Implemented some boundaries, now SIL isn’t talking to us.

[Lien]

This is my first post, very grateful for the community here and the threads I've read already.

We suspect that my husband's sister has uBPD. She is undiagnosed, but exhibits many of the DSM-IV criteria. Over the course of the past year, my husband and I got engaged, married and have started our new lives together. It's been a time of great joy for us, but it has also brought out some very difficult situations with my SIL.

My relationship with her started well. She's bright, creative and can really turn on the charm. She's ten years younger than me, and I found a real connection with her being the "big sister she never had" (there are only the two of them).

There were many painful instances that have come up throughout the past year (though, I grant you that none of them are as bad as what some people have faced). I found out that after I met my in-laws for the first time, my SIL, who I knew for months beforehand, told them she was concerned for her brother's sake and that I was manipulative. All while she was being chummy with me, showing up at my house and doing things with me, calling me a good friend and saying that she was worried my DH and I would break up and she'd lose me. (She's lost many friends, including most recently being kicked out of a wedding in the fall that she was in as the maid of honour for her best friend, who she set up with her cousin). When we announced our engagement to the family, she started crying, ran out of the room and sped away, disappearing for hours. There have been tantrums and fits, crying in the department store when I didn't respond the way she expected, or throwing a binder across the room when her boss wouldn't answer her calls. There were constantly difficulties around our wedding, even though we made things exceptionally easy on her because we thought she was having a tough time. She announced the week before the wedding that she had found a place and would be moving out of her parents' house the morning after our wedding. She expected the family to help out and they did so that she wouldn't cause problems the day of the wedding. The day of the wedding, she drew attention to herself, laying on the floor of the salon, forgot her makeup at home and expected the lady doing my makeup to do hers (we paid for their dresses and hair, the only thing they had to figure out was makeup) and more. We had two weeks reprieve with out honemoon and then there were endless calls to her brother about how the family wouldn't want her at events because they didn't love her or they think she was a terrible person after being kicked out of the wedding. We were exhausted from the constant crisis after crisis, and being dragged into things.

Her brother talked with her before Christmas, pointing out her part in the drama (he's a very practical man) and spoke with her about how she needs to work on her attitude. Then chaos ensued, with her calling her parents and getting them involved etc. (My in-laws are so sweet, but definitely get caught up easily into the throes of her chaos because they are very supportive of their children and tend to take everything at face value when someone says something, especially my MIL). My husband and I had some conversations about the boundaries we need to be setting up, and I began doing some research into what possible things could be contributing to this cycle (I have a background in Child and Youth Studies and toyed with getting an undergraduate in Psychology). When we found the DSM-IV criteria, it clicked that this is quite possibly what my SIL struggles with.

After that realization, we have been actively working on navigating the relationship in a way that is healthy for all those involved. She asked me to help with finding a venue for her wedding and so I obliged hesitantly due to past experiences. I carefully said that she wasn't obligated to take any of my suggestions, but I gave her a list of venue options that suited her needs. My husband and I agreed that I could help with very specific tasks, but limit my overall involvement even though I love helping out with events like these. We had gotten ourselves into too many pickles with help backfiring. And backfire it did! Again, triangulation occurred and, while to my face she was saying how grateful she was but I ended up getting a call from my MIL who gently suggested I back off because my SIL was feeling overwhelmed by all the pressure from me, that she plans differently than I do and that my SIL didn't want to hurt my feelings by coming to me directly.

My husband and I discussed what to do now, and we took a two step process, to the best of our ability, to set up some boundaries. We talked face to face with my SIL (and gave her the option of having her future husband there for support, which she took - which is a good thing, I'm not sure how much he realizes. I think he thinks she just "gets anxious" explaining how much we loved her and how some experiences this past year have hurt us greatly, then setting up some boundaries and offering to help her pay for counselling if she wanted it because we were worried about her. We stuck with her for a couple hours after telling all this to her and left saying we loved her. Then we talked with my in-laws and said that we couldn't any longer be drawn into the drama. That we couldn't keep defending ourselves against what she was saying to them, especially when they themselves know what she can be like. They were incredibly receptive at the time because they, too, were concerned about their daughter.

