part of their brain.  Perhaps better said, when their emotions are going haywire (dysregulation), their emotions overpower rational thought.

Then there is an additional thing where sometimes they have "emotional memories" that don't quite match up to "objective" memory.

I'm so sorry this is happening to you.  I hope you can deepen your knowledge of BPD and related behaviors and use that to "not take this personally".

Thoughts?

Best,

FF

I’ve read so much that I’m tired of educating myself. I just don’t understand.  I can’t think like she does no matter how hard I try.  She definitely misremembers things. I would remember it one way and she would remember it completely different and accuse me of lying or gaslighting her

[ForeverDad]

Your experience, and the others described here in peer support, is precisely why we state that we just can't "stay in communication and be friends".  The relationship hasn't shrunk back to merely less contact, it's over by necessity.

It's not mean, it's just the reality of what must be.  And why 'closure' is something we Gift ourselves since we won't get it from the Ex.

Of course, if there are shared children, some contact is unavoidable, but limited to essential parenting and exchange matters.

[WorriedHusband]

Your experience, and the others described here in peer support, is precisely why we state that we just can't "stay in communication and be friends".  The relationship hasn't shrunk back to merely less contact, it's over by necessity.

It's not mean, it's just the reality of what must be.  And why 'closure' is something we Gift ourselves since we won't get it from the Ex.

Of course, if there are shared children, some contact is unavoidable, but limited to essential parenting and exchange matters.

ForeverDad, did something similar to this happen to you? 

[ForeverDad]

True story... dateline 2008 a few days after the final decree and also a few days* after our wedding anniversary... For whatever reason my ex and I are on the phone, I'm driving and ex asks about the next court date.  We had just spent the past 23.5 months in a lengthy divorce struggle, mostly about custody.  I had weathered child abuse allegations made to CPS, 911, sheriff deputies, police, child therapists, court testimony, urgent care, hospital emergency department, regional abuse center, you name it, it happened.  Even an attempt to put me on Amber Alert!  So now it was finally over - until she violated the order within a month but silly me didn't know that yet.  I just replied "we're divorced already".  She then suggested I take her out to dinner to celebrate.  You can't make these things up.

* final decree was two days after our anniversary

A dozen years have passed, son has aged out of the system and lives with me, especially after the coronavirus panic set in.  She comes by to visit him once or twice a week.  She doesn't talk about the past but... she views the past as me having been so mean, also any comment I make has to be careful or she gets triggered.  I can't even relax with compliments, "That's sexual harassment!" is the predictable retort.

[WorriedHusband]

Now she is emailing me professing her love and saying she didn’t communicate with me because her lawyer told her not to

[AlmostRyan]

Now she is blaming her lawyer for why she was not communicating with you. Notice how she doesn't take any responsibility. It's the blame game. Do you want to keep dancing that dance? I think you have done well to avoid getting back in any unnecessary communication.

Whether the person with the disorder listens to authority or not depends on perceived benefit and potential consequences (or lack thereof). We all do that to some extent, but it is taken to dangerous extremes in the case of disorder. Furthermore, information coming from authorities can be  completely misconstrued or twisted to fit a personal narrative, and then you will be getting that version of what was "heard". I've had to ask my lawyer to tell my spouse's lawyer to remind my spouse to stop having in-person (even if outdoors) playdates with the kids during the pandemic, when county health orders, school teachers, etc. were all frowning heavily on in-person anything. Did my spouse listen to her lawyer? Hell no. In her world, COVID isn't dangerous, but I am, and so are vaccinations. The lawyers and health experts are all wrong, wrong, wrong.

Also, I don't know if what your ex-spouse is doing could be considered as "sucking you back in" at your stage but it seems like a possibility. In my case, I have already rehearsed what I'd say to anything that is beyond a necessary communication related to the kids' health or their exchange: basically a polite "no thank you". And I already got used to being "tested" previously. A feeler is commonly thrown out there, and regardless of what your answer is, the original idea will be canceled, changed, etc. after the response. In my experience, these kinds of communications are just covert ways to gain insight into your status. Being neutral and brief in any necessary responses and sticking to the facts is the best way to avoid being emotionally drawn back in.

[Notwendy]

I think there's some sound advice here, and look carefully at AlmostRyan's post- it's packed with it.

I would encourage you to step back and take a view at the patterns of behavior, not just what is happening in the moment or the current "reason".

Just a short time ago, this woman divorced you. Now she says she loves you and it's the lawyer's fault she didn't contact you.

This is not taking responsibility. But the lawyer didn't initiate the divorce- she did and the lawyer was paid to advise her and represent her. The lawyer is simply doing their job. She's responsible for the legal divorce.

She's been doing all kinds of things that have "worked" in the past. This is expected. The two of you each have your relationship "tools" that have contributed to the pattern, and if hers "work" it's because you reinforced that behavior - you responded to them in the way she wanted you too. Take a scientific look at this. It's positive reinforcement. If a child got candy every time they had a tantrum, they would keep on having tantrums. The child is doing what works for them and in a sense, the parent taught them that it works.

Her behaviors worked because you reinforced them. These behaviors can include manipulative behaviors, threats, declarations of love, being nice- look at them through an objective lens and decide how you have reinforced them.

Your response is up to you. Do you respond the same way you have? Then you are back in the pattern. You have the choice here- more of the same or not.

