Accusation and Admitting - when they demand you agree

[Cipher13]

Badly Abused

I feel your pain. I am told several times about all my faults and struggles that are at the casue of her feelings. I to admit toanything and everything she claims. After all if she is feeling that way its has to be true.  I have also written notes and letters and journals about the same things. It hasn't helped. Here is why... .if I did somethign wrong and I admit to it and I am sorry for it I can accept that fact and move on. If I am admitting to soemthign that I don't feel I am to blame for or that for the most cases is not really wrong or bad in reality but it is in her mind then after a period of time I can't stick to feeling like I can own it.

In other words the things I have done wrong and apologise for I can accept when she brings them back up. Its not nice or fun but I can handle it. The things she gets me to admit to and try to change I end up falling flat on my face with over time. To change and be a person Iam not by accepting blame and admitting to things I did not d wrong ends up fueling her fire and it escaltes into rages. Those I can not accept.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[DreamFlyer99]

Truth is not a moving target for most of us nons, and it only leads to feeling crazy if I "admit" (not a truth) to doing something I didn't even do/think/etc. And it tends to just feed into the altered and varying truth of my loved one with BPD. It doesn't help for us to compromise our reality in an attempt to smooth things over with the BPD, we're just joining their "what I feel is what is true" changeable version of reality.

I feel much more sane now that I am good with myself, in knowing what I have done or not done, thought or not thought, and am willing to stand for it. That doesn't mean I try to convince my pwBPD of my thoughts or deeds, that just joins into their circular arguing that goes nowhere and wastes my valuable brain-space. It means that when I am faced with being told what I was thinking I can say neutrally, "you can't know what i'm thinking." And if told I did something to him in a purposely hurtful way I can say (neutrally) "that was not my intention." And then I can leave it, refer back to what I said with "I told you what I meant" neutrally and not engage in their mind-bending verbal gymnastics.

Altering my own truth to fit the BPD's "truth" of the moment leads to craziness and depression. I can't go there anymore. It's not my job to justify their beliefs, and I won't be untrue to myself anymore. Why make myself unhappy just because they are unhappy?

[Traumatized]

Chipher13,

I totally understand where you're coming from.  I face those rages too.  It's a nightmare.  Yet owning up to things I didn't do just goes to show how far I've plummeted to try and stay in a relationship with her. 

I own up to the things I've actually done wrong to her and have no problem apologizing for them.  I've apologized many times to her.  It's just that this woman has a long list of offenses against me that just plain aren't true and she constantly holds them against me.  She badmouths me all over the place telling people what I've allegedly done and how evil a human being I am.  Then she demands that I stop acting like a child, take responsibility for myself, own up to everything I've done and acknowledge the tremendous pain I've caused her.

These false accusations have made our relationship so difficult that I seriously doubt we will be able to recover this time.  And if we do get back together, I know it will be more of the same and that she will never truly forgive me for what she thinks I've done to her.  She will always bring these things up and use them against me at some point down the road.

In order for her to view things the way they really are, I'd have to get inside her brain and rewire everything.  Obviously that's not going to happen.  No matter how much I try to reason and rationalize with her, she always thinks she's right and no matter what evidence is presented, refuses to change her mind.

It's total madness.

[allibaba]

I own up to the things I've actually done wrong to her and have no problem apologizing for them.  I've apologized many times to her.  It's just that this woman has a long list of offenses against me that just plain aren't true and she constantly holds them against me.  She badmouths me all over the place telling people what I've allegedly done and how evil a human being I am.  Then she demands that I stop acting like a child, take responsibility for myself, own up to everything I've done and acknowledge the tremendous pain I've caused her.

These false accusations have made our relationship so difficult that I seriously doubt we will be able to recover this time.  And if we do get back together, I know it will be more of the same and that she will never truly forgive me for what she thinks I've done to her.  She will always bring these things up and use them against me at some point down the road.

The problem with this approach (in a nutshell - trying to seek peace at all costs) is that it never allows the BPD to sooth themselves.  We never get any peace because the behaviors escalate.  They use this emotional abuse as a tool to make them feel better as an outlet for stress.  By enabling the behavior, we are actually doing them a disservice and allowing their behavior to get worse.

