Transference, cheating, and sense of self

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Apologies is it seems we're hitting the ground running... .

This is a new thread in reply to gotbushels, since further response in the old thread (on Christianity  on the Staying Board) would be a hijack, and off the original topic. Apologies if it seems like we're hitting the ground running, because we are.

... .

That is good, Samuel S. My Christian T would say God defines our worth, but you are right. pwBPD define themselves by their attachments which is unhealthy. Some of us nons may have also fallen into this same trap, though not to the same extent. Mine even wrote in her journal describing herself by her attachments, or roles. I define myself by my core values.

Haha Turkish, I find myself seriously relating to you, but in a funny riposte of events, you're on SO-leaving  

One of the things I realised years ago was I define myself by attachment to some extent, though I didn't see it as a problem until I got involved with a BP and saw codependency. This relationship is really teaching me to be independent, even curiously enough, given my gf's extreme attachment issues.

In my case, I perhaps took on the Provider and Father roles a little too much, which left little room for the Boyfriend role that my uBPDx desired. One could say that my c-d issue was attempting (and failing) to constantly be the Parent to her, to provide her emotional stability. I bought into this role (my part), and even had a pattern of it with women before in also platonic relationships. Lack of self-esteem? Perhaps... . I felt most worthy when being the Caretaker.

... .

"You abandoned me, it felt just like my father!"

After years of her warning me to not cheat on her. I think her father's uncovered affair (one of many over the years) was a huge trigger in her mirroring his behavior, though we never got a chance to discuss this. She did admit, in her one weekend of lucidity, of becoming like her father and hating herself for it. There is some truth to what she said.

... .

Some interesting things I see in my relationship:

My uBPDgf warns me and goes to extremes to act on her "warning me to not cheat on her."

Her father had an affair that only she knew about for years (not sure anymore as I'm discovering there's been a repeated, major lying issue in my relationship).

From what I understand, her father uses extreme solutions, no discussion, "my way or the high way", and used to beat his wife. All of that under the guise of "that's the man's job". In one fight, before I knew about BPD, I accused her of being exactly like her father. I realised many times before I learned about "projection" that she projected that I was exactly like my dad (who she hates because he refers to her as 'that woman' and treats her relationship with me as 'my option'. I took a shot in the dark and yes, I think she is really like her dad, and I don't want to marry that.

It took me many years to realize that, which is why I never married her (a passive aggressive form of abandonment?). Mine grew up in a violent household, with a physically and emotionally absent father who meted out violence upon his wife. I think this finally stopped when my uBPDx was in high school.

Has your BP gone through treatment? Given the parallels of our situations, I'm looking at the chances of my uBPDgf relapsing, should I choose to go through treatment.

Should you choose to go through treatment? For what? Mine was finally diagnosed by her T with depression (as if I didn't already know... . she is like my mom in this instance, though my mom doesn't have my uBPDx's meanness). Mine only goes to her T when she is feeling bad about things. She feels better, then stops going. We belong to the same HMO, and I asked if they ever dX'd BPD. The T said no, but they would refer the patient to DBT if they thought the patient was BPD. I think mine needs to hit rock bottom to get to that point. Given her talent for compartmentalizing her life, and projecting a different persona to different people (I observed months of dissociation when she was living with us. It was unsettling.), she may keep up her current pattern for a while. Until her current attachment abandons her, and then I fear things will get bad for her. It happened once before she met me.

Thank you for sharing. Those 6 years must have been really tough. I'm thankful you have your values. They have saved me countless times against her attacks and I expect that do the same for you.

Mine wrote a prayer in her journal: "Help me to be a better daughter, mother, lover, sister" and so on. If I were to pray the same, I'd say, "helpe me to be a better person." By default, I would be better to those around me. My attachments do not define who I am. I could lose my job, lose my mom (which will happen some day), even horribly lose my children. Does that make me less of who I am? No. I wouldn't lose my core identity. I don't fear loss (like my mom does... . my T says this is the root of my mom's hoarding tendencies, and she is bad!).

The lying is what irked me the most (in addition to her neglect of our children, though when she is engaged with them, she is a good mom). Lying what people do when they do what they shouldn't do. It's easy to not lie; don't do what you shouldn't be doing. Her justifications for her behavior were empty and meaningless. She lied because she knew what she was doing was wrong.

My uBPDgf seems to be courting a fallback lover already because of a horoscope she read saying "[this month you will find someone you can have a long term relationship with]". It doesn't help that same bloody horoscope said "[you will come across life-changing realisations this month]" after I had a breakthrough conversation with her about her contribution to her past relationships failing.

