Where do you put the guilt?

[AbbyNormal]

I'm wondering what others have as guilt triggers. Do you have something that you know isn't true or healthy but it still influences your responses to your BPD loved one? Do you have any specific coping skills for the guilt?

My issue is, I'm alone in dealing with my uBPD mother. My family consisted of me, my mom and my grandma. My grandma knew there was something wrong with my mom but she never knew what it was. She passed on back in '96 and before she died she asked me to take care of my mom. I agreed. That was during a time when I was a very young adult, I was very emotionally immature, and I still thought that if I tried hard enough I could please my mom.

This has been a heavy burden. For years, when asked why I didn't go NC, I would say because I made this promise. Now, I understand what BPD is and I have some (I underscore some) empathy regarding her condition. I struggle with something I've seen on this site a lot: do I love her? I don't know. Sense of obligation, guilt, wanting to honor that promise, and the empathy I have for the condition may be all that really motivates me.

[Clearmind]

We experience guilt when we feel we have gone against/thinking of going against our moral code – interestingly that moral code is usually a faulty belief collected from our past – its validity, for us now, needs re-examining. Determine if it fits.

So the question is – why is not OK for you to investigate the reasons you are wavering?

As kids, we were likely “required” to not have needs because our parent took up all the air space. As adults, we need to process the obligation to fix our BPDparent at the expense of our own happiness.

First step here Abby is to maybe examine what you want for your life first and foremost without thinking about your mum and her needs. You are accustomed to putting her needs first.

What do you fear? That your mum cannot cope without you? That she is helpless and needs you for survival? How old is she?

Workshop - US: What it means to be in the “FOG”

[hopesprings]

Abby,

Guilt. I have a lot of that.  Just this week, my mother called and announced she was having a birthday party for my 8 year old son, the next day.  She had a new recipe, she was inviting my godmother who I adore. One glaring problem, since she was giving me less than 24 hours notice, we weren't available to go to the party.  I felt guilty.  Here she was trying to do something nice and we weren't able to go to her party. If only I could rearrange our schedule, I could make her happy and she could have her party and be the doting grandmother. Instead, I rejected her invitation.

My husband who has seen this pattern for over twenty years said that my mother never intended to have a party for our son. Wouldn't the normal thing be to ask when we were available and then plan a date? We have three kids and we are insanely busy and she knows that.  Turns out she never told my godmother about the party. How about when I invited her to come down to our house and celebrate with us this weekend?  No, she isn't available.  Last year, I tried three different dates over the course of a month so that she might come to my older son's birthday.  None of those worked for her.  She hasn't been to one of my children's birthdays in years and she doesn't feel guilty at all.  Her commitments are always too important. It is funny because it isn't like my children's birthdays change from year to year.  She knows what days they are. It hurts me, but luckily my children don't know any different.

So why do I feel guilty? I guess to incorporate Clearmind's observation, my moral code is that I am supposed to love and respect my mother.  Turning her down or distancing myself from her doesn't feel loving or respectful.  My head knows what is healthy for me, but my heart is aching for something that isn't there.  My best coping mechanism right now is to pretend she isn't my mother.  I just pretend she is a friend, not a best friend, but more than an acquaintance.  It helps me keep my composure and not get too hooked into all the family dynamics that hurt.

I hope some other people will write about their experiences.  I wish you strength dealing with your mom and I admire your compassion.

[XL]

I feel guilty I haven't cut her off. It sounds counter-intuitive, but there is a benefit to me.

She's a gate keeper to a bigger family. She's a gatekeeper to my immediate family. She does "give" (let's say funnel from my dad) cash sometimes. She's occasionally there in a crisis, though the quality of that support is questionable.

If it were her and I alone in this world, I would have walked after her incredibly abusive behavior when I was 17. I tried my damnedest, but I couldn't shake her (i.e., she was obsessively stalking me, and it become pitiful). So I do feel guilty pretending to love her. I consider myself an annoyed watch guard, and any cordial behavior is a favor to others, not her.

I guess I feel guilty that she claims to love me, and I verbally reciprocate, but I just don't see it that way. It's a tool I use to smooth over her chaos and keep things slightly more stable. I believe she loves the concept of me as a small child, and the teen and adult versions of myself were her annoyance. I don't exist to her as a middle aged adult with adult interests and problems; she's hung up on me as a 2 year old. I don't need her, but she needs me.

