Ruminating. How do you let go?

[Our abuse recovery guide]

Hi all relatives with a BPD-family member

I'm in my 40s. and I'm the little brother. My sis has BPD-traits both my nurse and psychologist and doctors told me about a year ago, after I had a major break down. That was after being alone for 5 years with both my parents both ill with cancer. I lost my dad. Sister didn't help at all, and we were No Contact in those 5 years.

Then I read several books about BPD and surfed hundreds of web-site, reading about the disorder. Finally I found an explanation to my sisters behavior. Almost everything in 'Stop walking on eggshells' matched her.

Sisters BPD has caused a trail of sorrow and sadness in our family for decades now. Real bad.

I've been working on my issues (primarily anxiety and depression) at several psychologists for decades too. Used CBT a lot. It works!

I had almost given up on my sister two years ago, but I wanted to make up again, because I thought it would be really good for siblings to care for each other and share work and sorrow if my parents got ill. And they did.

But my project didn't work so well. In the last moment sister came to our town when my dad didn't have weeks left, but only days. For years I had the idea, that she would help me in that situation, but actually she made everything worse for everybody, because she couldn't cooperate with me, and I had all the contact with doctors, hospitals and of course my parents. What happened actually was that she used all her time fulfilling her own needs, and still left me with all the practical work and coordination.

She also refused having er cell phone on while being here, so I couldn't even call her when my dads nursing home needed things for him from the pharmacist. She stayed 1 kilometer from his nursing home and visited him every day, and I live 50 kilometers from  it, but again I had to travel the distance back and forth because she wouldn't even drop by the pharmacist when she visited him. That was how it was every day that week she stayed close to him.

It was actually a relief when she drove home, because she had given all the nurses counter-orders just the opposite of what I had agreed with them, I found out later on.

Now a year after my dads gone, the communication with my sis has broken down - again! This time because she told us she was mortally ill (but she wasn't, but she was stressed and had migraines). When I told her I was a bit annoyed that she for months had planted the ideas in me and my mothers mind, that she (sister) was mortally ill, she wrote me not so nice things totally ripping up in the past for our family (projection big time - oh yeah), and I don't wanna go that way, because it sucks all energy our of my mind. So it was negative mails to me, about me, and for the first time I told her, that she wasn't so nice as she always thinks, because I had been alone with the responsibility for our parents, she didn't even show up when my dad was transferred to the ICU. She responded with quitting our contact.

A couple of days ago, it was a year ago, she demanded no contact. But then at my birthday she sent me a present and a nice card. But it made me very sad and afterwards angry, because she still wants no contact. So she will not accept that I contact her or send her gifts or cards, but she wants to contact me on my birthday. In my world it is so weird, so I couldn't stand it more a couple of days ago, and I wrote her, that I didn't want birthday gifts or cards, when she had said no contact, because it made so confused.

Waiting for her answer actually got my migraine too, and I only have migraine every second year when some problems really stresses me out. The mail came. She just answered it with: Ok, no contact - AT ALL.

And I guess the 'AT ALL' meant that she wouldn't send my anything for birthday in the future. And I really have an idea that she sends me presents because our mom thinks birthdays are very, very important, and the only one sister has respect for is my mom.  Now it's 'No Contact' and I'm both relieved and sad, because I was naive and thought it would work out this time, when our parents were hospitalized, but it didn't.

I really don't wanna make up with sis now where it didn't even work out and she didn't help when our parents were ill. I'm exhausted. I just want to let go of all the problems and all the accusations my sister dug up from the past - again. But in my mind I can't seem to let go. I'm ruminating (psychology today: Ruminating is simply repetitively going over a thought or a problem without completion).


So finally - sorry for the too long intro  - the question:

If you have no contact with a family member, how do you let go of all the intrigues and the scheming? Any practical tricks?
(You have already read my too long and boring story, and I'm sure it wasn't that interesting reading, then guess how it is with the same story churning in my mind
every day - it's really hell)

Is it "just" saying to yourself 'OK thoughts about sister, I can see you are there again. But you have nothing new to say. You can stay or you can go, but I won't listen to you. I want to make something positive our of the future for me!'. And maybe, just maybe the thoughts won't show up as often for each day or week?

I must admit, that even though we are grown ups, I'm still a little afraid that my sister will say (or already has said) something scheming to my mother about me. Because my sister can magically (must be black magic then  ) turn most things into her her own advantage. And when sister manage even crying on the phone, my mother definitely thinks sister is the one we should please. ( I have a slight idea that this BPD comes from my mothers side of the family  )

But if have to check out what my sister has been saying to my mother, and then wanna tell my mother the truth, I'm actually playing the scheming game also. And I don't wanna do that!

Then I can only think of trying to let go, and do something positive with my mother and quit the subject about my sister permanently?

You can hear I'm really confused. And it makes me angry that the BPD still can make me confused and make family ties hard after decades of the same problems from sis. So that's why I would like to hear your opinions, because you guys can see it from the inside without the family-emotions/feelings.

Thanks so much in advance. 

