I think EX is sensing no contact from me.

[Mutt]

I decided to go no contact with the ex this past week. With kids I don't know if it's absolutely possible, but I'm want to try my best.  School is back next week and I'm trying as much as possible to not be in the same physical space as her either. Instead of pick ups at her house, I want to pick up the kids at school on Fridays and then drop them off Monday. If she wants to tell me something about medicine for the kids, I want to keep a journal for the kids and she can write it down on that. I have not put that into effect yet, but that's what I want to do.


We were at family court this week and I made an effort to ignore her. She saw me yesterday close to my house at a mutual friends with the kids and I didn't wave, i looked the other way. I haven't called her for anything. I usually had to initiate contact because she gives me the silent treatment. I have been seperated for 7 months and my wife called and left me a voice message asking me "if she wants me to feed the kids before they come over tonight" For 7 months she has never asked me that and I have always fed them. I did call her back, I guess I broke NC and called and said "sure go ahead". Maybe I'm looking at this too much, but like I said, when it comes to any of the needs for the kids she has never bothered to ask in 7 months.

I started this just before court as well. Maybe she is trying to be nice with the kids and me? This is not her usual MO. She has been an absolute nightmare to deal with custody and access with the kids. I feel like she tries to control at every chance that she gets and alienates me from the kids as much as possible.

[Mutt]

I got the call but I noticed that she had e-mailed me a couple of hours earlier. I have blocked her on my phone with an app. I mainly use my phone for e-mail. Her message was that she had wanted to know if can agree on somethings before court like daycare.

I sense that either she is trying to bait me or she is fishing for information for her L. In seven months she has never approached me on parenting the kids after separation. I've decided I'm going to stay NC, even though I did respond her call about the kids.

I'll deal with the rest of this legal stuff in the caseflow conference.

[Clearmind]

Mutt, who are you going NC for? And why?

[Mutt]

Mutt, who are you going NC for? And why?

Clearmind,

I'm going NC for me. To disengage and detach. I ruminate and I still get caught up in her when she engages me. I need to move forward and put things into perspective and I can't do that when there's part of me that's still attached. I have to have a clear mind a healthy for my kids to fight for them. She doesn't need to have any influence in my life. To break clean from the abuser. To become indifferent.

[Forward2free]

Mutt, who are you going NC for? And why?

Clearmind,

I'm going NC for me. To disengage and detach. I ruminate and I still get caught up in her when she engages me. I need to move forward and put things into perspective and I can't do that when there's part of me that's still attached. I have to have a clear mind a healthy for my kids to fight for them. She doesn't need to have any influence in my life. To break clean from the abuser. To become indifferent.

That sounds like a healthy reason.

It is entirely possible to remain no contact where there are kids involved. Ours are 8 and 6 and I have spoken to him 3 times in the past 4 years only and the rest is via emails or lawyers.

What I discovered is that BPD/Nxh says things to sound nice and butter me up so he can get me close enough to slap later. I don't believe that he knows how to have te best interests of the kids at heart and most efforts to contact me are to engage me in someway.

I don't know if no contact by stealth will work. It helps to set a boundary so that ex knows what's reasonable. Ie. now that we are divorced/separated, please only contact me via emails with regards to the children or by phone in an emergency. Legal matters will be dealt with by my lawyer. I will not discuss legal matters with you and I will not answer your all's or respond to your emails unless I feel it us in the best interests of the children. This also sets a good image that the court will appreciate to show that you are being mindful of the kids needs too.

[Mutt]

Thanaks for the imput kormilda. I haven't seen one thing that she has done that is in the best interest of the kids. It's like she is entitled and she comes first. She only contacts me when she wants somrthing. I have countless voice messages and e-mails where I asked for something about the kids and it falls on deaf ears.

She is trying to settle out of court, or settle somethings out of court. She doesn't want 50/50 because she wants full child support. Her laywer said she also wants spousal support. Um, you had an affair and left with the other man when you were devaluing me and discarded me, and want me to support you? It's all crazy behavior.

I just don't know how to approach the no contact thing. But I agree, stelath may not be the wisest choice. I think your right, set a boundary. If you want to discuss or have a need, then do it in court. I want to stay far away as possible and have little communication were it's more personal like phone calls and stay on track with only talking about kids.