Such is the fickle nature of a pwBPD. Lacking that core Self, there is a tendency to be easily led. Mine said she needed someone to "lead her and guide her," a guru, basically. In reality, a Parent. I got tired of being Daddy, and I used to say during some fights, "I'm not you father," to which she would reply, "I know that!" Her reactions told me otherwise. I stood up for me and our little kids, and this started the exponential decay of the r/s over a year. She had some legitimate complaints about me, but they were mixed in with lies, deception, and her increasingly juvenile behavior. It was a confusing mess, as my T says.

I feel somewhat ready but I think I will really need to brace for impact of an affair. She broke it off with me, yet again, and she uses "we're not together" as an excuse to do whatever she wants.

Mine "officially" broke up with me, and ran into the arms of her FL, though she already had an emotional affair going on with him. We weren't married, so it wasn't necessarily wrong in her eyes. As my T said, "she is trying to justify the unjustifiable."

After a few weeks of me trying to work it out and forviging her, I finally threw in the towel and called us done. I let her live expense free in my house for 4 more months. In her eyes, we were done, and she snuck around to see him, went deeper underground after I told her staying out until 4am on a weeknight leaving me with the kids was unnaceptable (she responded like a contrite teen daughter, which was weird). The walls of our small house are thin. I had to put the pillow over my head sometimes at night to keep from screaming when she was talking to him. At least her cheating dad had the decency, if I can call it that, to put on his cap and coat and go for a walk to talk to his kept woman. Mine threw it in my face. She was basically mirroring the r/s of her uncle and aunt, who I didn't know until last year were officially married, but unofficially doing their "own thing" while living in the same house. I also refused to have my Ex mirror her own parents' dysfunctional marriage in front of my children. She compared herself to her mother, and me to her father, when in reality it was the other way around. I did the thing she always resented her mother not doing: I kicked out the cheater. What I did, I think, is I finally valued myself and my children above the idealized construct of the nuclear family---- my real attachment (not her, I was never madly in love with her as many here seem to be, she was trouble from the start).

It doesn't help that she gets lots of attention from men (she looks like the girl next door), gets chatted up by someone new every 2 weeks on average (her job is similar to a bartender, but meeting many people from many places, for extended periods of time), and substantially acts like she enjoys it (even though she denies it).   It's just so easy for her to get attention elsewhere when I don't want, or cannot, give it. To reciprocate attention, open oneself to attention, 'do nothing' as an excuse to get attention, and deny it all is something I don't want in a wife. I haven't told her, but yes, I'm seriously reconsidering marriage. She can go "do better" with someone else if she wants to continue like this.

Mine is also pretty. She met her current bf at a club while I was home taking care of the kids. In a weird way, I think she wanted me to forbid her from going out, and would have. I gave her freedom to make her own moral choices. Lacking the stable identity, she mirrored a narc kid--- and became someone else for a while. I think the attention seeking reinforces the sense of their own existence and susbsitutes an external sense of self-worth, something they lack at their core. This applies to NPDs as well.

I can see that you're 10 years older than her. I'm 4 years older than mine. I wonder sometimes if things would be better if I worked better hours and was richer, settled, and had significantly paid off a mortgage. Seeing as you're telling me you have that 10 years ahead of her and your BP still sounds really unpleasant, thank you for sharing this as well.

I'm almost 11. I'm very stable, make over twice her salary, financially, even though she cost me over $10K over the past 6 months (this is finacial abuse... . she broke up with me two weeks after I bought her a $37K SUV which we later had to get rid of at a loss). I'm about the calmest guy on the planet, and this would have been much worse had she done this to another type of man. What I'm saying is that none of this mattered. She craved the attention of a young boyfriend. That is what defines her worth. When the stress of two little kids, a mortgage and home (which I pretty much took care of, though she was good at cleaning) and two careers hit us, things went downhill fast. She wrote "I wasn't ready for this r/s!" This is a woman in her early 30s. For a pwBPD, feelings are facts.

In our cases, we can't count on reason and gratitude shaping our BPs, I respectfully don't think. We can count on greed, childishness, and just 'crazy' BP behaviour, regardless of circumstances. My respect to you for staying with yours for so long. That is admirable.

