Our Daughter

[Jock]

Our son died of Leukaemia just before he was 9 and out daughter was 7 at the time. When she turned 13 we began having real problems with her behavior which was an absolute nightmare and their were major anger issues. A suicide attempt followed at around 15 (although how serious it was we don't know but it involved cutting, tablets and then shouting for me in the middle of the night). She was then referred to the mental health team locally but to be honest that was a waste of time and it was only after another incident that she was seen by a consultant and eventually diagnosed with BPD when she was 17. We had never heard of it before but as soon as we read the symptoms it was tick, tick, tick and we had often even used the expression " we are walking on egg shells all the time". She has been on STEPS which definitely helped massively although there have still been incidents including a knock on the door at 3am by the police as search parties were looking for her after a friend had reported her missing and suicidal (we thought she was at the friend/relatives house). This was about 5 months ago and since then things had been so much better. She is now 19 has a steady job which she is holding down, is dealing with issues as they arise etc. However once again there has been a major blow out and we are back to square one and it feels that we are just going round in circles. We also feel completely alone with nowhere to turn to advice on how to deal with the verbal abuse, punching of walls, complete lack of reason, the contradictions and complete lack of consideration for us as her parents. It feels like we just give, give give whilst she takes, takes, takes but feel she has us over a barrel. We have decided to try and take our own lives back but it really is just so hard. I don't know what else to say but it feels better just typing all that out.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Jock]

p.s. I should have said that I could type so much more but just wanted to make a quick introduction on the forum.

[Huat]

Welcome Jock!

First of all, my heart goes out to you.  I can only imagine how devastating it was for you and the rest of your family when your precious, young son died from leukemia.  Nothing can compare to that kind of heartache.

I am sorry, too, to read of the problems you are having in regards to your daughter.  One good thing is that she has received a diagnosis.  You are not having to grope in the darkness because you know what "IT" is.  Encouraging to read that she is holding down a job and has shown the ability of "dealing with issues as they arise."

"Walking on eggshells"... ."a roller-coaster ride"... .two expressions that are so fitting when it describes life with someone who has BPD (or shows symptoms of BPD).  All of us on this forum can attest to that.  The thing is, our hands are not tied.  There is so much information available now that the disorder has been recognized as a legitimate mental illness.  This website abounds with that information while offering links to more.

How wise of you when you write... ."we have decided to try to take our own lives back"!  Good for you... .do it!  That, Jock is half the battle.  It will be a work-in-progress... .not always easy but benefits will come along the way.  We have to learn to look after ourselves first.  Only then can we better deal with others.

As hard as it may be for her having this illness, your daughter is capable of making choices.  Verbal abuse, etc. are not acceptable choices.  You set your boundaries.  Know which ones are negotiable... .know which ones aren't.

Another quote from you... ."it feels better just typing all that out... ."  I'm glad.  Your sharing does help others and, in the long run, we do help each other.

[Jock]

Just a quick reply for now but thank you Huat your reply really does mean a lot and I will try and make a proper reply tomorrow.

[incadove]

Hi Jock!  I wanted to join Huat in welcoming you, and no worries about when you can reply.  We are here to support each other through this journey!

About the feeling of being 'over a barrel', I very much agree with Huat

As hard as it may be for her having this illness, your daughter is capable of making choices.  Verbal abuse, etc. are not acceptable choices.  You set your boundaries.  Know which ones are negotiable... .know which ones aren't.

In fact, it is probably healthy for her as you start to calmly set boundaries and also to communicate with her, non-judgementally, about how her behavior is affecting you and making you feel.  There is a good resource under Tools on this site about FOG talking about how to take control of your own responses and not allow yourself to be controlled.  I think it also mentions, that often the BPD sufferer is so wrapped up in their fear and need, that they are not even really aware of how they are affecting others. 

Good luck and I will try to write more soon, in a hurry but I wanted to say hi!