All best Snoopy

[Snoopy737]

Hi all relatives with a BPD-family member

I'm in my 40s. and I'm the little brother. My sis has BPD-traits both my nurse and psychologist and doctors told me about a year ago, after I had a major break down. That was after being alone for 5 years with both my parents both ill with cancer. I lost my dad. Sister didn't help at all, and we were No Contact in those 5 years.

Then I read several books about BPD and surfed hundreds of web-site, reading about the disorder. Finally I found an explanation to my sisters behavior. Almost everything in 'Stop walking on eggshells' matched her.

Sisters BPD has caused a trail of sorrow and sadness in our family for decades now. Real bad.

I've been working on my issues (primarily anxiety and depression) at several psychologists for decades too. Used CBT a lot. It works!

I had almost given up on my sister two years ago, but I wanted to make up again, because I thought it would be really good for siblings to care for each other and share work and sorrow if my parents got ill. And they did.

But my project didn't work so well. In the last moment sister came to our town when my dad didn't have weeks left, but only days. For years I had the idea, that she would help me in that situation, but actually she made everything worse for everybody, because she couldn't cooperate with me, and I had all the contact with doctors, hospitals and of course my parents. What happened actually was that she used all her time fulfilling her own needs, and still left me with all the practical work and coordination.

She also refused having er cell phone on while being here, so I couldn't even call her when my dads nursing home needed things for him from the pharmacist. She stayed 1 kilometer from his nursing home and visited him every day, and I live 50 kilometers from  it, but again I had to travel the distance back and forth because she wouldn't even drop by the pharmacist when she visited him. That was how it was every day that week she stayed close to him.

It was actually a relief when she drove home, because she had given all the nurses counter-orders just the opposite of what I had agreed with them, I found out later on.

Now a year after my dads gone, the communication with my sis has broken down - again! This time because she told us she was mortally ill (but she wasn't, but she was stressed and had migraines). When I told her I was a bit annoyed that she for months had planted the ideas in me and my mothers mind, that she (sister) was mortally ill, she wrote me not so nice things totally ripping up in the past for our family (projection big time - oh yeah), and I don't wanna go that way, because it sucks all energy our of my mind. So it was negative mails to me, about me, and for the first time I told her, that she wasn't so nice as she always thinks, because I had been alone with the responsibility for our parents, she didn't even show up when my dad was transferred to the ICU. She responded with quitting our contact.

A couple of days ago, it was a year ago, she demanded no contact. But then at my birthday she sent me a present and a nice card. But it made me very sad and afterwards angry, because she still wants no contact. So she will not accept that I contact her or send her gifts or cards, but she wants to contact me on my birthday. In my world it is so weird, so I couldn't stand it more a couple of days ago, and I wrote her, that I didn't want birthday gifts or cards, when she had said no contact, because it made so confused.

Waiting for her answer actually got my migraine too, and I only have migraine every second year when some problems really stresses me out. The mail came. She just answered it with: Ok, no contact - AT ALL.

And I guess the 'AT ALL' meant that she wouldn't send my anything for birthday in the future. And I really have an idea that she sends me presents because our mom thinks birthdays are very, very important, and the only one sister has respect for is my mom.  Now it's 'No Contact' and I'm both relieved and sad, because I was naive and thought it would work out this time, when our parents were hospitalized, but it didn't.

I really don't wanna make up with sis now where it didn't even work out and she didn't help when our parents were ill. I'm exhausted. I just want to let go of all the problems and all the accusations my sister dug up from the past - again. But in my mind I can't seem to let go. I'm ruminating (psychology today: Ruminating is simply repetitively going over a thought or a problem without completion).


So finally - sorry for the too long intro  - the question:

If you have no contact with a family member, how do you let go of all the intrigues and the scheming? Any practical tricks?
(You have already read my too long and boring story, and I'm sure it wasn't that interesting reading, then guess how it is with the same story churning in my mind
every day - it's really hell)

Is it "just" saying to yourself 'OK thoughts about sister, I can see you are there again. But you have nothing new to say. You can stay or you can go, but I won't listen to you. I want to make something positive our of the future for me!'. And maybe, just maybe the thoughts won't show up as often for each day or week?

I must admit, that even though we are grown ups, I'm still a little afraid that my sister will say (or already has said) something scheming to my mother about me. Because my sister can magically (must be black magic then  ) turn most things into her her own advantage. And when sister manage even crying on the phone, my mother definitely thinks sister is the one we should please. ( I have a slight idea that this BPD comes from my mothers side of the family  )

But if have to check out what my sister has been saying to my mother, and then wanna tell my mother the truth, I'm actually playing the scheming game also. And I don't wanna do that!

Then I can only think of trying to let go, and do something positive with my mother and quit the subject about my sister permanently?

You can hear I'm really confused. And it makes me angry that the BPD still can make me confused and make family ties hard after decades of the same problems from sis. So that's why I would like to hear your opinions, because you guys can see it from the inside without the family-emotions/feelings.

Thanks so much in advance. 