There can be a cycle to this- push- pull. She pushed you away and now the pull. But the potential for the push away is there. If you see the pattern, not the here and now, it will help you make a choice of what to do.

[bendinthewind]

I don't have any great advice here for you but I wanted to say that I hear you. I feel your pain, and can empathize with it. I'm so sorry that you're having such an impossible time. I am familiar with that feeling.
After a particularly difficult month, I am currently asking myself the question "should I stay or should I go?" and I know that nobody can answer that except myself. I have to figure out my own limits and strengths and quantify if I can take this on or not. The realisation that the moods and difficult behaviours could be due to BPD is at once a relief (no he's not just a moody bastard!) but it also feels a life sentence for both of us. My husband is extremely intense emotionally and I always thought of myself as super resilient and strong but this year has really pushed us all to the absolute limit I think. For those of us with mental health issues at the very least.

I am sending you good vibes for patience, self-love and strength. Take care of yourself first and foremost. Deep breaths.

[formflier]

I too want to encourage you to read the advice on this post several times.  It will help you begin to understand.

Also be kind to yourself and realize that "understanding" the ins and outs of pwBPD is a long process and much of it is like learning a difficult foreign language.

In addition, I would like you to read the article below a couple of times.  Don't try to understand everything about "drama triangles" at once.   


Article to help you understand her "switching roles" or "switching approaches"
 
After reading it, then think about her "offer" to you that you accept that "her lawyer" was the reason she said or didn't say things.

What role is she attempting to cast the lawyer?

What role is she attempting to  accept for herself?

What role would she like you to play?

Again...be kind to yourself if this seems really hard to grasp.

Best,

FF

[WorriedHusband]

I have been in contact with her a little.   She is messaging me quite a bit, but she is going back and forth between loving me and becoming angry.  She easily gets focused on the same false allegations and is convinced I’m a lying, cheating, and manipulative person. She even brings up the fight when she left and has all these wild versions that just didn’t happen. 

It’s been really tough because I’m still crazy about her and love her so much, but I know I’ll never be able to convince her that these are all delusions.  At the same time I’m worried about her. Her mental state seems to be on a downward spiral that started about a year ago and really picked up steam around July of last year

[WorriedHusband]

I too want to encourage you to read the advice on this post several times.  It will help you begin to understand.

Also be kind to yourself and realize that "understanding" the ins and outs of pwBPD is a long process and much of it is like learning a difficult foreign language.

In addition, I would like you to read the article below a couple of times.  Don't try to understand everything about "drama triangles" at once.   


Article to help you understand her "switching roles" or "switching approaches"
 
After reading it, then think about her "offer" to you that you accept that "her lawyer" was the reason she said or didn't say things.

What role is she attempting to cast the lawyer?

What role is she attempting to  accept for herself?

What role would she like you to play?

Again...be kind to yourself if this seems really hard to grasp.

Best,

FF

I think she is just blaming everyone but herself. Anything she can do except accept blame. 
Her role is always that of the victim. I think to her my role goes back and forth between rescuer and persecutor.

[ForeverDad]

...but she is going back and forth between loving me and becoming angry.  She easily gets focused on the same false allegations and is convinced I’m a lying, cheating, and manipulative person. She even brings up the fight when she left and has all these wild versions that just didn’t happen.

My ex did that too, rehashing prior perceived wrongs over and over, demanding apologies, over and over.  I was unable to cure her of that.  To me it - and everything else - was the signal that the relationship had imploded.  I doubt you can cure yours either.

Her mental state seems to be on a downward spiral that started about a year ago and really picked up steam around July of last year.

We were married for nearly 15 years but in the final year my marriage was imploding, my then-spouse would rant and rage and then rush sobbing to the guest bedroom.  She really looked like she was falling apart.

But after we separated she totally changed.  We had a child together and she thereafter was hellbent on blocking me as a parent.  I never saw moaning any more.

You can't fix her, you're more a crutch than a support.  What I'm saying is that, if she chooses, she can take care of herself more than you expect.  But as long as you are there she likely won't.

[once removed]

people often act out the unresolved issues from a failed relationship, as they grieve it. this is not unique to bpd traits, although it can be especially so.

it is rarely if ever productive.

i think it would help to see what she is doing in the context of that.

its not a question of her sincerity, per se.

shes hurt. shes reacting to that hurt, and shes swinging wildly in two different directions. shes hurt about what shes accusing you of. shes probably hurt because she, on some level, wonders whether or not her accusations are reasonable or true. shes hurt because she just went through a divorce, and while i suspect that is what she wanted on some level, it may not be entirely. for example, sometimes people initiate a breakup or a divorce to break through to the other person, to be heard, to teach them a lesson, whatever.

i dont know the extent to which your loved one has grieved the relationship, and how much she ultimately wants the divorce vs how hard shes struggling with it at the same time. i dont know if thats possible to know.

i can tell that it is confusing you, and i think it will help to see this for what it is: extreme confusion on her end, and to, as best you can, not get too caught up in it. not get too caught up in further confusing yourself, or trying to unconfuse her, at least, in a reactionary way eg "you cheated" "no i didnt i always loved you".

