Just caught him in another deception, help me figure out what to do

[Daniell85]

Ok, to reprise: Boyfriend would like to re open lines of communication. He told me that he is working on himself, and he would like to start slowly with us and rebuild things.

I liked the idea of it, but I was cautious. He told me he is not involved with anyone else and there was nothing for me to worry about.

Well, he has picked up his "friendship" with the woman he cheated on me with.

We had a short discussion about her last time we talked and he told me they had resolved their conflict and there was "peace" but he had not talked to her since. "Since" was early July.

As it turns out, he re added her as a friend on facebook,  and he is indeed talking to her.

His version of "nothing to worry about" is a big conflict with my version of "nothing to worry about".

I don't believe he is talking to her a lot. But. I don't like the deception, and I am pretty hurt she is there. That being said, I understand it's his choice. It's very typical of him to toss me out in a fit of anger, deciding we are "done" while telling me (this time) "we need to heal". Then a few weeks later really start asking to be together again. Except in the  mean time, he does stuff like getting involved to a certain degree with this woman, or setting up a new "status quo" where he has broken all agreements we had.

Problem then is he refuses to change new status quo and I am stuck in a situation that really sets off the pain I have from him cheating. For example, he will refuse to remove her as a friend. Essentially I am forced to deal with these things.

I don't know what to do. Prior to being on this forum, I would have gone in, told him no can do, we get into a battle of wills, a massive ugly fight and I get blamed for it all and he gets further entrenched into forcing me to accept things we already worked out before that wouldn't be happening.

Help me out here. Do I ignore this and work from where we are?

He will NOT remove her as friend. IMO she should NEVER EVER be there, considering he cheated on me with her. But now she is. It's more important to him to save face than to do what I feel I need.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[sangreal]

Focus on your relationship with him getting the bond stronger and make him focus on only you. Dont even open up a conversation about that other girl. And I think this will make him see something new, and know your importance more.

Hope you have it done.

[Daniell85]

I took the high road so many times. I tried to show some class. Did for long periods.

I found that I have some limits and I don't always recognize them until suddenly I hit them and I get really upset.

I am actually sitting here with a lot of upset churning inside of me. It's pretty bad. Really struggling not to confront him.

[sangreal]

Yes of course. I say give yourself a time. And, if in your relationship the good things far outweigh the negative stuff, do everything it is worth it. I know this has more to do with self respect more than pride ... .however I hope he sees this.

[sangreal]

Well normally, for me betrayal is the only boundary. I have even get a close friend of mine from my life just because he has cheated on his girlfriend. If one person betrays someone, one day or another he will betray everyone too from friends to family. Im brutal at this stuff.

But since we know our partners have a different situation I say give only one more last chance to him.

[1989]

Daniell85,

I think when dealing with a pwBPD, it is important to not TELL them what they can and can't do.  Example:  You shouldn't say to him "Get her off your FB!" but you can say something like "It's up to you to choose to have her as a FB friend and I respect that it is your choice, but it's my right to choose not to reengage with you if you choose to be in contact with her."  That is YOUR boundary.  You aren't telling him what to do, you are giving him a choice.  His choices/decisions have consequences.  The consequence of having her as his friend is not having you as a friend (considering he cheated on you with her).  His choice.

I think people give BPDs far too much power.  Yes, it is very important to validate a BPD.  But it is a VERY big mistake to go against our own values in an attempt to keep them around.  If your boundary is that he not have contact with the woman he cheated on you with, then you need to enforce that boundary.  If he chooses to have her in his life, then he doesn't get to have you.  And if he does choose that, then you need to be okay knowing that he crossed a boundary of yours that has consequences.

The goal should be to have a mutually beneficial relationship.  The goal should not be to hang onto someone.  There does come a time when we must decide if the cost of having a pwBPD in our life outweighs the value of having them in our life.

I know this is the Staying board and I am not suggesting you leave.  I am suggesting you give him a choice in a way that doesn't make it sound like you are making the decision for him.

[Daniell85]

I talked to him directly about it. He denies talking to her 

i told him i know it's his right to make his own choices. I said treating each other with integrity  is important to me. It's actually more important to me that he is honest and above board, than if he is my boyfriend. At least I can trust him, even if I don't like what he is doing.

I had a very strong physical reaction. My teeth were chattering, and I was shaking. I figured at that point it was best to disengage. Panic attack is a bad state to try and talk about much of anything.

He already knows how I feel. Ultimately I am not able to cope, so I am planning to stay distant until he works out that he has to provide better conditions if he wants a relationship. I am not up for the discussion you recommend. I already know it will go badly. For now I will let my absence speak for me.

FWIW, I totally agree with you, 1989.

[1989]

I remembering shivering uncontrollably and chattering teeth!  That's your body telling you this person is dangerous to your well-being.

Silence is golden.  As long as you are getting your point across. 

[formflier]

I talked to him directly about it. He denies talking to her   

So... .what did he say?

What is purpose of having her as a "friend" if there is no communication?

Listen... he realizes this is a big deal to you... .and very likely will use it to "probe" and "jab" at you when he feels off.

