tipping point

[AnitaL]

After a miserable few weeks, last night with uBPDh was relatively calm and we even talked.  This morning, early, he woke me by putting his arm on me.  He hasn't touched me on purpose in many months, so i awoke startled thinking it was the baby who somehow got out of his crib.  It seemed like my H was still asleep, so I moved his arm so I was holding his hand and just left it there, wondering what prompted this.  A while later after I had moved the baby into the bed and was feeding him, I hear my H say "I'm suicidal.  I was up all night, and then walked to downtown and back this morning."  I mumbled something like "oh no... . " and heard him murmur that he should have done it, should have jumped in the river, and then he was fast asleep.  That was three hours ago, and I suspect he will now sleep all day.

This is not the first time he has done this -- though at least this time he didn't tell me he'd kill himself and it would be all my fault.  I went through my usual pattern of panic, then empathy, then frustration, then anger, and finally confusion.  What am I supposed to do with that information?  I am so so so tired, since now I have had to take care of the three kids without enough sleep of my own this morning (yet again) and try not to let them see how upset I am.  We are supposed to go out today for a big shopping errand -- do I still take them?  Can I leave him alone if he's probably going to sleep for the day?  Is it coldhearted of me to not want to have to tiptoe around while he sleeps it off?

I have told him before I'd call the police if he ever threatened suicide and walked out the door again without his phone (as he did last time), but this time he made the threat and promptly fell asleep at home.  Should I call his therapist?  She wouldn't talk to me when i called about making an appt at H's suggestion, so why would she now?  Should I leave her a message and say on her voicemail that he is making vague suicide threats?

Here's what I'm thinking of telling him when he wakes up (or leaving him a note if he won't talk to me):

"It's clear that you are suffering terribly, and you told me this morning once again that you were feeling suicidal.  This is an awful situation, and it is a terrible burden on you.  It is also a heavy burden on me and on the children, because you are basically out of commission for long stretches of time.  I am not capable of helping you overcome suicidal feelings.  I've been trying for ten years, and clearly have not succeeded.  This is a situation that requires professional psychiatric care.  So I am asking you to please call your therapist and let her know what happened this morning, and then get a referral to a psychiatrist ASAP.  If you do not do this at or before your upcoming appointment on Tuesday, then I will call her again myself or write a letter explaining the situation.  If she will not talk to me, I will call the police and let them know that you are threatening suicide and need to be taken to the hospital for professional psychiatric treatment."

Is this on the right track?  Am I being supportive or enabling?  Am I totally missing the boat?  I have written here in the past about his vague threats of suicide and they have never resulted in any type of attempt or specific plan -- usually it seems more like a last-ditch stab at putting me in the FOG before he either sleeps or leaves the house, just to make absolutely certain I know how much he is hurting.  But this time he actually has a T who he might talk to, and I am really trying to stop enabling his destructive behavior by breaking my usual response patterns.  I am prepared to leave him if he does not get real help, but I am willing to try a bit longer as I feel we are close to a tipping point.

Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated.

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[an0ught]

Hello AnitaL,

dealing with suicidal ideation is one of the hardest things a lot of us are dealing with and every time it happens it is incredibly scary. 

This is not the first time he has done this -- though at least this time he didn't tell me he'd kill himself and it would be all my fault.  I went through my usual pattern of panic, then empathy, then frustration, then anger, and finally confusion.  What am I supposed to do with that information?  I am so so so tired, since now I have had to take care of the three kids without enough sleep of my own this morning (yet again) and try not to let them see how upset I am.  We are supposed to go out today for a big shopping errand -- do I still take them?  Can I leave him alone if he's probably going to sleep for the day?  Is it coldhearted of me to not want to have to tiptoe around while he sleeps it off?

No, it is not cold hearted. It sounds more like very exhausted and at the end of your line. 

"It's clear that you are suffering terribly, and you told me this morning once again that you were feeling suicidal.  This is an awful situation, and it is a terrible burden on you.  It is also a heavy burden on me and on the children, because you are basically out of commission for long stretches of time.  I am not capable of helping you overcome suicidal feelings.  I've been trying for ten years, and clearly have not succeeded.  This is a situation that requires professional psychiatric care.  So I am asking you to please call your therapist and let her know what happened this morning, and then get a referral to a psychiatrist ASAP.  If you do not do this at or before your upcoming appointment on Tuesday, then I will call her again myself or write a letter explaining the situation.  If she will not talk to me, I will call the police and let them know that you are threatening suicide and need to be taken to the hospital for professional psychiatric treatment."