I mostly consider it a massive act of kindness that I interact with her at all.

It's really taken me a lot of time to step back and realize how tangled everything is. "Why didn't you walk away?" is really hard to answer when you were so turned around that you didn't know you were allowed to, nor have the tools to do so. Partners are old enough to leave, but kids are captive witnesses to disordered behavior, and we grow in weird ways around it. I do feel sorry for myself, because I don't think anyone realizes how mean she was when it was her and I alone. I don't even think she is mentally capable of remembering those years.

You don't put the guilt anywhere; you thank yourself for being a saint and putting up with this garbage your whole life.  

[isshebpd]

XL, I'm feeling the same way about my uBPDmom.

While she's not a gatekeeper to a lot of people (thanks to her acidic personality), when my sister and her children are in town they tend to visit our parents. So I go visit so I can see how the kids have grown.

I get money funnelled from my Dad too. His business is successful and he has given money to all his children, but mostly to my narcissistic brother who knows how to milk them for all they are worth   I take the money I get with no guilt, and put in savings for our retirement. We are self-sufficient with our jobs and I'd hate to be dependent on the nasty woman who is my uBPDmom.

I kind of like the fact that she still thinks we might give her grandchildren. Now I look forward to disappointing her. 

[Ember]

Other people protect me and remind me that my view on life can be pretty skewed.

Example:This week I was talking about getting back in contact with my parents mostly for other family members.  My husband asked, "Are you willing to sacrifice your mental health?" I think he meant it as a rhetorical question, but I treated it seriously and answered "yes, absolutely."  "Well, it isn't acceptable to me," was his response. 

It was good to hear someone say that I my needs and well being were more important then everyone else's.

[AbbyNormal]

Hi everybody! Thanks for the replies.

Clearmind, I really liked the FOG information. It was really informative and captures completely what I'm referring to here. My mom just turned 70yo.

Fear: That sometime she will honestly need me and BPD will keep her from reaching out. She wraps a lot of her identity up in being abandoned. Sometimes I think she resents me for sticking around when everyone else (she's been married 6 times and had countless "best" friends) has left.

I'm also afraid to be around her because she is a witch. (I mean that as a clinical term.  ) If I was face to face with her on any regular basis, I can confidently say it wouldn't be long before she resorted to physical abuse again. Sometimes I still feel afraid when she rages and I have to remind myself that she can't hurt me.

Obligation: I feel obligated because of the promise I made. It gave my grandma peace of mind to know that her very troubled daughter would always have someone who cared. I also feel obligated because she's my mom and because I am her only family. When a new man would come along, I was always persona non grata. I reveled in those times because neglect was so much more comfortable than the alternative. I've fantasized that if I had a sibling or she had a spouse that there would be sharing of the load. Of course, I see on this board that more family doesn't equate to help managing a BPD relationship.

Guilt: I feel like if I went NC, I would feel guilty that she was completely alone. She has pushed every single person out of life. I don't think the dog would stay if he had a choice.

Also, after I set the boundary, I feel guilty when I enforce it. If I say, I'm going to take this time for myself, then I feel some guilt when I take said time. And, if she's trying to violate the boundary, sometimes I also feel scared. When I first moved away---like, to other side of the country--I had nightmares for the first couple of years that she was going to "get" me. This has resolved through the years but sometimes the fear still bubbles up. I was just asking about that on another post and I got some good advice from NotTheMama about giving myself permission to just feel the emotion for what it is.

HopeSprings, your husband is right. She was doing that at the last minute so you would have no choice but to "reject" her. You were just part of a self-fulfilling prophecy of hers. I know it's hurtful. I have three kids and I feel so sad that I don't have a family behind me to share with them. I'm here if you need to vent. 

XL and issheBPD, I like this form of dialog because I like to see responses like yours. It's so different from my natural reaction and sometimes it is immensely helpful to see something through a different lens.

Ember, I'm glad you have someone like that on your side. I have my husband and my best friend who do the same thing. I know decisions regarding her are ultimately mine but it's nice to have that objective input.

