busted for "cheating"... again trying to stay calm rather than confront

[byasliver]

just need to vent before i react... .   my husband has been caught in several lies concerning sex throughout our marriage. i have never outright caught him cheating but here is what i did catch:

-had a LARGE collection of porn prior to our marriage that he said he'd throw out before we wed - he didn't and i found his "stash", again he promised to toss it but never did

-went to visit some family (i do know he was there) and when he came home i found condoms in his pocket - he lied about where they came from but then said it was a "joke" his cousin made - never did understand that one

-he has been in communication with an old college f-buddy more than once - the first time i found he out swore to end contact and cc'd me on the email he sent to her stating as much - not long after he tried to contact her again - again, he swore he wouldn't do it again - well, i just found out that he tried to email her last night

i am ready to spit nails right now! i want to confront him but i know it won't do any good - right now i still have his email/social networking passwords and am just monitoring the situation - but i'm starting to think i really may need to look into getting some advice from a lawyer - really not how i want this to turn out  :'(

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[byasliver]

it's really taking every bit of resolve i have not to confront him about his - i'm really starting to think he is done with "us" but not ready to admit it

[Somewhere]

Take charge of your life.

It is done when you say so.

[byasliver]

I honestly think I'm To The Point Of TellinG Him When He Gets Back From Out Of Town  This Weekend That He Needs To Leave Until He Can Be Honest And FullY Commit To Making Our Marriage Work... .   Excuse All The Crazy Capitals... .   My Phone Seems To Be Going Crazy!

Only Reason I'm Not Going To The Undecided Or Leaving Boards Is Because They Seem So Negative. I Need To Stay At Least A Little Positive For Our Kids.

[Somewhere]

Understood.

I get in trouble around here for mixing the Stay/Dunno/Go boards, as well.

I am around for the kids, too.

[Rockylove]

I honestly think I'm To The Point Of TellinG Him When He Gets Back From Out Of Town  This Weekend That He Needs To Leave Until He Can Be Honest And FullY Commit To Making Our Marriage Work.

From the things you said you've caught him doing, I couldn't honestly say that I think there was physical infidelity, but more emotional infidelity and I know that hurts.   You've set your boundaries on this and he's crossed them over and again... .   I guess he figured there wasn't much consequence to his actions before and could get away with it again and again.  Kind of childish, but that's the nature of the disorder.   

Only Reason I'm Not Going To The Undecided Or Leaving Boards Is Because They Seem So Negative. I Need To Stay At Least A Little Positive For Our Kids.

I'm sorry this is happening to you.  It's unfortunate, but I don't know that you'll likely get the level of honesty and commitment you need from him~~or anyone who suffers from BPD.  I don't want to sound negative because that's not my intent... .   just being realistic.  I don't know your whole story or how long you two have been married, but it sounds as though your husband has a different sense of what honesty and commitment are than you do and he's reached his maximum level for both. 

It also sounds like you've reached your level of tolerance for his behavior.  I can see why you're angry with him~~lying always makes my blood pressure go up!  Just out of curiosity, have you ever told him what you would do if he didn't stop?  What was the consequence for crossing your boundary? 

I have a difficult time with this as I feel as though I'm playing an authoritarian role (mother/child).  I've been with my bf (now fiance) for 2 years and right from the beginning, his ex-wife (with whom he had a very tumultuous and dysfunctional relationship) was texting him and sending IM's which at times were very flirtatious (others were extremely nasty~she's very mentally disturbed).  It bothered the heck out of me and I told him it needed to stop.  I felt it was very disrespectful to our relationship.  He said he felt sorry for her and that she'd stop once we moved... .   but she didn't.  In retrospect, I should have established a boundary with a consequence.  He told me (when we first met) that he only "talks" to one woman at a time.  I could have said talk to her or talk to me.  I didn't like the fact that his ex was communicating with him and that he continued to respond, but I wasn't willing to give up the relationship because of it so there was no real consequence for the boundary.  I don't know if she still contacts him or not, but it doesn't seem to disrupt our relationship any and it doesn't bother me any more... .   I've bigger fish to fry.