[Mutt]

Do you explain that you are going no contact to your SO? Or just set boundaries and keep that yourself? I would assume the latter is the best approach.

[david]

My ex left in 2007. I went email only communication a few months afterwards. It was difficult at first since neither one of us knew how to do it well. Eventually we both figured it out. I got rid of texting. I only answer my phone if it is someone in my phone book. She used to call from various numbers. Sometimes she would call back and leave a message. I had 6 numbers in my phone that she left messages from. It took ex much longer but I think that was because it didn't work for her. I could read an email, get upset, spend time to think it over, and then respond to what was appropriate to respond to. In the beginning I tried reasoning, explaining myself, correcting her false allegations. I was still engaged. Eventually I realized that was all negative engagement. As said here before, negative engagement is still engagement. Now I only answer emails pertaining to the kids. I don't need much time because the negative stuff doesn't phase me at all. It is expected. I say what is needed to say and nothing more. I do not have dialogue. I just state facts. recently ex has been exceptionally nice in her emails. This is new but since we have a court date in a few weeks it makes sense. I stick to facts. I have over 2000 emails telling me what is wrong with me so getting less than 10 nice emails doesn't phase me at all.

[Mutt]

My ex left in 2007. I went email only communication a few months afterwards. It was difficult at first since neither one of us knew how to do it well. Eventually we both figured it out. I got rid of texting. I only answer my phone if it is someone in my phone book. She used to call from various numbers. Sometimes she would call back and leave a message. I had 6 numbers in my phone that she left messages from. It took ex much longer but I think that was because it didn't work for her. I could read an email, get upset, spend time to think it over, and then respond to what was appropriate to respond to. In the beginning I tried reasoning, explaining myself, correcting her false allegations. I was still engaged. Eventually I realized that was all negative engagement. As said here before, negative engagement is still engagement. Now I only answer emails pertaining to the kids. I don't need much time because the negative stuff doesn't phase me at all. It is expected. I say what is needed to say and nothing more. I do not have dialogue. I just state facts. recently ex has been exceptionally nice in her emails. This is new but since we have a court date in a few weeks it makes sense. I stick to facts. I have over 2000 emails telling me what is wrong with me so getting less than 10 nice emails doesn't phase me at all.

I can see a lot of similarities. She went no contact when she executed her exit relationship and left. It was he idea to go e-mail. She wanted nothing to do with me and didn't want to see me. I'm assuming it was from shame and guilt for having been in an affair for 8 months before she left. Of course, she has many excuses as to why she was not in a relationship. I sent many angry e-mails at first. Then e-mails about the kids needs and if it didn't align with her needs I would get no response. I was still stuck in the same habit as before. Trying to point logic to her flawed logic, argue, reason etc... . It just does not work. She has engaged me a few times for soothing, unload anger at me because she needs to direct it somewhere and she was still in her honeymoon phase. I'm assuming her honeymoon is over now and from what I can tell she's very clingy. I was still going through the motions post relationship when she's in a commited relationship. It makes me emotionally and physically ill. It stresses me out to the nth degree. She won't change. I have to. I need distance and more time away from her event horizon.

This last week she has been acting sweet and concerned after our first caseflow conference. She's trying to manipulate me. Her bf lives outside of the kids primary residence. We have been separated for 7 months and she wants to move herself and the kids with him. She's trying to deal with me out of court. I have put months of work to get to this point. With everything that's happened this year and the lack of emotional support from her to the kids and lack of empathy, I don't want them to change schools and lose all of their friends. Too much, too soon. Things never move fast enough for her. I told her I want no contact and court stuff will be dealt in court. I told her e-mail only, no phone calls etc... . I want to pick up kids after school / after school care when it's my weekend and bring them to school on Monday. That way I don't have to see her either.

[Clearmind]

If there is contact regarding the kids then its Controlled Contact not NC. NC is near impossible with children. NC can cause parental alienation and you will unknowingly shut yourself out - given I am assuming they live with her.

Where kids are involved parents on some level need to resolve kiddie issues - kids also need to see that you and she are capable on some level to be civil - this is a life lesson they are watching play out!

Controlled contact is contact with boundaries - i.e. conversations/correspondence only about the children.

