Circular arguments

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Mr. Fox,

  Classic.  I can see why I thought I was going nuts.

She seriously was making me ill, driving me crazy with her crazy talking.

I can very much empathize with you.  Had I known that she had BPD I think I could have handled it better, but that was one of the many things she neglected to inform me about.  I didn't find out until after the fact.

[MrFox]

Mr. Fox,

  Classic.  I can see why I thought I was going nuts.

She seriously was making me ill, driving me crazy with her crazy talking.

I can very much empathize with you.  Had I known that she had BPD I think I could have handled it better, but that was one of the many things she neglected to inform me about.  I didn't find out until after the fact.

[PuzzledMate]

A lot of those circular conversations aren't about what's being said.  They are about other things - usually emotions, perceptions of events, etc.  And hidden beneath the circular repeats or accusations is the feelings of the person - they feel something but its coming out all sideways.

At the heart its to communicate and validation can be great if you are with a person who tends to get into these.  Intimate communication being a large part of romantic relationships.

Validating feelings.  Everyone likes to be heard - BPD or not.  It isn't about facts.  It also means not staying around for verbal abuse if it goes that way.

Learning how to be a better communicator and listener can be super helpful for other relationships too.  Listening is an art.

Check out the workshop on Validation. 

Not to shoot the messenger on this one, your post is very valid unless you have to validate fiction they have created about you.  It's difficult to validate someone's feelings when they are directed (or is that misdirected?) at you.  

BPD:  You're yelling at me

Non:  I'm sorry you are feeling that way.  Nobody likes to be yelled at.

BPD:  Especially by you.  Who do you think you are?

Non:  I will try to be more sensitive to my tone in the future

BPD:  Who said anything about your tone?  You are yelling and it makes me feel like a POS

Non:  <<blank stare>>

BPD:  Oh now I get the silent treatment after you yell at me?

Non:  <<walking away>>

BPD:  You know I'm right so that's why you don't have anything to say

Non:  sigh

Not to hijack your threat OP, just had this happen to me last night for the millionth time.  Circular arguments for 3 hours +.  What a waste of time.

[GreenMango]

It's important not to validate the invalid.


First question I'd ask myself is was I yelling.  This happens.  Did it myself.  One of the 10th beliefs is if we say it louder we will be heard.  If I was then a simple apology.  That's it and move on.

Them: You are yelling at me.

You: I dont understand.  Can you help me understand when was I yelling?

Enough said.  If its a kitchen sink episode and other issues previously laid to bed those are off the table for discussion.  It isn't fair fighting rules to drag them up and you as the other person have to enact boundaries around discussions.  Not  everything is discussion worthy - some of it is just fight picking to resolve feelings.  Don't fall trap to that.

JADE is another factor - justifying arguing defending explaining.  When you JADE its like gas on the fire. 

If you can validate "feelings" it helps.  You aren't there to validate the distorted facts.

It also sounded like it was a fight picking mode boarding on abusive and harassing.  It was good to take a time out when it gets there.  No amount of validation (validation works best early) is going to salve that- time outs to abusive conversations are necessary because if you continue to engage its intermittent reinforcement.  Boundaries are best.  Sometimes a simple "you sound upset we can talk later when things are calm" and taking that break is best. 

These are high level - high conflict communication skills.  They normally aren't a concern in stable relationships but they do help even in regular relationships.  If you are a leaver but have kids, dealing with divorce , have to have interaction with your ex at work etc these tools are there for you.  They aren't easy to get the hang of they take some practice but at the end of the day what they do is give you some emotional distance from things like circular conversations.  Emotional argument traps.  You can't argue with someone's feelings.  It's a lose lose.

[maxen]

oh wow.

Oh yes, there was no productive conversation.  She'd store up things to use as come-backs, and if I brought up anything I wasn't happy about she'd hit me with 4 or 5 things.

and that right there was the doom of my marriage. no sooner had we moved into the house but the  pattern started. "dear, could you tidy up this little mess here?" "WELL TWO WEEKS AGO YOU DIDN'T TAKE THE GARBAGE OUT!"

