Some food for thought

[Beware of Junk Psychology...]

I know and understand that everyone on this forum are at different stages post break up, and emotions are a lot more intense than others, but I would just like to give everyone some food for thought, BPD is a severe personality disorder right? we all know this, we also know that lies are told and other negative behaviors are maintained as a form of control.  So with this in mind id like to very briefly bring up the subject of cults and manipulation:

If Charles Manson knocked on your door would you let him in?

If no was your answer, then why would you do the same for an ex BPD/HPD/NPD

These people who all suffer from severe personality disorders all manipulate as a means of control, just like the evil people like Charles Manson did with his followers, One might say Im highlighting the extremes here, but when you really think about it im really not, For example:

How many of you have accepted and gone back to a  BPD/HPD/NPD knowing full well that they had physically cheated on you more than once?

How many of you have accepted and gone back to a BPD/HPD/NPD after being physically attacked by them?

Its sub conscious brain washing and it needs to be addressed in a serious manner, years of manipulation can lead to severe physiological problems down the line, so with that in mind one must stand back and really think about this control and manipulation thats used upon us.     

[jammo1989]

I know and understand that everyone on this forum are at different stages post break up, and emotions are a lot more intense than others, but I would just like to give everyone some food for thought, BPD is a severe personality disorder right? we all know this, we also know that lies are told and other negative behaviors are maintained as a form of control.  So with this in mind id like to very briefly bring up the subject of cults and manipulation:

If Charles Manson knocked on your door would you let him in?

If no was your answer, then why would you do the same for an ex BPD/HPD/NPD

These people who all suffer from severe personality disorders all manipulate as a means of control, just like the evil people like Charles Manson did with his followers, One might say Im highlighting the extremes here, but when you really think about it im really not, For example:

How many of you have accepted and gone back to a  BPD/HPD/NPD knowing full well that they had physically cheated on you more than once?

How many of you have accepted and gone back to a BPD/HPD/NPD after being physically attacked by them?

Its sub conscious brain washing and it needs to be addressed in a serious manner, years of manipulation can lead to severe physiological problems down the line, so with that in mind one must stand back and really think about this control and manipulation thats used upon us.     

[Trog]

The first time I went back I didn't know (but had still been treated poorly and abusively regardless of understanding).

The second time she was on medication and went in believing things were under control (she stopped taking Her meds but even before that was abusive and controlling.

If she were to knock on my door now I'd close it immediately knowing... Probably less about what I know about BPD but more what that i value myself enough and know that she isn't good enough and indeed harmful to me).

As for my stage, I am no longer in love with my ex or hold a fantasy about what she mirrored for me, which was never a reality. Im know now i no longer love her and I don't feel pain (though sometimes anger) but that anger is more about me and what i tolerated from her than her. I don't know or care if these people are mad or bad. All I know is that I'm done. I am still interested though in me, my continuing recovery from the scars of this relarionship and how i will grow and develop. I don't care where she is, who she is with, what she does as long as it's not interfering with my life (and in NC it is not).

I was LC with my ex before and all that was rows, blame and pain to go truly NC has healed me and I recommend it to everyone.

[SlyQQ]

My ex was very adroit at manipulation an made herself fully aware of the psychology behind BPD an how they manipulate people to the extent of honing her techniques ( including those of brain washing )

I ( or anyone I know ) would not describe me as co-dependent or enmeshed and my ex probably chose me mainly for pecuniary reasons

I kept my boudaries very solid with one or two exceptions i sincerely regret in retrospect ( over a period spanning ten years ) Though I would have set them quite differently if i knew what i was dealing with

As a matter of course i would deflect or laugh of her attempts at ideation / flattery One of the few jokes she ever laughed at was when she said I was her hero and I countered you are my heroine

( I believe she laughed because she knew that many of her hooks had taken and the joke had a certain sarcastic irony i was unaware of )

( she was a heroin addict and that was one of my failed boundaries she had been clean for 5 years an used I told her if she ever used heroin again I would leave but two years later she did and i tried to help her rather than stand by my word )

this was a short while before we split as she was planning her departure in a particularly vicious manner ( to some extent i believe she had grown bored of trying to break me an was looking for greener pastures )