[Jock]

Thanks incadove for your words of support and I will be sure to read the tools (I have read a few)... .okay I am going to start typing and I am not really sure where I am going to go with this but here goes... .the latest blow out started last Wednesday when we tried to lay some perfectly reasonable boundaries and very loose ground rules in a very quiet reasonable way and it turned into a huge blow out. She said pretty horrendous things including making it quite clear by things she said that she has said some terrible lies etc. to doctors about me and my wife where as in reality we couldn't have done anymore for her either in childhood or support since diagnosis (just a few weeks ago she said to me that I have taken her everywhere from the Egypt, the zoo and the local mental health hospital (which she named) and we both started laughing) and i just felt I was done and could do no more to help her.
Since then she there hasn't been an ounce of contrition but everything is our fault and she has been ready to vent at her mum at every opportunity. It reached a head this afternoon when my wife told me that she couldn't drive as she was so stressed out she nearly caused an accident. I texted our daughter to find out what time she was working tomorrow in case I couldn't give her a lift to work and she would have to make another arrangement. This led to another blow out and I had to go on the phone to explain I wasn't having a go but just being practical. It escalated and I could then hear her (via the phone) shouting at her mum until eventually she hung up. My wife then phoned me and all she could hear was our daughter annihilating us to someone over the phone so she went out to the car. Her voice was getting more and more despairing (she was diagnosed with depression a couple of years after our son dies but it is under control with a low dose of medication). and more and more upset. By now I was in my car driving home from work as I had to be there. Eventually she was crying so hard she said I am done and the phone went down. I tried and tried to phone as I drove but no reply but eventually she answered but said it didn't matter where she was. I phoned the police as I was so worried and new she had gone out in the car. They found her but she had been in the sea and only came out as a couple had been walking and shouted at her. She was walking out of the sea but got in to her car to drive away but thankfully the police stopped her. They phoned me and then I phoned my mum to say the our daughter couldn't be in the house and my sister would need to pick her up. My wife is thankfully now home and safe but we have nothing else to give as support as we have done everything we could (believe it or not we are just back from a holiday in Greece and apart from a few issues in the first couple of days it was great) and now the only person who can help is herself. She is staying at my mums tonight and sisters tomorrow but there is no way she can come to live at home as things stand as my wife really was going to walk in to the sea this afternoon. Well not sure what else to say but that is where we are at right now. Needless to say I have never been so scared as I was this afternoon as I drove home trying to get in touch with my wife and then waiting for the police to phone me.

[MomMae]

Oh my gosh, Jock, I am so, so very sorry for everything that your family has been through and continues to endure.  I do not feel in the least bit qualified to offer much in the way of advice, but I just wanted you to know that I have read your post and had to reply with something just so you know you are being heard by people who understand and care very, very much.

If I were to offer any advice, it is that, in my opinion, you have done the right thing by insisting, at this point, that your daughter needs to leave the house.  Indeed, you and your wife need to put yourselves first.  And that includes you, Jock - you must take care of yourself, too, or you will quickly burn out.  When the dust settles, you and your wife will be able to formulate a plan going forward. 

I know when I was in the depths of despair over my own BPD dd20, one of the best pieces of advice I received was to not be the victim.  At first I didn't understand, and maybe even resented it a bit, because, hey, I was very hurt by her terrible behaviour and words.  But then I saw the wisdom in those words.  At first maybe I still felt like a victim and just acted like I wasn't, but then I noticed that this new found detachment put the ball in my daughter's court.  If she screwed up, it was on her, done by her, not a reflection on me. 

The tools and people on this site are invaluable in navigating this confounding illness.  Your wife may also find it helpful to reach out on this site.  She probably feels very isolated and maybe even ashamed at the behaviour of your daughter.  Finding this site was my turning point when I saw that my reactions and feelings to what was happening in our family were perfectly natural. I remember the first day reading posts on here that literally could have been written by me.  I printed one of them and handed it to my husband, saying "I didn't write this... ."  After he read it, he just looked up at me in amazement - - this very long post by a total stranger not only described what could have been our daughter, but the writer's reactions and emotions were an echo of my own. 