1: she didn't speak her feelings when she was having them

2: she didn't engage my issue when i raised it.

and from acorns like that an oak of resentment grew.

this repeated for far more serious stuff, including emotional discussion, which she would never initiate, but would pile onto when i did initiate, 100% of the time. particularly the stuff that led to the end. she only once indicated that she was unhappy, in an email, and then refused to expand on it. one month later she announced her deceit, which had already started at the time of that email, and left. and after she left, when it didn't matter anymore, she unloaded all sorts of stuff that she had never, ever mentioned when she was thinking or feeling it.

Initially I wanted to have win-win conversations, you know, the kind people who are trying to work on a relationship have?  Well, she was always win-lose so I ended up going there too, just to add to the dysfunction.  In the end what we had was much closer to a war than a mutually beneficial relationship.

oh crikey i can barely bring myself to read that.

The bottom line was she was far more concerned with being in control, being in a one-up position, protecting herself, all motivated by intense shame, self loathing and low self-esteem; she figured if she "lost" one of those bouts her world would crumble.  There's no way to build a relationship from that place, and there's nothing for me there.

mine didn't want to be the winner or in control; she wasn't motivated that way and besides admitted that i'm insuperable in argument ( ). i think she was motivated by the BPD fear of rejectability if she opened herself up at all. i even had this exchange with her about two years into the marriage:

me: "dear, if i do any little thing that bugs you just let me know because i would never want to be annoying."

she: "well i thought a couple should accept everything about each other exactly as it is and never complain about anything."

two people who spend more time with each other than with all others combined should never have to complain about anything? ever? what planet is this? (all together: Planet BPD!) i literally took her in my arms and told her that she could tell me anything she was feeling, good, bad, or indifferent, about me or about herself, that i was the one she could do that with, that she would never have to worry, that's what a marriage meant to me. but communicate, on that regular, daily, open basis, is what she can't do. she even said as she left "i always thought you would be the one to leave."

i wish i had GM's insights then!

[GreenMango]

I know I didn't walk into it with many skills.  It's a steep learning curve.  Necessity is the master of invention.

The positive of learning these skills is they work in other situations.  You have a high conflict boss.  Bingo.

You got a difficult parent or family member.  Bingo.

You got a rebellious teenager.  Bingo.

Coming out of a relationship with a difficult person can have lots of gifts.  Mich of them I didn't realize until later.  It's also an opportunity to walk out of the relationship with more emotional maturity than you came in with.

[myself]

Have been in many of these. Each time around wears a relationship down. They are like a roulette wheel where you're better off walking away. Winning by not playing. 

[Surnia]

Its a very interesting topic.

Sometimes I think: It was the horrible circular arguments with my ex which brought me to rethink about my communication skills. Try to doing it better with him was like you would start learning new skills with the master class level.

Perhaps it would help to focus first on little allday examples. I have so many situations at my work were I think - ups- I did JADE first. I could have done better - like validation first, like asking a question about clarifying... .

[DragoN]

GM

It's a steep learning curve.  Necessity is the master of invention.

The positive of learning these skills is they work in other situations.

Completely agree. Amazed where they turned out to be very useful.

Surnia

like asking a question about clarifying... .

Doesn't seem to work very well with pwBPD / NPD. I got nothing but silence and deflection. Pretended the question was not asked or completely crack pot responses.

myself

They are like a roulette wheel where you're better off walking away. Winning by not playing. 

No other option, logic won't work. Once me, myself and I and my demons were all peacefully integrated after the marriage to my exBPDH, it was not overly difficult to spot the PD behaviors in the next one that showed up looking all sad and lost. So I threw something sparkly into the roulette wheel ,spun the wheel and walked away. Keep the money honey, I am happy to lose as peace of mind cannot be bought.

[Trick1004]

The circular arguments were never ending, always a losing situation for me. The one that sticks out the most happened a few months after we were together, it caught me totally off-guard and I should have ran away then.

We were driving around in my car, having a good time.

