Loss of Intimacy for 36 years

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

I really don't have a whole lot of anger, but I did not understand over the years what I know today.  I regret not doing things to protect me, but that is on me, and not on her where I would be her victim.  I actually am my own victim.  I do still love my UBPDW and would never want to hurt her.  I understand she just has no capacity to love another person.  All that said, I can see how I was denied proper nurturing and love as a child.  I have been looking for love all my life and it has not been available to me.  I have just been LOOKING FOR LOVE IN ALL THE WRONG PLACES!  I have needed to look for love within myself.  I can see that no other can give me love that I do not take for myself from within myself.  That is a plague of Codependence.  As an adult, I must stop looking and longing for that which I will not find.  Yes, a loving Relationship is another issue altogether.

     My UBPDW has not thrown me out of our Bedroom.  I sleep in our bed, and most nights she does as well, but with a quilt, or pillows placed between us so she can feel safe.  Often she shifts herself so her head is at the foot of the bed.  I say all this is her problem and not for my worry.  If she trys to rage, I have left every time for the last year.  She has to self regulate.  Often she will move to the guest bedroom until she gets over what ever it is that she got dysregulated about.  Again, this is her stuff, and I just ignore it since I discovered about BPD two years ago. 

     From time to time, at meetings or other functions, I have been offered a hug from another woman, or even a man.  That always feels so good to me, and causes me to sigh at how my life became the way it is and I have accepted it for so long. 

Art

[artman.1]

I really don't have a whole lot of anger, but I did not understand over the years what I know today.  I regret not doing things to protect me, but that is on me, and not on her where I would be her victim.  I actually am my own victim.  I do still love my UBPDW and would never want to hurt her.  I understand she just has no capacity to love another person.  All that said, I can see how I was denied proper nurturing and love as a child.  I have been looking for love all my life and it has not been available to me.  I have just been LOOKING FOR LOVE IN ALL THE WRONG PLACES!  I have needed to look for love within myself.  I can see that no other can give me love that I do not take for myself from within myself.  That is a plague of Codependence.  As an adult, I must stop looking and longing for that which I will not find.  Yes, a loving Relationship is another issue altogether.

     My UBPDW has not thrown me out of our Bedroom.  I sleep in our bed, and most nights she does as well, but with a quilt, or pillows placed between us so she can feel safe.  Often she shifts herself so her head is at the foot of the bed.  I say all this is her problem and not for my worry.  If she trys to rage, I have left every time for the last year.  She has to self regulate.  Often she will move to the guest bedroom until she gets over what ever it is that she got dysregulated about.  Again, this is her stuff, and I just ignore it since I discovered about BPD two years ago. 

     From time to time, at meetings or other functions, I have been offered a hug from another woman, or even a man.  That always feels so good to me, and causes me to sigh at how my life became the way it is and I have accepted it for so long. 

Art

[artman.1]

As for Detachment, I have a special way to describe it for myself.  I call it Detachment with Love, Understanding, and compassion, not anger and resentment.  If I harbor anger and resentment, I only hurt myself.  She cannot help or stop her BPD behaviors as she is Mentally Ill and suffering with this Disease.  How can I be angry, and resentful if I understand that?  I just can't. 

     The real issue is how I conduct myself in face of her Mental Illness, and how do I protect me.  First I must develop a Loving Relationship with myself, so I place a priority on my own needs and comfort.  This is my focus at this time, to gian some Codependent recovery such that I face my own needs first, and love myself first.  Through my childhood, and her disease, I have been taught to forgo my own needs in face of others needs and placing them before myself.  That behavior within me MUST STOP, and has.

Art

[Louise7777]

She cannot help or stop her BPD behaviors as she is Mentally Ill and suffering with this Disease. 

Art

Art, Im not qualified as ur T is to give you advice, but I believe her situation evolved to that stage first, cause you didnt realize it (as most of us), and second, because once you realized it, you still offer excuses for her. BPD doesnt mean shes incapacitated. We agree theres some arrested emotional development, but still, its hard for me to accept that they are not accountable on anything!