Mine can be good, but it is due to cultural and familial expectations, not from a core value and a strong sense of Self. One should do good regardless of who is watching, approving, or dissapproving. As I said before, to a pwBPD, feelings are facts. In the case of mine, feelings became facts. When that happens, the truth becomes a lie; reality, an illusion. Her remorse towards me is there, but it's minimal. Most of it is directed inward towards her core lack of self-worth and sense of shame of who she is (or isn't... . that pwBPD trait of feeling "empty" which mine said to me and also wrote). In that, i feel sorry for her. I can't wrap my mind around how that must feel.

[Turkish]

Apologies is it seems we're hitting the ground running... .

This is a new thread in reply to gotbushels, since further response in the old thread (on Christianity  on the Staying Board) would be a hijack, and off the original topic. Apologies if it seems like we're hitting the ground running, because we are.

... .

That is good, Samuel S. My Christian T would say God defines our worth, but you are right. pwBPD define themselves by their attachments which is unhealthy. Some of us nons may have also fallen into this same trap, though not to the same extent. Mine even wrote in her journal describing herself by her attachments, or roles. I define myself by my core values.

Haha Turkish, I find myself seriously relating to you, but in a funny riposte of events, you're on SO-leaving  

One of the things I realised years ago was I define myself by attachment to some extent, though I didn't see it as a problem until I got involved with a BP and saw codependency. This relationship is really teaching me to be independent, even curiously enough, given my gf's extreme attachment issues.

In my case, I perhaps took on the Provider and Father roles a little too much, which left little room for the Boyfriend role that my uBPDx desired. One could say that my c-d issue was attempting (and failing) to constantly be the Parent to her, to provide her emotional stability. I bought into this role (my part), and even had a pattern of it with women before in also platonic relationships. Lack of self-esteem? Perhaps... . I felt most worthy when being the Caretaker.

... .

"You abandoned me, it felt just like my father!"

After years of her warning me to not cheat on her. I think her father's uncovered affair (one of many over the years) was a huge trigger in her mirroring his behavior, though we never got a chance to discuss this. She did admit, in her one weekend of lucidity, of becoming like her father and hating herself for it. There is some truth to what she said.

... .

Some interesting things I see in my relationship:

My uBPDgf warns me and goes to extremes to act on her "warning me to not cheat on her."

Her father had an affair that only she knew about for years (not sure anymore as I'm discovering there's been a repeated, major lying issue in my relationship).

From what I understand, her father uses extreme solutions, no discussion, "my way or the high way", and used to beat his wife. All of that under the guise of "that's the man's job". In one fight, before I knew about BPD, I accused her of being exactly like her father. I realised many times before I learned about "projection" that she projected that I was exactly like my dad (who she hates because he refers to her as 'that woman' and treats her relationship with me as 'my option'. I took a shot in the dark and yes, I think she is really like her dad, and I don't want to marry that.

It took me many years to realize that, which is why I never married her (a passive aggressive form of abandonment?). Mine grew up in a violent household, with a physically and emotionally absent father who meted out violence upon his wife. I think this finally stopped when my uBPDx was in high school.

Has your BP gone through treatment? Given the parallels of our situations, I'm looking at the chances of my uBPDgf relapsing, should I choose to go through treatment.

Should you choose to go through treatment? For what? Mine was finally diagnosed by her T with depression (as if I didn't already know... . she is like my mom in this instance, though my mom doesn't have my uBPDx's meanness). Mine only goes to her T when she is feeling bad about things. She feels better, then stops going. We belong to the same HMO, and I asked if they ever dX'd BPD. The T said no, but they would refer the patient to DBT if they thought the patient was BPD. I think mine needs to hit rock bottom to get to that point. Given her talent for compartmentalizing her life, and projecting a different persona to different people (I observed months of dissociation when she was living with us. It was unsettling.), she may keep up her current pattern for a while. Until her current attachment abandons her, and then I fear things will get bad for her. It happened once before she met me.

Thank you for sharing. Those 6 years must have been really tough. I'm thankful you have your values. They have saved me countless times against her attacks and I expect that do the same for you.

Mine wrote a prayer in her journal: "Help me to be a better daughter, mother, lover, sister" and so on. If I were to pray the same, I'd say, "helpe me to be a better person." By default, I would be better to those around me. My attachments do not define who I am. I could lose my job, lose my mom (which will happen some day), even horribly lose my children. Does that make me less of who I am? No. I wouldn't lose my core identity. I don't fear loss (like my mom does... . my T says this is the root of my mom's hoarding tendencies, and she is bad!).

The lying is what irked me the most (in addition to her neglect of our children, though when she is engaged with them, she is a good mom). Lying what people do when they do what they shouldn't do. It's easy to not lie; don't do what you shouldn't be doing. Her justifications for her behavior were empty and meaningless. She lied because she knew what she was doing was wrong.

