But isn’t the established connection what makes the sex great?

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But isn’t the established connection what makes the sex great?

This was certainly my experience.  It was the intense connection I felt for her, the hours we spent talking and laughing that I fell in love with.  

Yes... .sure... . the physical part of our relationship was great, but that was because we felt safe together and had a level of shared trust this laid fertile ground for 'great sex'.  She told me she never felt safe with previous lovers, never trusted them fully. This was likely hyperbole, but it felt nice to hear.

While we were together my resting heart rate would fall by 10 BPM -I simply felt at ease.  It felt, right from the beginning, as if she had always been in my life.  It was an uncanny feeling.  

She was beautiful, but I believe it was my not being concerned with her looks that drew her to me.  I never pushed her for sex.  In fact, she told me I was the first person she had been with where sex did not feel like an obligation.  I told her laughing I did not look at it as an obligation with her either... . 

She had been objectified in all of her past relationships.  In retrospect I believe she may crave a level of being objectified, because perhaps it is safer for her.  If she is an object, then she doesn't have to fear abandonment --she can count on it.

I fell in love with her mind and her soul.  Ultimately it was fractures in both which became our undoing.


Wicker Man

[Wicker Man]

Topic split out by moderation... .

But isn’t the established connection what makes the sex great?

This was certainly my experience.  It was the intense connection I felt for her, the hours we spent talking and laughing that I fell in love with.  

Yes... .sure... . the physical part of our relationship was great, but that was because we felt safe together and had a level of shared trust this laid fertile ground for 'great sex'.  She told me she never felt safe with previous lovers, never trusted them fully. This was likely hyperbole, but it felt nice to hear.

While we were together my resting heart rate would fall by 10 BPM -I simply felt at ease.  It felt, right from the beginning, as if she had always been in my life.  It was an uncanny feeling.  

She was beautiful, but I believe it was my not being concerned with her looks that drew her to me.  I never pushed her for sex.  In fact, she told me I was the first person she had been with where sex did not feel like an obligation.  I told her laughing I did not look at it as an obligation with her either... . 

She had been objectified in all of her past relationships.  In retrospect I believe she may crave a level of being objectified, because perhaps it is safer for her.  If she is an object, then she doesn't have to fear abandonment --she can count on it.

I fell in love with her mind and her soul.  Ultimately it was fractures in both which became our undoing.


Wicker Man

[Jeffree]

Then I had one heck of an established connection with my ex!  

To zachira's point, when my ex and I had reunited back in 2009 and met for the first time in 20+ years, we instantly connected, which led to an incredible explosion of passion.

We dated long distance, and every time we visIted one another it was the same thing... .lots of incredible sex, some basic activities in between, and on and on.

At one point I had joked that I had never seen (major West Coast city) and would like to see the sights when I am done being held prisoner as her sex slave. Again, it was a joke... .tinged with a bit of truth.

I never did get to tour that city, but at a certain point I did feel as though all the over-the-top sex was a bit much and it would be nice to function as a normal couple and go on dates out and about and have the sex take more of a backseat to connecting emotionally.

J

[BasementDweller]

I did feel as though all the over-the-top sex was a bit much and it would be nice to function as a normal couple and go on dates out and about and have the sex take more of a backseat to connecting emotionally.

I agree. For those types of relationships where the sexual explosion happens first, if it never evolves into something deeper, then yes, it may be time to cut your losses, and recognize that an intellectual bond doesn't/can't/won't exist. I think this can happen with all types of people, not just disordered ones. Unfortunately, even with a great connection, the disorder can and often will sadly prevent the relationship from coming to emotional fruition.

[Wicker Man]

Unfortunately, even with a great connection, the disorder can and often will sadly prevent the relationship from coming to emotional fruition.

It seemed impossible to drive a wedge between her and her disorder.  Personality disorders are essentially a world view and without professional therapy it is very unlikely, in my opinion, to be able to alter the behaviors from within the relationship.

@Jeffree if it was Los Angeles you did not miss anything... . Likely sex slave was a better choice... . San Francisco on the other hand... .Maybe you should have gone outside.  

When mine and I went to Hong Kong, our first time away from work together --we actually spent most of our time watching movies, eating street food and sleeping.  The connection was wonderful and deep.  It had very little to do with sex it was about intimacy.

--but as BasementDweller pointed out her disorder was our undoing.

