The Case of the Flying Books

[flourdust]

Is it considered domestic violence if the books that hit me are paperbacks?

Let's rewind. The players are myself, the dBPDwife, and D10. The issue is D10's exposure to lots of Very Bad BPD Behavior -- screaming, browbeating, name calling, threats of suicide, parental alienation, threats to abandon the family. My solution was to buy two well-reviewed books for kids about BPD -- The Weather House and An Umbrella for Alex. I did this on the down low, so I could give D10 some tools and have an age-appropriate discussion with her about what was happening in our house.

I figured the secret wouldn't keep forever, and it didn't. Wife found out a few days ago and hit the roof. This came up in our MC session yesterday. I knew it was coming. I even brought the books to share.

The books feature a BPD mother demonstrating typical BPD behaviors from the POV of elementary age children. Wife views this as the mother -- her -- being painted black. I stood my ground and said I made this decision to help D10, I did it in secrecy because BPDw has a "boundary" that we don't discuss her illness with D10, and I did it in full knowledge that she would disapprove. She was furious, said the marriage was over, threw the books across the room at me, and stormed out of MC.

The MC admits to me that what is going on with us is beyond his ability to help.

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[Notwendy]

It was the cilantro that threw them, so it isn't DV. However, you can press charges against the cilantro.

Sorry, could not resist that one.

[Notwendy]

I am sorry this is happening. I witnessed similar behaviors from my BPD mom growing up, at this age too. It was scary. I think it is a good thing that you are up front with your kids. I wish my father had explained it as a mental illness instead of leaving us to wonder. At age 10, kids are old enough to know this isn't appropriate behavior.

My mother would have reacted in the same way. If we dared to say anything that implied that she was not normal and not a wonderful mother, it would have triggered a big dysregulation, and she would have enlisted Dad to defend her against her "horrible children" ( think drama triangle). Then we'd have both parents angry at us.

Your wife probably saw this as triangulating, you getting the kids against her. This isn't what happened, but I think it is how she would see it.

[Moselle]

Flourdust,

That's a tough situation. Sorry you're being exposed to that.    

It will blow over. Mine did a similar thing when she found my copy of "Stop caretaking the Borderline". In two days she was onto a new issue.

These situations are extremely stressful. Have you got any safe ways to blow off some of your own steam and get some perspective ?

I battle with a similar dilemma. How do I educate my children? I don't have an answer. Perhaps to work through a therapist, and let the therapist recommend the literature. Have any of the senior members discovered a successful way to do it?

It's sounds like she is diagnosed. Is it out in the open?

[flourdust]

It was the cilantro that threw them, so it isn't DV. However, you can press charges against the cilantro.

Sorry, could not resist that one.

Karpman's little known Drama Square features the Victim, Rescuer, Persecutor, and Cilantro. Damn that cilantro!

[sweetheart]

I understand that you are not really posting about your daughter, but reading your post it is to her that my attention falls. I am wondering how much of the extremes of your w's dysregulated behaviours is your d10 directly and/or indirectly being exposed to?

It is absolutely the right thing to do to discuss with your d about her mothers mental illness, books can be a great idea. However If books are too visible there are lots of age appropriate resources about children dealing with mentally ill parents online. Youtube also has videos that might help, you could watch together. Teaching your d how to keep herself emotionally safe when her mother dysregulates would be v important for her.

Does your d have her own T?

Here is a useful link about young children who have a parent with BPD

https://bpdfamily.com/content/have-your-parents-put-you-risk-psychopathology


Given that your MC has said this is beyond their control, where else does your w get support?

Where do you go from here?

[flourdust]

I understand that you are not really posting about your daughter, but reading your post it is to her that my attention falls. I am wondering how much of the extremes of your w's dysregulated behaviours is your d10 directly and/or indirectly being exposed to?

Far too much, I think. Lots of screaming in front of her -- calling me names, threatening suicide, threatening to leave, threatening divorce.

