busted for "cheating"... again trying to stay calm rather than confront

[yeeter]

He is an expert at arguing and knows if I write out my thoughts, they are balanced, logical and reasonable... .   and, therefore, difficult to argue with.

My wife is this.  She is crazy smart and highly skilled at debating and arguing.  I have found it works much, MUCH better if I dont play the game.

State my truth.  But leave it to her to do some work to meet me part way in communicating.  That is, I quit trying to do all the work in communicating in a way in which she will receive it (which was very specific - there were times where we broke out the dictionary to argue about the meaning of what was said... .   not the intended context, but the literal interpretation of a word used during an argument).  She can decide to try to actually hear what I am saying.  Or not.  But I deliver it in the best way I know how and if she misinterprets, skews, twists, etc... .   .I just say:  'thats not it'.  I might repeat the same thing over (using SET is great).

But I have to be ok with the concept that she just might not understand me.  If she asks for clarifying questions Im ok with that and will try to clarify.  But I no longer play the game of picking apart in detail, every little word or phrase that was used.

OMG! Just realized that I am afraid because I've built up this fear that I have to do things perfectly or he will get mad... .   but he's going to get mad by his own choice no matter what I do - he's proven that!

I think you are onto something here... .  

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[briefcase]

I spent about a year "clarifying" my boundaries to my wife, thinking that the last time I told her I wasn't specific or detailed enough, that I hadn't made the high stakes/consequences obvious enough to her.  I assumed (or maybe just wanted to believe) that because I wasn't clear enough she didn't get it and that's why she wasn't acting differently.  

I was operating under many mistaken assumptions, but the biggest one was assuming that what I said had the power to control my wife's actions/thoughts.  

I seemed to think that if I just clarified things the right way for her (again and again), she would "get it" and make some changes.  Flipped around, when my wife didn't make changes I wanted, I thought it was because I had not been clear enough about how important those changes were to me (so, my fault for being too vague).  

The truth is that I probably did avoid raising some issues with her and wasn't up front with her for a long time. I felt that I needed to say some things, so I had a clear conscience.  But, after I did that, I kept doing it over and over packaged in slightly different ways.  

So, if you can learn anything from my experience, it might be that there is only so much value in explaining your boundaries (you need a clear conscience that you tried), and then the harder work is in enforcing them.  Just make sure your repeated attempts to "hone" your message to him aren't just a way to delay enforcing boundaries by letting him feel the natural consequences of his actions.

Like Yeeter, I think you've probably been pretty clear already about these issues.  But, I do get your need to "make sure" you were clear with him. At some point, you will have some hard choices to make if he doesn't decide to do make some changes.       

[byasliver]

I can relate to both of your experiences. I think my issue is that in the past I said I wouldn't tolerate certain behaviors but never stated or enforced any consequences. He always acted as if my saying we need to spend some time separately meant we were ending the r/s entirely (not what I wanted then or now). And any hint of that was met with threats: to take our son, to leave me broke, etc. I honestly don't think he genuinely wants to end the relationship. I see now that it's his way of coping. He can't trust that I truly want a break in order to be able to focus on making both of us healthier. I'm mentally preparing myself for every reaction from horrible rage to begging and pleading. There were two other times during our marriage where I was clearly at a breaking point and it resulted in changes in his behavior (for the better) but that was temporary. I am even bracing myself for that so that I stand my ground and not give in. This time there has just been far too much deception uncovered.

Honing my message is about being clear within myself that I have said what I truly mean and feel without attacking or trying to "get something" out of him: i.e. an apology, explanation, etc. I am the kind of person who "wears her heart on her sleeve" and will put the thoughts/feelings of others before my own always. I am realizing that his feelings aren't rational any longer and nothing I do can help that. "Normal" people can be soothed by explanations, apologies, reason, etc. but not him. So I have to stop worrying about trying to affect him by what I say and just focus on saying what I feel is important to say and in the best way possible considering his current state.

You know, what I found wasn't anything hidden in a way that I haven't found stuff before. It makes me wonder if he either "wants" to get caught (cry for help - I've seen it before with mentally ill people) or if he has me painted so black that he is already "gone" and just doesn't care what I find. It's going to be interesting no matter what. He is money driven but if he wants to push a divorce he knows it's going to hurt him financially. He's not going to like that and he's the kind of person who will choose the path that is best financially rather than the path that is "right"... .   if that makes sense. He has tried almost every year to "fudge" on our taxes but I won't sign off on the returns unless I know everything is on the level.

I agree that SET is great and I've been rehearsing scenarios in my mind so that I can use SET correctly if he tries to act as if he doesn't understand. And I totally understand not raising some issues and not being totally up front. It's hard when you feel as if everything you say is misinterpreted and used against you somehow. But we have to keep in mind that our goal is about creating and maintaining healthier lives - not trying to get them to understand. Right?

[byasliver]

 :'( Pics were just posted from an outing they took this morning (uBPDh and son) and out of 50+ pics, there are 4-5 separate ones (not taken one right after another) where my son looks like he is about to cry or was crying! I know that look. His dad has been fussing at him over something trivial and when that happens it isn't a simple correction - it's a lecture often with yelling and belittling! My MIL is in some pics, too and the tension in her face is so clear! My heart is breaking! Now I WANT them home asap so I can wrap my arms around my son and give him some love and reassurance that he needs and deserves. Yes, all kids need discipline but that means you TEACH them how to correctly behave - not scare/belittle them into submission!

Going to go work on a project I've been doing for my son: organizing/redecorating his room. His bed is going to end up looking like the Optimus Prime 18 wheeler! I cannot wait to see his face!  It is that thought that is keeping me from completely falling apart right now!

