Question about how pwBPD deal with grief

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

I've seen it mentioned at various places on this board that nons believe that pwBPD don't have feelings of remorse, or guilt, or actually grieve.

One of my very last conversations with my ex had to do with grief. I asked her, out of nowhere, ":)o you even grieve for us?" She stood, shocked, looking as if I had slapped her across the face. She didn't answer, but I had the idea that she never even asked herself that, and she didn't like the answer. I saw her in pain over what was happening, and this may not be a common thing. We talked bout how I had had dreams of her, and how I kept waking up, confused about where I was for a moment and reaching for her. My ex wept over this.

It's natural to grieve. I don't think they can escape it completely. Even when the connections we have with them are based upon fantasy we were good sources of validation, if nothing else. Do they just set it aside? Does it pile up in some corner to grow until it's too large to handle?  I realize that they use distractions, like finding a new lover, but then I'd think it would just add to that festering pile.

Does anyone have any information or theories about how they process this?

[restoredsight]

I've seen it mentioned at various places on this board that nons believe that pwBPD don't have feelings of remorse, or guilt, or actually grieve.

One of my very last conversations with my ex had to do with grief. I asked her, out of nowhere, ":)o you even grieve for us?" She stood, shocked, looking as if I had slapped her across the face. She didn't answer, but I had the idea that she never even asked herself that, and she didn't like the answer. I saw her in pain over what was happening, and this may not be a common thing. We talked bout how I had had dreams of her, and how I kept waking up, confused about where I was for a moment and reaching for her. My ex wept over this.

It's natural to grieve. I don't think they can escape it completely. Even when the connections we have with them are based upon fantasy we were good sources of validation, if nothing else. Do they just set it aside? Does it pile up in some corner to grow until it's too large to handle?  I realize that they use distractions, like finding a new lover, but then I'd think it would just add to that festering pile.

Does anyone have any information or theories about how they process this?

[OTH]

I haven't seen an answer to this either. I have some posts on here about me crying in front on her. I am a pretty manly guy. I don't shed tears... .so it was a pretty significant thing for me to cry in front of her. I just remember the look on her face. She was annoyed by the scene. It was very chilling to me. This was definetly a lightbulb moment for me. I didn't know about BPD yet. Later on I asked her about how she couldn't cry over us... .she told me I didn't know what she was going through. She wouldn't explain herself. She is certainly correct about that... .no reason to fake validation there. I really have no idea what she is going through. The best I have found on the web is this BPD's site. I think this is about as good an answer as you can get. I think the answer is no though. They put you out of their mind once you leave. How they are able to do this is beyond me. But they don't think like we do. They don't remember like we do.

www.untreatableonline.com/2009/10/highs-and-lows-of-BPD.html

She brought up the fact that she did cry in front of me... .but it was a wierd thing to bring up. She does this sometimes also... .she doesn't remember what happened and makes stuff up. She implied that she was crying about me but she wasn't. This is when we were first starting out and I was still split white. It was late a night and her back was turned to me in bed. I thought I heard a couple of soft sobs but I couldn't really tell. I asked what was wrong.

I knew nothing about BPD at the time and as far as I was concerned our relationship was great. Although there had been a warning sign or two already at this point. But I see she is somewhat self aware that she has a problem. The problem now is that she thinks she was crying about me this night... .and denies ever saying these things to me... .but she did! She told me she never felt bad about breaking up with her previous boyfriends. That once she broke up with them she didn't feel anything for them anymore. She said it made her feel like a bad person. She wasn't crying because or her feelings for them mind you... .she was crying because she didn't have feelings for them and she thought she should. She is highly functional. And she says that when she was young... ."she was much worse". Reading... .I see that some BPDs grow out of it (or learn to deal with it) as they get older... .she is 30... .so maybe she will get better over the years. I hope so... .but I'm not going to stick around and find out!

[Annaleigh]

I've seen that shocked how dare you face to a hard question.  I don't know what he was thinking but it was like a little drama play to act like it was a horrible thing to ask.  They usually won't answer, I don't think they have a clue how to answer.  Maybe they are thinking, look shocked, divert, danger, shut down, tangent tangent.  I dunno.