What other boundaries are you wanting to put in place?

[Mutt]

Where kids are involved parents on some level need to resolve kiddie issues - kids also need to see that you and she are capable on some level to be civil - this is a life lesson they are watching play out!

I think your talking about co-parenting. I'm adopting a parallel parenting style. She's HCP/BPD. The kids have not seen un-civility between us for some time. Devaluation with her started a longtime ago. I was always trying to put out fires but they have seen their mother treat their father like garbage for years. I was always passive until I started drawing a line and setting boundaries and fought back with her. She just doesn't cope with boundaries. It makes her more intent in digging in her heals, more aggressive, more controlling and angrier.

I get what your saying that it's important for the kids to not see the parents be civil to each other. She has no issues with cutting me down in front of the kids for whatever reason. I've danced this dance for years. Time to change the tune.

When she left she said I can see the kids every second weekend and if I behave I can get more time. The last time I checked with an L, married together, separated or divorced I still have custody. She left, shut the doors on communicating about the kids. There's a system out there that deals with that. She has been alienating me from the kids as far as I'm concerned and she was even doing it to me while we were together. One of her favorites during devalution was "Mutt you a f***** ___hole!" Louldy, repeadetly and always in front of the kids. I never knew what I did to bring that on. If I complained about her actions she would do it even louder. Her logic was "Mutt I'm teaching the kids that dad can't treat mom like that." If that's not alienation than I don't know what is. If I didn't make the attempt to see them more, then the kids are going to feel like I'm alienating them.

I have a court order, still early in proceedings. I've set out every holiday, only communicate by e-mail, kids spend one week with me and one week with her. It's such a pain in the ___ with holidays with her. Mother's Day was one of them. We had agreed that she could have the kids that weekend and then later she changes saying that we had agreed on her new proposal and she was sure that I had said yes. She has no qualms with lying. So I had the kids that weekend until 10 AM Mother's Day. I put in the court order to have the kids on each parents respective holidays for the entire weekend. I'll even have to go and change some of the language in the current order that I have in proceedings. She started this big thing a week ago because she wanted the kids on one of my weekends and I said no. She said there is nowhere that says that she can't have the kids on my time. So I will have to make sure there is no ambiguity in the court order. She's very controlling. My way or the highway. Win at all costs not matter how impuslive the actions are but without seeing what repercussions her actions cause.

There where a couple of the smaller holidays I had asked her about a week and a half ago that she finally mentioned to me when I told her I want no contact / controlled contact. I told her we don't need to discuss them. I'll file for them in court and she can do the same. School events or parent teacher meetings etc can be done separately.  

Boundaries are controlled contact / parallel parenting / requests for holidays done in court / pick up kids at school and after school care and return them to school on the mondays so there is no contact between us. I have a feeling this is going to be very hard but it can't be as hard as dealing with a person like her. It can't be. Maybe things could change if she went into treatment? I can't talk her into that. She's pushed me very far from her and her orbit with her bf. She's thrown everything else aside including actually being a good parent to the kids' my daughter complained about that today. Mom and BF are always hugging and kissing and it bothers me dad that it's not you. She was never that affectionate with me and that was a huge complaint with her during her devaluation that I was never affectionate with her. I can't control what she does, but I can set boundaries when it comes to dealing with me.

I just want out of the hostility, games, control and drama she brings. I want distance from the pain she brings. It's better for the kids to see a healthy dad than a depressed strung-out dad right now than seeing a dad being a doormat for mom. Just my opinion.

[david]

I spelled out every holiday in detail for the judge . He copied it exactly as I wrote it. We switch major holidays from year to year. Every holiday that our school has is also switched from year to year. Thanksgiving week, Christmas break, spring break is 50/50. Since they usually are not and even number of days I proposed the extra day by switched from year to year also. The details are important and have to be thought out for your particular situation.

Communication is through email only. Once both parties agree in an email it can not be changed unless both parties agree to the change in an email. That helps minimize conflict. It also shows who is agreeable and who is not. That helps later on.

