BPD and the capacity for empathy

[HarmKrakow]

Part of BPD issue is that they are too empathic that they are in constant pain because of this. This doesn't feel/seem like they show us empathy, but in reality the brain function where empathy is located is a lot more active with someone with BPD than with a NON. It's like if someone with BPD has all the characteristics of a Bi-polar person but not that one from a pwBPD... oh wait  than it's not a pwBPD but someone with bipolar issues.

It's to simple to think that if you have to much empathy, you realize others care about you. Sentences like that actually show me that you are quite sane :P

[goldylamont]

HarmKrakow you bring up some good points. So, I believe that empathy has several classifications and definitions. my "layman's" definition of empathy is when one person can feel and understand the emotions that another person is feeling, and also not want to treat this other person in ways they would not like to be treated--this i think is horribly warped in a pwBPD.

but there's other classes of empathy that i'm sure they could be overly sensitive in--like empathy for fictionalized characters in their head, or understanding enough about other's emotions to say things to control them or know what not to say so that they aren't caught in a lie. this kind of empathy i would say my ex had in spades, it just didn't have much to do with 'reality' as most people would accept.

for instance, if a person is a classic narcissist then we may loosely say that they have no "empathy" b/c they don't really care about how their actions affect other people, but surely to be an effective narcissist you are well practiced at understanding people, their behaviors and how to get them to do what you want. so, different types of empathy.

check out this wikipedia on the different types of empathy, interesting nonetheless:

www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_empathy#Affective_and_cognitive_empathy

[Phoenix.Rising]

I'm not sure that I believe pwBPD have more or less empathy than others.  I think the heart of their problem lies in their inability to regulate their emotions, or emotional dysregulation.  In a given situation where I might feel empathy at a level of 5 on a scale of 1 to 10, the pwBPD might feel it as a 10+++.  And since they don't have the ability to control this, their feelings end up becoming their reality.  

Thus, on the other end of the spectrum where if I'm feeling empty or indifferent about a situation and its a 5 on a scale of 1 to 10, the pwBPD is feeling a 10+++, so to us it appears they have no feeling, and that may be true to some extent.  We often talk about that empty, hollow look in their eyes.  That is emotional dysregulation, and it is out of their control.  That must be very difficult to live with.  I assume its similar to the difference between turning on a water faucet half-way as opposed to turning it on full force.  That is what happens with their emotions.  The pressure is turned on full force and they don't know how to turn it down or off.

Naddred, My ex started dating very soon after we separated and ended up marrying someone she dated for just a few months.  As another person stated, to them alone=death.  This, in my opinion, does not excuse bad behavior because I believe they do have the option to get some kind of help.  It does seem difficult, however, for them to hold any type of awareness of their problem for any length of time in order to seek consistent help.  My feeling is they have to hit a very hard bottom in most cases to reach out for help.  I'm sorry you are hurting, but like others told me, you probably dodged a bullet.  Just keep breathing in and out and moving forward.  You will be ok.

[HarmKrakow]

HarmKrakow you bring up some good points. So, I believe that empathy has several classifications and definitions. my "layman's" definition of empathy is when one person can feel and understand the emotions that another person is feeling, and also not want to treat this other person in ways they would not like to be treated--this i think is horribly warped in a pwBPD.

but there's other classes of empathy that i'm sure they could be overly sensitive in--like empathy for fictionalized characters in their head, or understanding enough about other's emotions to say things to control them or know what not to say so that they aren't caught in a lie. this kind of empathy i would say my ex had in spades, it just didn't have much to do with 'reality' as most people would accept.

for instance, if a person is a classic narcissist then we may loosely say that they have no "empathy" b/c they don't really care about how their actions affect other people, but surely to be an effective narcissist you are well practiced at understanding people, their behaviors and how to get them to do what you want. so, different types of empathy.

check out this wikipedia on the different types of empathy, interesting nonetheless:

www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_empathy#Affective_and_cognitive_empathy

What I meant was that pwBPD have an overly sense of empathy in comparison to non's. It's easy to confuse that with, more empathy? That means they should behave nicer to us no? Well, not if your sense of empathy in your brain is to such a certain extent it hurts your brain and thus you end up in the crazy-making the pwBPD is famous for. -> www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3401423. A pwBPD has a advanced overly developed empathy feelings, but to such an extent that it's overflowing.

It's in the contrast of the NPD, who has no empathy what so ever (selfish pricks they are :P).

Eventually they are the same, both seem to lack all sense of empathy cuz they do us pain. Scientifically it's the other way around. It makes sense, especially when you try to differentiate NPD/BPD's.

