Is anyones SO enmeshed w someone other than you?

[Moonbug]

My SO has an enmeshed relationship with his DD (11). It has taken me a long time to admit this, and I have been very careful to get to this point. Probably overly cautious to. One, I'm aware of the daddy-daughter dynamic at this tender age. Two, he's a single dad (partial custody) and she's experienced him all to herself her whole life- another unique dynamic. And three- I haven't wanted to be put in the position of the typical jealous gf/stepparent role. Upon meeting his sister- the information was thrown at me without asking: his sister absolutely thought I had a problem and advised me to run. She loved her brother, but definitely saw a problem. His friend politely would say a word or two, mostly just giving me kind looks and a shoulder once or twice. With my friends and family I tried to be neutral but kept in mind they would be biased no matter. They, too, thought I had a problem. Once they met the two of them and saw them together... .I got the looks and the quiet head shakes.

On Friday I finally got a professional opinion. The information still came from me, but I presented it as unbiased as I could. I don't know how well of a job I did. I tried to stick to strictly facts and left out emotions. The T's impression was yes, they were highly enmeshed, have boundary issues, and sounded like there were some child parenting the adult going on.

So I'm wondering if there's anyone else that has a SO with a similar situation they could share? I feel a bit relieved that I'm backed up with this, but I could use help. We're going into T soon, but this is just one of our problems. I could write a book on this topic alone... .

Moonbug

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[MaybeSo]

The worst case of enmeshment I saw was with my ex h and his foo. He and his sister were often mistaken for a married couple... .yuk.  No one was BPD though... .no one in his family has problems regulating their emotions... .they are just very enmeshed.  I eventually left that relationship to a large degree because that enmeshment made it difficult if not Impossible

for us to carve out our own separate lives as a couple. Trying in any way to come between this dynamic is fruitless and makes you the bad guy. This kind of stuff can be looked at if the individual is motivated for their own reasons to do so. How do u feel about being around this dynamic long term? Are you thinking you can do something to change it?  The other thing u have to be honest with yourself about is jealousy... .meaning your own. Being on the outside of these enmeshed relationships feels like... .well, like being an outsider. It was hard for me to sort out what I was feeling and how best to respond. All we can really do is take inventory of our self and take steps to best meet our own needs.

[Moonbug]

The worst case of enmeshment I saw was with my ex h and his foo. He and his sister were often mistaken for a married couple... .yuk.  No one was BPD though... .no one in his family has problems regulating their emotions... .they are just very enmeshed.  I eventually left that relationship to a large degree because that enmeshment made it difficult if not Impossible

Wow. Disturbing. There must have been signs before your marriage- were you thinking once the marriage happened the dynamic between them would change?

How do u feel about being around this dynamic long term? Are you thinking you can do something to change it?

When we first got together I thought he simply had poor relationships in the past and was prematurely defensive about his time together with her. Then more and more opened up and I really saw what I was dealing with, the more more I realized there's a good possibility this relationship cannot last long term. I then thought I could change it. I now know I can't. The change has to come from him, but he really sees nothing problematic.

The other thing u have to be honest with yourself about is jealousy... .meaning your own. Being on the outside of these enmeshed relationships feels like... .well, like being an outsider. It was hard for me to sort out what I was feeling and how best to respond. All we can really do is take inventory of our self and take steps to best meet our own needs.

I struggle with the jealousy. It's his daughter, after all. I have to balance my jealousy with compassion for her and her needs, but I've flubbed up a lot. And there are times I've caught myself asking more from him than I'm willing to give myself. Feeling like an outsider is spot on. When he gets a two-page letter from his 9yr old at the time telling him the positive and negatives of dating me, or that she wants him seeing more of his friends than me, or when we have to cancel a date with a couple to go out with her- on a weekend he isn't scheduled to have her- because she doesn't like him dating- I sit and say nothing. And neither does he. He allows it, welcomes it. And I sit in confusion because I want to be upset but I can't be- because it's his daughter.

He's lied about being on the phone with me to protect her feelings because she's sensitive. He's lied about spending time with me for the same reason. He wouldn't say "I love you" in front of her. Or write it anywhere she might see it. It goes on and on. Examples are endless and worse. Being sent home from outings where we were invited because his DD suddenly didn't like my DD there... .On the surface those sound normal and protective parenting. But this was far into our relationship when she knew we were dating. He just didn't want to deal with her insecurities and it was easier for him to lie. It was easier for him to play into her desires for him to be home, alone, doing nothing, than with me. How that benefits either one of them, I don't know.