Several years ago, before all this was in our court order, ex wanted the boys on mother's day. Mother's day was on my weekend. I agreed and actually offered the entire weekend and also asked that father's day be treated the same way. She agreed. Father's day that year fell on mother's weekend. I picked the boys up on Friday and on father's day night she showed up to pick them up. The police were called. I had the email already printed out. The police listened to me ,checked to see that both boys were okay, and then tried to talk to ex. Apparently she let them have an earful. The police came back to me and asked if all my ducks were lined up. I said yes and they left. The next day I received an email saying she had no idea why she would agree to such a stupid thing. By that time I no longer tried to reason so I did not reply.

Having a boundary that makes sense and you can follow works the best. Always keep in mind what is best for the kids. I was arrested once and she accused me, falsely, of assault. I was found guilty of disorderly conduct and put in jail for two weeks. I didn't touch her, yell at her, raise my voice, etc. Since that time I carry an audio and video recorder whenever I pick the boys up. I live in Pa and am not allowed to record according to the law. The recording may not be used in court but it may be used before so that you never get to that point. I video record my cell phone time and date and then outside my car to show where I am. When I get to her residence I turn the thing at me. I am allowed to record myself for whatever reason. Kids get in the car and I drive away. I turn it off several blocks later. I put it on my computer when I get home.

[silvo99]

I wrote a communication section for our parenting plan.  It has been one of the most beneficial sections of our parenting plan post divorce.  I can't stress how important it is for your sanity and ability to co-parent when your ex-spouse is angry and volatile.  In addition I have a parenting coordinator to call a meeting with if either one of us think there's a problem.  It's been almost a year since the divorce and I have only spoken in person 4 or so times with my ex-wife and no longer than a couple minutes at that.  Here are the basic guidelines for communication between parents, all of which have been confirmed with my coordinator since my ex-wife has complained in writing to me about the lack of communication.  She is actually complaining about her inability to lash out effectively.  The phone is specifically only to be used for emergencies which will originate with whoever has the kids.  Our parenting coordinator told me if our kids (ages 8, 9 and 10) are with me I should always screen the call since there is really no reason for her to call.  All other communication is to be done via email which has no obligation to be checked prior to 6pm.  And even then no timely response is necessary unless deemed "reasonably" required by the recipient.  Phone texting is not be used and guarantees no response.  Phone calls to the kids must occur between 8-8:30pm.

I have still received my share of nasty emails but what it really comes down to is communicating/parenting for the simple benefit of the children.  Emails become 1 liners about dropping off a forgotten school folder or something.  Or picking a time for conference etc.  You will never stop the nasty emails from an abuser since post divorce the system only recognizes the children's welfare and does not care about 2 adults arguing when the kids are not around.  That is how it has been put to me.  My ex-wife was sent into anger management therapy while at a session with the parenting coordinator.  That is only because she had been yelling at the kids while they were with her.  It had nothing to do with her harassing emails to me.

The point is, I feel that a shutdown of communication will help you move forward, keep a clear head and eventually act dismissively to abusive forms of communication.  All of which will make for better time spent with your kids.  Disengagement is good.

[Mutt]

Communication is through email only. Once both parties agree in an email it can not be changed unless both parties agree to the change in an email. That helps minimize conflict. It also shows who is agreeable and who is not. That helps later on.

Several years ago, before all this was in our court order, ex wanted the boys on mother's day. Mother's day was on my weekend. I agreed and actually offered the entire weekend and also asked that father's day be treated the same way. She agreed. Father's day that year fell on mother's weekend. I picked the boys up on Friday and on father's day night she showed up to pick them up. The police were called. I had the email already printed out. The police listened to me ,checked to see that both boys were okay, and then tried to talk to ex. Apparently she let them have an earful. The police came back to me and asked if all my ducks were lined up. I said yes and they left. The next day I received an email saying she had no idea why she would agree to such a stupid thing. By that time I no longer tried to reason so I did not reply.

Having a boundary that makes sense and you can follow works the best. Always keep in mind what is best for the kids. I was arrested once and she accused me, falsely, of assault. I was found guilty of disorderly conduct and put in jail for two weeks. I didn't touch her, yell at her, raise my voice, etc. Since that time I carry an audio and video recorder whenever I pick the boys up.

She has called charged me in the past for physical abuse when I was defending myself from a physical attack. She has called the police on me for harrassment but it was only a warning. She's threatened several times but has not acted on it. I don't want to take any chances but I think she still wants to leave that line of communication with me for her, but she threatens a lot.