Wicker Man

[Jeffree]

@Jeffree if it was Los Angeles you did not miss anything... .  Likely sex slave was a better choice... .  San Francisco on the other hand... .Maybe you should have gone outside.  smiley

It was the latter. I missed out. I did get to drive down Lombard St., at least.

J

[truthbeknown]

She told me she never felt safe with previous lovers, never trusted them fully. This was likely hyperbole, but it felt nice to hear.

Wow! my exgf said the same things. Almost like the same script!   She felt safe with me, she didn't normally do this with anyone else etc. etc.  I bet she used the same script for the next guy.  Only she was sleeping with both of us so I was the one who didn't feel safe anymore!  

I'll have to pay attention to that script going forward if there ever is a going forward.  I'm giving up on relationships right now because I seem to attract to many bees like this and they tell me how sweet i am but then take my nectar and bring it to other fields to pollinate.   At least that is what it feels like when they take the best you have to offer and cultivate it and give it to someone else.  Pretty bees or not they seem to have the same script.

[Wicker Man]

I believe she did love me when she loved me and did it passionately, then when she raged she hated me with the same passion.

  zachira I saw clearly she was not a stable person when we met, it was her excellence in her art form which attracted me.  There is rarely genius without a touch of madness... . Now that being said... .I underestimated the degree of 'madness'  She did rage with the same exquisite excellence as she performed her art -she was a ninja at being angry.

Did she use a lot of hyperbole?  Sure.  :)id she out and out lie sometimes?  Yep.  

But I do believe we loved each other.  :)efinitely for different reasons and they turned out to be incompatible.  If she did, in fact suffer from BPD, as I suspect her love for me may have been based in need.  Mine was based on the dream of giving her a safe place to heal, to learn and be inspired by her incredible sensitivity to art.  We learned, laughed, and cried together.

I learned and grew in our time together and through her was able to see a little bit more magic in the world.  She lives with one foot resting lightly in reality and the other one seems to be resting in a world only she knows fully.  I now suspect her world is a dark and painful place full of fear and echos of a painful childhood.

  truthbeknown I have come to believe everything she told me was true to her in that moment.  On some of the hyperbole I quietly and respectfully corrected her, but I told her I appreciated her trying to make the moments extra special.  

There were a lot of firsts for her and I know I was quite different from her past lovers.  If for no other reason cultural differences.  I treated her gently and as an equal.  As an example I do not consider sadness as weakness.  She had bouts of dysphoria and told me it was nice to not be called stupid or weak for being sad.  I told her I loved her whether she was happy or sad -so she could just be herself.  

To go back to the original thread.  I do not believe beauty is necessary a red flag.  Too much self disclosure too fast, enmeshment, needing love rather than desiring it are certainly red flags.  Pushing for physical intimacy too soon, lies, and ghosting friends... .red flags.  Self mutilation, dysphoria, and hearing voices... .further red flags.  


Wicker Man

[Wicker Man]

I was referring to subsequent posts.  I agree completely with zachira's statement and assessment.

[Cromwell]

The sex was great from the start, before I even began to know her, then it got even better as I believed I had achieved both sexual chemistry plus huge emotional intimacy.

Then the antics started and whilst emotionally enmeshed, and still infactuated, the sex was never what it had been, physically yes but never that original connection, it was almost as if each time was trying to get it back. So yes, the established connection is what made it great, but when that got disrupted there were times I felt in some way used, even though the physical chemistry was there. It is a big part of why I see no point in a recycle, yes initial make-up sex would be hot regardless, but beyond that she really has turned me off in many ways, it feels easy to say "no" and differentiate myself from those exs who still try to chase her.

now if only I had the foresight to have left her at the height of sex and emotional intamacy. Red flags a plenty, friends and family questioning the r/s, but who wants to walk away when you are getting that and expect it to continue.

[Wicker Man]

The sex was great from the start, before I even began to know her, then it got even better as I believed I had achieved both sexual chemistry plus huge emotional intimacy.

  Cromwell  In full disclosure this was another split thread from 'Hotness as a red flag' which I took exception to.  The tone was getting dark.

But... .Since I find myself in this quagmire too... . Here is my view... .For me there is no sex without love.  I have never had a 'one night stand' and simply cannot understand the notion.  If I don't care about the person I am with then there is no desire.  

':)ream Come True' was mystified at how slowly we took things.  I told her it is journey.  She came to my hotel room at work for weeks leaving with a long hug.  