My uBPDgf seems to be courting a fallback lover already because of a horoscope she read saying "[this month you will find someone you can have a long term relationship with]". It doesn't help that same bloody horoscope said "[you will come across life-changing realisations this month]" after I had a breakthrough conversation with her about her contribution to her past relationships failing.

Such is the fickle nature of a pwBPD. Lacking that core Self, there is a tendency to be easily led. Mine said she needed someone to "lead her and guide her," a guru, basically. In reality, a Parent. I got tired of being Daddy, and I used to say during some fights, "I'm not you father," to which she would reply, "I know that!" Her reactions told me otherwise. I stood up for me and our little kids, and this started the exponential decay of the r/s over a year. She had some legitimate complaints about me, but they were mixed in with lies, deception, and her increasingly juvenile behavior. It was a confusing mess, as my T says.

I feel somewhat ready but I think I will really need to brace for impact of an affair. She broke it off with me, yet again, and she uses "we're not together" as an excuse to do whatever she wants.

Mine "officially" broke up with me, and ran into the arms of her FL, though she already had an emotional affair going on with him. We weren't married, so it wasn't necessarily wrong in her eyes. As my T said, "she is trying to justify the unjustifiable."

After a few weeks of me trying to work it out and forviging her, I finally threw in the towel and called us done. I let her live expense free in my house for 4 more months. In her eyes, we were done, and she snuck around to see him, went deeper underground after I told her staying out until 4am on a weeknight leaving me with the kids was unnaceptable (she responded like a contrite teen daughter, which was weird). The walls of our small house are thin. I had to put the pillow over my head sometimes at night to keep from screaming when she was talking to him. At least her cheating dad had the decency, if I can call it that, to put on his cap and coat and go for a walk to talk to his kept woman. Mine threw it in my face. She was basically mirroring the r/s of her uncle and aunt, who I didn't know until last year were officially married, but unofficially doing their "own thing" while living in the same house. I also refused to have my Ex mirror her own parents' dysfunctional marriage in front of my children. She compared herself to her mother, and me to her father, when in reality it was the other way around. I did the thing she always resented her mother not doing: I kicked out the cheater. What I did, I think, is I finally valued myself and my children above the idealized construct of the nuclear family---- my real attachment (not her, I was never madly in love with her as many here seem to be, she was trouble from the start).

It doesn't help that she gets lots of attention from men (she looks like the girl next door), gets chatted up by someone new every 2 weeks on average (her job is similar to a bartender, but meeting many people from many places, for extended periods of time), and substantially acts like she enjoys it (even though she denies it).   It's just so easy for her to get attention elsewhere when I don't want, or cannot, give it. To reciprocate attention, open oneself to attention, 'do nothing' as an excuse to get attention, and deny it all is something I don't want in a wife. I haven't told her, but yes, I'm seriously reconsidering marriage. She can go "do better" with someone else if she wants to continue like this.

Mine is also pretty. She met her current bf at a club while I was home taking care of the kids. In a weird way, I think she wanted me to forbid her from going out, and would have. I gave her freedom to make her own moral choices. Lacking the stable identity, she mirrored a narc kid--- and became someone else for a while. I think the attention seeking reinforces the sense of their own existence and susbsitutes an external sense of self-worth, something they lack at their core. This applies to NPDs as well.

I can see that you're 10 years older than her. I'm 4 years older than mine. I wonder sometimes if things would be better if I worked better hours and was richer, settled, and had significantly paid off a mortgage. Seeing as you're telling me you have that 10 years ahead of her and your BP still sounds really unpleasant, thank you for sharing this as well.

I'm almost 11. I'm very stable, make over twice her salary, financially, even though she cost me over $10K over the past 6 months (this is finacial abuse... . she broke up with me two weeks after I bought her a $37K SUV which we later had to get rid of at a loss). I'm about the calmest guy on the planet, and this would have been much worse had she done this to another type of man. What I'm saying is that none of this mattered. She craved the attention of a young boyfriend. That is what defines her worth. When the stress of two little kids, a mortgage and home (which I pretty much took care of, though she was good at cleaning) and two careers hit us, things went downhill fast. She wrote "I wasn't ready for this r/s!" This is a woman in her early 30s. For a pwBPD, feelings are facts.

In our cases, we can't count on reason and gratitude shaping our BPs, I respectfully don't think. We can count on greed, childishness, and just 'crazy' BP behaviour, regardless of circumstances. My respect to you for staying with yours for so long. That is admirable.