EX: I’m thinking about detailing my car.

Me: Detailing your car?

EX: Why are you mad and yelling at me?

Me: I’m not mad or yelling at you, just curious why you want to detail your car?

EX: Fine, I won’t get my car detailed if it makes you angry.

Me: I don’t care if you get your car detailed, I’m not mad. It’s your car you can do whatever you want with it.

EX: You always get like this anytime I want to do something that you don’t agree with.

Me: (I am now starting to get pissed) Have you listened to anything I said? Detail your car, I don’t care if you detail your car. I just thought it was a curious thing, I’m not mad or yelling at you. But I am starting to be bothered by you insisting that I’m angry about you detailing your car, when I don’t care.

EX: Well, it bothers me when you don’t care. I feel like you don’t care about me.

Me: Jesus, is this about your damn car getting detailed? I don’t care about that. I care about you, I just don’t give a hit if you get your car detailed.

EX: Well now you’re mad and yelling at me.

As you can imagine this went on till we got were we were going and I had to remove myself from her presence.

The ex also had a pretty stock script whenever she wanted to smoke a cigarette and I didn't want to.

I Don’t miss this hit at all.

[GreenMango]

Oh lord Trick that was a projective identification set up.  It wasn't about the car but sure as the day turns to night it became about you being the persecuting parent.

At the start none of it was about you, by the end of it you moved seemlessly into that role by finally yelling.  Doing the very thing that you were accussed of.

This isn't exclusive to BPD, but one of the more common coping skills.  People that don't have BPD can do it too when they don't know how to approach their own feelings or how to commumocate. If someone has poor coping skills and dealing with their emotional baggage they do things like this.  Pick innocuous subjects where they present a forum to address the background unresolved stuff thru a third party.  Direct and assertive communication is too scary or too much.

[Trick1004]

Thanks GM,

I look back on the whole r/s and for the most part felt like the persecuting parent. Guess it makes sense as the BPD is emotionally stunted and hasn't developed the skills to emotionally deal with problems and issues as an adult.

Trick

[maxen]

oh oh god i really need to read accounts like these.

As you can imagine this went on till we got were we were going and I had to remove myself from her presence.

as i had to also, and more than once. and that removal of myself was cited as one of the reasons my w left (sense of abandonment, and it was, however briefly). she also seemed to take my slightest opinion as a direct order (parent) and got very pssy about it (as in the dialog you put up Trick). i got the point of censoring myself (eggshells).

At the start none of it was about you, by the end of it you moved seemlessly into that role by finally yelling.  :)oing the very thing that you were accussed of.

... .

Direct and assertive communication is too scary or too much.

direct and assertive communication requires opening up, and opening up opens up to rejection or contradiction. i, otoh, communicated too directly and assertively. i set boundaries but was unconfident and uncomfortable doing so and wound up getting sarcastic. i invariably apologized (she never really accepted the apologies, i learned after she left) and worked to reduce this sort of thing and succeeded, but not completely. she didn't like it, and who would. but if i had established boundaries in the kindest way she wouldn't have liked that either, i feel. and  i yet have really to embrace the idea that i had a right to my frustration. i'm still in the FOG.

[GreenMango]

I had a very hard time with boundaries either too soft or too hard fluctuating with the actions of the other person.  And they were pushed on a lot. 

Personally sitting down and taking some time in the after math, looking at my priorities, things I need, and principles/morals etc on what kind of person I want to be has been the most helpful.  Its like they've become the foundation or wall to lean on when other things are difficult like communicating.  Making those things easier.



There's a pretty good book on the book review board by Cloud and Townsend.  And this workshop discussion you may find interesting. https://bpdfamily.com/content/values-and-boundaries

Maxen do you have kids with your ex?

[maxen]

Maxen do you have kids with your ex?

no i don't.

[GreenMango]

I hestitate to say this because kids are great, but thats good.  Parents with BPD can be a real struggle.  Maybe its a blessing in disguise.

[Trick1004]

Maxen,

You’ll get your way out of the FOG, it just takes time and a realization when you don’t have to deal with it how screwed up it all is with the ex.