[Ember]

If we feel guilty about  violating our moral code, then we need to change our moral code.  This is possible.  For example, at one time it was never acceptable for a woman to leave her husband.  Now we recognize the courage of women who leave an abusive spouse.

So here is my thing, imagine a woman who has lived with an abusive husband for 20 years.  He used to beat her with his belt and hit her, but never so bad she was hospitalized.  He has always been controlling and kept her isolated from other people, but she has learned to have friendships at work by keeping it secret from him.  As long as they lived together he took all the money she earned on the justification that he is providing a home even trying to prevent her from going to college.  Although less physical as he got older, his emotional and verbal abuse towards her got worse.   He blames her for everything that goes wrong.  If she shows any signs of happiness he does whatever he can to ruin it.  He is getting older and uses his health to make more demands on her.  He tells lies about her to family, neighbours and fellow church member as a way of keeping her in line.  


Now imagine the wife finally sums up the courage and moves out on her own to a different town.  Now, she is coming to you for advice because she feels guilty.  Her husband still loves her, shouldn't she still love him?  He wants to come and stay at her house for Christmas holidays, what should she say?  He's upset that she didn't send him a gift for their anniversary.  Now his health is failing, isn't it her duty to go and take care of him?  He admits to hitting her, but only as much as she deserved.  Besides, he says it wasn't abuse if there are no scars.  He asks, if it was that bad why did she stay with him so long?  People at church say she should forgive him.  He's offered to send her money if this will make her happy.  This is hard on the kids.  They know how bad he is, but their lives would be a lot easier if she would just go back to her role as wife.  Also, he promises to change.  But she admits it makes her angry that he keeps asking her what he did wrong.


I was never an abused wife, but everything I've written describes my relationship with my mother.    

Our social moral code has changed.  No one expects an abused wife to give back a lifetime of love and loyalty to her husband.  So why is it that people are enraged when abused children grow up and don't want to stay involved in their parents' lives?  I have people who say 'it couldn't have been that bad, you've turned out all right."  Can you imagine saying that to an abused woman? An abusive relationship doesn't become a healthy relationship just because a child grows up.  An abused women is most likely to be killed when she leaves her abuser.  And when the child chooses to no longer be a victim, all hell breaks lose. Parents losing control of their formally submissive adult children are at their scariest and most damaging.

So, when I feel guilty or face judgement from others I try to apply the same social values to my story as I would to an abused woman.  

[Clearmind]

Ember, oh yes its absolutely possible to change our moral code and thanks for chiming in – childhood conditioning has dictated our moral code – until now – we are wiser now – and we can dictate what our own moral codes are going to be. We can still respect our parents despite not wanting to live by the moral code they instilled in us as kids.

The difference being is that moral code as kids = faulty belief as adults.

We are now adults with adult privileges.

@Abby – I like that article too. FOG creates enmeshment/co-dependency – its this enmeshment that creates the guilt – we have not separated our own thoughts from our parents. This is something we need to work through – otherwise guilt/regret and all those other self-defeating emotions will take over our lives.

My mom just turned 70yo.

My father is also 70 this year – more than capable to look after themselves.

Fear: That sometime she will honestly need me and BPD will keep her from reaching out. She wraps a lot of her identity up in being abandoned. Sometimes I think she resents me for sticking around when everyone else (she's been married 6 times and had countless "best" friends) has left.

She loathes herself and she will test your commitment – hence the push/pull.

Borderlines really want you to believe they are helpless – in fact they are probably the most resourceful folks I know! Don’t believe the victimhood – this is the beginnings of the Karpman Triangle and we then play the role of rescuer – only to be made to be the persecutor when things go south.

We need to step out the triangle before it gets all twisted. Ever wondered why our rescuing behavior does not cause the drama to dissipate? Here is why:

Conflict dynamics / Karpman Triangle

Fear of a fall out can be managed my friend – this is where our coping skills come in.

A carry over from childhood is our need to be useful – be available when it all hits the fan! Nope! This is a faulty belief.

Try reframing the “I should be available for my mother whenever she needs me” to “I cannot always be there for my mother and that is OK – my mother is resourceful and I have things going on in my life too that is important to me”.

It’s our childhood conditioning that is “requiring” us to be available.