Exploding at D10, calling her names ("liar" is a favorite), interrogating her, getting in her face when she tries to take a break. Storming out of the house and driving away. Using D10 as therapist. Trying to alienate D10 against me. And probably more.

It is absolutely the right thing to do to discuss with your d about her mothers mental illness, books can be a great idea. However If books are too visible there are lots of age appropriate resources about children dealing with mentally ill parents online. Youtube also has videos that might help, you could watch together. Teaching your d how to keep herself emotionally safe when her mother dysregulates would be v important for her.

Does your d have her own T?

I hadn't thought of YouTube videos -- any recommendations?

D10 does have her own T. Her T is aware that her mom has BPD, and we've even had a family session with her T to discuss fears of divorce and a safety plan when mom loses it.

Given that your MC has said this is beyond their control, where else does your w get support?

Another excellent question. We had a family consultation with her DBT counselor and therapist. I raised the issue that she views me as her emotional support (and a bad one, because I'm withdrawing to protect myself when 90% of her emotional problems she's attributing to me). Her therapists agree that it's a bad idea to have just one person for emotional support and she needs to broaden her support community. She leans on her mom a lot, too, but mom also gets painted black when she can't take it any more or says some truths to my wife. The wife is highly extroverted and gregarious, but most of her friendships are superficial and she says she's not close enough to anyone to use for support.

Where do you go from here?

That is an excellent question.

[sweetheart]

This is a good resource with video links to youtube and information directed at the child and the parent.

www.copmi.net.au/kids-young-people

It's Australian, but I'm in the UK.

I'll see if I can remember what else I used with my son8.

Minimising your d10's exposure is important as well as equipping her with the tools to extricate herself from her mums dysregulations.

My son is linked in to a local Young Carers organisation that provides support and fun activities after school and in the holidays for children whose parents have mental illness. Again I am in the UK.

Use your d's T as someone who can signpost you to local resources. When my h was at his worst, I structured my sons time so he had minimal exposure to dysregulations and ran interference at every given opportunity. My son and I had a 'safe phrase' to use that meant he was to go to his room, put headphones on, shut his door and watch a film.

I involved extended family wherever possible so that our son got fun times even when his father was at his most unwell.

If his father had not improved I would have left, because I did not want this way of life long term for our son.

[daughterandmom]

flourdust,

I have to say that in a difficult situation, I really appreciate how you can keep your sense of humor. Your daughter is lucky to have you 

[Cat Familiar]

I'm glad you didn't buy the hardback editions!    I think you're doing a great service for your daughter. As a daughter of a BPD mother, it was terribly confusing to deal with her wrath and then her clinginess. Sorry that you're in such a difficult situation. I love your sense of humor.   

[daughterandmom]

I am going to second Cat Familiar-

Growing up with a severely disordered mother also, I agree with the feeling of confusion surrounding the wrath and then the clinginess. And then the hysterical crying. And the worst thing my father did was NOTHING. This just reaffirmed my feeling that I was to blame and/or it was just my perception that things were not normal.

You are not doing this. Being there for your daughter means so much. It's going to make all the difference.

[Notwendy]

I too would like to chime in to encourage you to validate the truth for your daughter. I can also address the idea of feeling like I was to blame for my mother's behavior and the impact it had on me.

Kids are magical thinkers. If their parents get divorced, the naturally think it is their fault and something they can fix. ( think Parent Trap). In all reality,it has nothing to do with the kids, but they think it anyway.

My parents stayed together, but I witnessed many events like the ones you described. In addition, I was expected to keep them secret.  Neither of my parents validated my perception. If I asked my mother why she did these things, her reply to me was that it was because I was such a horrible child.


Years later, when my father got sick, I went to stay with my parents  to help. While he was in the hospital, I was alone with my mother for the longest time I had ever been since high school. I didn't know about BPD at the time. As would be expected, the stress of my father being seriously ill triggered her and she dysregulated constantly, raging at me. This time though, I knew better. I was now a mother. There was no way I would have even considered this being my child's fault, and I knew that this was not normal.