In the short run... .better for you guys to keep the temp down in the r/s... .and try to communicate... .build up good memories.

For the long run... .there is a decision you have to make.

Are you going to be with a guy that cheats... .and then maintains contact? 

Note:  Only you can figure this out for you... .there is no right or wrong answer. 

FF

[Daniell85]

I am not ok with it. He seems to believe "peace" between them is important because they still work together some times.

What he seems to keep falling back on is kind of what you said. Let's build up some good memories and feelings and his resistance to "cooperating" will fall and he will want to do what he knows I want/need.


A couple of concerns for me is if I go with status quo, I may not be able to cope. And this is big to me: what if it just looks liked I caved? If he thinks I am "ok" with it, he will just be happy and keep doing it.

I can't predict it for certain, but I am really worried about that. It's really discouraging me to accept his idea and proceed.

On the good side, atm I feel ok about not proceeding right now. I am not constantly in a high panic. So broadly my emotional upset is calming. I really don't want to get back into an agitated state. It plays heck with my life, so damage goes beyond the relationship to my business, my energy levels, emotional well being, and my other important relationships.

Maybe other people could do ok with him. Maybe a ton of the limitations are on my side. All I know anymore is I have to pay close attention to that for my own self.

[formflier]

 

We are not going to be able to tell you what the right decision is.

General guidance... .listen to your feelings. 

Don't make quick decisions...

Talk this through with your T.

Discuss with your T the likelihood that he will change.

Discuss with your T the likelihood that you will change your values.

See where all of that takes you.

FF

 

[Daniell85]

I needed to slow down with him today. I was working up to a major panic attack, so i stopped over here to post and get some insight. It really helped, even if no one else can really tell me what to do, but just remind me i have options and i am not alone.

 thank you

[JohnLove]

On the good side, atm I feel ok about not proceeding right now. I am not constantly in a high panic. So broadly my emotional upset is calming. I really don't want to get back into an agitated state. It plays heck with my life, so damage goes beyond the relationship to my business, my energy levels, emotional well being, and my other important relationships.

Maybe other people could do ok with him. Maybe a ton of the limitations are on my side. All I know anymore is I have to pay close attention to that for my own self.

Hello Daniell85, what you have posted above shows great self-awareness and some pretty good insight into your situation.

I would add to the posters advising you to listen to your feelings to also listen to your intuition. It isn't always easy when a pwBPD is producing FOG that clouds the real issues (pun intended)  

I have heard very similar statements from my SO with BPD and it really is crap and might contain their "truth"... .but I often wonder if it is just manipulation.  

You really don't have to "keep the peace" (whatever that means exactly) with someone. You can be polite, cordial, and professional if you had to have contact for work reasons... .especially with an ex, and what you have described is certainly destructive behaviour toward your relationship.

When I am having problems in my relationship I often refer back to the simple single sentence definition of Borderline Personality Disorder. There is an absolute truth there.

[Daniell85]

Hi John, thanks for your response.

I'm kind of having problems with the situation broadly in that he seems to have had too many women around him that I have gotten triangulated against.

So he and I agreed to open up talking on a regular basis, except... there is too much triangulation for me. I keep feeling like more and more will happen. I don't know at this time if I am just being hyper sensitive or there really is a problem.

Atm, I am hung up on his recreational people. He plays Frisbee on a team, and he has decided to go everyday and practice with 3-4 other people. Sometimes it's just him and a couple of girls, and sometimes it's just him and one girl for an hour or so, then a couple other people come along.

This is outside of the main team practice. He and I went over this before. I am not on board with one on one recreation time spent with other women. He responds to me that he is so "hostile" to me that while he would LOVE to cooperate, he just doesn't FEEL like it. If I make him feel better, then he will gladly do what is being asked.

I call BS on that and have so far refused to talk much because I am so upset about his actions. About to throw in the towel over it. I never dreamed he was like this. EVER.

Pretty sick of the whole situation. Maybe just feeling low over it today.

[unicorn2014]

I just saw this thread. Its so funny you and I are both dealing with deception, albeit a different kind. I guess it depends on what's a deal breaker for you. Cheating's definitely a deal breaker for me. Lying is a deal breaker for somebody else. I guess the question is do you really want to be in a relationship with somebody who doesn't care about your feelings? That's the same question I'm struggling with. Does he tell you he loves you?

[Daniell85]

No, he hasn't lately. He is having a big problem with me enforcing boundaries. He is also upset that I keep getting really upset ( panic attacks) over his actions. Admittedly I have lashed out at him over this stuff.

In the past month or so as I have been getting treatment for PTSD and the panic attacks, I have been able to cut down on big reacting to what he is doing. So he is getting what he asked for from me ( not that I am resistant to overcoming panic attacks and ptsd) and I am getting the usual shell game from him.

I am basically choosing not to engage. ATM, I told him I can't cope with what he is doing, so I am not able to currently able to do what he is asking me to do.

If that is an ineffective course of action, I am open to other ideas I just don't know what else to do, so I am doing what leaves me feeling calmest and gets me through my day.