because if you want her back (youre on the Bettering or Reversing board), while you dont want to outright dismiss her concerns, and the conflict between the two of you would need to be resolved, whats more important in the short and the long term is the big picture, and the big picture is...big. the two of you just went through a traumatic divorce. there are longstanding, unresolved, real issues that you will need a well thought out game plan and new strategy for tackling. if you jump right back into this (you may be headed in that direction), it will end, probably quickly, with both of you in even greater pain.

she blames the lawyer because thats an easy in back into contact. weve all done it, to lesser or greater extremes, and for a person that is struggling with loss and grief, its the emotionally easier thing to do. see it for what it is. shes soothing her grief. shes struggling with the loss of you, though that does not, ultimately, necessarily equate with wanting to get back with you in the long term.

the task before you, which, in fairness, is enormous, is not to try to read between the lines of whether she wants you back or not. i suspect she does, and she doesnt. the task before you is to determine, seriously, soberly, whether this is salvageable, and how.

[lateappointment]

Hi WH,

I think she is just blaming everyone but herself. Anything she can do except accept blame.

The way I've interpreted it with my partner is she feels something painful, and because she can't figure out a way to fix it internally, she tries to find some resolution outside.

For instance, she hears me mention a female friend. This makes her feel insecure and worry about cheating. A healthier person might use their rational thinking to reflect whether it's a real threat, do some research, have a discussion to learn more about that other person and establish boundaries... or just accept these feelings, decide not to worry too much about it, and move on.

This is really difficult for my partner. She'll think about the threat all day, every day, and imagine catastrophic scenarios. It's like a loop where the bad feeling grows bigger and more painful the more she thinks about it. She can't accept it and make room for it. "Their emotions overpower rational thought," as formflier said.

So instead she gets the world to change - I need to avoid talking to female friends, my sister needs to unfriend my ex on Facebook, my coworker's girlfriend needs to dress more conservatively. She ends up blaming anything but herself, because that's the only way she sees to address those feelings.

She expects other people to think the same way, too. Like she assumes that if I ever feel attracted to a female friend, I'll end up cheating on her, I think because she doesn't see how I could feel something and choose not to act on it.

I'd be curious how much of this you feel applies to your ex, and I hope 2021 brings you lots of positive changes.

[dustyandbiscuit]

Appreciate I'm late to the party, and have nothing insightful to offer.

You have kindly shared your experience and I must admit so much of your experiences felt so similar to mine.

I can see the push/pull cycle you've been living and it breaks my heart, I've been going through the same thing.

[WorriedHusband]

people often act out the unresolved issues from a failed relationship, as they grieve it. this is not unique to bpd traits, although it can be especially so.

it is rarely if ever productive.

i think it would help to see what she is doing in the context of that.

its not a question of her sincerity, per se.

shes hurt. shes reacting to that hurt, and shes swinging wildly in two different directions. shes hurt about what shes accusing you of. shes probably hurt because she, on some level, wonders whether or not her accusations are reasonable or true. shes hurt because she just went through a divorce, and while i suspect that is what she wanted on some level, it may not be entirely. for example, sometimes people initiate a breakup or a divorce to break through to the other person, to be heard, to teach them a lesson, whatever.

i dont know the extent to which your loved one has grieved the relationship, and how much she ultimately wants the divorce vs how hard shes struggling with it at the same time. i dont know if thats possible to know.

i can tell that it is confusing you, and i think it will help to see this for what it is: extreme confusion on her end, and to, as best you can, not get too caught up in it. not get too caught up in further confusing yourself, or trying to unconfuse her, at least, in a reactionary way eg "you cheated" "no i didnt i always loved you".

because if you want her back (youre on the Bettering or Reversing board), while you dont want to outright dismiss her concerns, and the conflict between the two of you would need to be resolved, whats more important in the short and the long term is the big picture, and the big picture is...big. the two of you just went through a traumatic divorce. there are longstanding, unresolved, real issues that you will need a well thought out game plan and new strategy for tackling. if you jump right back into this (you may be headed in that direction), it will end, probably quickly, with both of you in even greater pain.

she blames the lawyer because thats an easy in back into contact. weve all done it, to lesser or greater extremes, and for a person that is struggling with loss and grief, its the emotionally easier thing to do. see it for what it is. shes soothing her grief. shes struggling with the loss of you, though that does not, ultimately, necessarily equate with wanting to get back with you in the long term.

the task before you, which, in fairness, is enormous, is not to try to read between the lines of whether she wants you back or not. i suspect she does, and she doesnt. the task before you is to determine, seriously, soberly, whether this is salvageable, and how.

She has going back and forth with me.  She is obsessed with her accusations that I’ve been cheating and am seeing someone now.  I never cheated and I haven’t been dating.  She has been insisting that I admit it and I told her that I would not admit to something I didn’t do.  She gets angry and starts to tell me how bad of a person I am. She hinted around that she has been on a dating site and talking to other men. It’s very upsetting to me and she doesn’t care that it upsets me. She has made up some false version of me and she believes it.  It’s a tale of paranoia and entirely false. 

