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Author Topic: BPD women who lead men on  (Read 2715 times)
lifeistough75

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« Reply #30 on: September 08, 2010, 01:50:42 PM »

Just to clarify, “doesn’t use the brain” was directed at Id based impulsivity and immediate gratification common to personality disorders rather than physiology. Although sex is a powerful emotional experience that can propel people into closer relationships, borderline relationships are not based on intimacy in any profound or meaningful way.  Borderlines are fantasy based and often think with the little head rather than the big, much to the dismay of their loved ones.

Sex (and the promise of it) is used as an easy tool to reward others in the borderline's effort to merge with the good object- The good object is you and me, the borderline and the borderline's earliest object- mother.  Sex is a tool to complete a reunion fantasy - but it never lasts because borderlines split themselves (as well as others) into rewarding/punishing personalities. Mirroring someone is their way of valuing (rewarding) themselves. As much as it seems like the other way around, their mirroring is really the way they open that pandora’s box from childhood.  It works on us too, but in other ways that ensnare us in the venus fly trap.

At a certain point, after you've been mirrored and seduced- the borderline feels depressed for good reason- everything they've done to seduce is choreographed and false. They begin to berate themselves for feeling forced and false- everything was about being needy and clinging and they hate themselves for that. The good object they once thought they were now splits and becomes bad- and the borderline needs to be punished or projects that punishment on to you.

Reward and withdrawal are intrapsychic- self representation (and view of others) goes from good to bad, positive to negative.  Splitting is internalized-as well as externalized and projected on others- and sex becomes a way to act this frustrated master/slave behavior out.  (Many borderlines want to punish or be punished during sex.) This skews the pleasure principle, (from seeking pleasure and avoiding pain) to intrapsychically seeking pain.  The fantasy is based on a recollection of childhood interactions with a punitive parent.  Hence the constant search for a new and improved rewarding object. 

In the meantime there are plenty of punishing, withdrawing objects to remind them how bad they are/were, which creates a greater need to find people to tell them that they are good before they fall into an abandonment depression.  If there is a chance at an actual abandonment depression (if they were alone, on a deserted island somewhere) they might write countless letters to you with the longing for love and second chances (reunion fantasy.) The thought of you is what keeps them away from self-responsibility and personal accountability.  After all, someone has to be blamed for their bondage.

By the time the borderline person reaches adulthood, a long pattern of fantasy and denial are locked into a series of choreographed seductions (with reunion fantasy still in the works for those failed relationships) For the most part, sex is used to fulfill the necessary *immediate* gratification to act out the fantasy with no weight given to reality at all.

Wow! Thank you very much 2010. I really learned a lot from this post. This sums up the relationship with my exgf. Very profound post, and great explanation of the background, and root causes. Thank you again.
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Disgruntled
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« Reply #31 on: September 08, 2010, 02:01:23 PM »

MrStinkMeanor... .I am going to give you some advice and I will probably get kicked off the board... .most women are attracted to cool confident hit_s... .at least a little bit... .and it does not matter what you look like... .as long as your an hit_ and act like you have some confidence... .you can't lose.  So if you are really wanting to sleep with her... .which I am not recommending because I think that will just suck you in more... .however if you do simply for closure purposes... .treat her like crap, sounds like she deserves to be treated like crap anyway!  Be a huge hit_!  Stop being so available to her... .it is too easy... .I promise.   Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)  
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cal20

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« Reply #32 on: September 08, 2010, 02:23:45 PM »

MrStinkMeanor... .I am going to give you some advice and I will probably get kicked off the board... .most women are attracted to cool confident hit_s... .at least a little bit... .and it does not matter what you look like... .as long as your an hit_ and act like you have some confidence... .you can't lose.  So if you are really wanting to sleep with her... .which I am not recommending because I think that will just suck you in more... .however if you do simply for closure purposes... .treat her like crap, sounds like she deserves to be treated like crap anyway!  Be a huge hit_!  Stop being so available to her... .it is too easy... .I promise.   Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)  

You are  right.

But I think this would be very difficult for him to do considering that he seems very attached to her. He was is a sex less relationship with her for 3 years and he still wants to be with her! So it probably wouldn’t work.

I think the OP should work on changing himself and becoming more confident on his own. She’s only going to break him apart at this point.
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TruthWillBeRevealed
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« Reply #33 on: September 08, 2010, 02:35:48 PM »

2010, where'd you get all that info from?

Specifically this one: "Many borderlines want to punish or be punished during sex."