It was a lovely and warm time -I believe for both of us.  Perhaps confusing for her, but hopefully warm.

Ironically perhaps my views were perhaps as alluring to her as people find BPD loving bombing.  Who can say.  We ended up creating quite a mess.


Wicker Man

[Jeffree]

For those types of relationships where the sexual explosion happens first, if it never evolves into something deeper, then yes, it may be time to cut your losses, and recognize that an intellectual bond doesn't/can't/won't exist.

This could be true.

However, in my case, I knew my ex from many years prior. We weren't friends per se, but we had a few conversations over the years we lived in the same neighborhood and even hung out together a couple of times.

Then we reconnected on FB about 20 years after we lost contact.

Then after a few weeks of emails and phone convos we reunited in person when she had to come East for a funeral.

The sexual explosion happened the first evening after the wake.

For me it was 30 years in the making. I fell for her the second I saw her back when I was 13 years old and I never forgot her.  For her, I think I was the right guy at the right time... .finally. She was still recovering from losing her mom and the father of her kids a week apart two years prior and being a widowed mom raising two kids and needing to re-find her footing in life.

She used to refer to me as the answer to her prayers. I referred to her as the girl of my dreams.

So I don't know if that is enough of a connection to ignite the fireworks we always had in the bedroom. That was just about the last thing that she managed to destroy and insult, so I know there had to be some enjoyment of this by her.

Even AFTER the connection began to unravel, and the frequency diminished, the intensity never waned... .at least not for me. She seemed to be able to take it or leave it in the very end, which caused me to lose interest in it, too.

J

[Cromwell]

@Cromwell  In full disclosure this was another split thread from 'Hotness as a red flag' which I took exception to.  The tone was getting dark.

But... .Since I find myself in this quagmire too... .  Here is my view... .For me there is no sex without love.  I have never had a 'one night stand' and simply cannot understand the notion.  If I don't care about the person I am with then there is no desire. 

':)ream Come True' was mystified at how slowly we took things.  I told her it is journey.  She came to my hotel room at work for weeks leaving with a long hug. 

It was a lovely and warm time -I believe for both of us.  Perhaps confusing for her, but hopefully warm.

Ironically perhaps my views were perhaps as alluring to her as people find BPD loving bombing.  Who can say.  We ended up creating quite a mess.

WM I cant see anything on your part that has created a mess for her, if anything it comes across based on her background as a positive person in her life. My ex wouldnt have reciprocated my re-establishing contact if she didnt at some level - if not love - feel strongly about me, she did, the problem was too much, she said so herself. I differentiated myself compared to the normal calibre of guys she went with. You were strong enough, wise enough, to leave before any opportunity would arise for a true calamity that would have altered your perception of what you have now instead. Sex was not "the" hook, if it was I would have left her 3 months in.

When you say "established connection" and link that towards "great", it goes with it an underlying assumption that the sex was always great due to the connection, this infers; wether good or bad connection at that particular time. The sex I had with her when I felt in the "nightmare being with her era" was based on a connection of distrust, still highly infactuated, afraid, loss of control - it wasnt great anymore, it felt like a role reversal of me now catering to her sexual needs when she felt she wanted it, compared to a time I craved it constantly and that connection was not just emotionally great but emotionally intense. When I felt great, and wanted sex, it was with held, whenever I felt dejected and not as interested, it was almost forced on.

The best sex was at the start of the r/s, not when I first met her, but when I was developing strong feelings, started to reciprocate the love bombing of a commited r/s where I allowed myself to be enmeshed. As soon as she had "caught me" in that I bought into love, is when the switch got pressed and the world turned upside down on its axis. Thats when out of nowhere I got messages "I cant handle you" "your too much sometimes" on these justifications she went elsewhere, the reality is that id fallen for her, as she wanted, but she couldnt handle it, it became emotionally engulfing. It was the precipice she couldnt cross despite wanting the same, what if she had and then I would have abandoned her? In reverse, I would be deeply disappointed, for her it would be monumental.