Mine can be good, but it is due to cultural and familial expectations, not from a core value and a strong sense of Self. One should do good regardless of who is watching, approving, or dissapproving. As I said before, to a pwBPD, feelings are facts. In the case of mine, feelings became facts. When that happens, the truth becomes a lie; reality, an illusion. Her remorse towards me is there, but it's minimal. Most of it is directed inward towards her core lack of self-worth and sense of shame of who she is (or isn't... . that pwBPD trait of feeling "empty" which mine said to me and also wrote). In that, i feel sorry for her. I can't wrap my mind around how that must feel.

[gotbushels]

Turkish, thanks for your sharing.

... .

That is good, Samuel S. My Christian T would say God defines our worth, but you are right. pwBPD define themselves by their attachments which is unhealthy. Some of us nons may have also fallen into this same trap, though not to the same extent. Mine even wrote in her journal describing herself by her attachments, or roles. I define myself by my core values.

I've been talking to her about values ever since the start of our relationship as she saw them on my wall at home on her first visit to my house. It will come up now and then as guidance for situations. We've also talked about her obtaining her own set of values and I've asked her a few months ago to formulate some. I didn't follow up but I think it's very important.

A lot of the problems stem from a lack of guidance and self worth. To have the BP have a set of values they can follow, I feel would be really worthwhile. I think a T is more qualified to talk to her about this now, and I wish I really created them in her earlier when she seemed more malleable and receptive. I will try again.

In my case, I perhaps took on the Provider and Father roles a little too much, which left little room for the Boyfriend role that my uBPDx desired. One could say that my c-d issue was attempting (and failing) to constantly be the Parent to her, to provide her emotional stability. I bought into this role (my part), and even had a pattern of it with women before in also platonic relationships. Lack of self-esteem? Perhaps... . I felt most worthy when being the Caretaker.

I think we all, to a much larger extent than everyone else, take on those roles. Given some belief that BPD results from emotional disposition from birth, as well as an "invalidating" environment (Manning), it would be correct that we would need to provide some guidance in order to overcome the *lack* of those figures in the BP's childhood. Of course, whether doing that is OK with you in a relationship, and to what extent, is a personal thing.

... . I think she is really like her dad, and I don't want to marry that.

It took me many years to realize that, which is why I never married her (a passive aggressive form of abandonment?). Mine grew up in a violent household, with a physically and emotionally absent father who meted out violence upon his wife. I think this finally stopped when my uBPDx was in high school.

To come level with you, I would probably stick around much longer if I didn't know about BPD. Even if I did, I also harbour the chance she can change. Another point to stick around. And that's just it, that's what keeps me around. I intend for her to go through therapy, I think that's the key. I have a set of dates in my head at which point I will issue an ultimatum. I don't want to continue a relationship, along with all associated damage to my life, with such qualities of hers.

Has your BP gone through treatment? Given the parallels of our situations, I'm looking at the chances of my uBPDgf relapsing, should I choose to go through treatment.

Should you choose to go through treatment? For what? Mine was finally diagnosed by her T with depression (as if I didn't already know... . she is like my mom in this instance, though my mom doesn't have my uBPDx's meanness). Mine only goes to her T when she is feeling bad about things. She feels better, then stops going. We belong to the same HMO, and I asked if they ever dX'd BPD. The T said no, but they would refer the patient to DBT if they thought the patient was BPD. I think mine needs to hit rock bottom to get to that point. Given her talent for compartmentalizing her life, and projecting a different persona to different people (I observed months of dissociation when she was living with us. It was unsettling.), she may keep up her current pattern for a while. Until her current attachment abandons her, and then I fear things will get bad for her. It happened once before she met me.

I think I would go through treatment. I'm very convinced that my uBPDgf has BPD. I've looked at the DBT methods and I think in the long run, they will significantly save me grief. I think those skills can also stand to help in my other interpersonal relationships, with or without her. I've got a great P who I've known for 13 years, and I think we're on the same page. He's had some BPD experience too. I think there's a lot of incentive and potential. I think it would change both of us, together or apart, for the better. It's very expensive. But I'd rather spend $250++ for an hour in DBT, take the chance on fruitful skills (it's got a good success rate I think), instead of so many hours and days with dysregulation and fear with her.

To me, therapy is a great goal as it would be much easier on her instead of what seems to be putting up limits and keeping fingers crossed that the BP doesn't break.