Counseling helped me come to terms with the fact that my father did the best he could with what he had, in an era where there was no information about BPD. He loved my mother and also knew that I was stronger than her, and would be OK. Yet, to me my father was the stable, reliable parent and I loved him, and the loss of him which also meant the loss of my hope for his validation was devastating.

I'm OK now. I tell my story to you because, you have the chance to give this to your D. And I can tell you that, at her age, and even my age, my Daddy is my hero, the one I looked up to, and I know this is who you are to your D.

[waverider]

I am going to second Cat Familiar-

Growing up with a severely disordered mother also, I agree with the feeling of confusion surrounding the wrath and then the clinginess. And then the hysterical crying. And the worst thing my father did was NOTHING. This just reaffirmed my feeling that I was to blame and/or it was just my perception that things were not normal.

You are not doing this. Being there for your daughter means so much. It's going to make all the difference.

The difficulties many partners face when they have no knowledge of BPD and the coping skills is that there is nothing they can do, everything they think might help seems to make it worse, hence they end up defaulting to doing nothing. Especially in the days before internet research there was next to no way to find these things out, so you have cut a little slack to the non parent. This leads to the "lets pretend there is nothing wrong" approach as they can't even explain it let alone deal with it. Stuck in survival mode

[babyducks]

Hi flourdust,

Is it considered domestic violence if the books that hit me are paperbacks?

I know you were (perhaps) being flippant here but I am going to say,   Yes, from my admittedly not expert opinion throwing things at you is abusive and violent.  :)oesn't matter what they are.

This quote is from here https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=61403.0

and talks about the Duluth Model.   It's a long cut and paste but I think it's worth reading in it's entirety.

If you recognize these behaviours as part of your life, please get some help.   If you recognize them in someone you know, talk to them and help... .many women (victims) out there are silently crying for help!

Please note: that in most cases I have referred to the victim as a woman and the abuser as a man for easier explanation.


PHYSICAL ABUSE

- any unwanted physcial attention

- kicking, punching, pushing, pulling, slapping, hitting, shaking

- cutting, burning

- pulling hair

- squeezing hand, twisting arm

- choking, smothering

- throwing victim, or throwing things at victim

- restraining, tying victim up

- forced feeding

- hitting victim with objects

- knifing, shooting

- threatening to kill or injure victim

- ignoring victim's illness or injury

- denying victim needs (eg. food, drink, bathroom, medication etc.)

- hiding necessary needs

- pressuring or tricking victim into something unwanted

- standing too close or using intimidation

- making or carrying out threats to hurt victim

-making her (victim) afraid by suing looks, gestures or actions

- smashing things

- abusing pets

- display of weapons as a means of intimidation


SEXUAL ABUSE

- any unwanted sexual contact

- forcing her to have sex, harrassing her for sex

- forcing her to have sex with animals

- uttering threats to obtain sex

- pinching, slapping, grabbing, poking her breasts or genitals

- forcing sex when sick, childbirth or operation

- forcing her to have sex with other men or women

- forcing her to watch or participate in group sex

- knowingly transmitting sexual disease

- treating her as a sex object

- being "rough"

- pressuring her to pose for pornogrpahic photos

- displaying pornography that makes her uncomfortable

- using sex as a basis for an argument

- using sex as a solution to an argument

- criticising her sexual ability

- unwanted fondling in public

- accusation of affairs

- threatening to have sex with someone else if she doesn't give sex

- degrading her body parts

- sexual jokes

- demanding sex for payment or trade

- insisting on checking her body for sexual contact


EMOTIONAL ABUSE

Also called "Psychological or Verbal Abuse"

- false accusations

- name calling and finding fault

- verbal threats

- playing "mind games"

- making victim think she/he is stupid, or crazy

- humiliating victim

- overpowering victim's emotions

- disbelieving victim

- bringing up past issues

- inappropriate expressionof jealousy

- degrading victim

- putting victim down, not defending her

- blame the victim for things

- turning the situation against the victim

- laughing in victim's face

- silence, ignoring victim

- refusing to do things with or for victim

- always getting own way

- neglecting victim

- pressuring victim

- expecting victim to conform to a role

- comparing victim to others

- suggested involvement with other women or men

- making victim feel guilty

- using certain mannerisms or behaviour as a means of control (eg. snapping fingers, pointing)

- threatening to get drunk or stoned unles... .