After the break up, I sent an email to uBPDh saying how hurt to the core I was that he hadn't apologized.  I didn't know about BPD at that point.  Googling about why some people don't apologize was the first key to this puzzle.

His response to that email was 'he was busy with adjusting to moving out, that he was self absorbed right now and maybe he would think about what happened later after things settled down and that he'd probably feel ashamed when he has a chance to think about it".

I guess they have a place in their brain where they can quarantine thoughts to think about later.  Later as in never.

[Annaleigh]

I've read some BPD forums.  I remember a post of a pwBPD being very upset that the feelings for their SO just 'disappeared'.  I guess it is very scary for them to have those feelings 'just gone'.  They were worried because they didn't know if they could get the feeling back.  There was no reason, nothing happened to make the feelings stop, the feelings just stopped.

I think it's like when you have a craving to eat something.  It can build and build until you have it to eat.  Then you are satiated and don't crave it anymore.  Or think about it.

[OTH]

'he was busy with adjusting to moving out'... .yup... .I got that one also. Along with... ."That just makes me angry and I can't think about it now"... .or "I need to focus on my self and don't have time for this"

[sarah1234]

My exBPDbf was affected by emotions like this, but he was scared of them and didn't know how to process them. He found a really useful tool to fall back on no matter what the scary emotion was. Get drunk! Get stoned! Don't have to think about it anymore! Which even for people without BPD is common, I mean I am probably not as well balanced as some other people, and I don't always deal with some emotions in a very constructive way.

Exbf was remorseful, and I often did see a little part of him that was honestly like a child. Terrified. After one awful dysregulation episode where he went a little psychotic on drink and drugs, I (stupidly) let him come home after a few days, where he just lay in bed for hours and hours and hours. He cried and cried and I believe those tears were real. He was scared and terrified and didn't know what to do. He knew what he had done to me and put me through, but because of his BPD he needed to preserve and protect himself first. So the moment I confronted him with MY grief and upset, he flipped out and painted me black.

so I believe they do feel but its just all different. When one of his relatives died I watched him go through some sort of grief process which was really strange, as it was what he thought he ought to do and say. There wasn't the feeling there, he knew it should be and tried to feel the feelings 

[sarah1234]

'he was busy with adjusting to moving out'... .yup... .I got that one also. Along with... ."That just makes me angry and I can't think about it now"... .or "I need to focus on my self and don't have time for this"

I think that is honestly telling you that they don't have the capacity to deal with your feelings and emotions whatsoever. Easier to shut them out. Its so hurtful to you, but how do you process something you don't understand at all?

[Annaleigh]

My T said, he was physically abusive, destroyed his marriage but can't think about it?  She said most people who've just had their marriages destroyed tend to think about it.

Dang, I can't stop thinking about it. And he can't be bothered.

Ouch.

[Annaleigh]

I have this question.  If they are emotionally stunted children, why do they physically abuse?  You don't see a lot of little kids beating the tar out of their playmates.  This is more than just emotionally immature.  This is something more than that.

They are angry.

[sarah1234]

I have this question.  If they are emotionally stunted children, why do they physically abuse?  You don't see a lot of little kids beating the tar out of their playmates.  This is more than just emotionally immature.  This is something more than that.

you do though.

I have 2 young children. In each of their classes there is at least one child who gains pleasure from being mean and violent, lacks self control, has anger issues, resentment etc.

There is actually one girl in my 8yo's class who seriously worries me. She is horribly manipulative and I have seen it first hand at a children's party. I find her a scary child. She really bothers my daughter. She homes in on her weaknesses and picks at them. The teacher sets good boundaries but it is the playground where the problems are. So it can start here for sure.

My other daughter's best friend is a scary control freak  . Here is hoping she grows out of it cos my daughter is already backing off and finds it overwhelming. But if she doesn't? Then I think adult physical violence is a huge combination of things. Control, anxiety, insecurity coupled with being bigger and more intimidating.