[Learning_curve74]

[What I meant was that pwBPD have an overly sense of empathy in comparison to non's. It's easy to confuse that with, more empathy? That means they should behave nicer to us no? Well, not if your sense of empathy in your brain is to such a certain extent it hurts your brain and thus you end up in the crazy-making the pwBPD is famous for. -> www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3401423. A pwBPD has a advanced overly developed empathy feelings, but to such an extent that it's overflowing.

There is evidence that BPD empathy is stunted and incomplete:

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23389774

The neurobiology of empathy in borderline personality disorder.

Authors

Ripoll LH, et al.

Journal

Curr Psychiatry Rep. 2013 Mar;15(3):344. doi: 10.1007/s11920-012-0344-1.

Affiliation

Department of Psychiatry One Gustave L. Levy Place, Mount Sinai School of Medicine, Box 1230, New York, NY 10029, USA. Luis.ripoll@mssm.edu

Abstract

We present a neurobiological model of empathic dysfunction in borderline personality disorder (BPD) to guide future empirical research. Empathy is a necessary component of interpersonal functioning, involving two distinct, parallel neural networks. One form of empathic processing relies on shared representations (SR) of others' mental states, while the other is associated with explicit mental state attribution (MSA). SR processing is visceral and automatic, contributing to attunement, but also emotional contagion. MSA processing contributes to deliberate, perspectival forms of empathic understanding. Empathic dysfunction in BPD may involve hyper-reactivity of SR networks and impairment of MSA networks. Nevertheless, this empathic dysfunction is subtle, but contributes to interpersonal difficulties. Interaction between genetic factors and traumatic attachment stressors may contribute to development of BPD, with painful attachment insecurity and disorganization affecting SR and MSA network functioning. Future avenues for BPD research will include developmental assessment of attachment and neurobiological functioning under varying conditions.

PMID 23389774

So the theory is that pwBPD can suffer from emotional contagion (picking up and feeling the emotions of people around them), but they have an impairment in mental state attribution, in other words they have a difficult time identifying why you feel a certain way, i.e. they have a problem identifying others' beliefs, intents, and desires; in the worst cases they cannot distinguish that you have beliefs and desires separate from their own, kind of like how an extremely young infant doesn't distinguish their mother as a separate entity. I have seen this up close and personal with my exBPDgf; she once told me that I was "a part of her" (I shudder at the memory). If somebody cannot figure out why you are angry, the simplest explanation is that they must be the causative agent, especially when everything revolves around them just like an infant. Unfortunately that feeds into BPD sense of non-worth, shame, and emptiness from which they need to flee, so no wonder they need to push us away.

Of course there is value when somebody feels sad when you feel sad; there is greater value when they feel your sadness and understand why as well.

[Skip]

I think it is certainly true that many with BPD have a heightened awareness of others emotions.  Empathy is something else.

The DSM 5.0 working group went as far as to establish 4 deficiencies that can define all personality disorders --  either "empathy or intimacy" and either "identity or self direction".

They defined empathy and the levels of deficiency.  This was really eyeopening for me.  You can certainly see that there are a lot of people with some level of deficiency - including many of us.

This has really helped me calibrate empathy in myself and others and to apply this standard to myself and ask if my empathy in a certain situation is deficient.

Impaired (2) is interesting.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=210574.msg12327013#msg12327013

DSM 5 Empathy Assessment Levels

Healthy (0) Capable of accurately understanding others’ experiences and motivations in most situations. Comprehends and appreciates others’ perspectives, even if disagreeing. Is aware of the effect of own actions on others.

Mild impairment (1) Somewhat compromised in ability to appreciate and understand others’ experiences; may tend to see others as having unreasonable expectations or a wish for control. Although capable of considering and understanding different perspectives, resists doing so. Inconsistent is awareness of effect of own behavior on others.

Impaired (2) Hyper-attuned to the experience of others, but only with respect to perceived relevance to self. Excessively self-referential; significantly compromised ability to appreciate and understand others’ experiences and to consider alternative perspectives. Generally unaware of or unconcerned about effect of own behavior on others, or unrealistic appraisal of own effect.

Very Impaired (3) Ability to consider and understand the thoughts, feelings and behavior of other people is significantly limited; may discern very specific aspects of others’ experience, particularly vulnerabilities and suffering. Generally unable to consider alternative perspectives; highly threatened by differences of opinion or alternative viewpoints. Confusion or unawareness of impact of own actions on others; often bewildered about peoples’ thoughts and actions, with destructive motivations frequently misattributed to others.

Extreme Impairment (4) Pronounced inability to consider and understand others’ experience and motivation. Attention to others' perspectives virtually absent (attention is hypervigilant, focused on need-fulfillment and harm avoidance). Social interactions can be confusing and disorienting.

[Tryingnottoslip]

I am in no way hostile or challenging in my post

But I just don't understand. How could one have TOO much empathy yet seem/act out behaviors which prove quite the opposite?