[byasliver]

Thanks, Rockylove, but I told myself that lie for years. I'm wise enough now to know that he's hiding even more. We've done this dance many times - he knew I would find what I have... .   I'm sure there is more serious stuff hidden so I won't find it. I feel almost like he's taunting me or daring me to do something. This time, I'm calling his bluff. I'm working on a set of boundaries and will enforce them when he comes back from being out of town. I would honestly LOVE to do it with him several states away - but he has our youngest with him. So I'm going to do the wiser thing and use these next few days to write out my list of boundaries, rehearse presenting them to him and getting myself mentally and emotionally prepared for the fall out that is to come

Somewhere   praying we all get through this and on to better things!

[Vindi]

So I'm going to do the wiser thing and use these next few days to write out my list of boundaries, rehearse presenting them to him and getting myself mentally and emotionally prepared for the fall out that is to come

Somewhere   praying we all get through this and on to better things!

yes, to me cheating is cheating, whether physical or emotional... .   or both... .   if you do this (set firm boudaries) stick with them and see what happens, and emotionally preparing yourself for this is great, cuz it may take time b4 you find out if he changes anything. How long have you both been married?

[laidee]

byasilver -

I am in a similar situation. I confronted my H with questions on why he had certain things, but I didn't outright ask if he has cheated again. His response was confusing, I don't believe him, but pressing the matter without further proof will just cause more headache. I do believe he has had an emotional affair at the very least. So I truly understand 

Hang in there. I have a tendency to post cross-boards because some days i'm undecided and others I want things to work or I feel a particular topic is more appropriate for a certain board. Currently I'm just numb and waiting for the ball to drop because I know something isn't right.

Please try to stay positive. Our kids can pick up on our vibes.

[byasliver]

It's not so much that "cheating is cheating". It's that promises were made and broken repeatedly and there were lies to cover it up or to defend behavior. He established a pattern of dishonesty. Period. And that's so ironic because at one point in therapy he was asked for what he thought were the 3 most important requirements for a marriage. His answer? "Mutual trust, love, and respect."

Married 7+ years and the dishonesty concerning sexual issues has been present from the start. It has been the biggest bone of contention and when I can put my emotions aside, it seems like he's been testing me all along. I gave in far too many times. No more.

laidee, my kids are all out of town right now as well so I don't have that to worry about yet. As far as questioning him about what I know now, I realize there isn't a point. I know the truth. My goal is simply to convey my boundaries (again) and enforce them. So sorry you're feeling numb and waiting for the ball to drop... .   I completely relate! It's a horrible feeling!

I have been reading lots about how to determine your boundaries but can't seem to find much about HOW to present them. In writing? Face to face? With a "mediator" present? Would really appreciate some guidance.

[byasliver]

Ok, so I spent a lot of time last night and this morning working on my boundaries and trying to use the tools I've read about here: Value-Boundary-Action and Describe-Express-Assert-Reinforce. I wrote everything out but would like some input on it and also input about how to present this to my uBPDh. He isn't fond of my giving him written statements but has been okay with my reading aloud a written statement - which is what I prefer. Here is what I have so far:

1-Honesty and openness are important to maintain mutual trust in a relationship. Dishonesty and deception in any form hurt the trust in a relationship. For trust to be rebuilt, full disclosure is a must. Promises were made concerning honesty and openness at the beginning of our relationship and at times when there was a deviation from those original promises. I have learned that promises were broken again. I feel very confused and hurt. I said that I would not tolerate this happening again but I feel I wasn’t clear on what that meant. If you will consent to and carry out full disclosure, then we can remain in the same home and continue to work on repairing our relationship. If you will not consent to or do not carry out full disclosure, then I respectfully ask that you move out or I will leave. This may or may not be a permanent decision depending on how things are handled going forward.