I'm sorry to hear about your ordeals with your ex and the police. I keep reading in these forums how people get arrested on the behavior of their spuse. It's heartbreaking to hear the trials of what people have to go through because of a mentally ill ex.

Thanks david with your suggestions and ideas. I had flirted with the idea with recording, but I think I'm going to pick up a voice recorder for when I am around her and tape the pick ups as well. She projects and often times distorts and twists the truth at her whim to for her liking. She does this often.

I wrote a communication section for our parenting plan.  It has been one of the most beneficial sections of our parenting plan post divorce.  I can't stress how important it is for your sanity and ability to co-parent when your ex-spouse is angry and volatile.  In addition I have a parenting coordinator to call a meeting with if either one of us think there's a problem.  It's been almost a year since the divorce and I have only spoken in person 4 or so times with my ex-wife and no longer than a couple minutes at that.  Here are the basic guidelines for communication between parents, all of which have been confirmed with my coordinator since my ex-wife has complained in writing to me about the lack of communication.  She is actually complaining about her inability to lash out effectively.  The phone is specifically only to be used for emergencies which will originate with whoever has the kids.  Our parenting coordinator told me if our kids (ages 8, 9 and 10) are with me I should always screen the call since there is really no reason for her to call.  All other communication is to be done via email which has no obligation to be checked prior to 6pm.  And even then no timely response is necessary unless deemed "reasonably" required by the recipient.  Phone texting is not be used and guarantees no response.  Phone calls to the kids must occur between 8-8:30pm.

I have still received my share of nasty emails but what it really comes down to is communicating/parenting for the simple benefit of the children.  Emails become 1 liners about dropping off a forgotten school folder or something.  Or picking a time for conference etc.  You will never stop the nasty emails from an abuser since post divorce the system only recognizes the children's welfare and does not care about 2 adults arguing when the kids are not around.  That is how it has been put to me.  My ex-wife was sent into anger management therapy while at a session with the parenting coordinator.  That is only because she had been yelling at the kids while they were with her.  It had nothing to do with her harassing emails to me.

The point is, I feel that a shutdown of communication will help you move forward, keep a clear head and eventually act dismissively to abusive forms of communication.  All of which will make for better time spent with your kids.  Disengagement is good.

Thanks a lot for the suggestions and the break-down on the communication sections of your parenting plan. I have been struggling with emails with her throughout the day and never thought of actually saying to reply later in the day. It's intrusive and some days I can clearly tell she is dysregulated or looking for soothing and it's not something that I want to deal with while I am working. Communicating with the kids at certain times as well is something that I have not done. I would call after her supper but she either does not answer or is always busy. Defining things to specific times and that certain communication venues may not get a response is good to, to be clear and to remove control. I also like the idea of a parenting coordinator and this is all something that I want to add to the court order.


I agree as well too disengagement is good. Thank you both for sharing. I needed to take a break from the boards for a couple of days. I find at where I am in life, that it burns me out reading about BPD and dealing with the ex. I can only take so much of it and need a break.

[silvo99]

I forgot to mention that my ex has to use a specific email address when she emails me, kids@xxxx.com.  This makes it easier to filter out.  I'm self employed and work at home.  I was getting terribly upset and distracted during the work day while we were separated.  In this manner I can have MS Outlook and mail on my PDA for the kids@xxx.com address only set to receive outside the hours of 8am to 4pm.  Again, our parenting coordinator liked the idea since it really shuts down the useless ravings from one side or the other. 

[Mutt]

I forgot to mention that my ex has to use a specific email address when she emails me, kids@xxxx.com.  This makes it easier to filter out.  I'm self employed and work at home.  I was getting terribly upset and distracted during the work day while we were separated.  In this manner I can have MS Outlook and mail on my PDA for the kids@xxx.com address only set to receive outside the hours of 8am to 4pm.  Again, our parenting coordinator liked the idea since it really shuts down the useless ravings from one side or the other. 

Great idea and thanks for coming back for sharing. I just opened a new e-mail addy to filter out kids. Much easier to keep a track of as she replies to questions in different threads and it's hard to keep a track of.