She is also stalking me on social media and the internet. Actually on Friday she went crazy on me sending a lot of messages on Tiktok. I have an account there to keep up with my kids, but I don’t post videos or anything.  I guess somehow she was able to see what videos I had liked on there. She went crazy about me liking some videos on narcissism.  She then sent about 10 messages about how I am the narcissist.  I never even replied and haven’t heard from her since.  I ended up having to set my account to private.  I guess when it’s public people can see the videos you’ve liked

[WorriedHusband]

Hi WH,

The way I've interpreted it with my partner is she feels something painful, and because she can't figure out a way to fix it internally, she tries to find some resolution outside.

For instance, she hears me mention a female friend. This makes her feel insecure and worry about cheating. A healthier person might use their rational thinking to reflect whether it's a real threat, do some research, have a discussion to learn more about that other person and establish boundaries... or just accept these feelings, decide not to worry too much about it, and move on.

This is really difficult for my partner. She'll think about the threat all day, every day, and imagine catastrophic scenarios. It's like a loop where the bad feeling grows bigger and more painful the more she thinks about it. She can't accept it and make room for it. "Their emotions overpower rational thought," as formflier said.

So instead she gets the world to change - I need to avoid talking to female friends, my sister needs to unfriend my ex on Facebook, my coworker's girlfriend needs to dress more conservatively. She ends up blaming anything but herself, because that's the only way she sees to address those feelings.

She expects other people to think the same way, too. Like she assumes that if I ever feel attracted to a female friend, I'll end up cheating on her, I think because she doesn't see how I could feel something and choose not to act on it.

I'd be curious how much of this you feel applies to your ex, and I hope 2021 brings you lots of positive changes.

That pretty much describes her exactly.   I’m at my wits end. I love her and care about her, but she has made me into something I am not.  I will never convince her otherwise.  I do wonder if she ever doubts herself and wonders if she could be wrong. 

[WorriedHusband]

Appreciate I'm late to the party, and have nothing insightful to offer.

You have kindly shared your experience and I must admit so much of your experiences felt so similar to mine.

I can see the push/pull cycle you've been living and it breaks my heart, I've been going through the same thing.

It’s a constant heartbreak.   She only sees the flaws.  There is no reasoning with her.  Just when I think we might be breaking ground then something gets her angry again. 

[once removed]

are you ready to try a very different approach?

[WorriedHusband]

are you ready to try a very different approach?

Now she is being all loving.  I have not met with her in person.  After 3.5 mths, I’m kind of getting used to the lack of constant drama and walking on eggshells. I don’t miss the constant accusations. I don’t miss her always thinking I’m gaslighting her and twisting my words.  There is a lot of things that I miss, but I’m starting to think that maybe she did me a favor because I would have never left her. 

I actually spoke with her last night. She has been dating.  She now wants me back.  She told me a few stories of her experiences dating about how rude and vulgar the dating scene is.  I really think she has just realized I’m a good person and that the grass isn’t greener.  I think she realizes I love her unconditionally.   This all makes me feel somewhat vindicated, but at the same time it makes me sad because that just means she wanted something better only to realize what she had wasn’t that bad.  It makes me feel like a winner by default.

As much as I love her, I don’t know if I can do this anymore.  I have decided to meet her for coffee, but at this point it might just be for closure on my part.  I never got to see her after she left and she had me blocked until she contacted me 10 dats after the divorce.  I have a lot to think about, but I definitely view her differently now that the fog has started to clear.  It might be time to let go.

[formflier]

Why not actually see how sincere she is about what she has realized?

There is no "cost" or "danger" to her in meeting for coffee.

There is a tremendous potential for you to end up in FOG again..."at coffee".

However, if she wanted you back and was willing to meet you at a therapists office..well...to me that would demonstrate she has had some insight and is potentially willing to discuss serous matters.

Listen...if you want her back "as is"..then please don't hear me give an objection to your choice.  If you want her back "realizing" certain things...DO NOT take her word for it during "coffee".

How does all of this come across to you?  What do you think?

Best,

FF

[WorriedHusband]

Why not actually see how sincere she is about what she has realized?

There is no "cost" or "danger" to her in meeting for coffee.

There is a tremendous potential for you to end up in FOG again..."at coffee".

However, if she wanted you back and was willing to meet you at a therapists office..well...to me that would demonstrate she has had some insight and is potentially willing to discuss serous matters.

Listen...if you want her back "as is"..then please don't hear me give an objection to your choice.  If you want her back "realizing" certain things...DO NOT take her word for it during "coffee".

How does all of this come across to you?  What do you think?

Best,

FF

FF,
She isn’t going to take any real responsibility in her actions.  She just realizes now that she was wrong.   She is an LCSW and she wouldn’t go to therapy. She would probably recommend that I go, but she is never going to go herself. 

I think you are right though.  There is no danger in meeting for her, but for me the risks are high.

[formflier]

 
She isn’t going to take any real responsibility in her actions.  She just realizes now that she was wrong.   She is an LCSW and she wouldn’t go to therapy. 

How does it make you feel or think about this situation to believe she believes she was wrong?

What if you knew or believed that she didn't think she was wrong?

When you read that someone realizes they are wrong, yet won't do anything to correct that...how does that affect the way you think about them being wrong.

I think you are right though.  There is no danger in meeting for her, but for me the risks are high.

I'm glad you understand this.  How does this realization affect the way you see the meeting/future.

Best,

FF

[ForeverDad]

She has been dating.  She now wants me back.  She told me a few stories of her experiences dating about how rude and vulgar the dating scene is.