You said "she didnt kick me out of OUR bed". For me, thats another clue that you gave her all the space to do whatever she wanted. Seems to me you have NO control. Why dont u leave the bedroom yourself? Why you always give HER the choice?

You may think its easy for me to ask such questions since Im not the one dealing with a BPDso, and you are right, but at the same time I may have a diiferent approach.

[artman.1]

cristina,

     I am sorry if it sounded like I was excusing her Mental Illness.  That Illness has caused me much pain in my previous years.  I was actually acknowledging her Illness, and not blaming her for having a Mental Illness.  I have detached, and I am taking care of myself as best as I can given my remaining Codependent tendencies without regard to her. 

     This may sound bad to you, but when and if I go my separate way, I will Retire prior to Divorcing her.  I do not want to have my working salry used as a basis for her income when as soon as I retire I will be unable to live.  I know they want to base her living status on her past status, but after retirement, that status will be greatly reduced.

Art

[lockedout]

I call it Detachment with Love, Understanding, and compassion, not anger and resentment.

You can have detachment in this way, but you still need to have detachment. Cristina has a point that your wife is calling the shots and that's fine. We've been there.

I'll meet you half-way on the disease/mental illness part. It's neither; it's a Cluster B personality disorder. It can be treated like a "mental illness" to a certain extent but no more than you would for alcoholism or drug addiction. If she was a severe alcoholic or an addict who didn't want to get help, you'd be in the same boat. But at some point their denial and blaming gets to a point that you need to detach before you end up destroyed. Unfortunately their MO is to retaliate when it's suggested they have a problem. A healthy person gives the accuser the benefit of the doubt and actually looks into it. A BPDer doesn't. They are WORSE than the alcoholics and addicts.

[Louise7777]

Lockedout, you are right, its not an illness, its a disorder. And thats a HUGE difference!

Art, why would I find it bad that you are careful regarding your assets? Actually I told you that it would be wise to talk to a lawyer just to see all the scenarios.

I agree that you have to work on your codependant issues, it seems to me you are still not completely aware of the situation. You sounded like your wife has a disease and she is not responsible for her actions. I cant agree with that.

[whatathing]

Hello,

I know everyone is trying to protect and empower you so you can have and feel the right and the freedom to be happy. But after reading this thread, I think you´re just a fantastic person who is on a journey of growth, healing, and love, with such a humble and wise attitude. I think that being alone in the company of your wife must have been so hard, and being able to differentiate between the person that she is and the disorder that she has, is such a noble thing. I also believe that we must be able to see "through" the disorder and acknowledge the struggle and the loniless that they also must feel behind all that defense system, lack of self sense, etc... And to feel the "them" that somehow relate with us in some level that trancends the visible behavior. I don´t know what you should do, but it was inspiring to know about what you´ve been through, the compassion and meaning with which you live it. I wish you all the best.

[artman.1]

Thank You all,

    In have read about 20 books about BPD and the associated behaviors, and unless all those Therapists, and Doctors are full of beans, Borderline Personality Disorder is associated with INSANITY.  The complete abusive life my UBPDW was subjected to with her siblings as children has in fact made all of them INSANE to some degree.  They are not living on the same planet as the rest of us.  Yes, they can be healed through greatly stressful teaching and therapy.  As a codependent, I feel I am INSANE to at least some degree.  Actually INSANITY runs rampant to some at least small degree throughout society.  The Cluster B personality disorders are just a measure of mental illnesses.  Next year, I understand that Codependence will have a new name and will be included in the measures with the rest.  All this really does not excuse them or even me for our behaviors.  I stand responsible for my actions and behaviors, and My UBPDW stands responsible as well.  We are each and every one of us responsible to ourselves, others who we have harmed, and to our higher power.  It is like what has been said, "Let the one who is without sin, throw the first stone."

    How can I blame her when I am not without blame.

Art

[Louise7777]

Art, you are welcome. I hope you keep us posted on your improvements.

That said, I have to disagree with the "insanity" definition. I havent read as many books as you have on the subject, but Id be very VERY skeptical if they use the word insane for BPDs. Insanity has to do with dellusions or hallucinations and even so, doctors use it in rare cases.