You are in terrible pain and turmoil right now, as is your wife, but things can improve.  My relationship with my daughter has improved.  It will likely never fully be the relationship I would like it to be, and her achievements in life may not be what we dreamed of, but I now realize that is okay.  I cannot control things I cannot control. 

I hope that you keep posting.  There are wonderful people here who all understand the pain you are feeling because we have all been there in one form or another.  Please feel my deepest empathy coming to you.   

MomMae

 

[Jock]

Thank you MomMae for your reply (it brought a tear to my eye in a good way). I told my wife about this forum yesterday and again encouraged her tonight that as soon as she is up to it then she should read more of the forum (she has read a few posts including my first post) and also join for support and advice.

[Jock]

Here is an update and looking for some advice... .I sent this to this morning via messenger and it is pretty self explanatory (I would have preferred to have talked to her although that probably would have resulted in going round in circles and another blow out)... .

I didn't know if I was taking you to work this morning or not and if I was I would have said this in person rather than by message.

I will try and put this as clearly as I can. You have made it clear that you don't care about us, will do what you want and not accept any boundaries. Under these circumstances you cannot live at home as it just isn't working. If a couple hadn't been walking along the shore yesterday and shouted at mum to get out of the sea and then if the Police hadn't have found her so quickly after I had phoned them (by luck they were driving along the shore road to look for her) then she wouldn't be here today. That is not being dramatic but simply a fact. I know you think that it has nothing to do with you and if you believe that then that is fine. We both love you but we have done everything we possibly can to support you and until you are prepared to accept that there are boundaries when it comes to verbal abuse, punching walls etc. as well as very basic house rules then you have left us with no choice. After you doing so well in dealing with BPD lately I don't know what has changed and perhaps would do need to go back on the STEPS course or at the very minimum read all the information and course notes you have.

This message is not to have a go but simply to state as clearly as I can how things stand.

She then phoned me on her lunch break and said she didn't want to reply by text and then proceeded to give the kind of response we expected before hanging up. The phone went again 5 minutes later with a "I don't understand your message are you kicking me out or not" to which I replied "read the message it is there in black in white" to which she replied with the same "are you kicking me out yes or no as I don't understand the message " I repeated my answer and the same response back and fro about six times before she said "I need to know if I need to buy a flat (not that she could) or what" to which I said "as things stand yes you need to find somewhere else to stay" "fine thanks so you are kicking me out" and hung up. I texted to say "I did not say you are kicked out, everything is in the message and if you don't understand it get someone like your aunt of granny to read it and then explain it to you".
I then get a text an hour and a half later when I presume she was on a break to say "thank you for not kicking me out. I will stay in the boundaries". That is where we are at right now and I haven't replied yet as I haven't worked out what to put. I do know that she can't come back to the house over the next two or three days whilst my wife (who is now reading sections of the website and forum) gets her inner strength back.
Any advice or support would be very much appreciated.

[Huat]

Hello again, Jock!

I totally support you and your wife as you work to get your lives back on track!  I am glad to read that you have other family members who are supportive... .able to give you some respite.

I can relate to your wife emotions... .remember back when I questioned if my life was worth living... .all because I had given that much power to my daughter.  I had to learn how to take back that power.  It is a work-in-progress and I pat myself on the back because of the progress I have made.  I had to work my way from being sad... .to being mad... .then I was able to make positive changes.

There have been a couple of times when my husband and I have gone to counselling... .for us... .to get us back on track in dealing with life... .dealing with our daughter.  It can be so validating to sit with someone, have them listen and help guide.   Have you considered that for yourselves?   

MomMae passed along... ."one of the best pieces of advice I received was NOT to be a victim."  So, so true!  Bullies (and your daughter is being a bully!) pick up on that attitude quickly and it just adds fuel to their fire.

It must take forever and a day to get over the loss of a child.  I am so sorry that happened to you.  Somehow you both found the strength to carry on.  That strength is within you still as you deal with your daughter and take back control.

Know that we are listening, Jock. 

[MomMae]

Wow, Jock, your head must be spinning.  You have a lot going on.

I think that it is a good sign that you are still able to have communication with your daughter.  You are doing well.  