I'm rambling. The situation is changing somewhat as her mother is moving her out of state this summer. I'm afraid he's going to go into total meltdown as to what mental manipulations will be pulled. I'm hoping for therapy, but it would be a huge stretch for him. Going on past behavior, I'd say our relationship is doomed. Last Easter his DD found out he was coming over to my place. She was scheduled to be with her mom and not seeing him. Total meltdown in front of her dad, me, my DD. Her dad was upset and decided he wasn't coming to my place and staying home alone. I asked what that was going to accomplish (I was upset- I was expecting him, as was my daughter, it was 10pm and we were just getting into the car to drive an hour to my place). He came, but I learned my lesson. He was miserable and made my and my daughters Easter miserable. His DD? She had a great Easter. She knew her dad was unhappy and maybe that's all she needed. (ok- maybe a crappy comment by me right there- but I'm not editing myself. That's my mindset. I need help. I can't have this view if I'm going to forge ahead in this relationship. See what trouble I'm in?)

I've stepped back and thought to myself that with my mindset, it's not fair to this little girl to continue. I've also considered that with some work, I can reframe my end and see what he's willing to do on his through therapy.

MaybeSo- did you two ever try T? What was your ex's view on things?

Moonbug

[shatra]

Hi--

I cann identify a bit.I feel frustrated with not seeing my BP often since he has 3 kids. I feel jealous.  You wrote that the daughter will be moving out of state this year. For a BP, that is huge---he may see that s a type of "loss". Has he talked about that?

Bye

Shatra

[stayingfornow]

I hear how hard this is for you but I have to say my greatest fears are for his dd. This is HIGHLY inappropriate parenting and I don't think you need to feel quite so bad about how you feel (if that makes sense!) Your concerns about his r/s with his dd seem well founded for many reasons.

x

[LW1968]

Ugh, yes, I've seen this same problem with my husband.  Way too enmeshed with his 9 year old daughter. 

I encouraged my husband to talk about this with his T.  I recognized a pattern he was repeating.  His mom had done this to him, so he was doing it to his daughter.  He learned a lot in T about appropriate boundaries between a parent and child that he just really didn't know about.  How could he know?  He'd never been taught what appropriate boundaries were.

The daughter is currently struggling with this because she's never had him enforce these boundaries.  We do a LOT of talking right now about her behavior... .not to correct her, or point out anything out to her, but for my H to realize that a lot of her behaviors are designed to make daddy feel guilty for enforcing boundaries.

Recognizing these things and learning from them has helped him tremendously in applying those lessons to our relationship as husband and wife. 

[MaybeSo]

In answering your question, my ex h and I saw a counselor before we split up and his enmeshment with his foo was discussed. Long story short-we agreed to disagree. Part of it was a cultural thing. Bottom-line he didn't really want to make changes in this area or didn't know how or both. It has caused problems in every relationship he has had. It's a bit different than what you are struggling with in that we were all grown adults. You are seeing enmesent or what is sometimes referred to as emotional incest and parentification of a child. My current fiancé was parentifying his 10 yr old daughter after he and ex wife first split. He made her his little buddy, let her get on match.com to help him pick out dates etc. He wasn't trying to be an ass-he had no idea this was not good father-daughter boundaries, not a clue, and his parents used him when needed in similar fashion. Luckily he had done about two years of therapy by the time I met him so therapist had already come a long way in educating him about this stuff.  If he did anything like that when I first met him I usually brought it to his attention. As for spending lots of time with his kids, I always promoted that because I believe kids go through a lot with a divorce, they need him more than I do, and I just believe that while youngsters, his kids come first.

[eeyore]

My SO is enmeshed with his ex of 17 years.  They don't have children together and they never got married.   It's been a very difficult road for our relationship to develop.  However, we have been able to overcome many of the obstacles and have been very settled and comfortable for the last year. 

[Annaleigh]

Yes, H is enmeshed with his younger D.  He is rescuer and she is victim in their r/s.  Daddy, remember when I got hurt when we were sledding?  This keeps his shame firmly in place.  He will do anything for her to keep her from being held accountable, for destroying her self growth and motivation.

There's the eagles, when they build a nest, they put sharp twigs and objects in the bottom, covered with soft cozy stuff.  When the eaglets mature to the point where they need to learn how to fly, the mom will dig up the sharp, uncomfortable objects, encouraging the eaglets to leave, fly and become grown up eagles.

H will never do this, he has molded her into a helpless dependent.