I was physically and verbally abused my my father as a child until I one day hit him back when I was 14 and he never did it again. He would revert to very childish behaviour and name calling. It started with taunting and smacking but it was like a knock on effect that I would say that smack didn't hurt, and he would say 'the next one will' and he would have to up his game each time,give it harder.

[brenbabe]

When ever I cried which wasnt often my exBPD would be beside himself trying to comfort me in any way he could, I was surprised after I read that most of them have no feelings for anothers pain. Maybe he was faking caring . obviously though he didnt care about hurting me, he walked out on me numerous times and would never say he was sorry or even explain why he walked out. He would come back like he never left . I had never seen him cry or talk about his feelings, except for him telling me he loved everything about me and that I was the only woman he knew that wasnt a B*tch. He told me many people had hurt him and that he had a hard life, never elaborated on how he felt about that. In the end I noticed that he was looking like a shell with nothing inside, his eyes were dark and blank. the lights were on but there was no one home so to speak.

[2010]

Does anyone have any information or theories about how they process this?

Borderline is about persecution. There are two part-time selves; one is good and one is bad. The good self is searching for reward and that reward is found in the mirrored face of a rewarding host they can attach to. Once attached, the host becomes *less* rewarding based on either relaxing their mirroring ( perhaps the host is a Hermit) or by demanding more of it from the Borderine-(perhaps the host is a malignant narcissist and subsumes the Borderline) either way, it's unsettling to the Borderline as they dont feel rewarded anymore and they feel kept as slaves and in bondage- at the whims of their partner. This is exactly how they felt in childhood.

The result is a false bond that the Borderline sees as disgust at them for attaching and disgust at those they attach to. They quickly become a bad self that withdraws from a bad host. This host then tries to control the withdrawal and things become even more persecutorial to the Borderline. They go through a wildly swinging pendulum of getting away from that host and feeling so anxious that they return trying to mirror the reward again for protection. This is the disorder. This is the reason it is "borderline to a psychosis. It is certainly a tragic love affair because of the disordered thought and it will result in many, many difficult interpersonal relationships.

There is no grieving of a lost reward unless you call it longing for the reward to return. At that point, the bad withdrawing object (that's you) wants only to talk about the problems in the relationship- which the Borderline perceives as persecution. The partner wants an explanation, but the Borderline only sees punishment for not being rewarding. The only thing left to do for the Borderline is to seek out new reward and have the compulsion repeat again with a new prospect.

Hope that makes sense.

[restoredsight]

Does anyone have any information or theories about how they process this?

There is no grieving of a lost reward unless you call it longing for the reward to return. At that point, the bad withdrawing object (that's you) wants only to talk about the problems in the relationship- which the Borderline perceives as persecution. The partner wants an explanation, but the Borderline only sees punishment for not being rewarding. The only thing left to do for the Borderline is to seek out new reward and have the compulsion repeat again with a new prospect.

Hope that makes sense.

It does.

I think this is what happened to me the last time I was in contact with my exBPD. My last text to her was "I miss you." Then a month of silence.

"I miss you" is translated into an accusation.

[2010]

"I miss you" is translated into an accusation.

Yes. "I miss you" is translated into a demand.

[brenbabe]

2010 thank you for another fantastic post. I have a question . So if what your saying is right , the borderline never mourns the loss of a relationship ? Also if the statement " I miss you" is understood by the borderline as an accusation , is there anything we could say to translate that statement into something they didnt take as an accusation?  I can see how that statemant would come across as accusatory making them feel you are accusing them of not being available enough.


I was just thinking of a day a long time ago when I said to my ex, " I love spending time with you" he flipped out yelling saying " Im doing the best I can to see you ".  wow 2010 you are on the money.

[Annaleigh]

Ok, I did not get my english to BPD translation book.   I also said I miss you.  

You guys are gonna laugh.  A month or so before the split, I printed out the emotional needs questionnaire from marriage builders and had us both fill it out.  Oh my gosh, that thing was like 10 or so pages long.  

It was stuff like, is touch important to you, on a scale how important, are you satisfied with the amount in the relationship.  Asked about how important was physical appearance.  Oh what else... .affection, sex, honesty, recreation, admiration, validation (hey!), here's the link: www.marriagebuilders.com/forms/enq.pdf you know, if you ever want to torture your partner, print it out!