[Learning_curve74]

I am in no way hostile or challenging in my post

But I just don't understand. How could one have TOO much empathy yet seem/act out behaviors which prove quite the opposite?

Hey Trying, it is confusing! Take a look at what goldylamont linked to at wikipedia, which also what is discussed in the scientific article I linked to as well:

Empathy can be divided into two major components:

Affective empathy, also called emotional empathy: the capacity to respond with an appropriate emotion to another's mental states. Our ability to empathize emotionally is supposed to be based on emotional contagion: being affected by another's emotional or arousal state.

Cognitive empathy: the capacity to understand another's perspective or mental state. The terms cognitive empathy and theory of mind are often used synonymously, but due to a lack of studies comparing theory of mind with types of empathy, it is unclear whether these are equivalent.

So pwBPD seem to have "too much" affective empathy, in that they may be hypersensitive to others' emotions and can suffer from a form of "emotional contagion". But they lack or suffer deficits in cognitive empathy which is what allows them to understand your perspective or mental state, basically why you might be feeling the way you do.

If you simply feel angry, sad, happy, or whatever another person feels that is different from understanding why they feel that way. I always say this: To understand why a person does something, you have to understand the way they think. A person with BPD seems to have a disability in connecting your feelings with why you are feeling that way, or at least that is one theory.

[charred]

I can understand the confusion. To me the pwBPD is like a 3 yr old. They give signs of being sympathetic/empathetic... but it is not who they are.

My pwBPD... was touched by every cause, wanted to contribute to every group. She liked the idea of being a bleeding heart concerned person. A 3 year old can see something like a kitten get attacked by a dog and be very hurt/upset by it, react to other kids being yelled at with empathy, and give you the impression they are empathetic. Then when something doesn't go their way, its 100% them, they have a tantrum, they hurt someone, they don't care at all. 

There is a difference between the casual non-personally involved empathy/sympathy that a young kid has... .and genuine empathy/sympathy. The genuine type usually develops after 3 yrs old... and in the BPD person, doesn't develop at all. Its not that they don't show signs of empathy at times, and act sympathetic... .its that they genuinely... are not empathetic.

[bpdspell]

Well definitions or not my ex could give a rat's *ss about my feelings and he certainly lacked the ability to put himself in other people's shoes. With him there was always a hidden agenda so if he gave ANYTHING it was based on his tit for tat emotionally stunted values.

My ex knew he hurt me many times and didn't care. All he cared about was his own shame and reputation…not about how he abused me.

Spell

[GreenMango]

Impaired Empathy

Impaired (2) Hyper-attuned to the experience of others, but only with respect to perceived relevance to self. Excessively self-referential; significantly compromised ability to appreciate and understand others’ experiences and to consider alternative perspectives. Generally unaware of or unconcerned about effect of own behavior on others, or unrealistic appraisal of own effect.

It's not the lack of emotions.  It's the self referential emotions and the inability to see the causal relationship between actions and effects on others.

[PotentiallyKevin]

Reminds me of id vs ego. A young child which is almost 100% id driven is very susceptible to picking up the emotions of those in close proximity. If mommy is upset, they are upset. This isn't empathy as we define it in terms of prosocial behavior.

[Pretty Woman]

I would find she could be really empathetic and very affected by issues and things outside her immediate circle ( like the death of a friend of a friends son) but she had no reaction when I was feeling down (like when I found out my dad has Parkinsons).  Whenever I was sad or stressed it would trigger her and she was very insensitive.  Usually she would dump me right after. 

[Hutsepotmetworst]

I would find she could be really empathetic and very affected by issues and things outside her immediate circle ( like the death of a friend of a friends son) but she had no reaction when I was feeling down (like when I found out my dad has Parkinsons).  Whenever I was sad or stressed it would trigger her and she was very insensitive.  Usually she would dump me right after. 

Recognize this perfectly... .

Whenever I wasn't for a single moment not all over her, I got "What's wrong ? Are you mad at me ? Don't you love me no more ?".

Explaining that there was nothing wrong, or that I was tired after work, or whatever, was just adding oil to the fire. It always ended up in her raging at me.

[Skip]

Affective empathy, also called emotional empathy is... .

Cognitive empathy: the capacity to understand another's... .

Good thread.

A little fact checking... .

Its not that they don't show signs of empathy at times, and act sympathetic... .its that they genuinely... are not empathetic.

Sympathy and empathy are very different things. A lot of people confuse them.  Empathy is derived from a psychology term and is the ability to understand how another person is thinking/feeling.

For example, if your explanation of why your ex did hit_ is that she is "crazy", then your empathy skills are not great.  If you had listened to her, empathetically over the time you were together, you would have a good understanding of how she sees and feels things.  It's a skill that you can develop here at bpdfamily.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=210574.0

So pwBPD seem to have "too much" affective empathy, in that they may be hypersensitive to others' emotions and can suffer from a form of "emotional contagion".