When she departed she linked up with an easy target who was perhaps not as strong willed as i was though the nature of her departure and my unconciously sucombing to her years of literal brainwashing subtle as it was left me devestated

A few months later my replacement rang me saying "I havent slept for three days i was afraid she was going to knife me shes in hospital. What should i do" ( a pseduo sucide attempt, bottle of pills walking over smashed glass lots of blood )

My ex an I had children together an her well laid plans had unravelled ( mainly due to bad luck rather than actions on my part as I had been taken almost completely by suprise ) An for that reason I had on a number of levels had to act as minder for her ( mainly via third parties i was looking after the children)

I contacted her brother to help with the situation an was in the process of arranging to get him to help sort things out when i recieved the message she had ( to everyones suprise ) managed to release herself from hospital. Within two hours I recieved another call from my replacement she had tracked him down at a friends place screaming at him till he came out ( his freinds had young children ) and when he did so she had tried to run him over.

That night i drove up with her brother an dropped him at her new house he rang me an said he had settled things down. The next morning he took her out for breakfast while her partner turned up with the police to remove his furniture from the house.

When her brother an she returned an she saw the furniture had been removed she shook her head and said what a waste of money he'll be back ( as told to me by her brother )

two weeks later he was! will you? 

 

[hergestridge]

Charles Manson had success in his own strange way. My exwife so obviously failed at everything she did. The reason I stayed initially was a combination of blackmail and me feeling really sorry for her.

She never managed to convince me of her world view. I knew she has wrong all along and that her way of thinking didn't work even for her. I don't think that was the dynamic Manson used to get to people.

[Turkish]

If our pwBPDs are like Manson, does then that make us like Tex Watson and Squeaky Fromme, some of the followers who actually commited the murders?

[Maternus]

If our pwBPDs are like Manson, does then that make us like Tex Watson and Squeaky Fromme, some of the followers who actually commited the murders?

I don't like the Manson-Analogy. Yes, pwBPD are painful, especially when you are involved in a romantic relationship with them. But not everything they do to you is a crime - even if it hurts you. They are not qualified to be good SOs, but that doesn't qualify them as Charles Manson's little siblings.

[raisins3142]

I agree that anyone that lies and manipulates should be unwelcome in your life, especially when other choices exist.

A lot of pwBPD do not intentionally mean or know they are hurting others or manipulating.  They just have very strong needs that overpower everything else.

Mine was a quiet/waif BPD, so the Manson thing doesn't fit her as well as it might some others.  Even though there are similarities, I feel a big difference between the waifs and others.  Mine rarely lashed out or did anything truly awful (that I know of), she was just full of shame and hurt and wanted to be loved and accepted and have a good life... .but sadly had absolutely know idea how to accomplish that.  :'(

I don't think she ever consciously meant to control me or to scheme.  She would lie a lot, which is a form of control/manipulation, but most of the lies were to hide her shame over her past and to keep me from becoming unhappy or think she was doing something weird/suspicious.  Her love bombing, idealization, push/pull, defensiveness, withdraw, and other traits were partially learned behaviors that were subconscious.  I think she kinda knew she had to hook me quick before I got to know her, and that she had to let her crazy out later on and at a slow pace to not make me run.  It was all manipulative in its way, but it was not something she pondered, like I imagine Manson did.  Also, I feel that if she thought of it, she honestly wanted me to be happy and the best for me.  It's just that it couldn't work out like that given how she is and if my happiness intersected with her need, then her need won.  I don't think she ever really thought at the time that she was hurting me.  To her, lying doesn't hurt others, for instance.  I think in many ways, I understand her better than she does herself.

[HappyNihilist]

Charles Manson had success in his own strange way. My exwife so obviously failed at everything she did.

I agree that anyone that lies and manipulates should be unwelcome in your life, especially when other choices exist.

A lot of pwBPD do not intentionally mean or know they are hurting others or manipulating.  They just have very strong needs that overpower everything else.