My husband answered most of the questions in the middle, which meant, fine, great, satisfied with that, yay.  Me... .not so much. Oh my gosh, how funny.  We went over these at village inn with coffee and pie.  He did really good, did not get upset.  I thought ok, this is great we are talking and not getting upset.  I didn't notice him particularly aggitated afterwards and I was happy we talked.  Maybe it was benign enough that it didn't bother him that much.  

If not, oh well.  I'm not going to feel guilty for trying to improve the marriage.  That's what loving couples do.  

[RedDevil66]

My ex didn't mourn for one second.

The day I left him, he txt to tell me he could not believe what happened, he was in bed all day, can't move and can't eat. I believed him

Fast forward 3 months and I had access to his web history. Went back to the day I left him and he was on line talking ALL day to his married affair scum, playing poker and posting on his fitness site.

Then the day after I left him, I was talking to his Mom who told me he was up to see her and he was happy, smiling and on his way to the gym.

Two months after I left, we had a quick phone convo and I said "This last 2 months has been so hard, I still cannot believe all that happened. I about fell apart"

Then I asked how he was coping and he said "I've been so busy the last couple months, I've not had one minute to think about the break up"

Sick Sick Sick

[Annaleigh]

That was his false good part then?  Acting like everything is hunky dory, or is him mirroring the hunky doriness of others? Hmmm... .

What happens when a BPD hooks up with a BPD?  Any chance of success with that?

[restoredsight]

"I miss you" is translated into an accusation.

Yes. "I miss you" is translated into a demand.

I needed to hear some confirmation on this, thank you so much.

I believe I "lessened her reward" by being too realistic about the way she saw me. I couldn't fully buy into the idealization, and I'd sometimes actually call her on it.

2010, It's interesting that the information you usually share makes the most sense out of this. As a matter of fact, I don't think I would have trusted myself to believe that my ex was BPD if not for them, since she's undiagnosed. I questioned myself hard about it.

Her clinging stage was rife with child-like gestures, attitudes, and facial expressions. The thing that startled me was the hands up finger flexing that she did when she wanted me to hold her. It always recalled a small child wanting to be picked up. For the longest time I thought it was a quirk, and now I think it's unconscious.  

Near the end of the relationship she actually told me that some of my behaviors were reminding her of her mother and she had been starting some superficial endeavors under the guise of "maturity". I saw her reactions to what I was saying as being taken a whole other way. That's the "inner persecuting parent" speaking through me,as I take it now.

My ex's issues are extremely close to the surface compared to some of the BPDs I've read about here, and yet she didn't yell or criticize. She was passive-aggressive and mean in small ways. It made me feel like I may have been wrong.  

[brenbabe]

Very good question for 2010 to answer. What is it like for two BPDs to be together?  I want to know if its more comfortable for a BPD to be with another BPD ?

[Annaleigh]

Interesting:

A person with BPD typically feels desperate at the prospect of any separation - a family member’s or therapist’s vacation, break up of a romance, or departure of a friend. While most of us would probably miss the absent family member, therapist or friend, the person with BPD typically feels intense panic. She is unable to conjure up images of the absent person to soothe herself. She cannot tell herself, “That person really cares about me and will be back again to help me.” Her memory fails her. She only feels soothed and cared for by the other person when that person is present. Thus, the other person’s absence is experienced as abandonment. She may even keep these painful thoughts and feelings out of mind by using a defense mechanism called dissociation. This consists of a bizarre and disturbing feeling of being unreal or separate from one’s body.

[restoredsight]

Interesting:

A person with BPD typically feels desperate at the prospect of any separation - a family member’s or therapist’s vacation, break up of a romance, or departure of a friend. While most of us would probably miss the absent family member, therapist or friend, the person with BPD typically feels intense panic. She is unable to conjure up images of the absent person to soothe herself. She cannot tell herself, “That person really cares about me and will be back again to help me.” Her memory fails her. She only feels soothed and cared for by the other person when that person is present. Thus, the other person’s absence is experienced as abandonment. She may even keep these painful thoughts and feelings out of mind by using a defense mechanism called dissociation. This consists of a bizarre and disturbing feeling of being unreal or separate from one’s body.

