Beating the BPD at their own game?

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

My advice is read about the drama triange.

Escaping Conflict and the Karpman Drama Triangle
https://bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle

[Skip]

My advice is read about the drama triange.

Escaping Conflict and the Karpman Drama Triangle
https://bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle

[Skip]

Ollie, its sounds like your path is pretty well set, and you're a year in. A lot of advise her (including mine) is general and focused on general approaches and, generally, the best way to approach these things from the beginning.

This is not at the beginning, you are a year in and 20+ hearings before the judge. We will all try to dial into that to help. 

I know jury’s can surprise everyone but I trust that with evidence so condemning they cannot ignore it and if they do guess I will be back in court again real soon. 

... .who do you think is going to tire out sooner? 

So, we have had a few members here play out the trajectory you are on. I want to share those with you

Mr. M
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?action=profile;u=14561
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Psycho_Ex-Wife

Mr. M had a a high conflict divorce which really picked up steam after the trial in which Mr M did well. It was "all about the kids and protecting them". Mr. M tried to get his case into the Pennsylvania Supreme Court. Both divorcees ended up on Good Morning Morning America, with Mr. M taking a international beating. The humiliated and distressed kids are growing up with this very public event, all their teachers, coaches, friends, their parents know about it... .as will future employers and love interests. Legal scholars, psychiatrists, and the media weighed in very unfavorably on his character for putting the children through this... .

95685dad
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?action=profile;u=20153

95685dad had a a high conflict divorce which really picked up steam after the trial in which 95685dad did well. You can read the story... .especially the part about a human rights group taking up to defend the ex-wife post trial and the Facebook sensation.  Last I heard, 95685dad was on Dr. Phil show where both his daughters renounced him (he was shocked) on national TV and accused him of abusing them.

There are several others... .

My only point is that, despite good lawyers and strong cases, these men never felt that justice was served and the fight destroyed their relationship with the children.

I think Snowglobe paints a picture from the inside-out:

I was in the same situation that your children are currently in. I was the only child of cheating uBPD mother, and a very hurt father. Through legal system he managed to leave her with just enough to get by... .telling me that my mother had “xyz” issues turned me away from him, and created the triangle that still follows me to this day. She was a victim (my mom, or your wife), my father was a punisher (as I was growing older, it made me resent him, until I completely cut him out of my life at the age of 15) and myself as a “rescuer” (saving my mother, comforting and consoling her... .//... .I wish my dad took the high road when he had a chance

So, with that said, let's talk about the end game a bit.

What are you thinking (plans, strategy), going forward, to advance this to a point where there are two parents providing a reasonably amicable co-parenting of young children?  That has to be your end game, no excuses, if this is really about the children.

If its about winning and punishment (first), and children, second, that is a very different plan and strategy going forward.

We're here to help you. Period. The fact that you supported your wife for 13 years and she had serial affairs is a huge betrayal and an atrocity - no question. Any man would be devastated by this at the highest levels of pain.

This week we are all reading about Anthony Bourdain's suicide after his years of pain following his divorce and most recently seeing photos of his current love interest with another man.

This is really serious stuff, Ollie, we get that.

[Ollie2018]

Ok. Revenge is not a best possible path here but where do you draw the line of refuting and correcting the record with friends and family which have been soaked with lies and fabricated stories by wife over last year?

My children already know way too much of an adult series of details which have come indirectly and directly from wife while she was speaking to parents of my children’s friends.

At school, at Girl Scout meetings ( BPD wife is also the girls scout leader), at PTA meetings... .she is and has drug our daughters into the mix and talk about the personal tragedy.  Wife is only looking at crafting and shaping her outward appearance as the dutifully stay at home super mom who is being victimized by her husband.

How do I stop and let the lies lay when they are already potentially effecting our kids?

Is it better to let it go in the short term and weather the storm of anger and embarrassment for children already in the que resulting from wife’s year long smear and pitty play and then let folks slowly learn the truth on their own as wife self fulfills her own destructive ways?

That is a hard pill to swallow for I feel as if the kids suffer so I can take the high road and avoid the fight for them.