But now we sit a couple months later. She hasn't spoken to us during that time (except once when she called her brother to ask if he was going to choose to not be in her wedding, and to say that she didn't agree with what we said and to say that he wasn't a good brother growing up), and we have decided to be low contact unless she initiates a conversation to deal with things. We have had two family events where we've awkwardly sat at the table together, but other than that there has been silence.

How do you navigate this type of relationship? We truly love her and want to be there for her, but don't want to involve ourselves more in continuing the pattern that is not only not good for us, but obviously keeping her in a miserable place.

[Mutt]

Hi Lien,  



Id like to welcome you to bpdfamily I’m sorry to hear that you and your DH are having difficulties navigating these waters. It’s good that you know that she had BPD traits at least you know what you’re dealing with as you know we’re not professionals and can’t diagnose. You already know about drama triangles it sounds like you handled it well when MIL was rescuing your SIL, the best position to be is in the center of the triangle as it has elements from all three corners. You can click the link and read more about drama triangles.

It sounds like you’re handling it well overall you know that you need to have boundaries and you don’t want to rescue her because in the long term she has to be dependent and if someone else does what she’s supposed to be doing as an adult there is not much incentive for her to get help?

Learn as much as you can about BPD it will help with depersonalizing the behaviours and it will help with normalizing the disorder. I’d suggest to use validation and SET ( support, empathy and truth ) to help smooth out the rough edges with communicating with a pwBPD. A pwBPD are hyper sensitive to rejection and have low self esteem / self worth. Feelings = facts unlike feelings are followed by facts for non’s start by showing support, followed by validating her feelings and pack your truth at the end for example I can help with your wedding. I can understand how much stress organizing a wedding is and it can feel lonely if you’re doing it all by yourself. I’ll be glad to help with ____________ and spell out exactly what you’ll help with a pwBPD really struggle with ambiguity and it will give her reassurance.

Im glad that you decided to join us it helps to talk others that are going through similar things as you. You’re not alone.

[Speck]

Hello, Lien!

 

Please allow me to join Mutt in welcoming you to the discussion forums. I'm so sorry for what you're going through but glad you have found a community where many of us have been through similar experiences, and we can learn from each other. I believe that you have found the best place in the world for understanding, compassion, and education as it relates to BPD, or facing emotionally intense relationships (as the byline of our logo says). So…we support each other here. I was a little scared when I joined, but mostly about having my fears confirmed. Now that they have been, I'm feeling much better. 

So, again, welcome!

Thank you for sharing with us what you have thus far:

How do you navigate this type of relationship? We truly love her and want to be there for her, but don't want to involve ourselves more in continuing the pattern that is not only not good for us, but obviously keeping her in a miserable place.

You are among peers, friend. Unfortunately, there are legions of us! I'm so sorry you are experiencing this. However, I think you'll find a lot of parallels here - lots of members (including me) have similar stories. You will see from reading the posts here that you are far from alone.

There are also site articles and helpful tools that can be utilized by you to help you navigate this relationship. The tools are for YOU, but in time, hopefully, they will assist in improving your overall relationship with your SIL.

I think a good next right step that will lend itself to a path of more harmony and peace for yourself and your husband would be to learn as much as you can about BPD and then set three types of boundaries with your SIL: Physical boundaries, Mental boundaries, and Emotional boundaries. Once you set them, then it's up to your SIL to respect them.


I believe you will be greatly comforted by the support here and the fact that we really understand what you are going through. We've all been there to varying degrees. Take care of yourself. We will look out for future posts from you.

Keep writing, keep processing, keep learning!


-Speck

[Harri]

Hi Lien.  I want to say welcome along with Mutt and speck both of whom have given you some great responses and resources to start with.  There is not much for me to add at this point other than to echo what they said.  You have found a place where a lot of people can relate and will be able to help you figure your way through this difficult relationship.

After you have read the responses and articles please ask any questions you may have and feel free to discuss any aspect of the relationship that may be bothersome.

BTW, congrats on your marriage! 

[Lien]

Thank you so much for your warm welcome, Mutt, Speck and Harri!