All best Snoopy

[zachira]

My heart goes out to you because I too come from a family where I have been badly hurt by the behaviors of my family members with BPD. Like you, I have been struggling with ruminating over how my family members' behaviors continue to puzzle and hurt me to the very core of my being. You are doing what is key to lessening the ruminating over things you can't change by sharing your feelings and thoughts with others. Do give yourself time to grieve on a regular basis by sitting quietly and observing your feelings. No uncomfortable feelings whether it's anger or sadness or something uncomfortable that you can't find words for will last as long, if you calmly face the feelings and let them dissipate. When you find yourself ruminating, try to find the feelings underneath the rumination. Also, it helps to find someone to listen, and you are welcome to post here anytime. Many of us have been posting on this site for a long time, and as time goes by, many of us are less overwhelmed by heartbreak and happier people, though we always will be heartbroken to some degree about not being able to have the loving relationships with our family members that we would like to have.

[hope2727]

Hello,

I am sorry you have been through so much. I know how draining the palliative care of a loved one can be. Thank you for taking such good care during all those difficult times. I have siblings that did much the same as your sister with my mom. Its maddening.

As for your sister she sounds just like one of mine. Rage, double standards, silent treatments and then reaching out would be one of my older sister's modus operandi. I finally had to give up and just end contact. She is deathly ill with cancer and it makes me sad that I can't even offer support but really it would just be another round of the same thing. In truth we sometimes have to save ourselves and not let the ":)rowning man" pull us under with them.

As for ruminating... .thats a tough one. I have a little copy of "How to survive the Loss of A Love" that i find quite helpful. I have read it cover to cover many times over many losses (not just romantic loves) and now I just crack it open randomly to read a page when I need a reminder. I also took up a musical instrument and force myself to practice when I get stuck in a rumination loop. I used to run and may start that again. I also have a list of the horrible things they did directly to me that I read aloud when I am in doubt.

Most let time pass. Every day is a little better even if it is a bit like playing snakes and ladders. You will get there.

hugs  

[Panda39]

Hi Snoopy737,

If you have no contact with a family member, how do you let go of all the intrigues and the scheming? Any practical tricks?

You can't control your sister, she's gonna do what she's gonna do (and for that matter the same goes with your mom) But you can control what you do and how you react.

There are many tools here but the big three for me are... .don't participate in Triangulation, don't JADE (Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain) and do create and enforce boundaries.  These tools are about changing the dance you have been doing with your sister and your mom, protecting yourself, and not engaging in the drama.

Okay so lots of reading  dig in... .

More on Triagulation... .
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=108440.0

More on JADE (and circular arguments)
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=139972.0

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=118892.0

More on Boundaries... .
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=61684.0
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=167368.0

So how could using these tools look.

Don't pick up the bait... .your sisters schemes are about getting you to engage in the drama with her (and for her is making her feel better about herself by putting you down and making you the bad guy).  So your sister tells you mom or anyone else this stuff, let it lay there don't JADE, those that know and love you will know it is false, others might believe at first but overtime will figure it out on their own, and still others might believe and do you really need people like that in your life?

Is your mom or sister trying to get you to jump on the triangle?

Your sister plays the victim (because you are such a horrible sister  )
You are put in the role of persecutor by your sister (because remember you are such a horrible sister   )
Then your mom jumps into the role of rescuer (to keep the peace)

Another way to look at the triangle... .

Your sister is the persecutor saying false stuff about you to your mom
You are the victim of false accusations
Your mom is then mom jumps back on the triangle in the role of rescuer

Another version... .

Your mom is the victim she is lied to by your sister
Your sister is the persecutor (telling lies about you)
You jump in on the triangle to rescue mom (set your mother straight)

Depending on the situation you all can be in all the different positions on the triangle.  When you start getting sucked into these situation stop and think... .is this the triangle?  Your sister will continue to try and stir the pot with your mom and your mom will keep trying to pull you in.  Don't, so your sister told your mom somthing that conversation is between the two of them.  Your sister is going to say what she is going to say and your mom will believe or not.  Let the two of them deal with it.

This can be where you create a boundary.  Next time your mom brings one of your sister's stories to you.  How about you tell her that you have decided to no longer talk about this kind of thing anymore and enforce the boundary and stop talking about the stuff your sister is throwing out there.  You are not JADing you have taken yourself off the triangle and you have set a boundary that protects you from having to listen to your sister's garbage about you.  Your mom might be uncomfortable with this boundary because you have changed the usual dynamic and she will not have you as a place to put the stuff your sister is saying so she will be forced to change how she handles things too.

Things are not hopeless, things don't have to go on like they always have, you have the power to make changes.

Panda39

[Snoopy737]

Wow! Thank you SO much, zachira, Hope and Panda. I'm completely overwhelmed, because your answers are so precise; tools I can use right away. This is truly amazing. I "only" had a Eating Disorder-help (ED) line I could call and then push the subject over to ED/BPD, but I really didn't get tools or answers I could use, because the helpers most often know nothing about BPD. So after a call I was always like 'Yeah, it was great speaking with someone telling about my problems, but I'm still stuck.'

I will write you all a better answer later, when I have printed all your posts out and read them again and again. I tend to do that, because I can hear you share years of experience. I really wanna pick it up and use it from this day.