[yeeter]

Hugs sliver


The hardest thing by far, is how these relationships affect the children.  That's going to be the case even if in a separate coparenting arrangement.  

The best thing you can do is keep yourself healthy and intact, to be there for your son when he returns



(ps.  Quit looking at online pictures and checking up)

[byasliver]

(ps.  Quit looking at online pictures and checking up)

But he's my baby boy! It was supposed to be fun pics of them at a museum. He's not calling and letting me talk to him like usual so I've just looked at the pics he posted on FB to see the fun my son is having... .   didn't expect the sad pics :-( I'm not calling there because we've never handled these family visits out of town that way. I know how easy it is for a small child to feel homesick so I've always let them call me rather than me calling at a time when they are tired or overstimulated and prone to feeling more needy than usual. uBPDh learned that the hard way. The first time he took our son alone, he called me one night when he was kinda tired and thought it would cheer him up. Nope, they spent the next couple of hours trying to calm him down because hearing my voice only upset him more because he wanted me THERE not just my voice.

I did get some GREAT news just now. Our accountant just called and the financial picture is not as bleak as I thought. He explained some things that had seemed really bad but I now know they aren't. He knows about the account that I didn't know about and is in agreement that those sorts of things should NOT be kept hidden from me. He is a very honest person and also a bit of a friend to both myself and uBPDh so his concern was beyond the financial. It was a huge relief to talk to him and he is going to carefully make sure I am kept informed from this point on. Neither of us is sure why uBPDh is making some of the financial decisions that he is but our accountant considers us not just clients as a couple but as individuals, too. So, even if uBPDh decides to split once I lay out my boundaries, our accountant will be looking out for the best interest of BOTH of us. The only way uBPDh could use an accountant to hide things or deceive me is to take our $ to another accountant... .   which he can't do without my signing papers (since it was all put in place while we were married, it's considered equally owned).

Now that takes the $ fears I had off the table... .   now I'm only left with the emotional side of it. He is still communicating with the ex f-buddy which is actually strengthening my resolve.

Thanks for all the support and advice, yeeter. Btw, I meant to mention earlier that your wife sounds kinda like my mom. I learned when I was 17 that arguing with her was pointless and I just walked out one night when she started. I think I can count on one hand the times she's tried to start an argument with me since. She "got it" just that quick that I wasn't going to play that game anymore. Now I just have to remember the lesson that I learned from that night and apply it to my current situation. Anyway, my point is that I feel for you. It's so hard when it's a spouse because their behavior eats away at the love you feel for them and the trust you have in them. This is a person you CHOSE to love and it seems they are CHOOSING to be hurtful in return. The reality is that they are so much more scared than we are... .   but it still hurts.

[rosannadanna]

Hi sliver ,

I'm jumping into thread kind of late, but I just wanted to convey a couple of things.

I have to disagree with yeeter about looking at the pics.  If you were trying to detach and you were obsessively looking at his facebook page that would be unproductive, but you are still married and share the childrearing repsonsibilities.  As a mother, I can relate to the feeling of unease it sounds like you have when your son is in the sole care of your husband.  Looking at the pictures sounds like it was just a normal thing that a wife would do when her husband is on a trip with their child and unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on how you look at it) you observed your son looking distressed.  Your guess as to why he looks that way is probably right b/c this is your child and you have daily exposure to his interactions with his father.  And btw, the interactions between your son and his father do sound concerning.  In fact it sounds like you are at a point in this relationship where you are realizing that alot of stuff about your husband is concerning to you.  IMO, you are realizing his belief system and the values on which he bases his decision-making are very different than yours.  I think your experience in that regard is a common one that men and women face in their marrieages/LTR's.  But the BPD is complicating it so that you are having to go about the process more carefully.  

I am very impressed with how you are handling your situation.  You seem very thoughtful, realistic, and planful.  You seem like a very strong woman and I am rooting for you.

[yeeter]

Thanks for the disagreement rosanna (one of the great things about this site is the checks and balance of multiple perspectives!)

To clarify a little on why I suggested to skip the pictures, is because it seemed to be causing sliver distress and was upsetting, over a situation she has no control over (and no context of what was really happening, although its likely her guesses were right).

So it seemed to me that putting herself through seeing her son in that state, at a time when she cant actually do anything about it, was counter productive.  

My advice was meant to try to help alleviate some of her own stress.

Thats all.  (although reading back it looked like I was implying she was obsessively checking up - not what I meant)

He is your baby, I do get that.  (and if a separation or divorce happens, this type of thing is going to be the norm)

I am very impressed with how you are handling your situation.  You seem very thoughtful, realistic, and planful.  You seem like a very strong woman and I am rooting for you.

     

[byasliver]

Just a note to clarify something about the pics: uBPDh isn't in any of the pictures because he is the one behind the camera. It's only pics of our son. I am a very devoted mom and miss my kids terribly when they are away from me. I'm not a helicopter mom but I'm probably as close as you can get while still having healthy boundaries  On a happy note, the pictures from yesterday had many more smiles and no sad faces! 

My three older children are from my first marriage so I know all about having to spend time apart but I have really incredible relationships with all of my kids. Even though the older ones are teens, they text/talk to me almost as much as they do their friends. I also have a really good relationship with their father and his wife. We made maintaining a friendship a priority when we divorced and we've done a great job. We still feel we are all family... .   just in a different way now.

I've done tons of thinking over the last week and you have all helped so much. I am searching earnestly for a local support group because this forum has taught me the value of peer support. Hope you are all doing well