Thank you for sharing. Those 6 years must have been really tough. I'm thankful you have your values. They have saved me countless times against her attacks and I expect that do the same for you.

Mine wrote a prayer in her journal: "Help me to be a better daughter, mother, lover, sister" and so on. If I were to pray the same, I'd say, "helpe me to be a better person." By default, I would be better to those around me. My attachments do not define who I am. I could lose my job, lose my mom (which will happen some day), even horribly lose my children. Does that make me less of who I am? No. I wouldn't lose my core identity. I don't fear loss (like my mom does... . my T says this is the root of my mom's hoarding tendencies, and she is bad!).

The lying is what irked me the most (in addition to her neglect of our children, though when she is engaged with them, she is a good mom). Lying what people do when they do what they shouldn't do. It's easy to not lie; don't do what you shouldn't be doing. Her justifications for her behavior were empty and meaningless. She lied because she knew what she was doing was wrong.

Well done. Your identity is important.

My uBPDgf seems to be courting a fallback lover already because of a horoscope she read saying "[this month you will find someone you can have a long term relationship with]". It doesn't help that same bloody horoscope said "[you will come across life-changing realisations this month]" after I had a breakthrough conversation with her about her contribution to her past relationships failing.

Such is the fickle nature of a pwBPD. Lacking that core Self, there is a tendency to be easily led. Mine said she needed someone to "lead her and guide her," a guru, basically. In reality, a Parent. I got tired of being Daddy, and I used to say during some fights, "I'm not you father," to which she would reply, "I know that!" Her reactions told me otherwise. I stood up for me and our little kids, and this started the exponential decay of the r/s over a year. She had some legitimate complaints about me, but they were mixed in with lies, deception, and her increasingly juvenile behavior. It was a confusing mess, as my T says.

Agreed. We're all trying and I think it is important not to 'make fragile' the BP. I sure as eggs know I constantly fight with my emotions too and end up feeling a lot of contempt. Just a few days ago I scolded her for being so silly about giving me a 'lose-lose'. In hindsight I should have regulated myself and validated, or walked off politely without saying anything in the worst case.

I feel somewhat ready but I think I will really need to brace for impact of an affair. She broke it off with me, yet again, and she uses "we're not together" as an excuse to do whatever she wants.

Mine "officially" broke up with me, and ran into the arms of her FL, though she already had an emotional affair going on with him. We weren't married, so it wasn't necessarily wrong in her eyes. As my T said, "she is trying to justify the unjustifiable."

My best regards to you, brother.

After a few weeks of me trying to work it out and forviging her, I finally threw in the towel and called us done. I let her live expense free in my house for 4 more months. In her eyes, we were done, and she snuck around to see him, went deeper underground after I told her staying out until 4am on a weeknight leaving me with the kids was unnaceptable (she responded like a contrite teen daughter, which was weird). The walls of our small house are thin. I had to put the pillow over my head sometimes at night to keep from screaming when she was talking to him. At least her cheating dad had the decency, if I can call it that, to put on his cap and coat and go for a walk to talk to his kept woman. Mine threw it in my face. She was basically mirroring the r/s of her uncle and aunt, who I didn't know until last year were officially married, but unofficially doing their "own thing" while living in the same house.

... .

With all due respect, I get that it's mirroring.

Messing around with other men is my personal trigger point, so I'm not in the best position to discuss this.

Nevertheless, for future reference (in case you do get involved with another BP HA    ) ... . it's important to remember that mirroring is supposed to be a defence mechanism, and that the BP very likely lacks the skills. In this case, 'common decency' is what I'd call it. My BP, I daresay, may very well do the same. I think in dealing with the BP, I like what I've discovered in Manning's explanation, where the BP has been so crippled by her emotions she really hasn't learned what we'd call 'basic humanity'.

I get it's all academic at this point, but I would like someone to point this out for me too.

In any case, I would be struggling not to storm into that room and throw the phone out, and throw her out. So well done to you mate HAHAHA 

I think if both of us we're in the that relationship with our BP and she did do something like that, for learning's sake, I would probably raise continued limits around that behaviour and look at working on having life goals that include some form of fidelity. The rest of the work, I'd suspect, would need to go to the T or P.

I really don't see how one can discourage emotions leading to destructive actions with a 3rd party... .

I've personally tried to convey the great hurt it causes me to her when she allows other men to court her attention, but that doesn't seem to work. (Ref https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=222694.0)

Anyone else care to chime in here on this point?

[gotbushels]

... .