[unicorn2014]

I think enforcing boundaries and not reacting are excellent courses of action. What boundaries are you trying to force? I'll also reread the thread to get caught up. There are some 12 step recovery groups that help with not reacting. If you're interested PM me and I'll tell you about them. DBT and meditation also help with not reacting.

[Daniell85]

The boundary I was trying to enforce is I can't be present while he has one on one stuff with other women.

Basically no cheating behavior.

Problem is he has the girl he cheated on me with on his social page after kicking her a while back.

And his recreation stuff, he ends up playing with this girl after he promised no one on one stuff.

His explanation for that is he was there, not looking for anyone in particular. She shows up, no one else does. So he stays and plays/practices.

No point in turning around and going home is there when you have a perfectly good person there?

I am getting hung up on this stuff. If I just need a reality check, someone give it to me.

[formflier]

  She shows up, no one else does. So he stays and plays/practices.

No point in turning around and going home is there when you have a perfectly good person there?

He had a choice here.  A choice about values. 

What value choice does it seem that he made?

Just to be clear, we are not talking about just any female.  After promising no "one on one" time with any female he spent one on one time with THE female that he cheated with.

Am I correct in my above statement?

FF

[Daniell85]

He works with the girl he cheated on me with. They have to work together 1-2 times a month.

The girl with the Frisbee practice is a different girl. Casual group that shows up to practice/play. A lot of the people don't go all the time. But when he goes, she is always there. He says he is not going there to play with her (intention) but since she is there, he stays. Part of it may be not being "rude" or losing face. He's big on not looking like a jerk to anyone who has not already experienced that with him. When she is the ONLY other person there. So he stays and plays. That's my issue. Staying and playing one on one.

He thinks I am being stupid to point out to him that if he stays and plays with her, then he is breaking the promise. He says he can't help it if she shows up. He didn't plan it. I told him she is exactly showing up because he is always there and she knows he will be. I told him providing entertainment for her means she will show up.

Am I being weird about this? He told me he is tired of the pointless conversations over these things. He is just living his life.

[Daniell85]

btw, to answer the value question... .

his value is not to not look like a jerk to someone who shouldn't matter all that much to him.

Given the same circumstances, I myself may have a hard time not at least chatting a bit before I left. I would leave, though.

[unicorn2014]

When I am having problems in my relationship I often refer back to the simple single sentence definition of Borderline Personality Disorder. There is an absolute truth there.

Hi, can you tell me what that single sentence definition is? I'm having problems in my relationship right now and could use the help.

[unicorn2014]

He works with the girl he cheated on me with. They have to work together 1-2 times a month.

The girl with the Frisbee practice is a different girl. Casual group that shows up to practice/play. A lot of the people don't go all the time. But when he goes, she is always there. He says he is not going there to play with her (intention) but since she is there, he stays. Part of it may be not being "rude" or losing face. He's big on not looking like a jerk to anyone who has not already experienced that with him. When she is the ONLY other person there. So he stays and plays. That's my issue. Staying and playing one on one.

He thinks I am being stupid to point out to him that if he stays and plays with her, then he is breaking the promise. He says he can't help it if she shows up. He didn't plan it. I told him she is exactly showing up because he is always there and she knows he will be. I told him providing entertainment for her means she will show up.

Am I being weird about this? He told me he is tired of the pointless conversations over these things. He is just living his life.

This last message was really powerful. He doesn't want to look like a jerk to those who don't know him. I think my fiancé has the same problem. He is tired of the pointless conversations? These conversations are you trying to set your boundaries.

I will repeat what I said in a previous message. I would not tolerate cheating. You are also not engaged or married to this man nor living with him. You don't owe him anything. You're not morally or financially obligated to him. . As you can see from my posts it does not get any easier. These people will not get better without treatment and in order for that to happen they have to know they have a problem. Your guy doesn't sound he's promised you anything. May I ask what's in it for you?

[Daniell85]

We have talked about marriage. We were on track for it.

Then he just seemed to blow out everywhere.

What is in it for me? All but engaged, a ring bought but not accepted due to this stuff.

I want to know what happened to the guy I knew for 4 years? Who the heck is this person from the last 2 years?

[unicorn2014]

Daniell, I understand now. My fiancé and I have been engaged since before we met. He pretty much proposed to me first thing. I have the ring but I don't wear it out in public all the time now because I'm tired of answering the question "are you married?" That is a very good question you are asking about new behavior showing up after 2 years. My fiancé was pretty much crazy from the start, but then again so was I. The difference is I am getting better and he is not getting better as fast as me. I noticed you said you have PTSD. My fiancé and I do too, however he won't admit to having the BPD. He thinks ptsd is his only problem. I should say he will admit to having borderline traits when he dysregulates, but otherwise he's fine, if you know what I mean.

Why do you think he changed after 2 years? And that is a very good question to ask yourself, do I want to be married to this? In my case I'm a single parent and I really do need a partner so my incentive to be in a relationship is a lot higher. I was single for 7 years before I met my fiancé and that was hard. It is a lot easier having a partner as a parent which is why I'm hoping we can work through our difficulties so things can work out.

What is your incentive for staying with your boyfriend?

[Daniell85]

Love. Just love.