BPD, as I understand it, has more to do with mood. They are not insane. From my experience, I can see they behave very rationally to reach their goals and that includes manipulation, lying and other control techniques. And they know exactly on whom they can apply them. Often they rage at family, but not at work or in front of outsiders. An insane person would do it regardless of anything.

I understand that you are in this situation for decades so its hard to see clearly. We are not here to judge, we are just expressing our views, no one is throwing stones, we are somehow in the same boat. Im afraid Im telling you things you dont like to hear, but thats part of a discussion, isnt it?

I hope you seek support from your kids, they may have witnessed a lot, although I believe her behaviour escalated since they left home and you are her favourite target.

Wish you and all people out there lots of luck.

[artman.1]

Cristina,

     What I have been talking about is the dance we do with our BPD partner.  I, as a codependent was drawn to her in a codependent way where I needed to be needed and wanted to supply her things I should not be supplying, and placing her needs before mine, and she was drawn to me because I gave her the needed attention and a dysfunctional focus.  I can see all this now after I have been analyzing what was going on with us.  This must be part of my recovery so I can recognize my own dysfunctional part and in the future, stop this behavior on my own part.  At first, I was like most others not yet able to see my part of this Relationship, and I was the Victim.  Now I see I am not a victim, as I was part of my own misstreatment and abuse.  She is and was a very good Mom.  I even saw that back then.  She nurtured and cared for our three sons.  When not in school during summers she set up activities to keep them busy every day.  She took then to Musieums, Science Centers, Library, and entered them in all kinds of activities, swim team etc.  They all became so much more than even the other kids because she was home and active with them.  Everything negative was pretty much just between herself and me.

Art

[artman.1]

Living with a PWBPD is a life of chaos and confusions.  I have been walking on eggshells so long and been blamed with a thread of truth so many times that I have a hard time with who I am.  Talk about a crazy life.  It could be worse, I could have cancer or even worse.  Wait!  I do have a cancer!  I had to deal with the effects all day today.  Because I leave at the first sign of rage at me, she spent most of today raging at others talking to me during her rages at them.  I am not sure about a boundry for that behavior.  When I get tired of listening, I walk away and go upstairs.  I am upstairs now, and the house is quiet.

Art

[Clearmind]

Hi artman, checking in to see where you are at.

I believe, and you may or may not agree, that being in limbo (aka undecided) as to the future of your marriage is tiring, exhausting and confusing.

Million dollar question artman - good place to start

Nothing changes without change - right?

Being where you are right now is tough. So I ask you, as a senior member of bpdfamily with over 2000 posts and over 2.5 years tenure on the board - how can we, as staff and as members support you from here on in?

[artman.1]

All you have helped me at least get to the place I am amd growing/learning.  Are you saying to stop posting?  It sounds like I may be a bother to you.

I guess I will check out.

Art

[Clearmind]

artman, sharing stories and what each of us endure is part of the process - it helps for a while - we like to feel validated. There comes a time where we all need to work on the tools available to us - use some centering and calming techniques/communication tools to help make our situation better.

I can see you have worked on you - that is great and I commend you - I have been a member for almost 2 years myself - I have seen your growth.

Your wife will not change and we need to decide if we can begin to work with the tools available to us! This board is here for you as much as is for me and other members - how you use it is always up to you - you need to walk your own path. I would certainly like to help you move forward so that your marriage and your situation improves rather than maintain status quo.

Does that sense?

[artman.1]

Clearmind,

     Yes, I appreciate your help.  I have been into the lessons for absolutely all the boards.  I especially like the L6-taking personal inventory board and the workshops.  I have even downloaded info that was presented in the workshops.

Thank You,

Art

[KateCat]

Artman, I know that I personally am hoping and hoping to see you let go of the "study" of codependence and take action to begin to break the codependence. Each time I think you are about to spread your wings and fly . . . you write another post that has an eerie resemblance to at least a hundred other posts I've read.  I guess that shows I am a codependent fool too, as I am still eagerly expecting to see something new. Like maybe you consulted with a financial planner. Or maybe you brainstormed with your sons about some relief for you. Or maybe you did an initial, free consultation with an attorney in your county. 