Did you tell him? How are you doing now? From what you wrote he has not behaved like that before. Him voicing his concerns differently could be a cry for help. From what you wrote he is not just thinking suicide in generic terms, not just in specific terms but was at a river and just an impulse away. That is a fairly high level of ideation. Refusing to take all the responsibility and getting outside support sounds like a reasonable step to do.

Just in case you have not seen it yet there is also safety protocol on the right side bar (blue box).

[duncanville1]

I understand how frustrating this feels, my dBPDw has done this several times over the last four years. In no way would I discourage you to seek help if you feel he is a threat to himself. That being said even though my wife has talked about suicide I really do not feel she would. In my case the threats have been more for attention or support. The frustrating part is no matter what ideas I suggest to make her feel better and she seek help, there is always an excuse as to why that will not work and she refuses. For me I have grown cold to someone who always screams for help, then refuses to accept any.

[AnitaL]

Thanks for the responses.  An0ught, I could be wrong, but I don't think this time was any more specific than his past threats.  And I did tell him what I wrote in my original post, but in a way that was not at all how I intended.   I was feeling terrible and I didn't handle it well at all, because I myself was so angry and frustrated.  I told him what I wrote, but it came out in a demanding, near-hysterical tone instead of a calm and controlled one.  The reason is that he ended up surprising me by getting out of bed soon afterwards, and coming with us on our errand, which I did not ask him to do and he clearly did not want to do.  He was grumpy and nasty in the car on the way there, and started saying (in a hushed voice the kids didn't hear) how he would rather be dead and that he was angry with me every day of his life.  I told him that I didn't think that now was a good time to discuss it but we would need to talk later.  He kept on ranting in this hushed voice.  I asked him to stop, or to get out of the car and go home while I took the kids to the store myself because he was ruining what was supposed to be a fun time together.  The kids couldn't make out his words but it was clearly not a happy vibe in the car.  Unfortunately I had forgotten my wallet in the chaos of leaving the house and he refused to let me borrow his credit card (it's our joint account) so we just went on with it and he sulked the whole time.

Since then we've both been all over the map.  I have tried talking with him several times, only to be told to shut up because he doesn't feel like talking to me.  We did get as far as discussing whether I would ever talk with his T, who asked me to come in to one of his appts, but he finally came clean and said that he didn't want me there because he didn't believe I would be his ally, that I would try to undermine him. This makes me only more certain that he is not sharing with her the full picture of what is going on, including the miserable way he treats me, and that he has probably fooled her so far into thinking that he is simply depressed.  It seems hopeless that he will ever show her his true colors, so he will probably drop her eventually like his previous T's who didn't fix his problems.   

I think at this point I am done wanting to contact the T, and am deciding instead to just step away from his threats altogether. I fully believe he is using talk of suicide as a manipulative tool to blame me for his misery and I am tired of being sucked into this mess.  I have encouraged him in every way I can to seek help, and his only response is that it is all my fault.  He wants me to fix his life, while simultaneously admitting that this is impossible.  If he is requiring me to do the impossible before he will treat me like a human being, then I'm afraid no boundaries or tools are going to be able to save us. 

I'm really feeling hopeless right now.

[Grey Kitty]

First off,    I'm so sorry you are going through this sort of stuff. It is hard and scary.

I'd also say that your feeling that he is using it to manipulate you are probably accurate... . but it is still serious.

As for his T--you can't control whether he is open with her, or whether she helps him or not. Maybe you should tell her that he threatened suicide, but she probably won't be able to talk to you about him. I'd leave things at that point with his T.

We do have two workshops relating to suicide or threats of it. I do recommend reading them when you have time.

Depression and Suicidal Ideation

TOOLS: Dealing with threats of Suicide and Suicide Attempts (I found Skip's reply here a very useful, pointing out that 911 is one resource, but not the only one.