Yeah, I saw my ex go through a protracted dissociation episode after she nearly grasped that something was really wrong with her. She was crying and telling me that she couldn't trust her feelings. That she felt so sure of moving out, but that it didn't make sense when she thought about it, and that she was handling things wrong.

We went out to eat and she acted bizarrely while driving, she forgot to drop our friend off at her home and then went about turning down a street thinking it was a different one and not knowing where she was for a few seconds. By the end of the night she had sorted something out and was quietly resentful, and somehow it was my fault again.

[brenbabe]

what happens when we arent the ones that leave, but the BPD is the one that leaves us , poof just like that with no reason or notice?

[brenbabe]

I wanted to correct a post I made earlier . I was asking if there was a way to tell someone with BPD we miss them without coming across as it sounding to them like a demand?  I used the word accusitory instead of demand, was to late to change the post.

[sarah1234]

Very good question for 2010 to answer. What is it like for two BPDs to be together?  I want to know if its more comfortable for a BPD to be with another BPD ?

I can't speak for everyone, and don't intend to, but anything I have read on the subject, it appears to be quite destructive. Just because people have the same condition doesn't mean it will work out any better. I don't think it makes people deeper soulmates, because I don't think they can understand each other any better, unless they are actively working on their issues and are aware of them.

[OTH]

I was reading some therapist blog where they said no way a BPD/BPD relationship can work. The NPD/BPD relationship  works and the therapist said they see them going in and out of divorce courts multiple times. They get caught in an endless cycle.

[Marcie]

So what does that make us nons? Do we have a mental illness?

[confused101]

So what does that make us nons? Do we have a mental illness?

No it doesn't, there's a big difference between mental illness and emotional baggage or issues.

[confused101]

Very good question for 2010 to answer. What is it like for two BPDs to be together?  I want to know if its more comfortable for a BPD to be with another BPD ?

I can't speak for everyone, and don't intend to, but anything I have read on the subject, it appears to be quite destructive. Just because people have the same condition doesn't mean it will work out any better. I don't think it makes people deeper soulmates, because I don't think they can understand each other any better, unless they are actively working on their issues and are aware of them.

I agree, if anything I'd suspect a more volative and accelerated relationship. Their defining quality is a complete inability to face themselves and ultimately take responsibility for who they are and how they behave.

[kem]

"I miss you" is translated into an accusation.

Yes. "I miss you" is translated into a demand.

I needed to hear some confirmation on this, thank you so much.

I believe I "lessened her reward" by being too realistic about the way she saw me. I couldn't fully buy into the idealization, and I'd sometimes actually call her on it.

2010, It's interesting that the information you usually share makes the most sense out of this. As a matter of fact, I don't think I would have trusted myself to believe that my ex was BPD if not for them, since she's undiagnosed. I questioned myself hard about it.

Her clinging stage was rife with child-like gestures, attitudes, and facial expressions. The thing that startled me was the hands up finger flexing that she did when she wanted me to hold her. It always recalled a small child wanting to be picked up. For the longest time I thought it was a quirk, and now I think it's unconscious.  

Near the end of the relationship she actually told me that some of my behaviors were reminding her of her mother and she had been starting some superficial endeavors under the guise of "maturity". I saw her reactions to what I was saying as being taken a whole other way. That's the "inner persecuting parent" speaking through me,as I take it now.

My ex's issues are extremely close to the surface compared to some of the BPDs I've read about here, and yet she didn't yell or criticize. She was passive-aggressive and mean in small ways. It made me feel like I may have been wrong.  

chadsketch - i noticed a very similar thing with my exBPDgf.  when she (in a good mood) wanted to hug me or hold me and have me hold her, she would always reach out to me with her arms extended to the fullest, wide open, with slight grasping movements in her hands and arms while being cute and giddy... .like a little child.  i've always thought that, while it was cute, it was also probably somehow a manifestation of her BPD symptoms.