You remember what "unitedfornow" always says on the Staying board: "Nothing changes without changes."

What will it take for you to make a change?

[pallavirajsinghani]

 how can we, as staff and as members support you from here on in?

Art, My Friend:  This is a question meant to lead you further into introspection.   With this question begins your journey of navigating a different minefield. 

It is not meant to make you stop posting. 

Your first step was understanding what was involved (a mental disorder).

Your second step was to understand your role in the dysfunction (co-dependency).

Your third step was to admit that the lack of intimacy is unacceptable to you.

Now we need to help you either accept the status quo or to change it in order to be at peace.

Before we can help you, we need to know which road of the fork do you wish to take.  We will be there for you either way.  We see you stuck at the fork agonizing at the status quo. 

We are your friends and well wishers... .   always were, always will be.

[KateCat]

Oh, pallavira, thank you for putting that so well!

I have a few thoughts if you are taking the "staying" fork. Like, now that you are so fit from 24Hour Fitness, how about checking out the chapter of the Mountaineers in your area. It is perhaps the most active in the U.S., and many of their members are retirees. . . . You can invite your wife along on the hikes, or, if she declines, you can set out all sorts of glasses of water for her in advance so that her needs are taken care of.  And then you can go off with the warm, energetic and outgoing folks who are the Mountaineers. And things will begin to look very different.

[Jay1977]

Art, just a few thoughts I wanted to share with you. For background information: I am 35 years old and I recently joined this forum after my (assumed) BPD girlfriend of 2.5 years broke up with me.

My relationship lasted much less time, but I see a lot of similarities. (Although I can’t imagine how hard it must be for you after 36 years). I would like to tell you about it, and ask some questions after:

She is a sweet, wholesome, pretty looking 28 year old woman who loves children and comes across as a kind and caring person. She gets up early and works consistently, yet resents having to do so and would always jokingly mention that I should provide for her.

She did little around the house, and the worse the relationship became, the less she did. She claimed a lack of motivation.

As she pushed me away more and more, I tried to pull her back to me more and more. I became needy and more and more submissive. I cooked most meals and did about 90% of the chores around the house. She took all of those services for granted, and would burst out in anger when I would make sarcastic comments about her laziness and lack of investment in house chores.

I guess deep down I thought that she would appreciate me for doing these things for her. It also gave me a good feeling to give to her. But she despised me for it. She would get furious if I asked her ever so nicely to do something for me. (like ironing my pants when in a hurry to leave or bringing me a bottle of water to on a hot summer’s day).

Even during the honeymoon phase, she was uncomfortable with too much intimacy. For example: except for special occasions her kisses were mostly dry pecks on the lips. After the honeymoon phase, sex started to become an issue. She started to refuse more and more. She also began to use it as a weapon against me. The more she resisted, the more I tried. The more I tried, the more she resisted. When it did happen, she liked it a lot, always wanting more. It seemed as though she had a mental block that, stopped her from fulfilling her sexual desires. Until it stopped completely about 7 months before the breakup.

I too found myself trying to hug her and being pushed away- or worse, being told not to hug her when I was merely passing by her.

She used the salami technique: she gradually stopped all the intimate acts until there was nothing left. (no more kisses, no more hand holding, no more hugs, etc).

Now to my question:

Conventional wisdom has it (ask any dating/ relationship guru), that submissiveness and neediness are not attractive traits in a man. Approval seeking behavior and being a slave to a woman is not attractive. (I too made this mistake).

The question is: is the inability of your wife to be intimate with you a result her BPD and you being emotionally too close for comfort? Or is it possible that your needy behavior and the perceived lack of confidence is the cause of her lack of attraction?

I ask about you but it equally applies to me.

If the answer is that the problem lies with the neediness- would it not be possible to change the dynamics by changing your behavior? (I don’t know if that is possible after 36 years).

Am I being naive or is this possible?

[briefcase]

You've gotten some good, honest feedback from the group here.  We all want to help.  Whatever path you choose, you won't walk it alone.   