All best, hugs Snoopy 

[MissAlwaysWrong]

The long introduction definitely gives anyone responding a really good foundation for giving advice! I have gone through NC with my entire family. My mother is uBPD and she manipulates my entire family (dad, brother, and sister) against me. But the NC is not negotiable and is more of a silent treatment. I find that someone with BPD needs to be a martyr. So maybe that is what is happening with your sister. She needs to be "the good one" by sending you a gift for your birthday. That way when she tells people about how you aren't speaking, she can say, "I even sent something for his birthday!" It is important to set boundaries and work on your own mental health. CBT is good for trying to manage our FOG. Good luck on this journey and I hope that whatever I said helps!

[Panda39]

Snoopy, I'm so glad we've been able to give you some helpful information.  Understanding what you're dealing with is half the battle.

MissAlwaysWrong mentioned FOG (Fear, Obligation, Guilt) or emotional blackmail so I wanted to share some information on what that is... .

https://bpdfamily.com/content/emotional-blackmail-fear-obligation-and-guilt-fog
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=82926.0

I can already see from your post that Fear is being used... .Fear that your sister will lie about you and it will be believed... .which leads you right into JADE and a circular argument and drama.

Panda39

[Gifthorse]

I understand you feeling confused and frustrated about the birthday present! I am guessing it is all about manipulation... .My sister did the exact same thing to me. Many people with BPD will not respect boundaries so at least in my sister´s case I think she got a kick out of doing this. She deliberately breaks a very clear boundary I have set and knows I won´t be able to show anger about it! How can I get angry when she sends me a present? How would that make me look after she has told everyone we know what an ungrateful so and so I am?
It could also be that she is subconsciously afraid of losing you! Underneath all their scheming and hatred they are basically just insecure children with a huge fear of abandonment who keep pushing you to see how far they can go... .I think if they fear they might have pushed you too far they will pull you back in... .I think the b-day present is a good example of this...

Just some thoughts here, really good to read your posts and good luck!

[Snoopy737]

Thank you so much MissAlwaysWrong

Yeah, maybe the "too long" intro was a good idea, because your answer targets exactly the feelings I'm having about the birthday gift and card.

For many years I have also seen her as a martyr.

I mean, I was in hospitalized when I e-mail her, telling her about it, and she answered she wouldn't have any contact with me, not now nor in the future. And then after a month she sent my mother a birthday gift and card for me (again Pandas triangulation/ drama triangle). Actually I didn't want a present from sister at hospital a month after she wrote me NC. But because the present was delivered via my mom, I wouldn't make my mom sad and return the gift.

But I felt really bad, because sis knows my mother thinks birthday presents and cards are mandatory in a family, so I felt it kind of justified sister as a good person, in my mothers eyes.

Maybe I'm overanalyzing sisters behavior, maybe she's just so confused that she regretted the NC when my Birthday came close, but sis is a really clever girl, so normally she thinks those situations out before acting, so ... .IDK.

Only thing I know is that it felt even more sad receiving a gift and a card, when I most of the month had grieved over her NC-mail. So last week I answered her on e-mail and wrote: If you want NC, then please don't send me presents or cards.

Thanks again, all best Snoopy

[Snoopy737]

Panda39

Thanks so much again Actually I've just returned from an appointment with my psychologist and showed him the notes you sent me about the Drama triangle, and we worked with it for an hour, and he was like 'Wow, can you really find that good people on the internet, who write such precise answers from just one of your posts alone!". He's really kind and maybe about late 50s, so the internet is still kind of new to him

Thanks for the FOG-links, because I didn't catch exactly what is was. First I thought it was a kind of fog like gaslighting. But yes, very much fear in me and my mother, because we never know how sis will take the things we say.


All best Snoopy

[Snoopy737]

Hey Gifthorse Thank you so much for your respond, too.

I understand you feeling confused and frustrated about the birthday present! I am guessing it is all about manipulation... .

Yeah, it actually could be, because she's a really clever girl.  I wish she would use her mind on something else than drama, maybe studying a subject or achieving a college degree.

My sister did the exact same thing to me. Many people with BPD will not respect boundaries so at least in my sister´s case I think she got a kick out of doing this. She deliberately breaks a very clear boundary I have set and knows I won´t be able to show anger about it! How can I get angry when she sends me a present? How would that make me look after she has told everyone we know what an ungrateful so and so I am?

Exactly! Oh wow your sis does that too? And I can almost hear my mom say "Well, yeah, she sent you a NC mail, but she only wrote in the future. You don't know exactly how long that is. She will take contact to you again, when she's better from the stress and you're better with your depression. She just won't have contact as long as you're ill. And see, she sent you this beautiful book and a nice card for your birthday.

And I'm like   in the corner. And what good is it being siblings, if you must go NC, when one or both are ill. I thought it was these situations it really was a help having great support from the family?

It could also be that she is subconsciously afraid of losing you! Underneath all their scheming and hatred they are basically just insecure children with a huge fear of abandonment who keep pushing you to see how far they can go... .I think if they fear they might have pushed you too far they will pull you back in... .I think the b-day present is a good example of this...

Just some thoughts here, really good to read your posts and good luck!