The night of the rage was due in part to me taking his D to task for being disrespectful to me.

[Annaleigh]

Oh, she is 17 but her maturity level is much younger than that... .maybe 12?

[Auspicious]

In our early years together, when I would get knocked off the pedestal, my mother in law would sometimes get put up on to it. Or my wife's coworkers. Or online "friends".

I recognize now that my vulnerability to it played a part. When she said things like "fine; I'll do XYZ with my mother then" I should have (inwardly) laughed at the absurdity and childishness of it, rather than letting it wound me.


Relating this to suggest that you detach some from the drama of this. You can't forcibly un-enmesh him and his daughter, but you can learn to identify your role and make some changes there.

[MaybeSo]

The amount or degree of enmeshment acted out is always more dramatic when my ex h becomes involved in a serious relationship. The introduction of a third party probably is threatening.  If you or someone else were not involved with him, he and his d might not be so clingy and enmeshed. Becoming less threatened yourself  and more detached will not only be better for your mental health, over time they may relax and the relationship may normalize a bit.

[Moonbug]

Hi everyone- great feedback. It's nice to know we're not alone. To address and answer some questions:

Insert Quote

Hi--

I cann identify a bit.I feel frustrated with not seeing my BP often since he has 3 kids. I feel jealous.  You wrote that the daughter will be moving out of state this year. For a BP, that is huge---he may see that s a type of "loss". Has he talked about that?

Bye

Shatra

He hasn't spoken much. I have asked if he's considered the possibility of moving, he says he won't. With us renting our house, him just this weekend moving into a family members for 6 months- ironically the exact amount of time until the lease is up on the other house he owns (and lived in before we bought ours) and could potentially move back into... .Or the exact amount of time they are moving out of state and he could move there... .my curiosity is aroused. It will be interesting to see what he does. He claims he wants to move in with me once the house I own comes off it's rental and I move in (also in 6 months). That's not

happening. No way. I need to see how he handles himself for a least a year with this whole move. Either SO "forgets" how his DD responds to him being with me, or else he has no real intention of moving in and is telling me what he thinks I want to hear.

Insert Quote

I hear how hard this is for you but I have to say my greatest fears are for his dd. This is HIGHLY inappropriate parenting and I don't think you need to feel quite so bad about how you feel (if that makes sense!) Your concerns about his r/s with his dd seem well founded for many reasons.

I agree, and I appreciate you pointing this out. I saw a card to him from her the other day where it said "We'll make it through this!" I was taken aback. I have a DD. I would be horrified if she felt she needed to hold me up through a rough time. That's my job. Not hers.

Ugh, yes, I've seen this same problem with my husband.  Way too enmeshed with his 9 year old daughter.  

I encouraged my husband to talk about this with his T.  I recognized a pattern he was repeating.  His mom had done this to him, so he was doing it to his daughter.  He learned a lot in T about appropriate boundaries between a parent and child that he just really didn't know about.  How could he know?  He'd never been taught what appropriate boundaries were.

The daughter is currently struggling with this because she's never had him enforce these boundaries.  We do a LOT of talking right now about her behavior... .not to correct her, or point out anything out to her, but for my H to realize that a lot of her behaviors are designed to make daddy feel guilty for enforcing boundaries.

Recognizing these things and learning from them has helped him tremendously in applying those lessons to our relationship as husband and wife.

It's encouraging to hear someone who's gone through this make it to the other side. How resistant was your husband? My SO is extremely defensive. I must not be the only person to have brought this to his attention because he came programmed to me like this. I'm skeptical of even a T being able to get through to him.

All of your posts have such valuable information in them and I want to address each one. I find I'm running short of time, however. MaybeSo, eeyore, Annaleigh, Auspicious- Thank you! MaybeSo, I wanted to address your last post:

Insert Quote

The amount or degree of enmeshment acted out is always more dramatic when my ex h becomes involved in a serious relationship. The introduction of a third party probably is threatening.  If you or someone else were not involved with him, he and his d might not be so clingy and enmeshed. Becoming less threatened yourself  and more detached will not only be better for your mental health, over time they may relax and the relationship may normalize a bit.