I myself feel the die is cast and my path through the court is forced by a wife who while in the middle of chasing her new soul mate in adulterous affairs she has and continues to place our children on the back burner for her own selfish needs.  She introduces our young girls to felons, in person, online, over video chats.  That is a definite danger like walking in the busy street and getting hit by a vehicle.  How do you pull out of such a fight and walk the high road.  Bad things come out of courts every day.  Not always does justice prevail the first time of the second time.  Sometimes it takes a nightmare of steps from a committed person to wear the opposition down and win the justice for the beat down and helpless (this case our children).  They are innocent in this battle.  I have seen the evil in their mommy, they have not, they are too young to have the full story shared with them of what has been happening.  To the extent I can let them learn on their own over time as they are able to interact with mom she will show her true self to them.  I just do not want them abused, hurt, or killed by one of her terrible choices along the way.  That as a potential outcome is something I cannot live with.

As parents we are to protect our children from danger, right?

I understand fighting only risks further escalation and in terms of dealing with personality disorders things can spin out of control.

What is the fine line for which I do not cross in trying to protect our children from exterior threats ( wife’s paramours and affairs) and internal threats (emotional damage from mommy).

I just want to do the right thing but not leave kids to suffer.

[Notwendy]

I think you can do what you need to do to protect them from potential child predators online or physical dangers. I don't know what steps you need to take to do that, but protecting your children from potential serious harm is not revenge but necessary.

When I talk about not giving them a taste of their own behavior, it is about getting down to their level with gossip, slander and hurting them back. Protecting children is a different thing- it is a responsibility.

What she tells others is really hard to control. If there is evidence she's exposing your children to drug dealers and felons - then I would hope there is legal action to take to approach this.

Is there a way to separate actions that are mainly to get back at her and actions that are for the protection of your children?

[formflier]

Broadly speaking... .best to not "refute" or do any of that, until you have something legally actionable... then you go to court and win... .vice "gossip" on your own.

If you are aware and really care about particular relationships that she is trying to sabotage... .

Perhaps you could broadly saying something like this:  "I've been made aware that perhaps my wife has told you some outlandish stories about me... ."  pause  "I'm not going to stoop to her level and debate her reality... .but just know that I value you and your relationship.  If anything is particularly disturbing, I'm trusting that you will bring it to my attention if you believe "the truth" needs to be clarified."

Note:  You are valuing the relationship and leaving it up to them.  I think most people understand when they are told something unbelievable... and they put it in the correct category.  If something is truly going to affect your relationship (you and the third party "hearer" then they will make that determination and bring it up to you.

You expend much less energy... and get the same result.
FF

[Ollie2018]

I think you can do what you need to do to protect them from potential child predators online or physical dangers. I don't know what steps you need to take to do that, but protecting your children from potential serious harm is not revenge but necessary.


When I talk about not giving them a taste of their own behavior, it is about getting down to their level with gossip, slander and hurting them back. Protecting children is a different thing- it is a responsibility.

What she tells others is really hard to control. If there is evidence she's exposing your children to drug dealers and felons - then I would hope there is legal action to take to approach this.

Is there a way to separate actions that are mainly to get back at her and actions that are for the protection of your children?

I agree.  There is a differentiation between doing what you need to in order to protect your children verses doing stuff to make the BPD mad and upset.

Thanks!

[Ollie2018]

Broadly speaking... .best to not "refute" or do any of that, until you have something legally actionable... then you go to court and win... .vice "gossip" on your own.

If you are aware and really care about particular relationships that she is trying to sabotage... .

Perhaps you could broadly saying something like this:  "I've been made aware that perhaps my wife has told you some outlandish stories about me... ."  pause  "I'm not going to stoop to her level and debate her reality... .but just know that I value you and your relationship.  If anything is particularly disturbing, I'm trusting that you will bring it to my attention if you believe "the truth" needs to be clarified."

Note:  You are valuing the relationship and leaving it up to them.  I think most people understand when they are told something unbelievable... and they put it in the correct category.  If something is truly going to affect your relationship (you and the third party "hearer" then they will make that determination and bring it up to you.

You expend much less energy... and get the same result.
FF

Good point!

Thanks!

[Skip]

So, with that said, let's talk about the end game a bit.

What are you thinking (plans, strategy), going forward, to advance this to a point where there are two parents providing a reasonably amicable co-parenting of young children?  That has to be your end game, no excuses, if this is really about the children.

If its about winning and punishment (first), and children, second, that is a very different plan and strategy going forward.

I myself feel the die is cast and my path through the court is forced by a wife who while in the middle of chasing her new soul mate in adulterous affairs she has and continues to place our children on the back burner for her own selfish needs.  