2-Refraining from actions that devalue a person is necessary to maintain mutual respect in a relationship. Derogatory name calling, discounting another’s feelings/thoughts, and yelling are some indications of devaluing another person and should not be tolerated. There have been instances of these behaviors throughout our marriage but moreso recently. I feel badly that I was guilty of these behaviors and am hurt by your engaging in these behaviors with me and with the kids. I will not tolerate this behavior from either of us any longer. If such behavior is exhibited then the other person should call for a “break” and the time should be used by all parties to calm down and reflect on a better course of action. If the person is not willing to temporarily halt the behavior, the other should remove themselves (and/or the child) from the situation even if that means leaving the house temporarily or permanently.

3-Mutual and healthy love relationships require continued positive interaction. Avoiding contact and isolating oneself prohibits healthy and positive bonding and communication. Staying in a room, only coming out for necessities and communication primarily only during those brief moments is isolating behavior. I understand that trying to spend time together will be tense and difficult but it is necessary if we wish to make this marriage work. We can start with small steps like sitting together to talk, watch a short tv show, eat a meal, etc. and build up to longer and more meaningful encounters. This needs to be a daily event. If this is too difficult for us to do now or if we find it too difficult in the future, then we need to live separately until we can make progress on this or until we make a permanent decision to separate.

[briefcase]

Hmmm.  Your list seems like good thoughts for you to have as you work on sorting out your personal values and boundaries.  These are all important issues.  As a communication to him, I see some potential problems.

Your boundaries are about you.  Your values.  What you can and cannot accept in your life.  Your list does a pretty good job of laying this out.  

Boundaries aren't really about, or for, your partner - his agreement is not necessary.  Your boundaries are not "rules" for him to accept or agree to.  The way you have your list phrased, you are asking him to "buy into" this.  This is unlikely to occur, or if he does it will be based on his fear of losing you and not really a desire to change (at least at first).  

Also, when he is dysregulated, he probably is incapable of doing some of the things you want him to agree to:

If such behavior is exhibited then the other person should call for a “break” and the time should be used by all parties to calm down and reflect on a better course of action. If the person is not willing to temporarily halt the behavior, the other should remove themselves (and/or the child) from the situation even if that means leaving the house temporarily or permanently.

If he could manage his emotions like this, you probably wouldn't be where you are.  

Finally, you are tackling too many issue at once.  The big deal right now is the trust/fidelity issue.  I would stick with that issue and leave the other stuff for another time (but make sure you do get back to them later!).

If you do decide to communicate your boundaries to him, then you should use SET, not DEARMAN.  The "Truth" being an expression of your limits and values.  For example, something like this:

Support:  I love you and care about our marriage and family.  I'm concerned about an issue and want to talk to you about it before it becomes a bigger problem for our family.

Empathy:  I'm sure it feels good to have an old college flame still take an interest in you.  It must be quite tempting to stay in contact with her and have some level of connection with her, try to be friends, etc.    

Truth:  :)espite your promises to me in the past, I know you are still in contact with her.  I can't be in a relationship with someone who lies to me or has secretive relationships with other women.  This type of behavior is simply not something that I can accept. If it continues I will have no choice but remove myself from this situation.  

Communicating this boundary may be the easy part.  The hard part is following through if he violates it again.  Then you have to wrestle with yourself and makes some hard choices.  I know.  I did.  My wife secretly communicated with an old flame for nearly two years, lying and breaking many promises along the way.  I feel for you, this is tough stuff to deal with.  

Stay strong.

[byasliver]

Thank you, briefcase. Your insight and example are very helpful. Two concerns of mine, though: First, the incidents with the old flame have taken place just over the last 6 months and we are up to three times of breaking the promise. I honestly do not feel able to trust him unless he is willing to "come clean" and be essentially an open book from this point on. Second, we have children which I do not feel should be left in his primary care. Due to work, he has been away from the home and the kids for most of our marriage. "Removing myself from the situation" implies that I would be willing to leave the home and possibly the kids or taking the kids with me. But to say, "I will be forced to remove you from the situation" sounds a lot more threatening.