After she came back to me, she continued the sex where it left off, except overcompensated it, ramped it back up. It was clear by how I reacted that I was going to leave her, wanted to. For what I enjoyed previously, it wasnt anymore "great",  that connection I could only get back by going into a denial about the hurt caused. In short I didnt enjoy what I once craved, it had the byproduct effect of even further enhancing the emotional bond. Not only was I already enmeshed, but I had to compartmentalise the things "the one" did that hurt by getting even closer emotionally, and thats exactly what happened.

what once removed said is spot on in the other thread viz a viz how I felt "the relationship already ended, but we continued it on regardless"

you are talking over 2 years of being emotionally "connected" to a person, infactuated by them, blocking out into denial what they did, up to the stage of talking about marriage and kids. It was looking back, insane to go along with, but it was entirely feasible and comfortable for her, she was nonchalant that the intensity of having been loved got sabotaged, what mattered is id proven to her that I could be devastated hurt, she did and would patch me up each time, but the bottom line is that I never abandoned her for it.

Oh sure, I told myself I loved her still, but this wasnt anymore what it one was, it was my own comforting illusion of being with "the one" its just that "the one" happened to continually hurt me but this could simply be repressed away. It worked, I can emotionally look back and say I had mostly great r/s with her but to do so honest within myself and on a rational level, it was sleepwalking through a living nightmare. That was the "real" connection during sex, its just that at the time I didnt accept reality but my own protected version of it aswell as taking enough drugs and alcohol to assist in this distortion.

That you managed to have intimacy and established connection that wasnt sullied by her moments of hurting you during the r/s, then I can understand that you found it great. For me, it was great, but thereafter, it became trying to chase or recapture something that was lost, and the sensible healthy thing would have been to have walked away from it (as you did).

There still is a connection, its just that I choose now to be in control of it. Id like to think that ive learned about her condition, understand why things happened as they did, lets meet up and I know the sex would be great. but it would be a complete disrespect to myself, just as giving her sex when I didnt feel like it was, regardless of the infactuation and chemistry. Maybe if she was the last women on the earth and a meterorite was going to hit in 30 minutes id say "ok, doesnt matter anymore, for old times sake" but thats the extent of the emotional connection, it would be easy to have sex with her again, but thats also part of the reason that builds my self esteem back up that I can finally say no, because I want better than to get what she feels I deserve - enough to be firmly hooked back in again.

to therefore answer, in my opinion its not simply enough to have "a" connection, its about having a "good" connection. I was emotionally enmeshed plus infactuated, but that didnt make it great. in fact, the stronger the emotions the more chance of the sex ranging from good to horrible. The closer I get to radical acceptance, the more I realise that I shared my body with someone equally as much with my emotions, that I really shouldnt have if I had been an emotionally healthy person. Which I wasnt.

[truthbeknown]

Cromwell,

So very well said.  The being used, the emotional roller coaster ride with sex.   I was on the ride for two separate times and even now i realized that her (or borderlines) can cultivate an addiction to them but once we get addicted we can start to get resentful of them for being addicted to them.  Just my observations about myself and putting the pieces together.  WM and my story seem very similar and there are shades of similarity in most of the posts. 

I just remember in the beginning being intoxicated by her gratification of me.  But i didn't fall in love with the sex.  In fact the sex was very robotic on her part at times.  Like she was completing a mission or a transaction.  But like WM for me it was love, just loving being with her and if she derived some pleasure by controlling situations then for some reason i accepted that.  I have never had a relationship where i was so compassionate and understanding of why she was the way she was.  I have recently learned about Aspergers and i really believe she had some Aspie aspects to her.  In aspergers they don't process emotions the same way so it seems very unempathetic.  It doesn't mean they don't care (from reading blogs of Aspies) but they organize the world very different from Neuro Typicals.  So i believe that i loved her so much because part of me sensed that she was different but that difference became something that hurt me because she was unable to understand how Neuro Typicals (NT's) think.   I think it's easier when i look at her from a not typical neurology or brain pattern way and it sounds like most of us aren't judging them but we just wanted them to "feel" our love (i used to play the Billy Joel version of that song "feel my love" to her.)  Unfortunately, they just can't perceive love in the same way.  Sad but looking at borderline personality as similar to Autism spectrum helps me to handle that she is just lost in her own mind but not suffering.   The Aspie blogs that i have read don't consider themselves hurting for being different- they just know that they are and hope that someone loves them despite how difficult it can be to live with them.   My ex didn't like her neck kissed or to kiss lips to lips (it was all tongue kissing) which i learned is an Aspergers type of reaction.   So she was like a child in an adult body and that is why it's hard for me to be mad at her even with her messing around with the other guy.  I just don't want to see her until i'm healed.