I know about myself that I can get sucked into a vortex of thoughts and emotions, fixating on things, so I'm trying to be careful not to focus all my mental energy on her/our relationship, hence the delayed response. Working on those mental/emotional boundaries! I'm looking forward to reading more and seeing how my DH and I can be healthier, but I feel very affirmed in our choices so far. Thank goodness for sites like these and the helpful books we read! I can imagine that if we didn't have these resources, things would look quite a bit different.

I'm looking forward to figuring out our next steps (if there are any) and where to from here... .Still stuck on if we should initiate the re-connection with her or if we should wait and let her do so when she is ready for one.

[Speck]

Hello again, Lien:

How are things going for you?  What did you decide to do about reconnecting with your sister-in-law?

We're here if you need to talk.


-Speck

[Lien]

Hi Speck,

Things are going pretty well - though ask me again after next weekend! My MIL is preparing for the upcoming shower for my uBPD SIL's wedding shower in May and I'll be helping her make favours on Tuesday, so I will actively be trying to not get pulled in second-hand to the drama, and it is my uBPD SIL's birthday this coming week so we will have contact in person on Sunday evening.

My DH and I have talked and we reached out to my SIL once, saying that we loved her and were thinking of her - we wanted it to show her that the door was open still for a relationship if she was willing. We intentionally didn't ask how things were going, knowing through comments from family members that things aren't going very well for her (she's now working her parents against her future in-laws) and not wanting to enter back into the drama. She did reply with "Thanks, love you." but hasn't communicated since. This is where we'll leave it for now. It's such a tricky place to be in, since we had left things in January emphasizing strongly that we love her and want a relationship with her, but that we would treat her like a competent adult and wouldn't enable her any more. While I wish more than anything that my DH could have a relationship with his sister (and that I could too - she can really be a lot of fun!), I think that the reality of the situation means that the relationship I'm picturing is not the one she can give at this point in time.

I posted elsewhere about boundaries with the family members who haven't yet realized what we have, since I'm trying to be very careful not to get sucked into triangles. That's the part I'm finding the most challenging. I really love my DH's family, but because they care they do want us all to get along and for everyone to be happy and celebratory. This is proving tricky during this season as we prepare for my uBPD SIL's wedding, with the memories of how much damage she did during our wedding preparation. I've come to the point where I'm working on being honest with my MIL, knowing it will hurt her but also trying to remind myself that I'm not ultimately the source of the pain, saying that as things stand it is best if I'm not too involved in wedding-related matters, even though I would love to be. I've agreed to help out with very specific things (i.e. helping my MIL make the favours but not picking out what the favours will be; baking, but only baking what my MIL ) so that I can support my MIL but not run the risk of doing something to set off my SIL (though I know that *not* doing something will also upset her).

We've decided to make her a succulent planter for her birthday gift (I found some driftwood this summer that I dried out with the intention of making her a thank you gift for our wedding, but we ultimately decided not to give her a gift because what would we be thanking her for?), but we've decided not to give her a gift for her wedding shower, since she is asking for items that we already gave her and she... .well... .decided she didn't want. (Backstory: right before we got married in November, we gave her *everything* since we were combining two households. I've not had it easy and it took me years to collect some of these beautiful things. Originally she was grateful, then I don't know what happened. My FIL brought some of the boxes of kitchen items from my apartment to their place, where she was living in the basement, but didn't bring them down to her room and she left them outside for two weeks. Eventually I asked her about it and she said that a: she hurt her back, b: my FIL wouldn't help her and c: my MIL is "forcing" her to have a bridal shower so she didn't know if she wanted them anymore. As the weather turned worse, we finally asked her to let us know by the weekend if she wanted them or not because otherwise we'd give them to someone else. She just never replied, so my FIL packed it all back up and brought it to us and we gave it to a friend of mine who was starting out. Then, when my SIL moved out the day after our wedding she moaned to those around her that she didn't have anything, so my MIL who knew the situation, and her future MIL as well as others bought her new items... .and now she's asking for newer/fancier ones). I'm okay with the decision my DH and I have made, though I wish I would be able to just celebrate with her without having to think of all this nonsense, but I do dread that shower (happening in May) and the present opening ceremonies and hers and others' reactions. I know it is nothing I can control, but I dread it!

Well that was a rambling post! Sorry I'm a bit all over the place, but thank you so much for listening!

[Speck]

Hello again, Lien!