Oh, and as for the boundaries not being "rules for him to follow", do you mean I need to reword it so that it gives the action I will take rather than the action HE should take?

Again, thank you for your input. It really is helping me sort all of this out. I would like to be doing this in a more direct manner (like with my therapist) but I can't get an appointment until after uBPDh returns from his trip this weekend. However, I feel I'm at a breaking point where this needs to be dealt with ASAP. The stress is simply more than I can continue to deal with for an undetermined amount of time. I have to feel we are moving in a more positive direction or I have to have peace in my home. There is no other choice at this point.

[byasliver]

I should also add that the distrust isn't just about the continued communication with his old flame. It's also about some serious money issues: a large debt he is hiding and a large sum of money that he is hiding. I have proof of both so if he pushes this towards legal actions, he would have a hard time defending his actions.

Also, what do I do if he wants me to tell him what I have uncovered as far as his dishonesty? I am uncomfortable telling him everything I know because I know it will just make him become more deceptive and sneaky.

[yeeter]

Great work Sliver, to be able to pause and think this through.  And calibrating with the group for ideas before confronting.    

Briefcase gives great insight.  I agree that its too long a list of items, and you should focus on just one (after all, if you cant get through the one issue then the others dont really matter).

The issue of infidelity is worthy.  And pressing.  And it does sound like you have more than enough reason to distrust.

Reword the boundaries to focus on your own actions and not his - those are what you can control.  He will choose what his own actions will be, but spelling out the consequences (ie what you will do) is appropriate.  Its not a threat, its just sharing the reality of what you will or will not do when faced with certain relationship dynamics.

You DO seem to be at a breaking point.  Be sure to give yourself some self care - connect with friends or family and get sleep/proper food and exercise.

"There is no other choice at this point"

That is a powerful tool and state of mind, which will get you through this.  At the same time you are being smart about it and ensuring your children are cared for.  

[yeeter]

Also, what do I do if he wants me to tell him what I have uncovered as far as his dishonesty? I am uncomfortable telling him everything I know because I know it will just make him become more deceptive and sneaky.

You only need one item to highlight the issue.  Then he will have to decide his own actions, and you will know based on your other info whether he is genuine or not.  So I wouldnt disclose what you do or do not know.

Have you thought it all the way through on what you will do if he doesnt make real/genuine change?

[byasliver]

You guys are really helping me sort this out. You are right: I need to focus on one issue at a time but I need to determine which is most crucial to me right now. I'm also not sure that even with change, I can be comfortable remaining in the same house right now. I put the boundary in place before: honesty or else. The consequence was supposed to be us separating temporarily at least. The thing that is holding me back is fear that enforcing it will bring about the ultimate end of our relationship. But what relationship do I really have at this point?

Lots to digest and mull over.

[yeeter]

The thing that is holding me back is fear that enforcing it will bring about the ultimate end of our relationship.

Oh boy, the members here can write volumes on this issue.  Its our own to grapple with.

But you already have the answer:

But what relationship do I really have at this point?

An imbalanced one.  An unhealthy one.  Unfair.  Etc etc.

The crossroad you are facing is the decision to go forward in a HEALTHY relationship or none at all.  Vs the old decisions of remaining in an unhealthy relationship, without honoring your own needs and wants (some of these are serious, imo).  You currently have significant debt that you are at least partly responsible for - thats a big deal, and would require some significant changes on my partners part before I would be able to trust again.

And if he is genuine in his intention, he will not mind making changes so that you are PROTECTED - in whatever ways (STD tests for the infidelity, a wait time before picking up sex again, a period of separation with recovery counseling, debt counseling/planning for the financial burden you now face).  

Consider DEARMAN for your first most important issue.  Try it out and see what the response is, as measured by ACTION on his part.  In the meantime you need to consider how you will protect your own well being going forward.

[briefcase]

Use DEARMAN for something you need from him - for example, your need for full disclosure, etc. 

SET is what we use to speak our truth without necessarily asking for something.