Really good thoughts, though. And yes could be. She could have had one of her a hissy fits when she wrote me that NC-mail, and maybe my mother said something to her in the phone (She does that), and because she never says 'I'm sorry' to anyone (because why should she? She's always the victim.) I suspect that gift being a little 'pull back'. Really plausible, too.

Yeah, weird stuff. And that's exactly what makes me so uneasy about the whole mess. Because both mom and sis often use gaslighting like 'What do you mean, NC? She sent you a fine gift and card for your birthday. You have contact again. Didn't you know that?" My mom has said things like that before.

So yeah, I had to write: "NC then no gifts or cards", because it's exactly situations like this that makes me ruminating day and night. And I hate when they both drag me out in that position.

That's why I'm looking forward to breaking the Drama Triangle and not participate in any of it. Just trying to Medium Chill, then.

Thanks again, all best Snoopy

[Panda39]

Panda39

Thanks so much again Actually I've just returned from an appointment with my psychologist and showed him the notes you sent me about the Drama triangle, and we worked with it for an hour, and he was like 'Wow, can you really find that good people on the internet, who write such precise answers from just one of your posts alone!". He's really kind and maybe about late 50s, so the internet is still kind of new to him

This is great!  Everything I've shared with you has been shared with me that's what makes this such a great site.  I've been here awhile and it has helped me so much and I think it's important to pay it forward. 

I'm on these boards because my significant other (SO) has an undiagnosed BPD ex-wife (uBPDxw) and they share two daughters.  I couldn't believe the stuff the ex was doing in terms of her daughters.  I discovered BPD by Googling "Chronic Lying", and ended up here about a year later.  My SO's daughters are young ladies now (D17 & D21).  D21 is no contact with her mom and D17 is low contact.  I support them in whatever relationship they choose to have with their mom.  This site and this board in particular have been really insightful and have helped me help them.

Panda39

[Snoopy737]

Panda and others?

Now, I'm reading about FOG and JADE and Drama Triangle, can anyone help me analyze these statements from my sis? She uses them a lot.

E.g. 1

After telling her, that she should get an appointment with her doctor, right away, when she texts me, that she can't even feel her legs last night.

She responds with : "I could easily write you a list of all the mistakes you have made for yourself in your life. But I won't, because I know you would hate it!"  (Can you see the cat claws?)

E.g. 2

At mom's birthday dinner at a restaurant

Me: "I would really like to see you again."

Sis: "You want contact with me? Oh yeah, talking problems all night, right?"

Me: "No actually not. Things go wrong when we get into discussions. I really wanted to invite you to the theater or go see a movie or go ice skating, drinking coffee afterwards."

Sis : "Ha! why would I go to the theater or to the movies with you. You don't even visit me anymore?"

Me: "You know I haven't visited you in a long time, because you were very very angry at me, at that Christmas Coffee you invited me to, and where you wanted an excuse for something I've said for over a year ago about you not paying attention after repeating my answer three time about who lived where, in our old neighbourhood, remember. You told me, you wouldn't be my sister anymore, if I didn't give you an excuse for that. You really scared me."

Sis: "Ha! Yeah, I was angry, but it wasn't just that, it was just the tip of the iceberg. You have done such horrible things to me, one of them so horrible, that I won't even mention it. I'm not like that."


E.g.3    At the phone with sis.

Sis: "You know, the guy I was married to, was a bit weird about sex. I think I don't even know what a normal sex life is? Does it work for you?"

Me thinking: 'Wow, a dangerous and very personal subject. Why doesn't she know? There's thousands of articles on the internet :/ hm, well she isn't into computer either, maybe that's why.'

Then I told her - not to detailed - how I actually didn't have any problems, and my girlfriend also thought it was good, with a few examples of really normal vanilla sex.

She seem satisfied and calm and after a while we hung up - still good friends.

Next time I called her.

Sis "Oh, btw, the stuff you told me about last time, the sex stuff, it was soo wrong."

Me "Wow, hold your horses, what was wrong? You asked me!

Sis: "Yeah, but it was soo wrong the things that you said, that I won't repeat them now, and it churned in my mind days and nights after, and I even had to talk to some friends about it, to feel just a little better."

Me: at that time I just were so stunned, that I don't know what I've said. I should have been angry, because why can she not accept how I actually have a good sex life with my girlfriend, when she asks about it? And I mean I only mentioned vanilla sex, nothing anyone could be hurt by. I even think some would call it a bit boring

---------------------

So my question is: What is the 'You have done so and so to me, but I won't repeat them!'?

I feel really miserable afterwards, because you can't even defend yourself when you don't know what the accusation is all about? It feels like in en 70s and I maybe talked back to my mom and she said "Oh, YOU just wait till dad comes home!"

I can see from the JADE, that answering back isn't a good solution, but I'm just wondering if you guys who are experienced can see what kind of method she uses here.

All best Snoopy

[Panda39]

E.g. 1

After telling her, that she should get an appointment with her doctor, right away, when she texts me, that she can't even feel her legs last night.

She responds with : "I could easily write you a list of all the mistakes you have made for yourself in your life. But I won't, because I know you would hate it!"  (Can you see the cat claws?)

I would simply not respond.  You made your suggestion it's up to her to decide if she is going to go to the doctor.  The rest is drama bait... .just let it lay there.