My ex tells stories... about her work.  A month or two ago she gave every detail about some conflict at her work.  Then last night while visiting our son she told that same story all over again, in great detail, dissing her coworkers, as though it had just happened.  After she left I asked whether this was that prior incident or was it a new identical incident.  He didn't know.

I would warn that the pattern here is blame shifting, "I am great, everyone else is the problem."

I really think she has just realized I’m a good person and that the grass isn’t greener.  I think she realizes I love her unconditionally.

"Danger, Will Robinson!"  (Allusion to a 1960s space adventure Lost in Space where the robot gave a warning every episode when danger was detected.)  You are setting yourself up for disaster if you think a few months apart has Gifted her insight into how good you are.

BPD is a disorder more evident the closer the relationship.  You've been apart so the behaviors have lessened.  Get back together again and well... the roller coaster starts again.

Also, she's been dating?  After barely a few months apart?  Not a good sign.

[WorriedHusband]

Well, it didn’t take her long. She is going from loving me to hating me. She is blame shifting and she hasn’t changed at all. She called last night to talk about us meeting for coffee today. She was all giggling and giddy then literally 2 min into the conversation out of nowhere she became irate and began cussing me and talking bad about my family. She started texting me immediately being hateful, cussing, and blaming me and my family for everything.  The text kept coming in and all incredibly hateful. 
Like always she called me a liar, cheater, narcissist, and gaslighter.  Then she accused me of getting it from my mom who she then called a bitch and a narcissist.  I then wrote her a long text telling her that I love her and always will but it’s time for me to let go.  I told her goodbye and blocked her

[formflier]

 

What does "blocking her" mean?  (so asking technically...blocked on what, can she tell she is blocked, can others..etc etc)

Also asking what it means for the relationship?

If she can tell she is blocked, then what do you want her to understand when she realizes this (if she can realize it)

Switching gears.

How do you feel?

Best,

FF

[WorriedHusband]

What does "blocking her" mean?  (so asking technically...blocked on what, can she tell she is blocked, can others..etc etc)

Also asking what it means for the relationship?

If she can tell she is blocked, then what do you want her to understand when she realizes this (if she can realize it)

Switching gears.

How do you feel?

Best,

FF

I blocked her phone so she can’t call or text me anymore. She must have realized it when her messages no longer showed up as delivered because she then started emailing me cussing at me and going crazy with her accusations. 

I was really hoping that maybe some time away had allowed her to reflect and change. I was wrong. She is toxic to me.  I will never be able to reason with her and if I go back to her I will live a life of misery.  As much as I love her I have to let her go.  If I’m strong enough I have stay no contact. 

[formflier]

OK...what do you intend or expect her to feel when she realized that she was blocked?

Are you surprised that she reach out with some lovely language via email?

Best,

FF

[WorriedHusband]

OK...what do you intend or expect her to feel when she realized that she was blocked?

Are you surprised that she reach out with some lovely language via email?

Best,

FF

I expected her to be angry at me for blocking her.  I have never really done that before. She is the one that left me, blocked me, and didn’t communicate with me at all then she divorced me without communicating.  She reached out to me 10 days after the divorce. I don’t understand that. 

She also has been going back and forth, hot and cold, loving and hating. She has blocked me so many times.  It’s a control thing with her I suppose. 

I really thought that maybe there was a chance that she had realized her part in all of this, but I was wrong.  She will never take any responsibility for anything. I would like to hear her apologize and take responsibility, but she can’t do it. 

She has emailed me twice today.  Today she is back to loving me.  I just can’t reply to her.  I love her and I worry about her, but I can’t deal with the back and forth, loving and hating anymore.  I don’t even see anything triggering her.  Like yesterday we were all set to meet today. She called me and within two minutes she flew into a rage. I hadn’t even said 3 sentences.   

She has never been this bad before. In the past she never had such high and swift emotion changes.  She could always have some mood swings, but nothing like this.  Since we started communicating again since the divorce she seems to have really exacerbated her BPD.  Do people with BPD spiral down this severely?  I have never before  witnessed  such intense
mood swings.  Can anyone educate me on what’s going on with her?  I love her and am worried about her, but at the same time I have to look out for my own well being.  This is hard on me

[formflier]

I expected her to be angry at me for blocking her.  

Yep...good insight/ability to look at yourself/your part.

And nope..it won't matter (in their mind) that they have blocked you a gazillion times...  Yes, seems hypocritical...it is hypocritical, but no to them.

  Since we started communicating again since the divorce she seems to have really exacerbated her BPD. 

There is intense "fear of abandonment" coupled with an apparent desire to do things to people before it is done to them. 

So..."i'll abandon you before you can abandon me".  Then...they still have feelings of abandonment because you are in fact...gone.

Yeah...takes a while to wrap your head around that...good luck.

Do people with BPD spiral down this severely?

Yes and the quick/inexplicable mood swings.  No shock here.  "Let's me for coffee..."  (poof)  "you are the devil"

  I have never before  witnessed  such intense
mood swings.  Can anyone educate me on what’s going on with her?

I can generally say these are classic "BPDish" behaviors.  Very different than diagnosing her.

She is likely have very intense emotions about the end of her marriage and what you are seeing is the fallout of how she "deals with those emotions."