During our last huge blow up when I found out about the escort, SO went to pick up his DD for his day together. I had called and yes, we argued. His solution- unknown to me- was to put me on speaker (cell phone) in the car and proceed to have the argument with me in front of her. (I didn't know he was with her at the time. I would've expected a text saying- "Cant talk now, with DD" Then, later when I called and called and wasn't getting an answer or reply text, his DD answered and said, "Stop calling here." I later found out he instructed her to do that. Since that occurred, his ex wife filed court documents that prohibited him to see me with her, speak my name, text me, call me, refer to me, anything about me in her presence, because it traumatized his DD so much to hear us argue over the phone.  (Made it hard for me to return to the house we shared... .) I was blown away how mental trauma could occur over hearing adults argue on the phone, but I see where his ex was concerned.  He has a habit of putting her in the middle of arguments. It's very unhealthy and I don't blame her for wanting to protect her daughter. I just don't agree with how she did it. A lot of false things were alleged, and in the end it was nothing but "excited utterances" and blackmail to get him to agree to her moving, but it's made me care a lot less about being involved in what's going on between them. I haven't seen, spoke, or communicated in any way with her since September. I gave him a XMas gift to give to her, but never gave a card. I'm scared, quite frankly. I want to protect myself and my DD. So yeah... .I've backed way, way, way off and don't know if I'll ever fully reengage.

Moonbug

[LW1968]

My H was very resistant at first because nobody was allowed to say anything bad about his momma.  Same goes for his kids.  And that just ain't reality, there, folks... .bad is bad and I'll call it when I see it.

Well, I didn't really call it bad.  I started asking him how certain things made him feel, like his mom saying, "I wouldn't have treated you that way if you'd told me you were seeing a T."  That's just one example... .I also pointed out things he'd say to his daughter---mind you, with the best intentions---that just were not appropriate.  He just didn't understand it that way, and I encouraged him to talk about those things with his T. 

[MaybeSo]

I was blown away how mental trauma could occur over hearing adults argue on the phone, but I see where his ex was concerned. He has a habit of putting her in the middle of arguments.

wow... .that was so not cool of him. and that is mental trauma imho... .more than you think... .for more reasons than you probably think, it's not just that she heard you two arguing; it's that she is being triangluated.  I guess I don't see this so much as classic enmeshment but splitting and triangluating. He is USING his D.  He probably doesn't get that, and if he's not working with a therapist, or getting clear boundaries set by you or someone else... .he will probably never get it.  

My fiance' use to triangulate his kids so that they were in the middle of drama going on between him and his ex wife. whenever he did that in front of me, I basically called him on it or made normalizing statements to the kids in front of him, like "this has nothing to do with you guys, it is unfortunate that your parents don't know how to resolve conflict together... .but they are both good people, and their grown up problems really have nothing to do with you two kids", and if he was bad mouthing their mom, I would basically speak up and say something similar, that their mom is a nice person, it's just that mom and dad dont know how to talk to eachother, it has nothing to do with the them (the kids). He didn't try to triangulate them much with me... .mostly it was against his ex wife. Although at times when I left him, the kids would then get an earful of unncessary information about our relationship ... .stuff they have no business at their age having anything to do with or being harnessed with... .but he would vent adult stuff to his poor kids.  OMG, just thinking about how stupid it is to do that with your kids makes me angry just thinking about it.  Other times we would have more quiet discussion about this stuff... .and I was always so shocked on how new this was to him... .how he really never even thought about this... .how he didn't get it at all at first.

Frankly some of our worst fights we ever had were when I lost my cool with him over this kind of crap... .I never argued w/ him in front of the kids... .I would just make neutral, normalizing statements that I thought might mediate some of the crap the kids must be expereincing. But early in our relationship, when the kids were gone... .and I'd seen him pull that kind of crap... .I basically would go off on him.  Everything I would say was basically 100% in line with everything his therapists were saying... .but I would get very angry and protective of his kids because I know how damaging it is for kids to triangluated into this kind of crap. So I would come after him with guns blazing... .and he would of course get defensive and verbally abusive since my style would trigger shame etc., Oh my god, we have had many blow ups over this stuff in the past. I think my boundary was if I heard him talking that way to his kids (bad mouthing their mom, venting about adult stuff to them) that I'd leave... .I can't control what he does in his own home... .but I don't have to be there for it... .so I'd make my normalizing statments and if he didn't stop... .I'd move to the door.  He wanted me there... .He knew how strongly I felt about this... .he usually stopped and now he hardly ever does it any more.