I agree that a cooling off period for all of you of several days is a good idea.  I assume that she is able to stay somewhere safe like at her grandmother's or aunt's place.

I am just going to throw out what would probably be my way of handling things, with my daughter.  Not expert advice, just from one parent who has been there to another.  All of our situations are unique, as are our families and how they work, so please take my advice with a grain of salt!

My suggestion, would be for you and your wife to come up with and write down some very simple house rules that you all live by.  It may include things such going to work, (it is great that she has a steady job!) picking up after yourself, letting other family members know where you are and when you'll be home, no drug use, no abusive language, take meds, go to therapy, etc.  Whatever rules you and your wife need to live peacefully, keeping in mind that she is 19 and likely wants some independence.  I would also think about what may be your part, if any, in any triggers to her meltdowns.  These triggers might be perfectly normal parenting behaviour on your part, but too much for your likely highly sensitive BPD daughter.  I know for my own daughter, 20,  even me offering solutions to her problems can be a trigger.  Not too long ago, my BPD dd was talking about returning to college for ECE, but said she couldn't afford it this year.  Try to be helpful, I overzealously offered numerous solutions such as student loans, us paying for it, studying part time... .she continually shot them down and was becoming agitated to the point of crying and then just shut down.  Instead of doing as I usually would and defensively saying I was only trying to help, I shut up.  Later, I apologized for pushing my suggestions on her and she responded positively. I realized that I overwhelm her when I push too much.  I have learned to step back and let her lead.  It is not my nature, and it is not easy, nor is it how I parent my other two non-BPD young adult children, but it is what works best with BPD dd.

I would maybe send her a simple text telling her that you appreciate that she is agreeing to boundaries and that she can return in a few days.  Let her know that there will be some very simple house rules in place that are respectful to all of you that will be discussed prior to her return.

Maybe it would be a good idea to meet for lunch at a restaurant or other neutral ground where you can present and discuss the rules factually, without emotions coming into it.  There is no need to rehash what has already taken place, this is about moving forward.  Hopefully, she will agree to your boundaries and you can decide when she will return home.  She should also know the consequences of not living within the boundaries.  Those consequences could ultimately be that she needs to leave the family home.

I hope you and your wife are doing a little better today.  I know from experience that it can take a substantial amount of time to recover from the type of emotional blow out you have experienced.  

Please continue to reach out on this site, Jock.  You are not alone.    MM

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[mom2ela]

I wish that I had any advice or suggestions for you. It is almost the same story as our son. We are not able to live with him anymore. He turns 18 in just a few days. He has told us that he never has and never will follow our rules. We have locks on our doors and he is not allowed to be home without someone present. We are taking our lives back as well. However, as a parent that is such a difficult thing to do!
Know that you are not alone.

[Jock]

Thanks for the replies and I will answer properly in more detail when I can think a little clearer.
It is great that my mum has been able to help out with somewhere to stay (and has done so in the past) and I am not posting this as a complaint but only because I think it may be helpful to others and also others may well have faced the same.
The support is there right now as there has been a crisis but to be honest generally speaking we are on our own in dealing with BPD. As much as you try to explain other family members just don't understand the severity of the illness or what it is like to have to deal with (and I mean for the person with BPD to deal with the illness (as having must be horrendous) as well as the parents). They really have no idea of just what a "blow out" is actually like nor just what actually happens with the twisting of things that have been said, events that didn't take place or certainly not the way they are portrayed, the level of verbal abuse as well as punching of walls etc. I also think/know that they put a lot of it down to being a "stroppy teenager" although after this week my mum has a far greater understanding as I have tried even harder to explain.
I have also given my mum the link to BPD Central and she is going to read as much as she can as well as advice for grandparents.
As I said I am not writing this to complain as for anyone outside of our four walls to understand must be almost impossible but I wanted to share our experience.