What can we do to move out of the rescuing role? By ensuring we are also not contributing to the pattern.

Does she call 4 times a day and you pick up every time? Don’t.

Do you always answer the call rather than call back when it suits you? Don’t.

Do you always jump when she says how high? Don’t.

Do you neglect your own life at the expense of fixing her?  :)on’t.

This is normal Abby – you are not her keeper – anything less and we are in fact enabling and contributing to the dysfunction.

I'm also afraid to be around her because she is a witch. (I mean that as a clinical term.  ) If I was face to face with her on any regular basis, I can confidently say it wouldn't be long before she resorted to physical abuse again. Sometimes I still feel afraid when she rages and I have to remind myself that she can't hurt me.

No she can’t hurt you Abby – I’m sure you are more than capable to look after you – if this happens on the phone: hang up! If this happens in person: Leave!

No one should be the subject of abuse – staying in her presence and allowing her to abuse you is giving her the permission that is OK. It’s not OK!

Obligation: I feel obligated because of the promise I made. It gave my grandma peace of mind to know that her very troubled daughter would always have someone who cared. I also feel obligated because she's my mom and because I am her only family. When a new man would come along, I was always persona non grata. I reveled in those times because neglect was so much more comfortable than the alternative. I've fantasized that if I had a sibling or she had a spouse that there would be sharing of the load. Of course, I see on this board that more family doesn't equate to help managing a BPD relationship.

Abby, a bit of truth here – if your Mom is BPD your Grandma was likely an enabler/enmeshed with her – she is now requiring you to enable just like she did – Did it help your Grandma? Who said your Grandma is right?

You are the only person in her life – because you are the only person in her life! Does that make sense? Step back my friend – she needs to battle on her own for a while.

Guilt: I feel like if I went NC, I would feel guilty that she was completely alone. She has pushed every single person out of life. I don't think the dog would stay if he had a choice.

OK, I think I see where some of your guilt is also coming from. You believe NC is the only way. NC is the all or nothing approach - It’s only the last resort. Contact is not helping you so we go down the middle for Controlled Contact.

Controlled contact is way more affective – at helping her and you! It’s a way for us to move towards a state of emotional ambivalence- creates more of a balance. Spend too much time with a BPD and you start to think like them.

Controlled contact is contact with very firm boundaries – similar to ones I listed above about not answering to her every beck and call. Yes she may get upset – Yes she may scream – instigate your boundary of not permitting her to scream at you and remove yourself immediately.

Also, after I set the boundary, I feel guilty when I enforce it. If I say, I'm going to take this time for myself, then I feel some guilt when I take said time. And, if she's trying to violate the boundary, sometimes I also feel scared. When I first moved away---like, to other side of the country--I had nightmares for the first couple of years that she was going to "get" me. This has resolved through the years but sometimes the fear still bubbles up. I was just asking about that on another post and I got some good advice from NotTheMama about giving myself permission to just feel the emotion for what it is.

Yes because you are not accustomed to looking out for you! Exercise some kindness and compassion for you! Hug yourself Abby – that little girl in you needs a really big hug and also needs some nurturing. Allow yourself the space to do that and yes permit yourself to feel.

Sometimes we need to be needed - it gives us worth - you are worthy in your right - your Mom does not define you!

If it feels risky to set a boundary – all the more reason to do it. Learn to protect yourself.

Practice! Practice! Practice!

Be kind to you.

[hopesprings]

I'm going to read, and re-read this thread a lot.  So much good information. The analogy of an abused woman was really helpful. A saving grace in my life was that I attended a parochial school as a child where I felt safe, loved and good.  The flip side of that is that some of the moral code I learned needs to be reworked as it relates to my mother. Sometimes it is hard for me to see the patterns, which is why it is so helpful to read the posts here.

I think I'm going to repeat Clearmind's comment about borderlines wanting you to believe they are helpless, but they really are quite resourceful at least 20 times a day.

[AbbyNormal]

Ember, that is a really thought provoking analogy. Why aren't abused children supported more when they try to move on and rebuild? You're absolutely right. And, I've noticed that there are posts from all over the world on this forum so it seems to be a widespread problem.