[byasliver]

For clarification: can I or should I use SET to explain the truth of our situation as I see it then DEAR to outline my needs? Or just DEAR at this point? Because there are things he has asked of me which he feels I have not complied on (long story but is basically projection on his part without any real truth) I feel I should make it clear that I have taken steps which should leave no doubt about MY compliance and my willingness and desire to see a positive outcome. Or am I just talking to wall, so to speak, by stating all of that to him? I know he was dysregulated before he left but he might not be now.

<side note> One thing he promised to do before going out of town was to move a large, heavy couch we have from upstairs to downstairs. He never did it and blamed me for why he didn't do it. Well, my daughter and I moved it today by ourselves! I was terrified because several weeks ago, while moving another piece of furniture with H, I severely injured my foot. I was so afraid of making a wrong move and my daughter being injured today but we did it without an issues at all! So proud of us and it feels really good!

[briefcase]

DEAR is best when you are asking for something that you need from him.  SET is a way to gently speak some truth that you need to say.  We have some good workshops on these communication skills in our Lessons.

[byasliver]

I've been reading them... .   A LOT!  and they are extremely helpful! Honestly, it's kinda starting to blur a bit in my mind but I'm trying to keep plugging away at this. Here is what I have now:

Honesty and openness are important to maintain mutual trust in a relationship. Dishonesty and deception in any form hurt the trust in a relationship. For trust to be rebuilt, full disclosure is a must. Promises were made concerning honesty and openness at the beginning of our relationship and at times when there was a deviation from those promises. I acknowledge that things have been asked of me that I did not take clear action on. I can understand how this would make you feel unsure of trusting me. I am now set up with a personal therapist and am involved with a couple of support groups. I have also worked very hard at reorganizing our home since I stopped teaching preschool in our home.

However, I have learned that promises you made to me were broken again. I feel very confused and hurt. I said that I would not tolerate this happening again but I feel I wasn’t clear on what that meant. For us to remain living in the same house, I need the following: full disclosure from you on any matter I ask about with the exception of discussions between yourself and your therapists/counselors (aside from confirming your attending counseling/therapy), appropriate action to correct those things which you have not been honest about and affect our financial status and ability to move forward in our relationship, and verifiable actions taken to continue your therapy and/or counseling. If these needs cannot be met now or in the future, then I will be forced to change our living arrangements either temporarily or permanently.

[laidee]

I love your write-up! It is so clearly written. Straight forward but not harsh. Done with tact. Great job

[yeeter]

Nice work!   

What does this mean:

"I said that I would not tolerate this happening again but I feel I wasn’t clear on what that meant."

[byasliver]

Nice work!   

What does this mean:

"I said that I would not tolerate this happening again but I feel I wasn’t clear on what that meant."

I told him I would not tolerate dishonesty again but never laid out consequences.

He is due to return home late Saturday night or early Sunday morning. Knowing him, he will most likely sleep most of the day on Sunday. Monday, after I take the kids to school, I plan to sit down and address this with him. I can completely understand that he may want or need time to think and I am willing to give him 24 hours. I just found out that he has an appointment scheduled at the vet center that afternoon. I'm hoping that will be beneficial to him after our talk. I feel anxious about the whole thing but also a bit relieved: things will finally take a step towards something more healthy and positive for myself and the kids. Even if it's stings a bit initially.

You guys are awesome and I really appreciate all your help! 

[yeeter]

Nice work!   

What does this mean:

"I said that I would not tolerate this happening again but I feel I wasn’t clear on what that meant."

I told him I would not tolerate dishonesty again but never laid out consequences.

Seems to me, just saying you wont tolerate it was enough.  I might tweak this a bit because the way it reads now you are letting him off the hook, and maybe taking too much ownership (just because you didnt spell out the specific consequences, doesnt mean you werent serious on following through).

Maybe just leave out the portion in bold, so it reads:

"I said that I would not tolerate this happening again"

Your plan of having a time to discuss it, with an activity afterwards is a good one.