Best,

FF

  I love her and am worried about her, but at the same time I have to look out for my own well being.  This is hard on me

[WorriedHusband]

Yep...good insight/ability to look at yourself/your part.

And nope..it won't matter (in their mind) that they have blocked you a gazillion times...  Yes, seems hypocritical...it is hypocritical, but no to them.


There is intense "fear of abandonment" coupled with an apparent desire to do things to people before it is done to them. 

So..."i'll abandon you before you can abandon me".  Then...they still have feelings of abandonment because you are in fact...gone.

Yeah...takes a while to wrap your head around that...good luck.


Yes and the quick/inexplicable mood swings.  No shock here.  "Let's me for coffee..."  (poof)  "you are the devil"



I can generally say these are classic "BPDish" behaviors.  Very different than diagnosing her.

She is likely have very intense emotions about the end of her marriage and what you are seeing is the fallout of how she "deals with those emotions."

Best,

FF

I would have never left her and I have went out of my way to express that to her. For her to just up and leave the way she did makes no sense and I never would have thought she would do that. From the time she left and until after the divorce she blocked me for 2.5 mths.  Did she not regret her decision until then? Does she regret it now? 

I don’t understand why she keeps doing this to me.  She gets my hopes up then she crushes them.  Does she want me back/love me or does she hate me?   

I keep thinking that if only we could see each other in person things could be resolved. I don’t think that way now.  I think there is never going to be us going back to how it was before. 

What

[formflier]

  Does she want me back/love me or does she hate me?   

Yes...she does.

Yep...they are likely both true, and as you saw they can both be true in just a matter of minutes.

You know how hard this is for you, imagine for a minute or two what it's like to have these kind of things racing around in your head/heart.

Best,

FF

[WorriedHusband]

Yes...she does.

Yep...they are likely both true, and as you saw they can both be true in just a matter of minutes.

You know how hard this is for you, imagine for a minute or two what it's like to have these kind of things racing around in your head/heart.

Best,

FF

I thought about what you said.  I do love her so much. It hurts knowing the mental anguish she is experiencing.  I reached out to her today.  We are going to try to meet up tomorrow.  I am going into this with my eyes wide open and I am not getting my hopes up.  There is a lot of issues that would need addressed, but at first we just want to have a simple get together

[babyducks]

Hello WorriedHusband

I would have never left her and I have went out of my way to express that to her. For her to just up and leave the way she did makes no sense and I never would have thought she would do that. From the time she left and until after the divorce she blocked me for 2.5 mths.  Did she not regret her decision until then? Does she regret it now? 

a couple of thought on what you wrote in this thread.

First BPD is a serious mental illness.   It is not 'just a matter of thinking wrong' or being confused.   It is a serious mental illness.

So, No you and her do NOT process the events of life, or the emotions of life in the same way.    You do not ~see~ things the same way.   You do not feel things the same way.    Does she regret what she did ?   Or not?   people with BPD believe that the emotions of the moment are totally accurate and will last forever.  pwBPD see their emotions as being caused by others or by events outside themselves, with no belief that they have any sort of control over their emotions.   pwBPD believe that the only way to change how they feel is to get other people or events to change.     the highly unstable approach to relationships is a symptom of the illness.

She has never been this bad before. In the past she never had such high and swift emotion changes.  She could always have some mood swings, but nothing like this.  Since we started communicating again since the divorce she seems to have really exacerbated her BPD.  Do people with BPD spiral down this severely?  I have never before  witnessed  such intense mood swings.  Can anyone educate me on what’s going on with her? 

BPD is often comorbid (co-exists) with other mental illnesses.   To use a real life example, my Ex is Bipolar 1 comorbid BPD.   Her mood could swing violently in the matter of minutes.    There is a theory in Bipolar called the Kindling effect.   Its complicated but in a very simple way it suggests that stressful events lower the threshold where mood changes occur.   Basically, each mood swing makes later episodes more likely and more severe.   

pwBPD can and do become psychotic.    My Ex did.   In one episode she believed that the wind would send her car in the direction it needed to go and she would "drive" without her hands on the steering wheel.   She eventually recovered from that episode but in the middle of it she was convinced that her car was steered by wind power.

I reached out to her today.  We are going to try to meet up tomorrow.  I am going into this with my eyes wide open and I am not getting my hopes up.  There is a lot of issues that would need addressed, but at first we just want to have a simple get together

I would encourage you to not add any volatility to an already volatile situation.   I know this is difficult.    the intense push pull your relationship is going through is bad for both of you.    please think about how to keep things Simple.    And Short.   do not add any intensity to an already intense situation.    consider how to allow the heightened emotions to return to baseline.   be aware that you will return to emotional baseline (a calm steady state)  before she does.

'ducks

[WorriedHusband]

Hello WorriedHusband

a couple of thought on what you wrote in this thread.

First BPD is a serious mental illness.   It is not 'just a matter of thinking wrong' or being confused.   It is a serious mental illness.

So, No you and her do NOT process the events of life, or the emotions of life in the same way.    You do not ~see~ things the same way.   You do not feel things the same way.    Does she regret what she did ?   Or not?   people with BPD believe that the emotions of the moment are totally accurate and will last forever.  pwBPD see their emotions as being caused by others or by events outside themselves, with no belief that they have any sort of control over their emotions.   pwBPD believe that the only way to change how they feel is to get other people or events to change.     the highly unstable approach to relationships is a symptom of the illness.