"Emotional contagion" is not a pathogen or dysfunctional state - when one person laughs and the others in the room follow site - laughing is contagious.

[maxen]

I would find she could be really empathetic and very affected by issues and things outside her immediate circle ( like the death of a friend of a friends son) but she had no reaction when I was feeling down (like when I found out my dad has Parkinsons).  Whenever I was sad or stressed it would trigger her and she was very insensitive.

this was my experience also. she even expressed anger about my depression.

[ucmeicu2]

here's an excerpt from an interesting article abt BPD and Empathy from Psychology Today:

www.psychologytoday.com/blog/stop-walking-eggshells/201309/do-people-borderline-disorder-have-empathy

"Making Sense of Different Opinions



Empathy is an emotion, and people with BPD have low emotional intelligence (The Essential Family Guide to Borderline Personality Disorder, Hazelden: 2008). This means they have difficulty knowing their own emotions, managing their emotions, and recognizing emotions in others. As Kiera says, people with BPD are nearly always in emotional overload, encumbered by negative painful feelings constantly begging for attention. So when there seems to lack empathy, it's not a deficit so much as a complication of trying to pay attention to your feelings and desires when, like a small child, they're so consumed by their own.



But what may not  come naturally can be learned. Mentalization, a new form of BPD treatment, teaches people with BPD to understand the workings of their own minds and those of others. In mentalization based therapy (MBT) they learn to tease out projections (their own feelings projected on another person), comprehend other people's realities, and figure out how their behavior influences others.  "

my BPDex was very capable of both sympathy and empathy.  just not consistently.

[Naddred369]

Pheonixrising, thankyou for your thoughts. Im still alive, still breathing!

[Phoenix.Rising]

Pheonixrising, thankyou for your thoughts. Im still alive, still breathing!

You're welcome, Naddred369.  I've been told that breathing and being vertical (above ground) are definite pluses! 

[RecycledNoMore]

Well definitions or not my ex could give a rat's *ss about my feelings and he certainly lacked the ability to put himself in other people's shoes. With him there was always a hidden agenda so if he gave ANYTHING it was based on his tit for tat emotionally stunted values.

My ex knew he hurt me many times and didn't care. All he cared about was his own shame and reputation…not about how he abused me.

Spell

Ditto, this concept is VERY had to wrap my mind around, not sure he was feeling overwhelming empathy when he was choking the life out of me or, sexting other girlfriends, or cheating repeatedly, or blaming me for his abusive ways or picking a fight with my mum, or lying about anything that came out of his mouth or making fun of peoples sexual orientation, colour , religious beliefs... .

[goldylamont]

here's an excerpt from an interesting article abt BPD and Empathy from Psychology Today:

www.psychologytoday.com/blog/stop-walking-eggshells/201309/do-people-borderline-disorder-have-empathy

"Making Sense of Different Opinions



Empathy is an emotion, and people with BPD have low emotional intelligence (The Essential Family Guide to Borderline Personality Disorder, Hazelden: 2008). This means they have difficulty knowing their own emotions, managing their emotions, and recognizing emotions in others. As Kiera says, people with BPD are nearly always in emotional overload, encumbered by negative painful feelings constantly begging for attention. So when there seems to lack empathy, it's not a deficit so much as a complication of trying to pay attention to your feelings and desires when, like a small child, they're so consumed by their own.



But what may not  come naturally can be learned. Mentalization, a new form of BPD treatment, teaches people with BPD to understand the workings of their own minds and those of others. In mentalization based therapy (MBT) they learn to tease out projections (their own feelings projected on another person), comprehend other people's realities, and figure out how their behavior influences others.  "

my BPDex was very capable of both sympathy and empathy.  just not consistently.

ucmeicu2 i have to agree with your last statement, i feel my ex could show both sympathy and empathy, but just not consistently. however, she also totally lacked empathy whenever she was pissed off. i'm not saying at all that a pwBPD is unable to feel other people's emotions, however, when they go into 'hater' mode, they really don't care what their partner feels. well, on second thought i think it's actually closer to the truth that they know that we are hurting and that they are tuned into this pain so that they can pile more of it onto us.

i totally agree with the article that pwBPD are so caught up in their own negative emotions that they don't have any room left to figure out someone else's emotions -- but then that right there is the definition of lacking empathy. you don't care about anyone's emotions but your own. i'm not arguing that they are unfeeling robots, quite the contrary. but when disregulated, while they are feeling intense emotions, it has nothing to do with the people around them.

my ex could show me and others empathy and compassion. but once she made up her mind that i had slighted her--no empathy. she was too caught up hating me and/or herself. the reasons behind this are interesting, but don't negate the fact of their behavior.