Hang in there, and take good care of yourself!

[AnitaL]

Grey Kitty, thank you for your helpful words.  I've read the lessons/links you provided before, except for Skip's post which was also helpful.  It is so hard because he does not seem to ever be making a specific threat.  He has been saying stuff like this for years, and it is only ever when he is raging at me.  I've called hotlines before but he has never been willing to do so himself and usually becomes furious if I bring up calling 911/ambulance.  He threatens every week or so to buy a plane ticket to the west coast and not come back, and he has never done that either, even when I calmly agree that it might be best for us to have some time apart.   

He says what is designed to help me feel the maximum pain according to what I imagine he must be feeling.  He talks about wanting to (never "I'm going to... . " kill himself as if it is a reasonable and appropriate response to the fact that we have not yet moved back to CA, which he blames me for.  (I've written about this in previous posts.)  Meanwhile he remains depressed, hostile, and unemployed.  Of course this continues the vicious cycle of us not being in a stable enough position to make such a move, which would require either him being full time at home with the kids (which neither of us want) or me quitting my tenured, stable job to stay at home (which I might actually like but understand is completely irresponsible at this point because he is not stable). 

So I guess it is up to me to try to force an end to the cycle by taking his words seriously even though I don't actually believe he will do it?  I asked him this morning if he had discussed getting a psychiatrist referral at his T appointment earlier this week, and he immediately flew into a rage that it's none of my business, to leave him alone, stop trying to bring third parties into this, stop talking to him in my condescending "professor" voice, etc.  I tried to stay calm and reminded him that his threat of suicide is serious and that I cannot continue to ignore it, and had already promised that I would either contact his T or the police next time it happened.  So I am going back to the idea to write his T a letter, citing specifically only the words my H used without interpretation on my part, and acknowledging that I am writing the letter against my H's wishes but with the belief that suicide threats need to be addressed.  I won't ask him whether they talked about it and I will expect and be prepared for the ensuing rage when he discovers that I followed through on this. 

[AnitaL]

I just reread the TOOLS link in its entirety (thanks again for the link), and this is the part I always get stuck on -- the advice seems to focus on threats that are acute and imminent.  Every time I have called a hotline for help they have told me to stay on the lookout for a specific threat or plan, and otherwise there is not much I can do except encourage him to seek help.  He finally has a T now but isn't sharing this with her (he told me he'd send his T a message to ignore everything I say if I contact her).  Bringing a 3rd party in does seem like the right move, but I'm just not sure how to do it without causing him to feel so humiliated that I push him past the level of ideation.  Someone asked about this in the TOOLS thread but I didn't think it got addressed. 

[an0ught]

Hi AnitaL,

it is good that you have first hand experience with help lines. That may come handy at some point when you are more worried again.

The dilemma you face is that he is sharing his ideation with you but also tells you not to do anything about it. That leaves you in a tough spot with no way to escape. In some sense it is a double bind which is imposed by him on you. It leaves you simply helpless - dammed if you do and dammed if you don't.

Feeling helpless sucks.   Being gamed sucks too.  

I understand that you don't want to share it with his T but on the other hand his behavior is abusive and there needs to be a stop to it. He is in therapy and

- his T needs to know

- you should not have to deal with it

- he should get professional advise

All this is now not happening. He set you up that way by sharing something that leaves you helpless and then demanding that you do not search for help.

What about making it a boundary not carrying this responsibility in the future but and thus enable the people in the triangle that should deal with it actually do? I understand your reasoning now and yes going to the T may be perceived as betrayal and yes the T relationship is new and might be fragile. But what if you tell him: "If I perceive that you are suicidal in the future I will send a short note to the T and will tell you I did. Suicidal ideation is really your problem and the T is there to help you. How to deal with it is again your and the T's decision. I refuse to shoulder that responsibility."

By having clear predetermined and known boundaries it is his responsibility what happens should he choose to cross them. He crosses it gets escalated to the T. Nothing wrong with that in principle as crossing the boundary may well be a cry for help. You never know.

[KateCat]

By having clear predetermined and known boundaries it is his responsibility what happens should he choose to cross them.