Hopesprings, it's hard to see our loved ones for what they are, isn't it? It seems my first instinct is to blame myself a lot of the time when that's the way she actually manufactured the entire situation. I'm glad you have a family of your own to support you and I'm glad you have this board too.

Clearmind, thanks again for your reply here. I appreciate the time you took in your reply and I've given it a lot of thought and research since my last post. You're right about my grandma. She was a doormat for my mom. My mom threw tantrums and my grandma gave in over and over. I have set boundaries in my communication with her. I've told her not to contact me during my work hours. If she calls, I don't answer. She mostly respects that but when I do return her call, she has her laundry list of demands. She loves to write long emails in the wee hours of the morning. Then, when I call, she wants to discuss all the crap on her email. I've told her I don't mind helping here and there, but I can't do everything. But, as with all BPDs, give them and inch and they'll take a mile. So, I have to keep reiterating the boundaries over and over and it's exhausting!

I've told myself she will never be satisfied with my contributions, so to just make peace with that. She insists I do nothing for her and will sometimes ask, pointblank, what I've done for her. If I reply, she says I'm holding it over her head. If I don't reply, she takes that as an admittance of guilt on my part. Usually I tell her that I'm not going to engage. If she continues I get off the phone and say we'll try again later. But, here's my problem, after I get off the phone I feel okay for sticking to my guns but after a while the anxiety and doubt creep into my thoughts. I try to logically talk myself out of them, but sometimes I end up in a full blown anxiety attack. I'm afraid about the rage episode I know I'll hear when I do talk with her again. When she does rage, I get off the phone again but the words stick--and they still hurt even if I logically know they're the rantings of a mad person.

I tried to call yesterday for Easter. She was alone, of course. I tried SET for that ole poor me story. Then, she told me about how her neighbors were going on a Disney cruise with members of their extended family. I told her that was nice and I hoped they had a really nice time. She hated that. Then, my infant son started crying so I took that as my cue to get off the phone. She then started raging that my son cries because he hates me. And, if my son had some time with Granny, they'd have an "understanding" about how awful life is with me. That's when I abruptly got off the phone with a simple I need to go, goodbye. She often tells me she resents that I am the "gatekeeper" of my family.

In the meantime, more boundaries go up on my end. I haven't visited her in three years. My last visit is a whole 'nother post.

Thanks again for the replies.

[Babysteps]

I just started college away from home, so I have a lot of guilt.  Part of the guilt involves leaving my little sister to dealing with my uBPD mom. This guilt is what destroys me the most. I have the image of my little sister having a panic attack because of my mom burned in my mind. She's suppose to be my little sister, you know? She's not suppose to be this big mature person who understands things. She's suppose to be spoiled and naive.

The guilt with my mom is something completely different. My mom truly got bad in the past year, when she and my dad got a divorce. I never realized how bad my mom truly was until it increased in the past year. Now I am realizing those little things that I had always thought was "my fault" or "normal" for families. I was already a teen counselor/peer adviser for teenagers with a wide range of problems before this, so I am use to handling people who I know I cannot fully helped. But, to a degree, it still gets to me because she is my mother.

Yes, there were numerous of times where she couldn't help me, but she is still family and it is a mental illness that can be out of her control. It does not make her actions right though, nor does it make it my fault. But still, she is my mother. I see her as someone who is damaged. I know she doesn't choose to be nasty, she just isn't capable of behaving in the more responsible adult-like manner.

I am now aware that both of my parents had difficult childhoods. My dad grew up in with physical and emotional abuse from both his father and step-father. My mother-I believe-she had a lot of emotional abuse from my grandmother and my uncles. My grandmother died when I was in 3rd grade, so I never truly got to know her the same way I know my uncles. Now my uncles... .   They are awful to my mother. So completely awful, it's disgusting. My dad's older brothers were friends with my mom's older brothers when they were all kids. My uncles on my dad's side said that my uncle's on my mom's side would torture my mom so bad mentally that they couldn't believe it-and my uncles on my dad's side are the type of rough & tough teasing siblings too. So coming from them, you know it's bad. When my grandpa on my mom's side died from cancer, my uncles blamed it all on my mom, saying that she was the nurse she should have known something about it to begin with. They completely threw my mom underneath the bus. I clearly remember those days afterward where my mom locked herself in her bedroom and cried like I have never seen her. My dad stayed by her side and helped her through it like he normally did when she gets moody. My dad keeps telling me about how her family treated my mom too, since my dad witnessed it with his own eyes. Hell, my dad tells me one of the reasons why he married my mom was to save her-to get her out of that environment because they were so nasty to her.