E.g. 2

At mom's birthday dinner at a restaurant

Me: "I would really like to see you again."

Sis: "You want contact with me? Oh yeah, talking problems all night, right?"

Me: "No actually not. Things go wrong when we get into discussions. I really wanted to invite you to the theater or go see a movie or go ice skating, drinking coffee afterwards."

Sis : "Ha! why would I go to the theater or to the movies with you. You don't even visit me anymore?"

Me: "You know I haven't visited you in a long time, because you were very very angry at me, at that Christmas Coffee you invited me to, and where you wanted an excuse for something I've said for over a year ago about you not paying attention after repeating my answer three time about who lived where, in our old neighbourhood, remember. You told me, you wouldn't be my sister anymore, if I didn't give you an excuse for that. You really scared me."

Sis: "Ha! Yeah, I was angry, but it wasn't just that, it was just the tip of the iceberg. You have done such horrible things to me, one of them so horrible, that I won't even mention it. I'm not like that."

You went into JADE here.  Less would have been more... .

Me: "I would really like to see you again."

Sis: "You want contact with me? Oh yeah, talking problems all night, right?" (bait again)

You: Actually I wondered if you wanted to go to the movies... .coffee... .ice skating

E.g.3    At the phone with sis.

Sis: "You know, the guy I was married to, was a bit weird about sex. I think I don't even know what a normal sex life is? Does it work for you?"

Me thinking: 'Wow, a dangerous and very personal subject. Why doesn't she know? There's thousands of articles on the internet :/ hm, well she isn't into computer either, maybe that's why.'

Then I told her - not to detailed - how I actually didn't have any problems, and my girlfriend also thought it was good, with a few examples of really normal vanilla sex.

She seem satisfied and calm and after a while we hung up - still good friends.

Next time I called her.

Sis "Oh, btw, the stuff you told me about last time, the sex stuff, it was soo wrong."

Me "Wow, hold your horses, what was wrong? You asked me!

Sis: "Yeah, but it was soo wrong the things that you said, that I won't repeat them now, and it churned in my mind days and nights after, and I even had to talk to some friends about it, to feel just a little better."

Me: at that time I just were so stunned, that I don't know what I've said. I should have been angry, because why can she not accept how I actually have a good sex life with my girlfriend, when she asks about it? And I mean I only mentioned vanilla sex, nothing anyone could be hurt by. I even think some would call it a bit boring  

I would use a boundary in this situation.

Sis: "You know, the guy I was married to, was a bit weird about sex. I think I don't even know what a normal sex life is? Does it work for you?"

You: You know what, I'm not comfortable talking about this, let's talk about something else

This is when she gets mad, or sarcastic, or uses FOG to try an boundary bust and get you to talk about this topic.  (I'm kind of a 3 strikes your out kind of Panda) So I would repeat again that I don't want to talk about that topic.  She keeps trying to get you to enter into the discussion (because people with BPD (pwBPD) really struggle with no) Tell her that you would like to talk with her just not about this topic but if she persists with pushing it you will hang up.  If it keeps going then hang up.

I can hear you thinking but hanging up on her is so mean and rude and she'll be so mad at me (Fear) But really who is being mean and rude here? You need to protect yourself.  With your sister you are kind of damned if you do and damned if you don't. She's never really happy no matter what you do, so I would say stop fearing what she will do... .stop walking on eggshells... .because she is gonna to what she's gonna do and you need to do what is right for you.

Everything we talk about here is going to feel weird, you're using muscle you've never used, and it will take practice just like learning anything new.

I'll be interested to hear if anyone else has other suggestions, there is more than one approach to things. I tend to be a pretty direct kind of person.

I'm going to suggest a book that I have not read but want to (I can't add one more book to my reading pile or it might fall over and kill me! but it's one you might find helpful.

Here is a link to it on the book review board... .
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=203887.0


Panda39

[Snoopy737]

Thanks again, Panda. I really appreciate this.

Eg.1  thanks, I see, and I learned a new expression: 'drama bait'   

Eg.2 Ok. Makes really good sense. And yes I have to learn to jump over the temptation to explain when I get the  respond " ... .talking problems all night?'".

Eg. 3  yeah, OK, that was the hard one, because she never asked about personal subjects like that, and I felt, OK, maybe our relationship as brother and sister, if we can ask each other subject we don't dare ask others about.

But I must admit it felt awkward from the beginning to the end. It surely was a topic I never should have opened with her. It's actually non of her business, and it hurt 'times 10' when she used it against me. I'll remember that a simple 'No' can make it all go away.

Thanks again, and yes I would like to hear other opinions too Absolutely.