Wow, what a complex "Gordian Knot" your husband has tied for you here. You must be very, very exhausted dealing with this for so long. The whispering sotto voce while your kids are with you is striking.

Trying to maneuver between yourself, your husband and his therapist over this issue seems fraught with additional complexity. . . So, I'm kind of wondering what would be the worst thing that could happen if you told your husband--in the nicest ways the "Staying" Board has developed--that you are all out of ways to help and that the next time you hear the "S-word" from him you will call 911? That is, maybe just not wait until he provides you with all the legal elements generally considered necessary for an emergency mental health commitment in the U.S. Because he sounds canny enough never to give them to you.

Anita, I'm also wondering if you have read the posts of "allibaba" on this forum. Perhaps I'm the only one who thinks your husband and hers have similar traits . . . .

[Grey Kitty]

I like an0ught & KateCat's comments for you... .

I'd also point out that your actions/responses are better determined by what actually happened, what people do, what people say about themselves... . NOT by what a pwBPD tells you to do (or not do).

That's a general way of saying that you are not bound by his demands that you not contact authorities / 911 / his therapist about his talking of suicide... . cut that part of the "Gordian Knot"

The best way out is to decide where your limits (boundaries) are, be completely clear about them in your own head, and then live by them. (Whether you announce them to your H in advance or not!)

 GK

[KateCat]

That's a general way of saying that you are not bound by his demands that you not contact authorities / 911 / his therapist about his talking of suicide... . cut that part of the "Gordian Knot"

There you go! Thanks, Grey Kitty. That's what I wanted to say.

I seem to remember dozens of stories on bpdfamily.com of spouses who either used the "S" word or the ":)" word ("divorce" with great effect, forever and a day . . . until the one moment they were met with an action boundary. A whole lotta bluffs have been called pretty successfully by members of this community.

I think your husband is bluffing big time. And if he's not, that's important to know too, as you are losing steam here. 

[AnitaL]

Thank you, thank you, thank you, An0ught, GreyKitty, and KateCat.  It has helped me enormously to read your replies today.

In between a host of other things that came up today, I wrote a short but clear letter to his T that describes the suicidal talk by my H and how I think it is important that she be aware of it even if he will be unhappy that I did so. It is now in the envelope, stamped and addressed.  I will plan to drop it in the mailbox in the morning when I go out with the kids.

And KateCat, yes, I read many of allibaba's posts and commented on several threads in Staying.  My H has never gotten physically violent but nevertheless her story definitely struck a chord with me.

[AnitaL]

I thought I'd write an update on what happened since I sent the letter.

First, the T shared the letter with my husband, who then gave permission for his T to call me.  Fortunately she called me when he wasn't home and I talked with her briefly.  She gave me some basic advice on how to respond to my H when he talks about wanting to kill himself -- basically to tell him that I know I can't fully understand how he feels, but that I do care about him.  She also said I can call her to let her know what he said, and to reserve calling 911 for if/when there is an acute crisis. 

I did not relay this conversation to my H, and he said not a word about the letter until a few days later, where he blurted out mid-raging episode (as I was attempting to leave the room) that I should never contact his T again and he "knows my motives and doesn't trust me".  He claimed I don't care about him and did it only to have a paper trail of evidence to use against him.  (I assume he means in a custody battle.)  I told him calmly that I wrote it because I do care about him, and felt I had no choice when his life is at stake.  He repeated that he didn't trust me, and didn't believe me, and that my life was worthless to him.  I told him that I care about my own life as well as his, and that it was a shame he didn't care about mine.  He started to go off on how I am responsible for his feeling so miserable in the first place.  I said "I am not responsible for your feelings", and walked out.  He yelled after me "even when those feelings are about you?" and I didn't respond, but in my head the answer was clear:  Yes, indeed.  This is it in a nutshell.   This is what he wants from me, to take the responsibility for his negative feelings, but I cannot control or be responsible for how he feels.  I can only control my own actions and my own emotions, not his.  It has taken me so long to realize this.