Thank you for continuing to share your story. I have a few things I'd like to comment on:

... .so I will actively be trying to not get pulled in second-hand to the drama, and it is my uBPD SIL's birthday this coming week so we will have contact in person on Sunday evening.

Being mindful of not being sucked into unnecessary drama is so key.  

My DH and I have talked and we reached out to my SIL once, saying that we loved her and were thinking of her - we wanted it to show her that the door was open still for a relationship if she was willing. This is where we'll leave it for now.

A good soft boundary is good. No need to toughen it up until warranted. Well done.

I found some driftwood this summer that I dried out with the intention of making her a thank you gift for our wedding, but we ultimately decided not to give her a gift because what would we be thanking her for?

The driftwood succulent planter is such a thoughtful thing to do! I hope that she enjoys the birthday gift. I can understand why she didn't receive it as a thank you gift for "helping out" with your wedding. No need to reward bad behavior. This is a tough lesson that I had to learn for myself, and it looks like you're already there.

Then, when my SIL moved out the day after our wedding she moaned to those around her that she didn't have anything, so my MIL who knew the situation, and her future MIL as well as others bought her new items... .and now she's asking for newer/fancier ones).

My uBPDxw was quite a damsel, too. I understand this phenomenon well.

I'm okay with the decision my DH and I have made... .

And, I think this is wonderful... .you've clearly done your homework on setting boundaries, validating what is valid, and stepping back from the fray. Excellent!

Keep doing what works, Lien, and pop in from time to time to let us know how things are going with you.

If next weekend poses a problem that you'd like to hash out here, well... .you know where to find us.  


-Speck

[Lien]

Hi Speck!

My husband received a call at lunchtime from my uBPD SIL asking if we could all talk. We've agreed to talk, since she spoke of "making things right". However she said we could talk over the phone, so we said that we would rather it be in person. There is less chance of misinterpretation, more body language etc. in person. Her fiance will be there, which is good for everyone, I believe. We'll see if she does follow through on the conversation, because our request to do so in person means she'll have to drive an hour and face up to things to our face instead of hiding behind a telephone/screen. I'm suspicious of the timing of this all, since it is her birthday celebration on Sunday and she may just be trying to make it all "right" for that.

It is SO hard for me regarding the gifts and expectations. The shower gift is the most difficult because it is noticeable in front of all these other people. It isn't that we don't want to be generous, it is just that we don't want to waste our time and energy when it has been so dismissed in the past.

Time will tell if she's just experiencing regret or if it is true remorse. I'm trying not to get my hopes up and trying not to be cynical at the same time.

[Speck]

Hey, Lien!

How did the talk with your uBPD SIL go?


-Speck

[Lien]

Well, Speck, it did not go. We gave her every available option in our calendar for last week and this week (which was a fair amount), and we even offered to switch up one evening to since none of the options we gave her were good, but alas nothing seemed to work. She never responded to our last text and I have a feeling that we won't hear about it again until she's feeling some sort of deep emotion about it.

We did have family dinner on Sunday for her birthday and my FIL's birthday. She came in and was acting like nothing happened and we were a big happy family. When my DH and I didn't respond with oozing affection, she ended up pouting the whole time and was fiercely miserable. We gave her the gift we made for her and were polite, but not really friendly or anything "extra".

My suspicions are that either a) she wanted the original phone call to be enough to make us forget everything she's done and be happy doting siblings for her birthday, or b) she truly felt bad in the moment (either felt bad for hurting us or felt bad for herself) and that feeling has passed so there is not any reason to deal with it right now for her. I think if she were feeling true remorse or contrition she would be trying to figure out a time that works so that she can make things right.

My MIL asked me about it, if we were talking at all etc. They (my DH's parents) have been really good overall about respecting the boundaries we have with them, especially that we don't want to spend our time with them talking about or dealing with my uBPD SIL's drama or the tension between us. I felt alright talking to my MIL at that time and was pleasantly surprised to hear her perspective (and she was speaking on behalf of her and my FIL). They completely understood that we cannot force my SIL to have a healthy relationship with us, that she has a responsibility to make some things right and that things will likely be awkward and tense unless my SIL addresses them and respects our boundaries moving forward. More interesting is that they themselves are starting to enforce boundaries with her. Albeit small ones, it is a good step to see them take that protection when they have been so taken advantage of and taken for granted.