All best Snoopy

[Pina colada]

Hi Snoopy737.  I read your story and my heart goes out to you.  You got advice from the best! I am not there yet... .I did just lose my dad last August.  BPD/uNPD sis stayed away.  In her defense, she live five hours away, however, dad was dying and she chose not to "help".  My brother also lives on the east coast, very far and he flew in every chance he could bless his heart.  I live over an hour away.  I visited weekly (almost) as I work full time, kids, etc.  I came out when he needed me and took him to doctor visits but mostly just spent time with hi. When he was in the hospital and out of it I visited every day, about ten days in a row.  The hospital was about and hour and twenty minutes.  Sis did not drive in until the day before he passed.  She brought her husband, no kids... .and her dogs... .She was staying in a hotel and used her dogs as an excuse on why she had to leave the day after he passed.  Her daughter and her boyfriend would not let them stay with them... .why... .She skipped out on the funeral.  Dad did a lot financially for her even tho she is way up there in her late 60"s.  She didn't have the decency to go to his funeral.  Bro and I made all the arrangements with sis just waiting to hear how much money she would get.  At one point she before she went NC with me she accused bro and I of conspiring to keep her share of our fathers money, ridiculous as thetas not how it works.  She cut me off in December (it's on another post) I really wanted to stay in touch as it made my dad happy.  Now that it's been a while I can tell you I am better off without her drama and craziness!  Best thing she could have done!  However I do agree with a child, I would do everything to keep contact.  My sister was no friend, she abused me as a child.  Even so it is hard tools that family contact.  Good luck and keep posting with your thoughts and stories!

[Snoopy737]

Hi Pina Colada

Wow, thank you so much for your post!

Your story sounds pretty much like mine, and I've been so alone with mine, because - as you said - it's different with a kid, so I didn't expect my mother to be 100% honest to sister. Mom just can't, because mom is so afraid that sis will go no contact.

So I have been alone with this.

I called a Eating Disorder-line, though, and a cancer-help-line, and they were/are very sweet. The knew - from Eating Disorders - how my sisters thoughts and acting could change from day to day - maybe hour to hour - but the didn't know anything about - and didn't understand - her anger and cruelty there can be in BPD's. So they always gave me tips and tricks to get along with sister and suggested that I should be more tolerant to sister.

And at last I was treated so bad by sis, so I hadn't any tolerance left, I have to admit that. It's only 1½ years ago I got to know that sis could have BPD (including a small eating disorder), and then the whole puzzle about her - for 30 years - could finally be put together.

I'm really glad to hear that you have a brother, and that you were two kids who could take care of your father and the funeral. I don't know exactly why, but it really troubles me, that I can't have my sisters support and that she now has gone no contact with me, because one day my mother will get ill or "moves over" to the other side. I really hate that thought.

But I tell you, it really, really helped me a lot hearing that you have had the exact same problems, with you (and your bro) taking the responsibility and the BPD-sis just arriving in the last moment only caring for her own needs.

That was just the way I felt. I remember how I called sister every time anything happened with my mom or dad, and it really sucked all the energy of out my mind because sister (also living far away: 900 kilometers) had so many weird questions about mom's and dad's help, and when I got tired, I asked the nurses if they would be so kind to explain the same things to my sisters, that they already had told me - about mom's and dad's health - if my sister called their office. They were very sweet and said "Yes of course". I told sister that, she could actually call the hospital anytime 24-7, but guess what - yeah, sister never called the nurses.

But when my sis arrived the last days, and the nurses told me, that my father needed a lot of quite hours sleeping with no visitors and he actually jumped up from bed with a scream because he got nightmares from us entering the room, my sister would NOT leave. I was pretty mad. I had had all hospital contact, and I knew what dad needed, but sister was just like when were kids and couldn't get along, just saying "Well, if YOU wanna go! Then GO! I'll stay with dad beside his bed, while he's sleeping."

That triggers me a lot. Well, she thinks her little brother is still 7 years old, and she won't respect me. Well, fine. I don't like it, but I'm used to it. But what she didn't respect was my fathers need for being alone, sleeping in that hospital ward, and I still can see my sisters angry face, saying that I can go!


She was like that all week. One day she actually said directly "Ha! Anyone can do that. I can do that. You're not needed here anymore." And that was when I was told to clean up my dads room at the nursing home. And what happened. My sister had not been driving for a long time, so she didn't dare drive in mom's car. So she ordered taxis - and mom live in the country, so my dad died the the day before, and sister let my mom clean the room too, and then they had to wait 4 hours for at taxi to drive 1 km home with dads stuff. Again I was triggered. Because I could have driven them home in 5 minutes without waiting time. But I was 'NOT NEEDED'!  

As soon as my mother got home from hospital, sister stayed with her and was very careful derailing me as the hospitals contact person and only speaking with my mom. And she took my mom on train trips, even though I picked mom up from hospital and talked to the doctors and had got the message, that my mom should stay home for at least a week.

But sis overruled that, and my mom got really really sick after one of their trips and almost died, but was saved in the last minute by paramedics.

Again I could just see how my sister didn't care at all for the work that I had done and that I was the contact person for the doctors and nurses. And believe it or not. When my sister couldn't handle being by my mothers side anymore, she just traveled the 900 km back to her apartment without saying a word to me. And I had to pick every piece and responsibility up again.

Whups, sorry for writing too much again. I really appreciate your post. Thanks again. I also see this forthcoming near future as exciting, because since my sister says no contact, I can actually leave it like that, and I'm totally out of all the scheming. I don't have to participate in any of it more. But I really have to be careful not saying anything negative about sister to my mom. But it's really great that I can vent it here.