These are almost the exact words of the two men I gave you links to.  

I understand fighting only risks further escalation and in terms of dealing with personality disorders things can spin out of control.

OK. Fair enough. You accept the potential consequences as necessary risk. I understand.

My question was do you see this as one of the possible outcomes (see video)?  This is one of those men's lives years after the divorce... .his new wife taunting the ex-wife for video fodder. We had a whole board of members who were in this post divorce battle for years.

In this video, the exwife's friend is headed to see the new wife with the video running knowing she will get a reaction. Watch her taunt the new wife. Hear the fist fight where on of the kids jumps in to help. Look at the little boy in hysterics. Both parties were blaming the other for the fight. Both justify this ongoing conflict because the other is forcing it on them.

Is that how it looks?


Date: 10-2014Minutes: 2:11
Grant's shoes!  | Years after the divorce

I don't have any simple answers as how you redirect after year of fighting... .I don't think it will be simple or easy. No one is suggesting that you become a doormat. I do know that the first step is to decide to truly put the hearts and interests of the children above your own. They don't want the parents to split - but if the do - they want them to get along.  

If you are motivated enough, strong enough, you will find a way. Members will help you. I'm just asking the hard question that needs to be asked. It's a question you need to consider, decide, live with.

Hang in there, Ollie. This is very difficult stuff.

[Red5]

Good Morning Ollie,

I am sitting here reading your post, and all the responses.

So I was curious as to what your hopes were as far as a divorce settlement are,
*Joint custody 50/50 (time shared) between both you and X2b wife
*Primary resident (you) /shared custody with X2b wife
*Shared, with your X2b wife having primary residence
*Full custody (you) with supervised visitation with X2b wife

I did not catch your children's ages, and how many you have.

I do not know where you are, in the states, or overseas.

My experience with the courts systems now twelve years ago, (FL.), in regards to custody of minor/teenage children;

*The court really does not care about infidelity per say, only who is best able to take care of the kids.

So that (full custody) enters the "unfit" area of custody & family law, should one or the other party intend on gaining full custody of the children.

Otherwise, more often than not, the wife gets residential with shared custody, ie' dad gets them when the court schedule dictates as long as they are still minors; teenagers approaching age seventeen-eighteen are different.

Dad pays out the nose, to keep the residence where the children reside up to the standards of which they are accustomed.

No easy days here, then there is "equitable distribution"... .and "mediation".

What was my experience?

I went through a divorce about twelve years ago now, many circumstances similar to your situation as far as infidelity.

Long story short, my X2B was in such a hurry to jettison me, that she wanted nothing from me;... .we had three children, at that time all teenagers per say, she signed everything over to me, the house, which I sold after I moved, she wanted no retirement benefits from me on the promise that I did not come after her for child support (yes really!)... .as far as $$, as she had cleaned me (our joint accounts) out prior, so didn't have to worry about that ()... .and she signed everything that my lawyer put in front of her.

At that time, our children were D14, S16, S20(autistic/special needs).

I let her have whatever she wanted out of the home, after I served her; and I gave her half the proceeds from the sale of the home, because I am a "nice guy"... .I paid for the lawyer, and everything having to do with the use of the court;... .and I gave her half the proceeds from the ginormous yard sale, after;... .she took what she wanted.

It is a no fault state (FL.), .so the whole thing lasted seven weeks from start to finish.

I had a good lawyer (female), and we did it in the court (Judges Chambers).

We heard nothing from the ex for about 2+ years after it was over, we moved to another state (military), the children wanted nothing to do with her for years afterwards, .and even now she comes and goes "whenever"... .due to my now S31(autistic/special needs), which I am now his court appointed "guardian" due to state law, .I have to allow "visits" (supervised) now and again... .when she does show up... .but there are boundaries there.

Long story, .bad stuff, 

So basically, if you want full custody, either "they" sign it over, or you have to prove them unfit in the court, which is a tall order,

Best of luck, tough stuff Brother Ollie,

Red5

[Cat Familiar]

Having been “trash talked” around town by my ex, I thought I’d share a bit of my experience.

People are often smarter and more observant than we think. Sure, some sided with him—the guys unhappy in their relationships who envied the ease with which he picked up women and kept it hidden from me.

But ultimately he became persona non grata in the eyes of most folks. And it was a good experience for me to discover who my true friends were.