While it may be true, the explanation for it seems very mystic and Freudian to me.
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« Reply #34 on: September 08, 2010, 05:58:43 PM »

According to James F. Masterson, parental scapegoating adds on to the Borderline’s failure to detach and learn the necessary *adaptive skills* to free themselves from “me-but not me” bondage. Their frustration at not being able to free themselves turns inwardly directed and results in “generally some form of sado-masochistic sexual adaptation, which reflects the earlier level of aggression and conflict.”  (Pg. 135 The Narcissistic and Borderline Disorders. Masterson author)

If you’ve ever wondered why sex is so incredible with a Borderline- it’s because they use it to serve you while fulfilling their internal splitting.

Borderlines are people in psychological bondage.  Their earliest source of human interaction (the Mother, i.e; parental object) may have also been in psychological bondage- and clung to the child.  (The easiest person to cling to- is a person who cannot say no.)

Maybe Mother was a Narcissist, and expected the child to reflect Mother’s World, maybe Mother was jealous or envious when the child started to show signs of self-responsibility or was passive aggressive about it, maybe Mother didn’t feel good about herself and turned her back on her child and withdrew.  Any of these combination's can make a child question their own autonomy and return to the parent for consolation and approval, abruptly ending all self-adventure.

Instead of raising her child to be authentic and with a solid concept of self, Mother subsumed and objectified the baby as a permanent part of herself. Mother may have adored the baby as a reflection of herself, causing the baby to mirror her moods or maybe Mother was never home causing the child anxiety and to cling to her - in response to Mother’s absence. Or Mother was anxious and then began to suspect and fear the child’s separateness which triggered her own separation anxiety and she began to scapegoat the child for having its own mind.  The child then stops developing and discovering (on their own) and returns to cling and console the Mother. The Mother, and perhaps Father in turn, said, “Who do you think you are? You are helpless and worthless!” scapegoating the child for its efforts to detach from them.

This taught the infant to hide the true self and provide a false self instead, one that was the perfect mirror to prove worthiness and to survive the whims of the hypercritical Parent. The child learned that to become something other than an “object,” a mirror for the parent… was wrong.  Any attempt to become self directed (something outside of the parent) triggered the Mother’s separation anxiety.  

Does the borderline love?  Yes. Does that love equate with freedom to be and live the way they want? No. Love has been taught to be a choreographed pattern of response to their own objectification (the nullification of their emerging self)-caused by the early caregivers and addressed by servitude, mirroring, and clinging behaviors to ensure that the Borderline is valued (to ensure that they survive.)  

To a Borderline: “Love is Bondage.” Borderlines are eager to please and be rewarded for their efforts. A "moral defense" is the tendency to take all the bad upon themselves, each believing he is morally bad so his partner (de facto caretaker) can be regarded as good. This is a use of splitting as a defense to maintain an attachment relationship in an unsafe world.(~ Fairbairn)

And because it's bondage, BPD is all about masochism and thoughts of persecution- and the expectations of being persecuted. If you had to narrow it down to a working hypothesis- it would be: child becomes victimized by a clinging and hypersensitive mother who shows separation anxiety whenever the child tries to detach. The child realizes that there is no other choice but to cling and formulates many acting out behaviors to this intrapsychic dilemma of “me- not me.”  The Behaviors become masochistically self-serving to the psychological construct that the Mother supplanted into the child’s mind- that the child is a kept person and has no ability to make her own decisions.  (In the child's mind, Mother is a sadist- and the only way to please a sadist is to self-sacrifice.)

The child’s anxiety arises in the teen-age years when she thinks of ways to step outside of Bondage and into adult life. Cutting, thrill seeking, impulsive sex (especially alternating between submissive and dominant sex) spending money, etc. are all ways to temper her masochistic anger and have it sadistically released (impulsively) to help offset the learned helplessness.  Often the result is a borderline who rails against abandonment (but clings for dear life) while harboring sadistic/masochistic fantasies which lead to self harm *to get back at the Master* (parents) for spite…

When the Borderline begins dating- it is the same outcome. Seductive mirroring, attaching, then clinging- then anxiety to offset the masochistic anger felt at being controlled. Her inability to self-soothe at her core and subsequently, release of tension with acting out behaviors - get attention at first, but now they are compulsive- and it’s no longer good. Et Voila’ you have the romantic partner turned into a de facto hypercritical, clinging parent who persecutes her. She is back in Bondage again.

You will be admired, adored and then clung to and when you attempt to peel them off and expect them to be self sufficient- they will use the only thing they were taught - sadistic SCAPEGOATING.  It's a hard pill to swallow- but you replaced the Parent. You will never *not* be scapegoated. The good news is: you actually got in there close enough to replicate the parent bond. The bad news is... .The scapegoating helps protect them. It's what they know. It's what they've been taught. There's nothing you can do to escape it- and every conversation you have after you've been split will only appear to them as sadistically motivated. To persuade them that you don't deserve the enemy behavior is pointless. They just dont understand it. In their minds, the conflict is with your behavior- not theirs. They may be confused- and admit they are confused- but they wont hear a word you are saying.