I also refused to have my Ex mirror her own parents' dysfunctional marriage in front of my children. She compared herself to her mother, and me to her father, when in reality it was the other way around. I did the thing she always resented her mother not doing: I kicked out the cheater. What I did, I think, is I finally valued myself and my children above the idealized construct of the nuclear family---- my real attachment (not her, I was never madly in love with her as many here seem to be, she was trouble from the start).

Yes, I can see mirroring there. I think it's important not to forget that mirroring is the defence mechanism, and people believe they don't do it out of spite. I believe that they do it because they believe they are so lousy that they try and project the horrible thing out and attack it, in order to feel better.

It doesn't help that she gets lots of attention from men (she looks like the girl next door), gets chatted up by someone new every 2 weeks on average (her job is similar to a bartender, but meeting many people from many places, for extended periods of time), and substantially acts like she enjoys it (even though she denies it).   It's just so easy for her to get attention elsewhere when I don't want, or cannot, give it. To reciprocate attention, open oneself to attention, 'do nothing' as an excuse to get attention, and deny it all is something I don't want in a wife. I haven't told her, but yes, I'm seriously reconsidering marriage. She can go "do better" with someone else if she wants to continue like this.

Mine is also pretty. She met her current bf at a club while I was home taking care of the kids. In a weird way, I think she wanted me to forbid her from going out, and would have. I gave her freedom to make her own moral choices. Lacking the stable identity, she mirrored a narc kid--- and became someone else for a while. I think the attention seeking reinforces the sense of their own existence and susbsitutes an external sense of self-worth, something they lack at their core. This applies to NPDs as well.

I took that same stand with "make her own moral choices", but I've also tried to make sure she knew how her actions made me feel.

Her behaviour when going out lately has gotten a bit worse, but according to Manning (again  ), due to the limits I've been setting up and the fact I won't tolerate "taking on her feelings for her" anymore, I think this behaviour should have been expected as Kreger also warns. 'Beware of countermoves'.

It sucks sitting here, fingers crossed, that you've done all you can and pray she doesn't cheat on you and lie about it.

I can see that you're 10 years older than her. I'm 4 years older than mine. I wonder sometimes if things would be better if I worked better hours and was richer, settled, and had significantly paid off a mortgage. Seeing as you're telling me you have that 10 years ahead of her and your BP still sounds really unpleasant, thank you for sharing this as well.

I'm almost 11. I'm very stable, make over twice her salary, financially, even though she cost me over $10K over the past 6 months (this is finacial abuse... . she broke up with me two weeks after I bought her a $37K SUV which we later had to get rid of at a loss). I'm about the calmest guy on the planet, and this would have been much worse had she done this to another type of man. What I'm saying is that none of this mattered. She craved the attention of a young boyfriend. That is what defines her worth. When the stress of two little kids, a mortgage and home (which I pretty much took care of, though she was good at cleaning) and two careers hit us, things went downhill fast. She wrote "I wasn't ready for this r/s!" This is a woman in her early 30s. For a pwBPD, feelings are facts.

I feel you man. You have to be calm to put up with that degree of rubbish. 10K is a LOT of money.

With courtesy, I disagree and say being calm may have helped you. I don't know if she's cheated on you yet but it might not be too late to drag her ass to BPD-specific therapy.

If you're still interested in working at it, maybe being present for her to develop those skills she's lacking and practising validation on her would help.

Perhaps we're on different home boards for good reason though 

In our cases, we can't count on reason and gratitude shaping our BPs, I respectfully don't think. We can count on greed, childishness, and just 'crazy' BP behaviour, regardless of circumstances. My respect to you for staying with yours for so long. That is admirable.

Mine can be good, but it is due to cultural and familial expectations, not from a core value and a strong sense of Self. One should do good regardless of who is watching, approving, or dissapproving. As I said before, to a pwBPD, feelings are facts. In the case of mine, feelings became facts. When that happens, the truth becomes a lie; reality, an illusion. Her remorse towards me is there, but it's minimal. Most of it is directed inward towards her core lack of self-worth and sense of shame of who she is (or isn't... . that pwBPD trait of feeling "empty" which mine said to me and also wrote). In that, i feel sorry for her. I can't wrap my mind around how that must feel.

It's not our role to change someone... . but what can we do here besides bear the brunt of their lack of values? I'd like to discuss solutions but they've eluded me at the moment. All I'm turning up with is self-regulate and self-validate... .

[KateCat]

gotbushels,

I took the liberty of reading your initial few posts and I wonder if you are sharing this with your therapist: "Sure she's not a drug addict or cheater with an STD, but she has beaten me multiple times and caused bleeding."