Towards the end of the r/s I dreaded coming home to my ex wondering how I’d be able make her happy. Walking on eggshells, I must of crushed thousands of them. None of it matters; the ex reduced me to a shell of myself and then decided she was done and crushed me.

It’s been about seven months now. It took a lot of NC and self-reflection, I am getting myself back. It’s a brutal learning experience but I’m glad it happened. I've gained so much knowing how much I can give but also what I won’t put up with again in the future.

Trick

[PrettyPlease]

Me:  (Losing my cool and raising my voice) I care.  I love you.

Her:  Why are yelling?  You are scaring me.

Me: (calming down) I'm sorry.  I didn't mean to scare you.  I care very much about this and I want to talk.

Her:  See? It's like you are dead inside.

This one is perfect, perfectly insane. Thanks MrFox, mine was like this too. If it wasn't for the fact that this is occurring in the most important relationship in our life, the one that's supposed to be the core and centerpiece of our being, it would be funny, right?

Blahh... .BPD   

I know GreenMango, I know, be grown-up, be responsible, learn how to deal with it, don't vomit all over everything.    But just once in a while I need to get it out.

Good thread.

PP 

[maxen]

If it wasn't for the fact that this is occurring in the most important relationship in our life, the one that's supposed to be the core and centerpiece of our being, it would be funny, right?

yes you'd think that would count for something.

[frustrated b/f]

Maxen,


Towards the end of the r/s I dreaded coming home to my ex wondering how I’d be able make her happy. Walking on eggshells, I must of crushed thousands of them. None of it matters; the ex reduced me to a shell of myself and then decided she was done and crushed me.



Trick

I specifically remember feeling like "Who's behind door #1 today!" I never know who I'd be coming home to. Angry g/f, happy g/f, distant g/f or the ignoring me g/f! It sucked all the joy out of me!

[PuzzledMate]

Wow, this is amazing and I'm sorry you had to go through this.

Had this same conversation but replace car detailing with getting her eyebrows waxed.

The circular arguments were never ending, always a losing situation for me. The one that sticks out the most happened a few months after we were together, it caught me totally off-guard and I should have ran away then.

We were driving around in my car, having a good time.

EX: I’m thinking about detailing my car.

Me: Detailing your car?

EX: Why are you mad and yelling at me?

Me: I’m not mad or yelling at you, just curious why you want to detail your car?

EX: Fine, I won’t get my car detailed if it makes you angry.

Me: I don’t care if you get your car detailed, I’m not mad. It’s your car you can do whatever you want with it.

EX: You always get like this anytime I want to do something that you don’t agree with.

Me: (I am now starting to get pissed) Have you listened to anything I said? Detail your car, I don’t care if you detail your car. I just thought it was a curious thing, I’m not mad or yelling at you. But I am starting to be bothered by you insisting that I’m angry about you detailing your car, when I don’t care.

EX: Well, it bothers me when you don’t care. I feel like you don’t care about me.

Me: Jesus, is this about your damn car getting detailed? I don’t care about that. I care about you, I just don’t give a hit if you get your car detailed.

EX: Well now you’re mad and yelling at me.

As you can imagine this went on till we got were we were going and I had to remove myself from her presence.

The ex also had a pretty stock script whenever she wanted to smoke a cigarette and I didn't want to.

I Don’t miss this hit at all.

[PuzzledMate]

Maxen,


Towards the end of the r/s I dreaded coming home to my ex wondering how I’d be able make her happy. Walking on eggshells, I must of crushed thousands of them. None of it matters; the ex reduced me to a shell of myself and then decided she was done and crushed me.



Trick

I specifically remember feeling like "Who's behind door #1 today!" I never know who I'd be coming home to. Angry g/f, happy g/f, distant g/f or the ignoring me g/f! It sucked all the joy out of me!

It's nerve wracking.  I tell my T it's like sticking my toe in the emotional water.

I just assume the worst and am pleasantly surprised if all is well.