- manipulation

- starting arguments

- withholding affection

- holding grudges and not really forgiving

- lying

- threatening to leave or commit suicide

- treating victim as a child

- having double standards for victim

- saying one thing and meaning another

- denying or taking away victim's responsibilities

- not keeping committments

- insisting on accompanying victim to the doctor's office

- deliberately creating a mess for victim to clean

- preventing victim from getting or taking a job

- threatening her with anything (words, objects)

- refusing to deal with issues

- minimising or disregarding victim's work or accomplishments

- demanding an account of victim's time/routine

- taking advantage of victim's fear of something

- making her do illegal things

DURING PREGNANCY AND CHILBIRTH

- forcing her to have an abortion

- denying that the child is his

- insulting her body

- refusing to support her during and after pregnancy

- refusing sex because her pregnant body is ugly

- demanding or pressuring her for sex after childbirth

- blaming her that the baby is the "wrong sex"

- refusing to allow her to breastfeed


FINANCIAL ABUSE

- taking victim's money

- withholding money

- not allowing victim money

- giving victim an allowance

- keeping family finances a secret

- spending money foolishly

- pressuring victim to take full responsibility for finances

-not paying fair share of bills

- not spending money of special occasions when able (birthdays etc)

spending on addictions, gambling, sexual services

- not letting victim have access to family income


SOCIAL ABUSE

- controlling what victim does, who victim sees, talks to, what victim reads and where victim goes

- put downs or ignores victim in public

- not allowing victim to see or access to family and friends

- change of personality when around others (abuser)

- being rude to victim's friends or family

- dictating victim's dress and behaviour

- choosing victim's friends

- choosing friends, activities or work rather being with victim

- making a "scene" in public

- making victim account for themselves

- censoring victim's mail

- treating victim like a servant

- not giving victim space or privacy

USING CHILDREN

- assaulting victim in front of the children

- making victim stay at home with the children

- teaching children to abuse victim through name calling, hitting etc

- embarrassing victim in front of the children

- not sharing responsibility for children

- threatening to abduct children, or telling victim they will never get custody

- puttin down victim's parenting ability

DURING SEPARATION/DIVORCE

- buying off children with expensive gifts

- not showing up on time for visitation or returning them on time

- pumping children for information on victim's partners etc

- telling children that victim is responsible for breaking up the family

- using children to transport messages

- denying victim access to the children

USING RELIGION

- using scripture to justify or dominance

- using church position to pressure for sex or favours

- using victim, then demanding forgiveness

- interpresting religion or scripture your way

- preventing victim from attending church

- mocking victim's belief's

- requiring sex acts or drugs for religious acts


ENVIRONMENTAL ABUSE

ABUSE IN THE HOME

- locking victim in or out

- throwing out or destroying victim's possessions

- harming pets

- slamming doors

- throwing objects

- taking phones and denying victim access to the phone

ABUSE IN THE VEHICLE

- deliberately driving too fast or recklessly to scare victim

- driving while intoxicated

- forcing victim out of the vehicle (when angry)

- pushing victim out of the vehicle when it is inmotion

- threatening to kill victim by driving toward an oncoming car

- chasing or hitting victim with a vehicle

- killing victim in a deliberate accident

- denying her use of the vehicle by tampering with engine, chaining steering wheel or taking the keys


RITUAL ABUSE

- mutilation

- animal mutilation

- forced cannibalism

- human sacrifices

- suggesting or promoting suicide

- forcing victim to participate in rituals or to witness rituals

I think that many of our relationships have had or do have aspects of abuse to them.   I remember when I first read that list, I found more than I thought I would.   It kind of rocked me back on my heels.    