[Jock]

Just another update... .she sent me a text yesterday saying that she needed some things from the house and did I want her to send me a list or would she come round. I replied to say to come round as I would forget something (trying to keep it light and I added a x). She came round got her things and then took our youngest dog (still a puppy really) for a walk. One of our favourite bands is playing a farewell concert next year and there was a pre-sale on Wednesday and I managed to get 4 tickets as well as a 2 bedroom apartment for two nights as I have no idea where we will be next year but also knew the concert would sell out fast (and it has). My mum then told me that our daughter had been trying to get tickets as well as camping tickets so I texted her to ask if she had managed to get any. She hadn't but asked if I had got mine so I replied yes I got 4. So after a few texts she phoned me to ask about prices details etc. and then when she came back from the walk I met her in the kitchen and told her the details and she said she would get back to me. Later that day she did and said her and her cousin want to come and will pay for their tickets and 1/4 of the apartment costs.
She is staying at my sisters until Sunday and between then I am going to go over the boundaries/house rules. We are going to keep them very basic and consistent with what we have said before and not use this as a way of adding more rules. They will just be no verbal abuse (we don't mean no arguments or raised voices as that is life but I am sure you will know what I mean), no violent abuse i.e. punching walls, throwing things etc. home by 1am (unless it is a one off and is agreed and prearranged with us and not a week day when we are working the next day) and asking us if it is okay for someone to come round to the house (sometimes we just want the house to ourselves and may say no not tonight if that was the case). I will also make it clear that this is one last chance. That is really it and we both think that they are totally reasonable.

We are also looking for a bit of advice when there is a blow out and your daughter/son actually lives in the house and the blow out is taking place in the house. What do you do when the verbal abuse is constant over a long period and when you walk away you are followed or when you go in to another room within a minute the door opens and it starts again?

[MomMae]

Hi Jock,
It sounds like things are settling down and you are doing well to decide what you can and cannot tolerate.

As much as you try to explain other family members just don't understand the severity of the illness or what it is like to have to deal with

Your above quote is just so very true and, personally, what I find to be one of the hardest aspects of coping with a child with BPD.  My mom was the same as yours, somewhat trying to justify my daughter's behaviours.  She made me feel like I was exaggerating and I could here her skepticism.  DD seemed so sweet, calm and normal when grandma saw her.  Not until last summer (2016) when DD, then 19, met a stranger on the internet and was going to move out with him (she'd literally known him for a couple days) did my mother see what it was truly like.  At that point, my daughter had us painted black and she made it clear there was no way, no matter what, that she was staying with us.  She was also just weeks away of completing her practicum for practical nursing and was going to throw it all away to move in with this man (he was also 12 years older than her).  He lived an hour from her practicum and she had no transportation to get there, but ridiculously said she would buy a car the next day.  The only compromise we could come up with that she agreed to was to move in with my parents while she finished college.  She jumped at that choice, and it soon became very clear why.  Never in a million years did we think that she would screw over her beloved grandparents (I would have never let her move there had we known), but she did.  She pulled disappearing acts with them, even with my mom's car one time, lied, and was basically just living with the guy anyway as she was gone from my mom's place for days on end.  Much, much more to this story, as I am sure you understand... .but my point is that it wasn't until my mom witnessed the behaviour first hand did she truly believe what was going on with DD.  She has been much more empathetic and sympathetic with us since then, and realizes that it is not "us" who is causing DD to be this way, DD just IS this way.

But at least my mom was and is willing to let me talk about dd with her.  It is the few friends who I have confided in (because I was forced to, I was away with them when dd disappeared with above said stranger after going out for a "walk" and my husband contacted me because he didn't know what else to do) that have truly hurt me with the silence from some of them that followed initial expressions of concern.  That silence felt like shame.  That is something that I never want to feel again regarding my daughter and, for me, it has been radical acceptance that has helped me move past feelings of shame.  I am still figuring how to move forward with these friendships (that have spanned 30 years) or, honestly, if I even want to.

That said, I have even found that some healthcare professionals do not even "get it".  I have been ever so frustrated by both our family liaison worker and our daughter's worker who have incredulously asked us "why" our daughter would behave in such an irrational manner when she seemingly has everything going for her.  How do you answer "why", when there is no explanation besides the very reason we are there - because she is mentally ill.  I understand that we all say "why, why, why", but for a supposed mental health expert to ask us, as parents, to explain the unexplainable just seems totally unprofessional.