BPD is often comorbid (co-exists) with other mental illnesses.   To use a real life example, my Ex is Bipolar 1 comorbid BPD.   Her mood could swing violently in the matter of minutes.    There is a theory in Bipolar called the Kindling effect.   Its complicated but in a very simple way it suggests that stressful events lower the threshold where mood changes occur.   Basically, each mood swing makes later episodes more likely and more severe.   

pwBPD can and do become psychotic.    My Ex did.   In one episode she believed that the wind would send her car in the direction it needed to go and she would "drive" without her hands on the steering wheel.   She eventually recovered from that episode but in the middle of it she was convinced that her car was steered by wind power.

I would encourage you to not add any volatility to an already volatile situation.   I know this is difficult.    the intense push pull your relationship is going through is bad for both of you.    please think about how to keep things Simple.    And Short.   do not add any intensity to an already intense situation.    consider how to allow the heightened emotions to return to baseline.   be aware that you will return to emotional baseline (a calm steady state)  before she does.

'ducks

Thanks for the reply, Ducks. 

I am aware that she has severe mental illness.  I definitely realize we think and experience things differently.  For 2 mths after she left and I realized that what she has has a name I poured myself into reading hours upon hours each day as well as spending hours in therapy myself. Logically, I will myself that I realize she things differently, but it’s one of those things that you can’t wrap your head around.  This year is our 10th year in each other’s lives.  Think about that. 10 years!   She always displayed signs and symptoms of mental illness, but during our last year it just exacerbated so severely.  She has done things I never dreamed she would do.

Her only diagnosed mental health illness that I know of is anxiety, but I suspect she has been diagnosed with BPD.   It’s just the way she has always says things such as “you know I have a severe fear of abandonment” or “you know I have problems with relationships”.   I think it is highly likely that she has comorbidities of bipolar disorder and possibly schizoaffective disorder and BPD.  She might not meet all the diagnostic criteria, but she definitely checks a lot of those boxes.

Regardless I do love her and don’t like seeing her spiraling down.  I worry about her and truly care about her as a person.  She has really hurt me, but yet I never really experienced any anger at her.  The anger I had was at myself for ignoring the warning signs and not learning more before this all came crashing down

[babyducks]

I am aware that she has severe mental illness... Logically, I will myself that I realize she things differently, but it’s one of those things that you can’t wrap your head around.  This year is our 10th year in each other’s lives.  Think about that. 10 years!   

Since logically you recognize she suffers from a mental illness, perhaps what you are describing with 'can't wrap your head around' is acceptance.

acceptance that your relationship is forever altered by her illness.

Here is what I know about acceptance.   It serves to ground us.    It gives us a steady stable place from which to make decisions and move forward.

Ten years is a long time.    It's quite the emotional investment in someone else's life.    I think its important to accept that those 10 years had huge significance and that it won't be possible to return to the way things were for those 10 years.

For me, acceptance means experiencing life without defense or distress.     What does acceptance look like for you?     Can you accept that her ability to function in a relationship is severely limited?   Can you accept that her illness may mean watching her spiral down into a more unhealthy place?     

It's important to be honest about what a relationship with her can be like.

'ducks

[formflier]

  please think about how to keep things Simple.    And Short.   do not add any intensity to an already intense situation.     

To add to this...


Think about how she does conflict and/or intensity.  Now, think about how you have responded in the past, it's VERY important that you are able to be DELIBERATE about steering the relationship to "simple" and "short" even when she is doing her best to complicate/enrage/add fuel (you name it).

Note..it will appear in the moment that she does NOT appreciate you efforts at simplicity and short, yet please rest assured that is a much better place for you to focus...regardless of her opinion of it.

Thoughts?

Best,

FF

[WorriedHusband]

Since logically you recognize she suffers from a mental illness, perhaps what you are describing with 'can't wrap your head around' is acceptance.

acceptance that your relationship is forever altered by her illness.

Here is what I know about acceptance.   It serves to ground us.    It gives us a steady stable place from which to make decisions and move forward.

Ten years is a long time.    It's quite the emotional investment in someone else's life.    I think its important to accept that those 10 years had huge significance and that it won't be possible to return to the way things were for those 10 years.

For me, acceptance means experiencing life without defense or distress.     What does acceptance look like for you?     Can you accept that her ability to function in a relationship is severely limited?   Can you accept that her illness may mean watching her spiral down into a more unhealthy place?     

It's important to be honest about what a relationship with her can be like.

'ducks

I’m not saying I’m going back in a relationship with her.  As much as I would love to go back to how we were before this I know that’s not possible. What I really would like is to be there for her if she needs me.  I expect her to lose both parents soon (her dad is stage IV cancer and mom is just poor health). When that happens I anticipate she will crack   

[WorriedHusband]

To add to this...


Think about how she does conflict and/or intensity.  Now, think about how you have responded in the past, it's VERY important that you are able to be DELIBERATE about steering the relationship to "simple" and "short" even when she is doing her best to complicate/enrage/add fuel (you name it).

Note..it will appear in the moment that she does NOT appreciate you efforts at simplicity and short, yet please rest assured that is a much better place for you to focus...regardless of her opinion of it.