For him to put his 11 year old D on the phone to hear a disagreement between you two... .is just not right. Certainly uncool on so many levels... .you obvsiously didn't know you were being broadcast.  And he is really messing with this little girl's head about who she is and what her role is by putting her ithat kind power position at her age... .that is really not good for her; this will be very unfortunate for her if this continues. And you are right, it's not her job to give him cards with encouraging sentiments like she's his peer or a buddy.  I would be less concerned with what it means in terms of my place with him or the D and more concerned about how clueless and immature he is as a parent in general.  Meaning, I am more concerned about the D, but if this continues this won't really work out for you... .either.  He really should be seeing  a good therapist. One of my boundaries with my fiancee was that I would not continue to be with him if he was not activly working in therapy. He has now been in therapy, including DBT for over 5 years now. We are doing really really well.

My finacee doesn't do this kind of crap anymore... .he might slip up once or twice a year and start to say something inappropriate about their mother or play the victim, but it's nothing like it use to be... he has come a long way.  He has had enough highly paid therapists tell him that this is not good for his kids.  He gets it.  It took a long time, but after about 5 years of therapy, he gets it.  The kids do not need to know about that crap that is going on between the adults... .who is disagreeing/fighting/ and why... .and be used as pawns and little ego boosting support 'objects'.

[Moonbug]

Omg! MaybeSo! YOU GET IT! Spot on!

I hear you when you say I probably don't understand about the mental trauma. It's probably said from a place of resentment for what her mother did and how she handled it, rather than really looking at his DD's welfare. I have my own selfish issues surrounding it that I need to separate out further. At one point right after reading a lot of what was in there (and there was a lot- calling me a monster, saying she was afraid I was going to kill everyone in the family, afraid her dad was going to commit suicide- some really far out things- her mom finally conceded maybe she had taken things a little too far... .) I called SO and his sister and stated there was no way I could ever reasonably be expected to be a stepparent to this child with an ex like her and a child who is that frightened of me. SO still claims his DD never said those things (and as I said, there were a lot of false things) but my condition moving forward- as well as one of his ex's was that he attend parenting classes. He went to 3 or 4 joint therapy sessions with his DD to get the court doc off record and hasn't returned. He hasn't honored my request for parenting classes. At therapy next week I'm going to ask that he attend individual counseling as a condition.

Anyway- your story reminds me of how I feel in mine. I used to try to talk with SO about the way he'd treat his DD but it ended up in arguments. And if she were anywhere near us at the time- he'd bring her into them. It was humiliating. He couldn't grasp the concept of adult-only conversations.

I don't hold much hope, which is also kinda sad. 

I do feel for his DD,  but I recognize there's simply nothing I can do for her. Not now, anyway. When we first got together and at times when we lived together we had brief times I could protect her and explain things. But it was like a little drop in a raging ocean.

Moonbug

[LightnessOfBeing]

An old thread, but I'll toss my two cents in, starting with a sadly emphatic Yes!  My fiancee is completely enmeshed with his 4 yo son/my stepson (I've been a part of his daily life since he was 19 m.o.)  While far from a clinical term, I find that the best word to describe it is "icky".  SO was completely enmeshed by his mother when he was growing up, and I'm watching him replicate the exact same smothering with his own child. Sad cycle.

He is a low-functioning Borderline who constantly seeks symbiosis (I'm thinking this here chiefly in the Melanie Klein vein), and who relies on others as the external locus of his self esteem; when I refuse to provide symbiosis, he seeks it out with the kiddo. Even when things are 'good' between he and I (i.e. I'm performing my expected role as a compliant self-object who wraps him in a veritable womb of approbation 24/7), the tenor of the dynamic between he and the child is 100% enmeshed.  It's rather gross, frankly.    NOTHING sexual, it's just very off-putting to see the smooshy-smoochy-obsessed-smothering behavior in an adult, my SO looks literally infantile when he's deepest into that mode. I half expect him to reflex-grasp the kid's finger and say "coo". (He practically does that with me.) And it's already deforming the child

On the bpdfamily page Was Part of Your Childhood Deprived by Emotional Incest?, there's a good overview of what Patricia Love has to say about enmeshment, and it's worth noting the point she makes about the nature of this kind of psychodynamic: "Very difficult to pinpoint because it is not any one behavior between Invasive parent and Chosen child that can be pointed to but rather the dynamic as a whole." You and others in this thread gave very astute (and heartbreaking) examples of specific behaviors, and that's great - but I wanted to drop this in here in case anyone was seeing what seemed like enmeshment, but couldn't quite give specific examples.

[Apropos of nothing, it pains me when I make these postings and see spelled out in black and white what I'm choosing to continue dealing with/accept in a relationship. I know why I've stayed, and the reasons aren't healthy. Bad on me for staying.]