Unfettered from the relationship with me, he crashed and burned in a rather public way and fled the area.

[Ollie2018]

End game?

I thought I knew what would be a target for our family... .now not sure.

I do not see how my wife and I in our current place can coexist much less coparent.  It is not just that I can back off and get along with wife for the kids sake.  She has done some extremely crazy stuff which directly endangered the well being of our children and our family.  She has never accepted that her actions were not in the best interest of the children.  Not to mention the horrible years of deceit and lies she has performed as front row example for our two daughters.

They already have been using lies to try and get what they want recently.  Can that be directly placed on wife for her dismal example no I cannot prove such a thing but with wife still spinning out of control and me having witnesses what is behind her curtain like the wizard of OZ, I cannot unsee that.

I cannot return to ignorance is bliss... .she she is a nut job and right now it must all or nothing into court and pray they do see what evidence we have.

I specifically did not want a judge trial because judges can overlook infidelity because they see cases with it every day of every week.  They are somewhat numb to terrible behavior and the shock of when a mom turns bad really bad.

Jury is on the other hand not use to seeing a continuous line of creeps and low life’s coming before them daily and weekly.  A jury may not be numb to terrible examples of parenting 101.  They may actually listen to the facts and develop the opinion this wife is bad to the core.  Something is seriously wrong or messed up.  The kids although need a mom in their lives they do not need to be with a mother like this unsupervised. 

About all I can muster at the present time for a possible end game... .

[Cromwell]

My initial thoughts are actually polar opposite; a jury trial is a complete lottery of who you will get. Just as we had became captivated by the charms, its hard not to expect a jury to be swayed the same way.

Then again, judges are all different too, but id personally have more faith in a judge who at the basis, has the intelligence of delivering a verdict based on black and white of the law. (or at least, should!, be expected to). Id have more faith in the judge than the average mix of the population and their associated prejudices they are forced to try and ignore for the purposes of reaching a fair verdict.

It is all about evidence though, judges wont be interested in "she said, she did" unless it can in some way be backed up. they do expect bickering because "daddy doesnt like mommy anymore" and via versa, i believe that, if anything, is what they will be most desensitised to.

[Zen606]

Hi everyone,
I would say NC is the best way to go. Unless one needs to be in contact with a BPD ex because of children, stay away. Don't get into the cycle again, and please do not go to their level of negative behavior.
Zen606

[Ollie2018]

Agree!

[AskingWhy]

My ex-h is uNPD\uBPD.  When he wrote or said something nasty and completely uncalled for to me, I would immediately mirror it back to him hoping he would see how awful that was. His response? "Why are you being mean to me?" He truly seemed unable to see that I had parroted back to him verbatim what he just said or wrote to me. He truly did not seem to understand what I was trying to do even when I tried to explain that I was mirroring/parroting back to him verbatim what he just wrote/said to me! It was mind boggling (and still is)!

I mirror to my uBPD/uNPD H.  He has such a double standard in what he says in the rages and tantrums.  When I turn the tables, which I can now do skillfully, he does not know how to react.  In the past, he'd rage and say hurtful things, and I was devastated and reduced to tears.  I would cry to the depths of my soul.  I recall one argument where H made a character assassination, threatened divorce, broke objects and furniture and then went to our bed and went to sleep, oblivious of the emotional carnage he caused.  I was so upset I called my brother (after midnight) to come over and talk with me.  (H was so deeply in sleep he did not know I had a guest.)  I was a physical wreck for days.

No more.  If H wants to pull his tantrum, I let him.  Just like a toddler who does this, I ignore H.  :)itto for the divorce threats.  I have had hundreds of them in the last 20 years.   I now now know just how vulnerable and fragile H's self-concept is.  It's a comfort to know that I have the emotional stilettos to put him in his place should he even think about hurting me again.  H called me the worst names a person can think of; I think you know of these insults for a woman.  After awhile, I collected my self-esteem about me and started looking at ways to stand up and now be cowed.  When H now gets critical (very BPD) and emotionally abusive (threats to withhold affection, file for divorce, not take me to medical appointments, etc.), I just laugh at him.  Maybe it's not the optimal way to deal with a spouse, but I have frankly had enough of the abuse.

And, yes, I have a very good lawyer in case either one of us has had enough.  I have a copy of, "Splitting," so I know what I am in for.