I ask because, if I understand the general lessons of this forum, there's a pretty strong belief that a victim of domestic violence is not the person who is in a position to manage the partner's mental health condition. You are clearly struggling mightily, and with a sense of good will, but maybe your therapist can help you better define your choices in this situation.

I'm thinking that any "FOG" (fear/obligation/guilt) you may be in is not so thick that you would counsel a woman who is being beaten to remain in the home and try to coax a male abuser into better behavior. Defining boundaries and enacting consequences might be closer to what you would advise her. (That and having the local DV shelter on speed-dial.)

"First stop the bleeding" is a phrase you see from time to time on this forum. It's especially appropriate here, where the bleeding is literal. 

You fellows who post on this forum are courageous social trailblazers in my opinion. Kudos to you for your openness to challenge and change.   Keep on questioning.

[gotbushels]

Hello katecat,

Thank you for your post and your concern.

Yes I agree that I should take the issue to my T. I've taken it to my P.

I am struggling, you're right.

I'm not as shaken as before as I'm more ready for it physically in case it comes. I fortunately, can defend myself in the event as well.

I've been working on the cause of it. I feel that youre right about limits. I have set them. I feel she is trying to respect them and work on the root: the extreme emotions. I believe we're going to need a T or P to walk us through though, as I think the causes of the extreme emotions themselves are beyond my abilities to resolve.

I am working on going through treatment with her.

I see where you are coming from with your point on FOG. I think you are talking about having adequate support to know my options and to gauge the abnormality of the abuse? I've raised the issue with my support group and I have my P. I'm not alone regarding people and perspectives. Thank you.

Courageous social trailblazers or silly people? Jk. Thank you for your support   I'm trying to have a sense of humour about it. I am looking into myself as so many success stories talk about doing that. I am looking at understanding "codependent" behaviour (i think the term is no longer as accepted as it was?) to see if I can be better balanced. Better balanced for myself primarily. If the event arises that my uBPDgf comes along in my life, so be it, for now.

I am trying to remain realistic about it.

Thank you again. That is sound advice.

[KateCat]

Yes I agree that I should take the issue to my T. I've taken it to my P.

I'd be really curious to know what licensed therapists are advising male victims of domestic violence these days. (Whether they are told by their professional organizations to be gender neutral as regards such advice, or whether there is debate on this issue. Offering different guidelines to men might pose a number of ethical and legal issues . . . and expose their profession to lawsuits, at least in the U.S. system.)

I do think vocal male victims of abusive intimate relationships--at least the ones who post here, seeking guidance--are social pioneers.   And certainly agree with the fellow who posted on your other thread that you would be well served at the moment to "put down the Manning and the Kreger and the Fruzzetti and the Marzipan and the Dingleberry" and protect yourself with some clearly defined boundaries.  

[gotbushels]

Yes I agree that I should take the issue to my T. I've taken it to my P.

I'd be really curious to know what licensed therapists are advising male victims of domestic violence these days. (Whether they are told by their professional organizations to be gender neutral as regards such advice, or whether there is debate on this issue. Offering different guidelines to men might pose a number of ethical and legal issues . . . and expose their profession to lawsuits, at least in the U.S. system.)

I do think vocal male victims of abusive intimate relationships--at least the ones who post here, seeking guidance--are social pioneers.   And certainly agree with the fellow who posted on your other thread that you would be well served at the moment to "put down the Manning and the Kreger and the Fruzzetti and the Marzipan and the Dingleberry" and protect yourself with some clearly defined boundaries.  

I went in asking my P how I can cope. My uBPDgf at the time was already taking steps not to get physically violent with me as I communicated with her heavily how unacceptable that was. Hence, my P didn't pursue the issue of physical violence with me.

I conveyed to him that the problem wasn't so much the physical abuse. It was the mental abuse. I got answers on that. We talked about what I can do regarding balance and maintaining my sense of self. He was quite comprehensive about it and I took notes. He asked me to consider Kreger's book.

I think the problem becomes more serious when physical abuse is recurrent and more serious than mine. I'm not underselling how serious physical abuse is, but there are definitely more serious cases I've read about.

Thank you for your compliment. My sympathies go out to those who have dealt with much worse.

Regarding your recommendations on boundaries, I already began addressing it since the first incident, and I've been reinforcing it ever since. Thank you. That is definitely very sound advice I would pass on to others. It helped me a lot even though I didn't have a 2nd voice at the time.