That is why this site is such a life safer - everyone here gets it.  To be understood helps very much in getting past the inevitable self-doubt and self-blame.  I hope that you are feeling the understanding and support that is here.

How are you and your wife doing, Jock?  It sounds like you are both on the same page as far as the boundaries are concerned, and that is very good.  MM

 

[Jock]

"It is the few friends who I have confided in (because I was forced to, I was away with them when dd disappeared with above said stranger after going out for a "walk" and my husband contacted me because he didn't know what else to do) that have truly hurt me with the silence from some of them that followed initial expressions of concern.  That silence felt like shame.  That is something that I never want to feel again regarding my daughter and, for me, it has been radical acceptance that has helped me move past feelings of shame.  I am still figuring how to move forward with these friendships (that have spanned 30 years) or, honestly, if I even want to.

That said, I have even found that some healthcare professionals do not even "get it".  I have been ever so frustrated by both our family liaison worker and our daughter's worker who have incredulously asked us "why" our daughter would behave in such an irrational manner when she seemingly has everything going for her.  How do you answer "why", when there is no explanation besides the very reason we are there - because she is mentally ill.  I understand that we all say "why, why, why", but for a supposed mental health expert to ask us, as parents, to explain the unexplainable just seems totally unprofessional."

Whilst different circumstances I can totally relate to your comments about friends. I have discussed it with very few and although haven't felt shame (but I can imagine exactly how you felt) I have always had the need to defend our daughter and explain again and again the illness and the symptoms and that she isn't just a stroppy or badly behaved teenager. Totally agree as well with your comments on some (most) healthcare professionals as they just don't get it and often seem to blame us as parents for things that happen.

Thanks for asking about my wife :-) She is doing a lot better and is getting her mental strength back in a nice peaceful environment. The update on our daughter is that there has been more communication (also between my wife and her) and I decided to send the boundaries written down rather than in a conversation but in a nice clear way. I also finished the message off with "We won't go over what has happened as it is water under the bridge so lets all move on and just keep working hard at dealing with BPD together. We both love you very much" She replied to say that she said she would live within the boundaries, would do her best and thanks.
She asked me if I would pick her up from work tonight and give her a lift home so that is what is happening.

Thanks again for all the replies as well to all who contribute to these pages as it really is a wonderful support and clearly a great community.

[wendydarling]

Hi there Jock 

I'm so very sorry what you and your wife are going through, taking back your lives as others say and as you are doing is the right thing to do. 

We are also looking for a bit of advice when there is a blow out and your daughter/son actually lives in the house and the blow out is taking place in the house. What do you do when the verbal abuse is constant over a long period and when you walk away you are followed or when you go in to another room within a minute the door opens and it starts again?

I wanted to come back to your request for advice. My 29DD does not rage/blow out, she is a quiet one so no personal experience however many parents here do and it's one many struggle with I hope they'll join the conversation.
At the top of the parents board is a thread What parents can do and this is a link to Lesson 3 Tools for solving problems and diffusing emotions A good question to ask ourselves is how we respond when our child/adult starts to dysregulate, can we help them to get back to baseline by how we respond, do you see how some of the lessons may help you?

And of course it's vital your daughter using/practicing the skills she learnt from STEPS to manage her emotions, you say things did improve for a while, does she have continuing support from STEPS to do her very best as she'll need it.

WDx

[MomMae]

Hi Jock,

Just wondering how things are going for your family?  Has your daughter returned home?  When you feel up to it, please let us know how you are.  MM

[Jock]

Thanks for the links Wendy :-) She doesn't have continued support from STEPS but we are encouraging her to read her notes and also keep in touch with the others that were on her course.

Thanks for asking MomMae. Yes our daughter is now back at home although she was away at friends for three days as well which helped create more space and allow the dust to settle some more. She has also started a new job today (they approached her as she had done some work experience for them a year ago) and left the last one on good terms so that too is progress and good for her confidence.