Of course, if she is getting what she wants (most recently a new car when the car she was driving was perfectly fine) she had dinner ready and would do whatever I wanted. 

Now it's back to angry wife.

How does one mentally prepare for the emotional crap shoot when driving home and walking through that dreaded door? 

[Mutt]

I can remember having discussions/disagreements/arguments with my ex uBPD g/f about something I inevitably did and after I would painstakingly take the time to explain the circumstances surrounding the misunderstanding, she would say the same exact thing as if I'd never spoken! It drove me mad and I kept buying into it until I finally realized the pattern and just gave up.

Since we share so many similar r/s characteristics with each other, I'm wondering if this was unique to my situation or if anyone else ever experienced it?

All of the time furstrate b/f. I know this one all too well. This was very frequent in the devaluation stage. She would rage and accuse me of not understanding her feelings, accuse me of something that I did not do and I played a long and got sucked into a circular argument. Shame on me.

I tried as hard as I could to reason logic with her and to no avail. It was not until later that I understood what it was, a circular argument, to say things once and only once and to disengage. You cannot reason logic with crazy.

The ex used to kitchen-sink often during these episodes. Bringing up a resolved issue from the past to obscure the present disagreement. This is something she would do, if was unto the truth and I was right. If I had done something wrong in the past, it was a steel trap. If she had done something wrong, she had amnesia, her recollection was foggy.

It's abusive behavior. They cannot handle the truth. That's why you can't communicate with them.

[frustrated b/f]

I can remember having discussions/disagreements/arguments with my ex uBPD g/f about something I inevitably did and after I would painstakingly take the time to explain the circumstances surrounding the misunderstanding, she would say the same exact thing as if I'd never spoken! It drove me mad and I kept buying into it until I finally realized the pattern and just gave up.

Since we share so many similar r/s characteristics with each other, I'm wondering if this was unique to my situation or if anyone else ever experienced it?

All of the time furstrate b/f. I know this one all too well. This was very frequent in the devaluation stage. She would rage and accuse me of not understanding her feelings, accuse me of something that I did not do and I played a long and got sucked into a circular argument. Shame on me.

I tried as hard as I could to reason logic with her and to no avail. It was not until later that I understood what it was, a circular argument, to say things once and only once and to disengage. You cannot reason logic with crazy.

The ex used to kitchen-sink often during these episodes. Bringing up a resolved issue from the past to obscure the present disagreement. This is something she would do, if was unto the truth and I was right. If I had done something wrong in the past, it was a steel trap. If she had done something wrong, she had amnesia, her recollection was foggy.

It's abusive behavior. They cannot handle the truth. That's why you can't communicate with them.

Oh wow! Your situation sounds exactly like mine! I specifically remember her sandbagging me with some already resolved issue from months prior. It was like a game of poker with her, holding on to these points-of-contentment as if they were Aces tucked away. Nothing was ever resolved, and when I made the mistake of thinking it was, sure enough here comes that Ace months later!

Being with her during those times felt like my own personal hell that no-one else got to experience except me!

[Mutt]

Oh wow! Your situation sounds exactly like mine! I specifically remember her sandbagging me with some already resolved issue from months prior. It was like a game of poker with her, holding on to these points-of-contentment as if they were Aces tucked away. Nothing was ever resolved, and when I made the mistake of thinking it was, sure enough here comes that Ace months later!

Being with her during those times felt like my own personal hell that no-one else got to experience except me!

I thought I was in that living hell by myself   until I found these boards. 

A couple of other tactics she would use during devaluation was talking louder or trying to talk over me when I said something. She would also go into this immature state and speak like a child "Shut up Mutt! Shut up Mutt! Shut up Mutt!" over and over again. Knowing what I know now, it's to drown out logic, reason and truth.

I use her dysfunctional defenses as a truth meter of sorts now. I know I'm unto something or that I'm right when she starts acting out this way.

My T said she would of thought me some tools in communicating with her but I told her how I deal with things, detaching and moving on, talking about kids only, controlled contact, so she said that there's no need.