So that leaves us here, not having contact with her, but not because of a NC enforcement, rather because she clearly understands that we aren't going to back down from our boundaries. My DH is now having to think about how comfortable he is to stand up in her wedding when she's, for all intents and purposes, cut him out of her life. I don't know that there is a right answer. He loves her so much and this really hurts him, but at the same time is conflicted about whether he is in support of this wedding (at this point in time, when she's so unhealthy) to a man that we've grown to love and want to have a good life. If she were getting help it would be one thing, if she were in communication with him it would also be different, but this makes you really evaluate your decisions and what they mean. Standing up for the sister of your childhood who you hope to have a good relationship with again, or stepping down to also help your sister hopefully see that change is needed and... .well, maybe she needs help?... .and to maintain your sanity. But that is rather idealistic of me, I think. If he steps down, all hell could break loose, whereas if he stands up for her it is going to be terribly uncomfortable for us all day, but not anyone else.

[Harri]

Hi  Lein.  Thanks for the update.  I apologize for being late with a reply. 

So it was a no go on the discussion.  <sighs> 

It sounds like you and your husband did very well at the birthday dinner.  It can be difficult to maintain a friendly distance but you did it.  I think it was Skip who posted somewhere (how that for specifics?) who said he tries to interact like always but without expectation or too much invested in the outcome.  It makes sense,  you still get to be you, follow your values and boundaries, act in a way that is appropriate and comfortable for everyone and if she acts up or can't receive what you are offering, it is not something that he is all that invested in.  Okay, so that is the gist of what he said, or at least how I took it.  He said it way better.  I can't find the post otherwise I would just quote him. 

Anyhoo, sorry for the detour.  Just got caught in my thinking scribbles! 

When is SILs wedding?  Has your husband decided what he wants to do?  It does seem like being in the wedding party would cause the least amount of upset for everyone the both of you.

[Lien]

Hi Harri!

Major <sighs>. My husband is better at not getting his hopes up than I am, but it is so hard sometimes to walk this journey with someone we love so much. It's difficult when you really want someone to FEEL how much you love them, but know that they likely don't or even won't, no matter what you do.

I do feel like we have been making the right decisions with our boundaries and maintaining them. I'm sure that if we pretended nothing was wrong and nothing ever happened then we'd be talking with her again instantly, but we know that isn't the best answer to the situation, for us and for her. We don't want to perpetuate the cycle, and we want to stand with compassion but also integrity. As you said,

you still get to be you, follow your values and boundaries, act in a way that is appropriate and comfortable for everyone and if she acts up or can't receive what you are offering, it is not something that he is all that invested in.

And besides, that relationship would be a farce anyways, not actually an authentic loving one.

My SIL's wedding is in mid-July. We thought and prayed a lot about it, and ended up deciding to message her saying that we were still here to have that talk that she wanted to have and we have opened up our schedule for the next week and a half to make that happen. If she truly wants to reconcile, we want to be able to pave the way for that, especially since it must be hard to step forward after so long (and the longer it gets, the harder it becomes), but if she doesn't take us up on this, I think we will be able to act in full integrity knowing she chose not to. While staying in the wedding party would certainly cause the least ripples and be in that way the "easiest", we don't know if it is the best decision for us for many reasons, including how painful it will be to not show our hurt and pain that whole day because it is "her day" even though the brokenness of the relationship is her choice, the inauthenticity of standing up there the day of knowing everything, the question of if standing up there crosses our boundaries etc. etc. But if she talks to us, then we can share our thoughts and feelings with her and hear her side as well, and we can make a decision from there.

Our intention and our hope has always been to have the healthiest relationship we can with her. That's why we talked with her about boundaries in January, and that is why we've enforced those boundaries since then, but that is also why we don't want to give up on showing her that there is an open door; the boundaries are not because we don't love her and we want to keep her distant, but because we do love her and want to be truly close, not just enmeshed, and we want all of us to be the healthiest we can be.

This sums up my thoughts really well on how we feel (Youtube: Brene Brown on Boundaries): https://youtu.be/vSbOIas6jFc