^ This.

jammo, I do agree with the overall analogy of cult/brainwashing techniques and the trauma bonds of a disordered relationship. The question about whether or not we should let a person like that into our lives is easy to answer - the more difficult, and more important, question is why did we let them in to begin with? What were we looking for? What part of us did they fulfill?

Manson fulfilled some need for Squeaky and Tex and the rest, after all.

[Turkish]

I agree that anyone that lies and manipulates should be unwelcome in your life, especially when other choices exist.

A lot of pwBPD do not intentionally mean or know they are hurting others or manipulating.  They just have very strong needs that overpower everything else.

Mine was a quiet/waif BPD, so the Manson thing doesn't fit her as well as it might some others.  Even though there are similarities, I feel a big difference between the waifs and others.  Mine rarely lashed out or did anything truly awful (that I know of), she was just full of shame and hurt and wanted to be loved and accepted and have a good life... .but sadly had absolutely know idea how to accomplish that.  :'(

I don't think she ever consciously meant to control me or to scheme.  She would lie a lot, which is a form of control/manipulation, but most of the lies were to hide her shame over her past and to keep me from becoming unhappy or think she was doing something weird/suspicious.  Her love bombing, idealization, push/pull, defensiveness, withdraw, and other traits were partially learned behaviors that were subconscious.  I think she kinda knew she had to hook me quick before I got to know her, and that she had to let her crazy out later on and at a slow pace to not make me run.  It was all manipulative in its way, but it was not something she pondered, like I imagine Manson did.  Also, I feel that if she thought of it, she honestly wanted me to be happy and the best for me.  It's just that it couldn't work out like that given how she is and if my happiness intersected with her need, then her need won.  I don't think she ever really thought at the time that she was hurting me.  To her, lying doesn't hurt others, for instance. I think in many ways, I understand her better than she does herself.

Mine is a Waif-Hermit, though I certainly saw Witch (she even called herself that... .with a B,.when she was kind of apologizing for such behavior). What you say is what they feel. It's a defense mechanism, and pwBPD, lacking a well developed sense of empathy, don't understand. It's just how they've operated to survive. Lawson, from Understanding The Borderline Mother, says:

"Some Borderlines consciously distort the truth in order to prevent abandonment, maintain self-esteem, or avoid conflict. Others may lie to evoke sympathy, attention, and concern. From the borderline’s perspective, lying feels essential for survival. (Although not all borderlines consciously lie, all borderlines experience perceptional distortions.) When desperation drives behavior such as lying or stealing, they feel innocent of wrongdoing and do not feel guilt or remorse. Apologies are rare, therefore, and borderlines may be confused about why others expect them to feel remorse. They believe that others would do what they did in order to survive. Their explanation is succinct, “But I had to!” Thus the borderline is unconcerned with the consequences of lying because she feels she had no other option... ."When the borderline is hurt or frightened, she feels that her survival is at stake; thus, morality is temporarily suspended." pp 20-21.

So what it it? The deliberate machinations of a psychopath, or the dysfunctional coping mechanisms of an emotionally dysregulated person with no coherent sense of self whose fear of abandonment (whether real or imagined) drives them?

The behaviors don't hurt us any less, but how can we detach from this?

[SlyQQ]

There are obviously BPD who fall into both categories those who are malicious devious charming decietul who for all intents an purposes are experts at maintaing a charade to fool you an evoke sympathy while they make there plans

and those who are to a large extent inocent victims of their illness it is pretty easy to tell the diference when the mask comes down 

[raisins3142]

Mine is a Waif-Hermit, though I certainly saw Witch (she even called herself that... .with a B,.when she was kind of apologizing for such behavior). What you say is what they feel. It's a defense mechanism, and pwBPD, lacking a well developed sense of empathy, don't understand. It's just how they've operated to survive. Lawson, from Understanding The Borderline Mother, says:

"Some Borderlines consciously distort the truth in order to prevent abandonment, maintain self-esteem, or avoid conflict. Others may lie to evoke sympathy, attention, and concern. From the borderline’s perspective, lying feels essential for survival. (Although not all borderlines consciously lie, all borderlines experience perceptional distortions.) When desperation drives behavior such as lying or stealing, they feel innocent of wrongdoing and do not feel guilt or remorse. Apologies are rare, therefore, and borderlines may be confused about why others expect them to feel remorse. They believe that others would do what they did in order to survive. Their explanation is succinct, “But I had to!” Thus the borderline is unconcerned with the consequences of lying because she feels she had no other option... ."When the borderline is hurt or frightened, she feels that her survival is at stake; thus, morality is temporarily suspended." pp 20-21.

So what it it? The deliberate machinations of a psychopath, or the dysfunctional coping mechanisms of an emotionally dysregulated person with no coherent sense of self whose fear of abandonment (whether real or imagined) drives them?

The behaviors don't hurt us any less, but how can we detach from this?

Thanks for this.

What a great quote from that book.

You are absolutely correct that the outcome is similar whether they want to manipulate and hurt you or whether it just happens or is subconscious on their part.

My uBPDexgf admitted she had cheated on 2 previous boyfriends and also lied to me when I asked about it.  She stated "you would have been upset about my cheating whether I told you outright or lied and you found out".  She was shocked when I replied "but at least you would only be a previous cheater instead of also a liar, which makes it harder for me to believe you are actually reformed".  The look on her face was one of shock at being faced with simple reality to counter what she would like to be true.

When I caught her in a lie about having HPV (she had it but told me she was recently tested for all STDs and was totally clean), she said "I must have compartmentalized that."  This speaks to her BPD, and their version of truth, but the effect on trust is the same.  I feel compartmentalization is just a fancy word for someone that can not only lie to others but also themselves.  It is still untruth, and it erodes trust.  You can't believe what they say, and it doesn't really matter whether they mean to lie or not.

She was fond of posting a meme that says "never apologize for how you chose to survive" which is very BPD.  The operative word their is "chose".  If you chose to survive by eating dogs out of people's yards instead of going to the food kitchen, then don't blame me for not wanting to let you dog sit.

[Hazelrah]

If our pwBPDs are like Manson, does then that make us like Tex Watson and Squeaky Fromme, some of the followers who actually commited the murders?

Love this, Turk.  I don't have actual data to back it up, but a high-level, educated guess would be that people more susceptible to that sort of 'brain-washing' might be much more vulnerable/lonely than your average person. 

[Mutt]

Hi jammo1989,

I like your analogy that everyone's path to healing is different and at different stages. A break-up with a pwBPD is incredibly painful. I can relate.

These people who all suffer from severe personality disorders all manipulate as a means of control,

I'm at a different stage. I'd like to share an objectionable perspective.

"Viewed by others as incredibly manipulative, borderlines themselves feel powerless.  They act completely entitled yet have very little self-esteem, expressions of which others often misinterpret as attacks" (Tim Pheil L.P.N, “Borderline Personality Disorder”, mhsanctary)

"Persons with BPD may often be thought of as manipulative or as attention-seeking. They can sometimes "act as if" they are okay. People with BPD need validation and acknowledgement of the pain they struggle to live with as well as compassion without blame or judgements." (Valery Porr,”Understanding Borderline Personality Disorder”, TARA APD)

":)ysphoria (a profoundly painful emotional state) is triggered by mood swings, stress, and emotional pain. The pain is so severe that borderlines will do almost anything to make the pain go away - the dominant cause of self-destructive behaviors, manipulation, drug and alcohol abuse, suicide and self-mutilation" (Leland M. Heller,”Life at the border”, Dyslimbia Pr Inc; 3rd edition)

"Antisocial Personality Disorder and Borderline Personality Disorder are both characterized by manipulative behavior, individuals with Antisocial Personality Disorder are manipulative to gain profit, power, or some other material gratification, whereas the goal in Borderline Personality Disorder is directed more toward gaining the concern of caretakers" (American Psychiatric Association)

www.aapel.org/BPD/BLmanipulationUS.html