Have you read the lessons?  There are tools to escape this rollercoaster and return to some sanity.  ---->  Check them out  (on the right sidebar). 

[Phoenix.Rising]

I don't believe it is healthy to admit to wrongs you did not commit.  Validation focus on someone's feelings more that the event they are describing.  Their reality may not match yours, and it doesn't have to.  This might help:

Communication using validation. What it is; how to do it

[eyvindr]

BA --

If it's any consolation, everything you're writing about happened to me, too. Your post describes to a tee what my exBPDgf consistently attempted to do to me, every single time we had some big blowout.

Unlike you, the only thing I didn't do was to ever admit to anything I didn't do -- and that's more out of my own basic sheer stubbornness, on the one hand, and my own childhood issues connected to being held accountable for things my younger siblings did. As the oldest child, I was always told that I needed to set an example -- not unusual. And I was also regularly put in the "watcher" role -- and then made to feel responsible if something happened.

Just yesterday, in a completely pointless (given that the r-ship is over) and maddeningly yet predictable circular email exchange, my ex used the following phrase, verbatim (her caps), repeatedly in many emails:

THE REASON WE ARE NOT TOGETHER HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ME!

It's as stunning as it is sad, I know. Even though I knew it was futile, I still tried to find a way to get her to step back from the exchange and just look at her own words -- how could she NOT see that she was doing to me EXACTLY what she was accusing me of doing -- which was, in a nutshell, taking no responsibility for the issues in the r-ship (b/c I refuse to validate her accusations that I am an abuser) or the break-up (I left her). When I suggested this, she accused me of "playing the victim" (apparently b/c I indicated that this is the kind of repeated behavior that led me to decide to leave the r/s) -- even though I pointed out to her that I very don't see myself as a victim. After all, I left the r-ship b/c I was no longer willing to accept the emotional abuse. To which she responded:

THE REASON WE ARE NOT TOGETHER HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ME!

It's gotten so bad for me that I recently sat down and wrote a 4 page letter admitting to everything she THINKS I did wrong to her.  I tried to remember every single offense I've supposedly committed and began each sentence with, "I was wrong... .," and then confessed to doing whatever it is she has accused me of.  The majority of these things I did not do and do not feel right admitting to, but it's my last desperate attempt to make peace with her and resolve all the issues she has with me.

The problem I've had when I've confessed to things I haven't done, is that she then holds me accountable for the offense and demands to know WHY I did it.  When I don't have an answer she screams at me further, and will bring it up at some point in the future when she feels like going off on me.  My therapist said that since this tactic has never worked in the past, that I should just rip the letter up.  A good friend of mine told me admitting to things I haven't done is lying to myself and self-destructive.  My psychiatrist thinks I'm a masochist.  They are all probably right. 

But I guess none of it matters anyway because she hasn't responded to my last text asking to read the letter to her in person. I know it's probably for best, but I'm still hoping to get the chance to do it anyway. Some part of me still thinks it will clear the air, though I know in my heart it won't.

Have you considered that maybe it's time you started listening to your heart, and the advice of your friends and therapist?

Hang in there. Sounds like you're close to coming out of the fog.

[Traumatized]

BA --

If it's any consolation, everything you're writing about happened to me, too. Your post describes to a tee what my exBPDgf consistently attempted to do to me, every single time we had some big blowout.

Unlike you, the only thing I didn't do was to ever admit to anything I didn't do -- and that's more out of my own basic sheer stubbornness, on the one hand, and my own childhood issues connected to being held accountable for things my younger siblings did. As the oldest child, I was always told that I needed to set an example -- not unusual. And I was also regularly put in the "watcher" role -- and then made to feel responsible if something happened.

Just yesterday, in a completely pointless (given that the r-ship is over) and maddeningly yet predictable circular email exchange, my ex used the following phrase, verbatim (her caps), repeatedly in many emails:

THE REASON WE ARE NOT TOGETHER HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ME!

It's as stunning as it is sad, I know. Even though I knew it was futile, I still tried to find a way to get her to step back from the exchange and just look at her own words -- how could she NOT see that she was doing to me EXACTLY what she was accusing me of doing -- which was, in a nutshell, taking no responsibility for the issues in the r-ship (b/c I refuse to validate her accusations that I am an abuser) or the break-up (I left her). When I suggested this, she accused me of "playing the victim" (apparently b/c I indicated that this is the kind of repeated behavior that led me to decide to leave the r/s) -- even though I pointed out to her that I very don't see myself as a victim. After all, I left the r-ship b/c I was no longer willing to accept the emotional abuse. To which she responded:

THE REASON WE ARE NOT TOGETHER HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ME!