How do you balance that relieve with the sorrow that also comes, when you kind of lose a sister? Right now I'm about 90% sad and ruminating and only 10% (of the time) relieved.

All best Snoopy

[Snoopy737]

Hi Guys 

Haven't forgot you at all, I have just taken some time to take it all in. A month.

Today, I've just had a crying-day, where everything felt so sad. I should be good to myself, but I'm a little annoyed that I can't take the feelings a little every day. It's as if, I - And I don't know how - keep the sad feelings away for maybe one month, and then suddenly it all crashes down. Feelings, the sad ones, times 100.


To Zachira

Do give yourself time to grieve on a regular basis by sitting quietly and observing your feelings. No uncomfortable feelings whether it's anger or sadness or something uncomfortable that you can't find words for will last as long, if you calmly face the feelings and let them dissipate. When you find yourself ruminating, try to find the feelings underneath the rumination.

This is a really good advice, Zachira and I really thought a lot about it. My psychologist said the same. Actually, we started each session with just silence, taking all the feelings in. Otherwise I would just talk and talk. I also try yoga, and sometimes the feeling and tears suddenly surface. I'm just struggling with the sad feelings accumulating, and then I can hardly be in my body when they get out. And then intention of your little exercise  feeling whatever surface, should eliminate the big roller coaster high and lows, I suppose.

[Snoopy737]

Hello,

I am sorry you have been through so much. I know how draining the palliative care of a loved one can be. Thank you for taking such good care during all those difficult times. I have siblings that did much the same as your sister with my mom. Its maddening.

As for your sister she sounds just like one of mine. Rage, double standards, silent treatments and then reaching out would be one of my older sister's modus operandi. I finally had to give up and just end contact. She is deathly ill with cancer and it makes me sad that I can't even offer support but really it would just be another round of the same thing. In truth we sometimes have to save ourselves and not let the ":)rowning man" pull us under with them.

As for ruminating... .thats a tough one. I have a little copy of "How to survive the Loss of A Love" that i find quite helpful. I have read it cover to cover many times over many losses (not just romantic loves) and now I just crack it open randomly to read a page when I need a reminder. I also took up a musical instrument and force myself to practice when I get stuck in a rumination loop. I used to run and may start that again. I also have a list of the horrible things they did directly to me that I read aloud when I am in doubt.

Most let time pass. Every day is a little better even if it is a bit like playing snakes and ladders. You will get there.

hugs 

To Hope2727

Thank you so much, Hope2727, I've also been thinking of every word you wrote me. Thank you! I'm really sad to hear about your sister ill with cancer. It's exactly those situations where we want to help, but I'm in the same situation. My uBPD sis don't want help now she is (only) ill with stress, but yeah, it's hard for me to accept.

Your book idea "How to survive the Loss of A Love" doesn't exist in English in my library, but it has been translated to my first language I discovered yesterday, so I have reserved it. I'm really looking forward to reading it. If it works for me, too, I'll definitely order it in English.

You have a guitar profile picture, so I guess the instrument you took up is playing guitar? It's funny, though, because I have both a sunburst western and a stratocaster copy hanging here on my wall, and I don't play them well, I could indeed take this up, too. Really god idea!

Running, sounds great! I take long walks until I lose a few stone, because I would like to run as well. I've begun swimming, though. That's really a moment where I don't ruminate about sister, I can say. I'm not that good a swimmer, so I really have to concentrate in the water, so it's acutally a good distraction I can recommend if anyone likes water. It was hard getting up the sofa the first times and down to the pool. But I kept on going, and now I actually miss the water if I skip practice.

The list of the horrible things - I couldn't help laughing when I read that. I hope you understand. I'm not laughing at you, but laughing because it's a great idea. And in my mind it's also great humor because I really often forget the bad things and only remember the good things about sis, when I miss the relationship. And when I reconnect with her, I - of course- can remember that I have seen her acting this way before, and then I can ask myself: Why do you keep on going for another round? You knew she would react like this and not like your brain wants her to react. Or you would react yourself.  I think it's quite funny, that I only get older, not wiser

Thanks again, I really appreciated all your words for me. All best, Snoopy737

[hope2727]

Hi again. I am glad it helped a bit. Yes a guitar is my instrument and I love it. The book is available on amazon. Here is the link.

https://www.amazon.ca/Survive-McWilliams-Harold-Bloomfield-Colgrove/dp/0931580439


A psychologist recommended it to me and I found it VERY helpful. I hope it helps a bit.

Other suggestions are journalling. Keep a thought record helps you to look back and realize not only how far you have come but also how completely unreasonable some of the situations you endure have been.

run one minute then walk one for 12 cycles 4 times in one week. Then do 2 minutes run and one minute walk 10 cycles 4 times in the next week. Third week run 3 walk one 9 cycles etcetc until you are up to 10 minute run 1 minute walk 2 cycles. Then just keep running 10 and ones for the rest of your life and start increasing the distances kms or miles until you are a rock star. You can get there. NEVER run fast. just slump along and the miles will rack up. You've got this.

Also try mindfulness. There are a bunch of ways just google it. There are even apps. It will help.

Ok I have to run but I am happy to hear from you.

hugs