Thoughts?

Best,

FF

I actually have an understanding of what she has and how to better communicate with her. I have a much better understanding of conflict resolution now.  Before I knew better I would JADE. Had I known before what I was dealing with I think I could have prevented this from happening the way it did

[babyducks]

I’m not saying I’m going back in a relationship with her.  As much as I would love to go back to how we were before this I know that’s not possible. What I really would like is to be there for her if she needs me.  I expect her to lose both parents soon (her dad is stage IV cancer and mom is just poor health). When that happens I anticipate she will crack   

WH -

If you want to be there for her when she loses her parents you are planning on some kind of relationship with her.   Whether it is as a friend, or a care giver, or some other loosely defined relationship.

This is from the Lessons Section of this board:

If you are in this type of relationship it is important to have realistic expectations for what the relationship can be in terms of consistent respect, trust and support, honesty and accountability, and in terms of negotiation and fairness, or expectations of non-threatening behavior.  It is important to accept the relationship behavior for what it is - not hope the person will permanently return to the idealization phase, not accept the external excuses for the bad behavior, and not hope that changing your behavior to heal someone else.

Realistic expectations also means mature expectations.   

[babyducks]

I actually have an understanding of what she has and how to better communicate with her. I have a much better understanding of conflict resolution now.  Before I knew better I would JADE. Had I known before what I was dealing with I think I could have prevented this from happening the way it did

This is an interesting thought.   I am not quite seeing it.    On Friday you blocked her after a long text saying you love her and always will.   Saturday you reached out to her and you are going to get together today.

I am going to suggest this is not a good or improved communication pattern. 

Are you still getting together today?   What's the plan for the meet up?   

[WorriedHusband]

This is an interesting thought.   I am not quite seeing it.    On Friday you blocked her after a long text saying you love her and always will.   Saturday you reached out to her and you are going to get together today.

I am going to suggest this is not a good or improved communication pattern. 

Are you still getting together today?   What's the plan for the meet up?   

Honestly, I still love her.  I have realistic expectations I think.  I understand she has severe mental illness, but I accept that.  We have talked and she is agreeable to therapy and it was actually her idea, but I have never mentioned BPD to her. I’m still hesitant to get back involved romantically.  I now understand much more about her mental illness and I can easily see how her emotions swing back and forth. 

I would actually like to here from some people on this board that have actually been able to make a relationship work and have been successful with all of this

[formflier]

  I understand she has severe mental illness, but I accept that.

Do you also accept that if you choose to be in a relationship with you that you are choosing to embrace the impact of mental illness on the relationship...and on you.

To you, does this (my wording) sound like nuance compared to yours or a fundamentally different statement.

We have talked and she is agreeable to therapy and it was actually her idea

What if she is "agreeable" but doesn't follow through?

I would actually like to here from some people on this board that have actually been able to make a relationship work and have been successful with all of this

I suppose I would be in that category.  

I certainly have found a way to make it work, I'm reluctant to use the word "successful".

For me, acceptance means experiencing life without defense or distress.     What does acceptance look like for you?     Can you accept that her ability to function in a relationship is severely limited?   Can you accept that her illness may mean watching her spiral down into a more unhealthy place?    

It's important to be honest about what a relationship with her can be like.

You can't make this stuff up.  The day prior to babyducks posting this, my wife did/said/believed some things that got me all twisted up.  I spent a good part of the day blaming her (at least in my mind...my internal voice).

That evening I had a conversation with my P (PhD level psychologist) who essentially said the same things babyducks said, but with a bit of nuance.

Then I read this post.

Then I spent most of the day "blaming" myself, after all...who is really responsible for the impact of FFw's apparent mental illness on my life.

Even today, I wouldn't want to claim I've got it all sorted out or that I fully "accept" the situation as it is.

These relationships are doable, but are not for the faint of heart

Best,

FF

[maxsterling]

Reading though your thread here - I can really feel for your situation, and I have experienced much of the same.

I see some VERY good language on the last page about expectations. 

You love her and want things to go back to "normal".  Boy do I get that.

What's hard is changing your expectation of what "normal" is.

Over 7 years, I have changed expectations of what the relationship with my W can be.  She has a very serious mental illness that will not get better.  I've had to accept that us "growing old together" is no where close to something I can control.  There is a real possibility she could suddenly move out, abandon me and the kids, and block us.  There is a real possibility she will commit suicide.   There is a real possibility she could wind up in jail or a long term mental health facility.    There is a real possibility that I will have to take drastic action to protect myself and the kids from her. 

I made an error in assuming that getting married, having kids, health insurance, etc would give my W a sense of stability and things would improve.  It didn't.  When my relationship was at your stage a few months after we were married, she had a breakdown and attempted suicide.  Then she took a vacation by herself for about a month.  Her being upset with me and wanting to move out was the initiative for her to get a job which she managed to keep for over a year (the longest she has kept a job her whole life).  I am guessing your W is reacting to the life changes.  My W says that is what she was reacting to. 

My goal right now is deciding whether this is something I can continue to accept for the long term, and if this type of relationship is acceptable to me or our children. 

I think that is what you need to think about when considering the future with your W.  The behavior you have seen recently is part of her "normal" rather than an exception.  Unfortunately, acceptance of that behavior is part of being in a relationship with her.