It's gotten so bad for me that I recently sat down and wrote a 4 page letter admitting to everything she THINKS I did wrong to her.  I tried to remember every single offense I've supposedly committed and began each sentence with, "I was wrong... .," and then confessed to doing whatever it is she has accused me of.  The majority of these things I did not do and do not feel right admitting to, but it's my last desperate attempt to make peace with her and resolve all the issues she has with me.

The problem I've had when I've confessed to things I haven't done, is that she then holds me accountable for the offense and demands to know WHY I did it.  When I don't have an answer she screams at me further, and will bring it up at some point in the future when she feels like going off on me.  My therapist said that since this tactic has never worked in the past, that I should just rip the letter up.  A good friend of mine told me admitting to things I haven't done is lying to myself and self-destructive.  My psychiatrist thinks I'm a masochist.  They are all probably right. 

But I guess none of it matters anyway because she hasn't responded to my last text asking to read the letter to her in person. I know it's probably for best, but I'm still hoping to get the chance to do it anyway. Some part of me still thinks it will clear the air, though I know in my heart it won't.

Have you considered that maybe it's time you started listening to your heart, and the advice of your friends and therapist?

Hang in there. Sounds like you're close to coming out of the fog.

That would make sense now wouldn't it, but I'm not listening to common sense.  If I listened to the advice of my therapist, my 20 or so family/friends who have all told me to cut ties and flee... .and to my heart that tells me this won't work then I'd be in good shape.

Well A LOT has happened since I've last posted.  She didn't want to hear the contents of the letter (which I ripped up later).  We talked on the phone and she accused me of lying about everything and broke things off with me... .again.  I kept at it, and finally got her to agree to meet up with me in person and talk some more.  Things went well for about an hour, but then she suddenly burst into tears and starting screaming at me, blaming me for causing her not to love me anymore.  Other people, total strangers, consoled her and gave me dirty looks, without knowing my side of the story or what's really going on.  Once again I was the vilian.

Then she had to walk a friend home so she kissed me and said she'd be back.  She never came back.  She called me an hour later to break things off with me... .again... .and went on a Crystal Meth smoking binge.  She said she did this because she couldn't stand the sight of my face and didn't want to be in my presence anymore.  We picked up our conversation again hours later after she had made out with her drug dealer (wonderful) but couldn't have sex for lack of condoms. Once again she told me we were done and to stop contacting her.   

Then she called me a few hours later and said she wanted to give me one last chance to save the relationship AND I HAD TO AGREE TO GO TO COUPLES COUNSELING or she was permanently walking away (again).  She wants to go immediately and pressured me into calling my therapist to schedule a meeting.  A meeting where she plans to tell him how I dissociate like a serial killer and need lots of help.  It's a meeting I don't want to have... .and my therapist doesn't want to have either. 

I'm at risk of losing new friends I've made because they know there's a train wreck coming and don't want to see it.  I can't blame them.  They also don't want to be involved with someone who's in a toxic relationship.  I don't want to lose them because they are healthy people and the kind that could help me get out of this fog for good.

[eyvindr]

Ok, BA. Time to make a choice, I think. I know it's not easy.

Do yourself a favor. Try to read your own words about this whole situation -- the words you've shared with us here -- but pretend you're listening to a friend tell you about what's going on in his or her life.

What would you think?If they asked you for advice, what would you tell them? Would you have any hesitation at all?

Hang in there.

[allibaba]

And regardless of what choices YOU make?  How can you take care of yourself here?  Are there some things that you can do to step away from the drama of this situation?  Do you read?  Can you meet up with an old friend for coffee?  What are other ways you can get your own balance back?

[Traumatized]

And regardless of what choices YOU make?  How can you take care of yourself here?  Are there some things that you can do to step away from the drama of this situation?  Do you read?  Can you meet up with an old friend for coffee?  What are other ways you can get your own balance back?