It appears to me that when abuse and violence start to come into play our boundaries have to ratchet up and become rock solid.    

flourdust, how does your boundary look around this?   Have you been able to formulate one yet?

'ducks

[Euler2718]

Noo! If you disallow everything in that list, what's left? Just kidding.

That is quite a list, though. My exBPDgf's actions were probably quite minor, but they are on the list. It's hard to figure out, maybe, because we minimize.

I did let her change the way I dress and she did mock my religious beliefs once near the end, and she was *always* threatening to leave. What's worse, sometimes when she did that, there was some sort of superior, arrogant, mocking type tone in it -- confusing because I also know she was jealous and posessive, which is the opposite side of the coin.

As far as throwing books, from what I remember, it would be called "symbolic violence" -- in the escalating abuse, they first do something like this before going deeper (i.e., abusing your physical person). The image in my head is someone punching a whole in the wall with their fist. What they're really saying, perhaps is, "This could be you (next)"

[Notwendy]

I am going to second Cat Familiar-

Growing up with a severely disordered mother also, I agree with the feeling of confusion surrounding the wrath and then the clinginess. And then the hysterical crying. And the worst thing my father did was NOTHING. This just reaffirmed my feeling that I was to blame and/or it was just my perception that things were not normal.

You are not doing this. Being there for your daughter means so much. It's going to make all the difference.

The difficulties many partners face when they have no knowledge of BPD and the coping skills is that there is nothing they can do, everything they think might help seems to make it worse, hence they end up defaulting to doing nothing. Especially in the days before internet research there was next to no way to find these things out, so you have cut a little slack to the non parent. This leads to the "lets pretend there is nothing wrong" approach as they can't even explain it let alone deal with it. Stuck in survival mode

I recognize that this is the best my father could have done in his era. There was no information or help for families with a BPD parent- I don't think BPD was even a diagnosis. I think the obvious was recognized- someone who was hallucinating or clearly mentally ill. Then there was neurosis.  The paradox with my mother was, when she was not dysregulating, she was charming, beautiful, and rational. But the dysregulations were serious. Sometimes when she was acting OK, it would seem as if they were a bad dream. It is very understandable that the best my father could do was to try to keep these episodes at a minimum if he could. If she even got wind that we thought anything but "nothing wrong" it could cause her to dysregulate. The best we could do was carry on as if all was OK.

However, by my teens it was pretty obvious all was not OK. I would have appreciated my father assuring me that it wasn't my fault and that my perceptions were accurate.

[flourdust]

Thank you for the feedback and very interesting discussion.

My daughter's getting better at enforcing her own boundaries. At lunch today, my wife started going off on me, and when I wasn't taking it, she turned to our daughter and began complaining about me to her. Very evenly, D10 said "This isn't about me. Please leave me out of it."

Later, I told her I was really proud of her for that. She's a strong kid.

As for the violence issue ... .it's really very infrequent. I'm not too worried about it at this point. I am being very careful with my behavior, because I think she may have a half-baked strategy to try to get me to be violent so she can have "evidence" against me of some kind. Fortunately, I'm not a violent person.

[waverider]

However, by my teens it was pretty obvious all was not OK. I would have appreciated my father assuring me that it wasn't my fault and that my perceptions were accurate.

Problem is by then he has been conditioned to this as normal. As a growing adult you are becoming increasingly aware and exposed to life outside the home and it is becoming increasinglyobvious this is not normal. You are developing different realities to your father, this confuses you as you were originally on the same page, now you are starting to turn pages. You feel like the odd one out and hence the trigger.

[Notwendy]

That was tough for me, WW. My father was the one stable parent I had. I was my mother's black child, and by my teens, I disliked her and I adored my father. They were a package deal. So, in order to get my father's approval and feel safe in my family, I had to go along with him. So I was pulled between the two realities.

For flourdust, it is good that your D has strong boundaries.