Since then things have been all over the place, with his mood and control of his anger turning on a dime multiple times per day.  I have never been painted black for this long a stretch, and it has been extremely stressful.  My work is suffering due to my need to spend more time at home with the kids while he is "out of commission", and I actually broke down in tears at a meeting today in an embarrassing way when a colleague tried to guilt me into taking on some extra responsibilities.  I walked out, and ended up sharing some of what is going on with a supportive colleague who followed to check on me, but I'm sure the others were dumbfounded.  I feel that I am on the cusp of major changes, as things are just not sustainable in the current situation.  I am just not sure yet what exactly that will entail.  In the meantime I am loving the heck out of my 3 little ones, who are the best mindfulness teachers one could ask for. 

[Grey Kitty]

I said "I am not responsible for your feelings", and walked out.  He yelled after me "even when those feelings are about you?" and I didn't respond, but in my head the answer was clear:  Yes, indeed.  This is it in a nutshell.   This is what he wants from me, to take the responsibility for his negative feelings, but I cannot control or be responsible for how he feels.  I can only control my own actions and my own emotions, not his.  It has taken me so long to realize this.

You sound fantastic to me right here. This is the sort of attitude that will make a huge difference for you.

If it is new (sounds like it is!), then it is probably pushing your H quite a bit too. What you are seeing right now could well be some sort of extinction burst. I'm hoping it is.

Hang in there!

 GK

[zaqsert]

I said "I am not responsible for your feelings", and walked out.  He yelled after me "even when those feelings are about you?" and I didn't respond, but in my head the answer was clear:  Yes, indeed.  This is it in a nutshell.   This is what he wants from me, to take the responsibility for his negative feelings, but I cannot control or be responsible for how he feels.  I can only control my own actions and my own emotions, not his.  It has taken me so long to realize this.

You sound fantastic to me right here. This is the sort of attitude that will make a huge difference for you.

AnitaL, as I was reading this part I had to reply, and I see that Grey Kitty beat me to it.  What Grey Kitty wrote, I cannot echo it enough.  This attitude will help you tremendously.

I imagine part of the stress is probably from what I also hope is an extinction burst.  And also, since it sounds like this attitude and approach is relatively new for you, it can feel unsettling and stressful to try out these new things, before they start feeling easier over time. 

 from me too.

[AnitaL]

Thanks, GreyKitty and zaqsert.  It's funny -- I thought I WAS already there, because intellectually I knew that I wasn't responsible for his feelings.  But in that moment I realized I still had been feeling responsible, despite what I knew.  So it felt really good to be able to tell him that straight out and act on it.  I'm going to keep repeating it in my head during future episodes and hope that it will finally translate consistently to my actions. 

We actually had a decent night last night with some interaction at a birthday party for one of our daughter's friends.  The first time in a while.  We even had a (brief) discussion about our major issue (moving) where we came to an agreement that an immediate move is not going to be practical or helpful for any of us.  I actually laughed and said "so we do agree on something!" and smiled at him, and he remained in a good mood.  I have no illusions that it will last, but it was a much needed respite in a month of major negative stress.

[KateCat]

Wow, AnitaL, look what you have accomplished! Good for you.

[an0ught]

Hi AnitaL,

Thanks, GreyKitty and zaqsert.  It's funny -- I thought I WAS already there, because intellectually I knew that I wasn't responsible for his feelings.  But in that moment I realized I still had been feeling responsible, despite what I knew.  So it felt really good to be able to tell him that straight out and act on it.  I'm going to keep repeating it in my head during future episodes and hope that it will finally translate consistently to my actions. 

you looked at the situation, carefully made hard choices with calculated risks and accepted some consequences. And as a result you moved forward a huge step. You can be proud 

[AnitaL]

Thank you, KateCat and An0ught!  I'm feeling better than I have in awhile, like I have enough energy to begin to tackle the next mountain.  We are having another good day today, and I'm trying to soak it in while I've got it  .

[unicorn2014]

Wow this is a very serious problem. It makes me wonder how you got to this point. Were there warning signs along the way? I'm engaged to a man wBPD and I've also heard that third party statement about my T. I didn't like it when I heard it and I like it even less reading about your husband using it too! Im glad I'm not married with children, I still have a chance to leave my relationship before marriage if I choose. Yours is a very cautionary tale! However my fiancé would never allow me to support him financially, so I suppose that's a good thing on my side. Thank you for sharing your story.