And I feel for you - I stood at that "fork in the road" for a while myself.  It took some pressure from the group here to help me along the way too.  That's what support groups do!

You have many friends here and no one will judge your decision.  We've all seen how hard you've worked to get here.  We also see that your work isn't quite done - it never is when you're undecided.  We want to see you take the next step in the journey is all.  Are you ready?

[artman.1]

After being Married to my UBPDW for over 42 years, I was going to therapy and after six therapists, I finally had found one who helped. He told me to read "I Hate You, Don't Leave Me", and "Codependent No More".  Guess what?  All the lights came on.

    After finding all I could (just like the Engineer I am) about BPD, I shifted to My Codependence.  I established Boundrys and stopped rages. Things were going better without rages.  I began detaching as I previously said.  At this point, I have detached to the point that if I were alone I would be just fine.  I wrote the letter to her just to get a perspective of how she would react and attempting to get a better insight to where she is.  I, now realize that she is absolutely not able to give intimacy like holding hands etc.  I have noticed very slight things, like when I try to hug her, she is now allowing it at least briefly and even raising her hands to my sides (Not hugging back, but at least showing some response).  At this point we have been married for nearly 45 years.

    This may seem low, but I am finally at the point of retirement.  I am looking for a new Consulting position, and getting ready for the big change.  Once that happens I will be in a position where I will just open up all the way and let her know where I stand in our RS.  I figure that will be the beginning of the end.

Art

[pallavirajsinghani]

Art, we will be here for you all the way.  We just see you agonizing at the status quo and want to help you through this too.

... .   and hugs my friend and lots and lots and lots of them.

     Don't get nervous now.  I am indeed a married woman!

:-)

[pallavirajsinghani]

OK everybody... .   send our good friend Art a lot of hugs.  We all could do with a good squeezy Barney the Purple Dinosaur group hug.

[zaqsert]

After following your recent posts, Art, take your pick... .   !

hug    or man hug 

[pallavirajsinghani]

Sorry Gentlemen:  I thought that all hugs were neutral... .   didn't know the difference between a man hug and the "other" hug.

Take your pick Art.

[KateCat]

Art, you just made my day! I promise you, we old dogs can learn new tricks. 

[artman.1]

Thank You all for the hugs.  I am just not used to getting them at all.  I always keep myself busy doing home improvement Projects.  I have recently been remodeling the fireplace in our Living Room, and completed the fireplace in the Family Room.  Recently completed remodeling the Kitchen with all New cherry cabinets and quartz counter Tops with new SS appliances.  There is always something new to keep me busy.  Recently my UBPDW has changed her mind about my projects being so very bad and such a failure, and has been complementing me on doing a really good job.  I really don't know if the letter had anything to do with this change of heart or not.  As per my yearly custom, I invested in another $6k IRA max CD again this year.  I think that made her happy as well, but it saved us about $2k in taxes so it is a very good investment indeed.

Art

[Grey Kitty]

Art, I've been seeing you since I arrived here, and I just want to say that I see you are getting uncomfortable sitting on the fence... .   and I'm one more guy who is here to support you as you are, and when you make a choice too.

 

(I guess I'm more used to hugs than you are  )

Once that happens I will be in a position where I will just open up all the way and let her know where I stand in our RS.  I figure that will be the beginning of the end.

Perhaps it will be the end. Or perhaps it will be the beginning of something different.

Remember to use the communication tools we've got here when you decide to open up. They really do work better. And don't be afraid to ask your friends here to help you apply the tools better when you are ready to try. 

[artman.1]

Yes, Communication is a key to success in one way or another.  I have been working on DEARMAN, and I believe I got set fairly well.  My T said to not forget about just good old clear communication rather than complicating with over dooing it.  Thank You, and I did get a lot of help with my letter in the first place prior to giving it to her.  My T did say she expected my UBPDW to react the way she did, but now she seems a little better and easier to get along with.  My T also told me my UBPDW could probably NOT be able to deal with Intimacy as her Mental Illness would prevent her coping with it.  Just too fearful.

I do understand that.

Art