Good luck!   

[byasliver]

If just saying I wouldn't tolerate something was enough, he wouldn't have continued to repeat the behaviors. No, I should have been more clear and I intend to do just that from now on.

Now, my fears have moved on to our son. He has threatened in the past to take him with him if he leaves. I know the wise thing to do would be to get a lawyer before I even talk to uBPDh but that just isn't possible. I would have to use the money from our joint account (not enough in my own) and he would know immediately. That would really set him off! I just have to hope that he won't carry out that threat or that, if he does, I can get a court to intervene quickly.

[yeeter]

If just saying I wouldn't tolerate something was enough, he wouldn't have continued to repeat the behaviors.

Thats not what I meant.  Simply saying something, whether generalized or specific, in no way can 'make' him do or not do anything.

I was simply suggesting that a generalized statement of YOUR actions (in response to something he may or may not do in the relationship), is adequate communication.  You dont have to spell out any specific action.  Just my opinion.  Because it seems that it is at least to some degree letting him off the hook and almost like 'giving him another chance' - that you werent specific enough so you feel compelled to go another round while being more specific.  From my view, you shouldnt need to be that specific is all.

He may very well still do whatever he is going to do.  Thats true no matter how you communicate it.

As for the fear with your son.  Go consult a lawyer.  The initial consultation is free.  The lawyer can ground you on what is likely to happen in terms of custody if you split.  In general, women fare far better than men in coparenting arrangements (but yes, you are likely going to have to 'share' custody)

[byasliver]

I see what you are saying now, yeeter. I may reword that... .   maybe not. He hates it when I write things down. He will let me read it outloud but I think that's barely tolerated. He is an expert at arguing and knows if I write out my thoughts, they are balanced, logical and reasonable... .   and, therefore, difficult to argue with. So, I'm trying to memorize what I wrote out but then practice saying it so it doesn't sound rehearsed.

Wow, that sounds crazy even to me but I know it is how I need to handle him and I need to get used to using SET automatically so it's easier in the future.

Today, I'm starting to feel anxious again. He will be home sometime Saturday or Sunday. I know I have to accept that our r/s may be ending but it really isn't what I want. We had 6+ years of a pretty good r/s. Yes, looking back there were very minor symptoms of BPD but nothing that big. Things turned really ugly over the last year. I still love him dearly, want him to get help, but fear he is already halfway out the door and/or that my setting boundaries will push him completely away. I just have to keep reminding myself that it's either do this or lose myself.

I'm just so afraid of him raging or taking our son. I think I will call some atty's and see if I can get an consult in over the next 2 days. It didn't dawn on me until I read your post that of course they would do an initial consult for free! I was looking at it from the perspective of "I need an atty" rather than "an atty wants my business". Ugh! And THIS is what I'm looking forward to getting away from - being so enmeshed in this codependent, irrational, fearful mindset!

yeeter, I have been reading lots on the boards but don't remember coming across your story. You doing okay? You've been so kind and helpful to me - you, laidee, sadbutwiser and briefcase. Really appreciate you guys! Hope you are all doing okay   <---love that emoticon! I'm a hugger!

[byasliver]

OMG! Just realized that I am afraid because I've built up this fear that I have to do things perfectly or he will get mad... .   but he's going to get mad by his own choice no matter what I do - he's proven that! Yes, I can take steps to minimize his rage or attempt to minimize it but, really, I can only make sure I'm doing what I feel is right.

Wow, wow, wow! And, I'm not going to bother with a mad rush to try to get in an appt with an atty. If he intends to attempt to take our son, there really isn't anything I can do to stop him. There is plenty of evidence of his instability right now and probably even more evidence of my parenting skills (I was a preschool teacher for the past two years and VERY good at it - everyone one of those parents saw the change in my uBPDh and would sing my praises to no end). He may "win" temporarily but the truth will prevail. I was just telling that to someone else on another board... .   but wasn't remembering it myself 

Off to enjoy my last days in this quiet house before the ___ hits the fan.