I really don't feel like doing anything right now after she just called and broke things off with me again.  My heart literally hurts over it.  I got my hopes up high that things would work out again and she just busted my balloon.

A friend of mine was supposed to come and see me today, but hasn't showed.  She may come later, but I don't know if she will or not. 

[Phoenix.Rising]

I do understand the pain you are going through,and I'm sorry you are hurting.  I broke up and got back together with my ex about 10 times.  It was terribly confusing, but it got to where I came to expect it, so I was anxious all the time.  

I'm not going to tell you what you need to do because I don't know, and this is the Staying Board, and I am no longer with my ex.  I do suggest you ask yourself what you need for YOU.  Forget about her for a minute.  What do you need?

I thought about this article too:

US: "Relationship Recycling" - What is it?

Peace to you.  

[Grey Kitty]

Hello and welcome, BA!

I'd just like to point out that choosing not to accept abuse from her and choosing not to admit to things you didn't do is not the same as choosing to leave / end the relationship.

If she decides that she doesn't want a r/s where you don't do these things, that is HER choice, not yours... .

I know I found that I couldn't be happy living in a world where I believed the things my wife said which didn't match what I was seeing, feeling, and experienced. Or acquiesced to demands based on that. I also found out that I didn't have to convince her that her world wasn't that way--just that I wasn't going to play by those rules with her.

I was very lucky, my wife went through some personal hell and put me through a bit more, but ultimately decided to live in a world that works for me.

Hang in there!

 GK 

[LifeIsBeautiful]

From my experience, living with someone with BPD requires a lot of patience and understanding. Something that I wasn't prepared for honestly. There are good resources out there, and there's one that holds true for me is that it's always about their feelings, not us or others. This is something that they have no or very little control over. Think of it as an illness where there isn't a quick cure for it. To use an analogy, I once had a persistent cough that wouldn't go away, and many people had told me to see a doctor or take something for it, but it wouldn't stop even though I had tried everything I could. They wanted me to fix it or get it fixed, the doctors couldn't and I really tried to stop, someone even told me if I tried not to cough it would. BPD certainly isn't like a cough, but the point is that I don't think anyone who has it wants it and would give anything not to have it. The way I see it, accepting your partner's disability and living with it, is not going to be easy and there will be sacrifices to be made if we really want to be by their side and go through it with them. It can happen to anybody and sometimes (I had my fair share of thinking of quitting) we have to put ourselves in their shoes (sympathy and empathy) and accept the situation (truth). Having said this, I don't mean encouraging their behavior or outbursts.

Hasn't anyone had a bad cough before? What happens if you just couldn't stop it?

[DreamFlyer99]

BA, you said:

I got my hopes up high that things would work out again and she just busted my balloon.

Um, why did you think things would work out again?

[hergestridge]

I've had this happening a lot, but I came to think of a related behavior that my wife engages in that caused me much confusion and headache;

She comes to me and asks me a question. Often a suggestion, family issues. She wants us to do this and that or whatever together. I don't. She's disappointed and furious. I peacefully explain why I disagree with her, but being the way she is the issue is never resolved. She then retires hurt and asks the very same questions a few weeks later (as if we haven't discussed it before!). She can repeat this time and time again and of course I give an increasingly irritated and frustrated response each time, at which she seems genuinenly surprised and hurt. This can go on for months (up to a year!) and escalate horribly.

I have tried to talk to her about this behavior but she has a hard time discussing her own behaviour, but from the little she's been able to articulate I think she sees it this way;

When she's in the right - and when the feels she's in the right, she is in the right - then she sees no reason to back down. The reason I don't agree with her is that she haven't managed to get her message across to me.

I've tried - without success - to ban this destructive behavior from our relationship. When she brings something up "a second time" I calmly tell her that I've told her what I think and that I have no intention of taking the same argument/quarrell once again, and without exception she gets upset with me for being "angry" ("angry" meaning "disagreeing" whe's when she's in that kind of mood) and then picking a fight out of that. Oh, it's not easy I tell you... .

[Traumatized]

BA, you said:

I got my hopes up high that things would work out again and she just busted my balloon.

Um, why did you think things would work out again?

Temporary insanity . 