She might play the victim card of not being popular when growing up, but she actually never told me about her real childhood. Most of the things I hear about her childhood that involve negativity actually comes from my dad and his side of the family-the people who saw it from the outside. All I know is that she never had the support or bound that my siblings and I have with each other. I find it really unusual that she doesn't complain about her siblings or parents like she does with everything else. Definitely since I have seen the way my relatives treat her. It makes me question what life was like for her when she was younger. I know BPD can be caused by trauma from growing up... .  

I know my mom is deeply insecure. I know my mom had barely any friends growing up, and not really any good ones. I feel that it was the trauma of the mental cruelty done to her, the lack of emotional abuse awareness at that time, and the lack of actual support that caused her to become who she is.  I know how damaging emotional abuse can be. I see the effects in not only myself, but my siblings and a lot of my friends who also have difficult homes. I feel guilty when I hate her and wish to abandon her because I know I'll just be another person that gave up on her. It eats me alive that thought. I know it's not my place, as the child, to do this, but still. I know I love her, I just hate how she acts the majority of the time.  I want to help her and I hope that one day I can get her the help she needs.

[AbbyNormal]

Hopesprings,

I hope you see this reply. Yesterday was my son's 9th birthday and I thought of you and your story on this thread. My mom called during a time when I've told her not to call. I have that boundary, don't call during these times of the day because I don't have time to talk. So, first she calls during that time. I didn't answer the phone. She leaves a message, "I was just calling to wish hit__ a happy birthday." She does her best to sound civil but you can hear in her voice she's seething that I didn't answer the phone.

Given that she said she was just calling with birthday greetings, I called back about 10 minutes later. I figured I'd make an exception just this once because, you know, special circumstances and all. When I called she went through a laundry list of problems she was having. She made no mention of my son and finally got off the phone about 30 minutes later. (I didn't mention him because I was waiting to see if she would.)

She continued to call and text throughout the day, still nothing about my son, just the issues that she wanted my help with. Finally she called about 8:30 last night and asked to speak with him. I told her he was in the bathtub. She got really angry and started raging. She said she had called twice just to wish him a happy birthday and she wasn't going to call again. I told her he could call back when he got out of the bathtub and she said no and that the "magic" of the wish was gone. She then told me that she was really hurt that I didn't facetime her while we were doing birthday cake, she told me she wants nothing to do with me, and she hung up on me.

And so, the silent treatment begins. I am fatigued. I feel like her entire aim was to figure how to make this day about her and get her feelings hurt. I dread my next conversation with her so I'm going to relish the silent treatment while I can. I know she's going to go on and on about how she's not part of my family. She says I'm a gatekeeper and that I won't give her access to my kids. (I wonder why?) I don't know if I can stomach practicing SET with that conversation. Anyway, I was thinking of how you were set up for failure in a similar circumstance and it helped. It wasn't so long ago that I would have been beating myself up for not being sensitive enough to her needs on my son's special day.

[hopesprings]

Abby,

Ugh! What a lot of inserted drama into your son's birthday.  It sounds so familiar.  You have to be available on her schedule and be empathetic to her needs, when it would be much more appropriate for your mother to be supporting you and helping you make your son's day special.  No wonder you are fatigued. 

For me at least, holidays and birthdays are hard because the occasion highlights an opportunity for my mother to act like a normal mom and when she doesn't it is glaring.  My birthday is coming up and my mom wants to do something with me.  It will probably be fine, but the last time we did something together she ended up creating a huge drama that upset me for two weeks.  I'm not sure how to handle it yet. She hasn't apologized for the last incident, and I'm sure she won't, so it is another thing we just don't talk about.  My mom sees right through my attempts at SET.  I need to practice more.

I'm glad we can support each other here and share our stories.  Happy birthday to your son and congratulations on another year of motherhood completed Take care of yourself.