The Behaviors become self-serving to the psychological construct that the romantic partner (formerly Mother object in her mind) supplanted into the BPD’s mind- that the BPD is a kept person and has no ability to make her own decisions, is a masochist and is being sadistically persecuted.

The Borderline Self was not allowed to become “whole,” the outcome of a failure to separate and individuate from Mother during that pre-oedipal time- the curious, crawling, walking, discovering infant.  Masterson felt that the genesis of Borderline disorder is the infant getting stuck between two outcomes of separation and individuation.  The result being transfixed on Mothers reward (the on switch) and withdrawal (the off switch.)

The Borderline sees a withdrawing maternal part-image who enjoys the Borderlines helplessness and dependency. (Borderline Women and Men consistently replace this part-self image in marriage with Men and Women who foster dependency and infantilize them.)  The outcome of this withdrawing maternal image part is the idea that this person exploits- and is deliberately cruel. This triggers the fear of engulfment, but also activates abandonment depression. (The Borderline says: where will I go? Who will I cling to now?)

The rewarding maternal part-image is a strong, wonderful, idealized (all good) Mother who would save the Borderline from certain death. The outcome of the rewarding part is the *feeling good that never stays*that is, never forms the ability to self soothe without Mother- and a subsequent depression arises because that part of the self image that allows the self to feel protected is also being a helpless, clinging, needy child.

This is the failure to separate/individuate.

It took me awhile to realize this. Nothing would change. I would be and will be a scapegoat for the rest of my life. Reason enough to stop arguing about it- although I still get the urge... .It's been my greatest struggle- to let go of the outcome of something that never made sense. Now, it does. Hopefully you understand it too.  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

References:

James F. Masterson

Melanie Klein

DW Winnicott

John Bowlby

www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object_relations_theory

www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_F._Masterson
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TruthWillBeRevealed
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« Reply #35 on: September 08, 2010, 06:10:35 PM »

Thank you! This is incredibly helpful.
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RealEyes
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« Reply #36 on: September 08, 2010, 07:06:05 PM »

Excerpt
I still miss it but not the madness that erupted afterwards shocked

RealEyes, if we ever meet, fall in love and wild monkey sex, I promise not to erupt into madness afterwards. I'm just sayin'.

I love my man to control me, do what he wants to(well to a point) for i was teaching my xBPDbf to do  He was truly a good pupil, i mean lover until, uhhh,, until he tried to turn me into his personal Laptop  :'( i couldnt, or wouldnt turn off and on when he demanded me to  ?  he lost it n 3 months like i've never seen any of my Xs do, so scary but also very learning for me, as well thanks to this forum and some other factors.  I now have a TPO on him, had to, cant even go nto the same gym as me anymore (only the 1 branch of about 7) nor the library (we have 27 branches) where i work, got the order today

Men as well as Women BPDs are hard on us that truly want to love them with all our hearts only to be treated like an enemy, thank goodness for this forum!

i feel sad this all had to happen but... .
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Valentine09
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« Reply #37 on: September 10, 2010, 09:13:07 AM »

My exgf, like a lot of BPDs mentioned on here, flip-flops all the time on her feelings toward people and omits important facts.  In my book, I consider that lying.  

For example, she had sex with a guy while I was out of town, but to her  it wasn't technically intercourse but there was the possibility of her getting pregnant or an STD.  This was of course only a couple days after she told me how great a guy I am and that we might be able to have a great relationship.  I asked her why she did this at the time and she said she wanted it to happen, to be taken advantage of.  The last time I heard from her (when she was trying to win me back and I was being ultracritical of her past) she minimized the entire event by saying simply that they were naked and she did the minimum to keep the guy happy but didn't enjoy it.  Then she would flip-flop about her feelings for this guy from "he's a really great guy and a strong christian" (yeah, I don't think so) to "I don't like him, it was a purely sexual relationship, and I wasn't even really attracted to him".  

And then she would flip-flop about how she felt about me.  One day I was attractive and the next day I was completely ugly.  One hour I made her feel great and the next I was completely annoying her and she didn't want me around.  It was nuts.  

 



They can't keep their story straight, period.
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RealEyes
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« Reply #38 on: September 11, 2010, 01:09:54 PM »

Can you please tell me what kind of lies your BP told (what were they about?) , the effect on you? What happened after?

The BP lied about enjoying the same things i did, as in camping,, hiking, working out, having sex at least 3 times a week, etc... ,, the effect was me leaving Him in 3 months when he imploded again and again and again after making love. Subsequently shrapnel from Him imploding flew long and wide for 2 months.
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