I thought she was willing to try and work through the issues we had when she demanded I agree to go to couples counseling with her.  It may have been wishful thinking on my part, but she had her moments when she seemed like she still really loved me.  I know that I loved her... .and still do.  I was not willing to give up on her and I was hoping she was not willing to give up on me.

I was wrong.

She gave up on me.  We never went to couples counseling.  We never resolved our differences.  She broke things off with me in a cruel and painful way.  She went back to doing hardcore drugs and having sex with anyone who crosses her path... .especially if they have drugs.

I am left heartbroken and alone.  She is off making her life even worse and will likely die from a drug overdose someday.  It's tragic.  It's sad.  It's reality.

[DreamFlyer99]

Badly Abused,

that is tragic, all of it. My therapist has worked hard with me to realize that I cannot have power over anyone else's actions, they choose. One thing I said to her about my uBPDh was "it freaks me out because when he was really struggling he'd say he couldn't live without me and he'd just kill himself" and she'd say, "well, he might." The stuff we want to "save" people from is never something we can change for them, I suppose, since all we can change is ourselves. I've always had that desire to save others, or in the case of my husband, just be entirely and totally codependent so he'd always get his way! Things are changing these days, i'm working on being my own person, a separate entity, with her own wishes and needs and such (even if they go unnoticed, I have them! hahaha!)

you said

Temporary insanity

sounds about right!

Hergestridge, I think most of us on here are familiar with that dance and have dealt (or are dealing) with some version of that behavior. It's difficult because in the pwBPD's head, how they feel is really really true at that moment. I know I see with my own uBPDh that he can tell me the very next day that he doesn't really feel whatever way he said yesterday, but as yet he's unable to stop the rant that goes with his negative feelings. It must be really difficult in their heads! And it's definitely hard on our end since it seems we're talking different languages entirely.

[Hope26]

All of you made very good points, and Waverider's words especially stuck with me!  It is indeed often our own stubbornness that is our undoing.  "We know what we know, they believe what they believe."  If we can just remain calm and emotionally detached ourselves, we don't have to keep arguing our point of view.  We can just disengage and keep our sanity.  My 2 cents!

[DreamFlyer99]

If we can just remain calm and emotionally detached ourselves, we don't have to keep arguing our point of view.  We can just disengage and keep our sanity. 

OH wise words indeed! Now that I've finally realized what triggers me to forget to disengage I think I may do better. I realized after the most recent rant from my uBPDh that even though I initially disengaged, seeing that it was going nowhere, when he followed me upstairs ten minutes later he said a few words that triggered my inner preschooler.  He said something along the lines of, "So you've come up here to pout?" And my little girl said in her head, "I'M not a BABY! and YOU can't CALL me one!" And we're back to the races.

I told my preschool teacher daughter about my realization and she just laughed--seriously, I just need to remember to pull up my big girl panties when he starts!

I felt foolish indeed. I need to repeat this as a mantra: ":)isengage and keep my sanity."

[dawnjd]

This is fascinating --

Consistency causes emotional overload. Maintaining a facade causes stress to build up and it needs an outlet. This why big events and social occasions when control is necessary comes with a backlash drama.

Facade and retaliation are equal and opposite sides of the disorder, neither is "normal". This is why the facade can be overly sickly and cheesy.

Never thought of it this way before, waverider -- the idea that consistency would be overwhelming. Because, for well-adjusted, self-regulating brains, what could be easier than simply being consistent? But, in the context of a pwBPD, whose emotions are continually in a state of flux -- being consistent requires an act of will on their part. Imagine how much energy they expend to try to provide the outside world with the image they think is expected of them?

Instead of simply being themselves. I wonder, if they could just relax into their disorder, would it possibly help smooth out their moods? Then again, this would require the ability to self-soothe -- for instance, I can tell when I'm in a funk, and I can address it myself, in the form of thinking it through, considering the potential causes, and then coming up with a plan to resolve it.

Very interesting.

Oh my god, this makes so much sense now. It isn't just consistency with people, emotions, etc. it is physical consistencies as well. If I organize the house and clean, within a day SO is home and it is like a bomb goes off in the house. I don't know how it happens, but it does. He tells me, "I can't keep a routine, it is in my nature, I can't change." This makes me wonder if trying to keep a routine is just too painful and overwhelming to him. Sadly, if he would try to have some sort of organization in his life, many of his stressors that act as triggers would go away.