8.06 | From idealization to devaluation - why we struggle

[cyndiloowho]

This discussion had summed up my r/s, for sure! I have definitely always been the lonely child. And I can see my H as the angry child. His anger/self has always been shame based.

In our r/s, the idealization/devaluation came in the form of ":)r Jekyll/Mr Hyde". Of course, I never heard about BPD until last year, so I could never understand how the pendulum could swing so far. And it always seemed like Mr Hyde would appear so suddenly, just when things would be going seemingly well. But, of course, when things were going well, I relaxed my stance quite a bit.

Schema model and the tenets of the therapy can help us deal with our early maladaptive schemas and move toward the "Happy Child".  

A lot makes sense now, in the context of this discussion!

[MyLife]

Much thankfulness to Clearmind, 2010, and Skip - I have read your posts several times, and am most grateful for the knowledgeable points regarding my role - my Self.

[Slowlybutsurely]

What I didn't know was that I am a classic "Lonely Child," (captured in the recent, What Helped You to Heal post).  In reading that post, I saw myself totally clearly. I also understand why there was such a draw to the the BPD ex and why our relx was so insane.  

I have a few questions, though, if anyone can answer:

1. Does this mean the relx problems were equally my fault?  And the relationship's end? Yes, the dreaded and horrible question we all agonize about so much.  It seems from the post that it was both of us. But she's PD and I am not. How to reckon all this?

2. How to fix myself? I have a therapist, but she doesn't get any of this at all. Other than that, I really like her as a T, and it was hard to find her, so I am very hesitant to give it up. Does one need a T who really understands BPD to fix the self? That's a tall order, it would seem, and I live in the Bay Area, which ain't the sticks.

Okay, I guess I had a number of questions, and maybe they aren't dumb, but you get the idea.

Happy Sunday to you all.  Hi!

[BPD Magnet 1]

What I didn't know was that I am a classic "Lonely Child," (captured in the recent, What Helped You to Heal post).  In reading that post, I saw myself totally clearly. I also understand why there was such a draw to the the BPD ex and why our relx was so insane.  

I have a few questions, though, if anyone can answer:

1. Does this mean the relx problems were equally my fault?  And the relationship's end? Yes, the dreaded and horrible question we all agonize about so much.  It seems from the post that it was both of us. But she's PD and I am not. How to reckon all this?

As you continue to grow and ''do the work''.You will see ''your part'' in all of this.You will begin to see what it is about you that attracts this and STAYS.The sad truth is,most of these relx are doomed from the get go.

2. How to fix myself? I have a therapist, but she doesn't get any of this at all. Other than that, I really like her as a T, and it was hard to find her, so I am very hesitant to give it up. Does one need a T who really understands BPD to fix the self? That's a tall order, it would seem, and I live in the Bay Area, which ain't the sticks.

Yes, i need a ''T'' who can dig deep into my past violent crazy upbringing to see where this all started for me.My answers believe it or not are in my childhood.Many many patterns i learned go hand and hand with my choices of today,tomorrow and yesterdays.

I  put me there. No one else did this to me.  I was even warned from her ex husband to run, within the first month!

Again i can only talk about my own opinion.I believe most of us that come here ''wanna vent'' and play the ''victim''.

But I wonder how many '':)O THE WORK''.

[patientandclear]

I don't think that the anyone is saying that the two people are equally causing the problem.  I think the lonely child is so very vulnerable to the overtures made by the abandoned child (pwBPD), and why once the spiral starts, the lonely child gets so locked in and it is awful to extricated her/himself.

I don't think there is any version of this where the abandoned child/pwBPD signs on for and is able to engage in a stable, open, loving, affirming r/s.

If the pwBPD tries to engage with someone who is not a lonely child, or a lonely child who is recovering and not as vulnerable as she once might have been (which I think is my story), it may be that the full spiral does not play out.  It does not mean that those people get a lovely, blissful relationship.  In my case, I drew boundaries and separated myself after one or two loops.  So I've got nothing left of the r/s ... .I just escaped with somewhat less damage than I might have earlier in my life.  And for what it's worth, it was still intensely damaging.  I've been separate from him but still trying to undo the harm caused by the collapse of the idealization, which I fully and enthusiastically bought into; and trying to accept that the boundaries I drew were correct, that I wouldn't have that blissful r/s you speak of if I had just come back for more.

[nonhere]

Not dumb questions.  Really tough questions!  I'm struggling with these questions.  

I had an immense   go on in my head when I read the description of the Lonely Child and Abandoned Child.  I am clearly the Lonely Child.  So clearly!

1. Does this mean the relx problems were equally my fault?  And the relationship's end? Yes, the dreaded and horrible question we all agonize about so much.  It seems from the post that it was both of us. But she's PD and I am not. How to reckon all this?

This question can have so many different meanings and purposes.  I'm tempted to cut to the chase and say - to you and at the same time to myself - why should it matter whose "fault" it was?

But for me to say that would be:

- cheating

- pretending that I'm further on in my struggle with this than I am;

- boring, in that it doesn't engage with my own confusion or with you.

I can only talk of my own experience, but I hope it's helpful to you and others.

It does matter whose fault it was.  Because this is a r/s that I put enormous effort and dedication into.  If there's something fundamentally wrong I've been doing, I want to know about it!  Otherwise I might do it again.  That's the key to forgiving myself for what happened.

I read this incredible analysis of the Lonely <-> Abandoned Child interaction, and one thing that jumps out at me is how partial, personal and individual my own expectations are.  I am not a "typical reasonable member of the human race" - if there is such a thing.  I am a typical Lonely Child...  Which is a particular kind of human being.  And I haven't been aware, I think, until reading the post, how much this colours my reactions to other people.

This is a bit frightening.  It means I don't have an authority to speak in judgment on my ex.  Because I don't represent humanity, or even the "good, reasonably well-adjusted" part of it.  (Again, if there is such a thing).  I am quite an odd person myself.  All I can do is be clear about how what she did affected and affects me, and hold to it: not as a final judgment, but as just my judgment - and let that be good enough.

This has been very difficult for me to do.  My particular flavour of Lonely Child is very good at never passing final judgment.  There is always more understanding to be gained, by hanging in there.  Loyalty and endurance DO get rewarded, in this world, often.  You DO uncover the treasure, after sifting through tons of dirt.  But my determination never to give up is a bit out of whack.  Exaggerated.  Sometimes some form of final judgment is needed, for action - for example, for me to definitely, finally, break off relations with my exgf. Which I never managed to do.

Lonely Children have grown up very fast, I think.  If there's one thing I'm good at, its grownup.  I might be ripping into million pieces inside, but I'll carry on.  In my Lonely Child persona, I am: resilent, enduring, independent.  Able to walk away from anything.  Including love; comfort; ease; luxury.  This is what Lonely Child is good at.  Until he/she falls apart, that is.  (And that's what this r/s has done for/to me: it's blown Lonely Child out of the water.)

So a pwBPD is incomprehensible to me.  It just blows my mind that someone can be so dependent on others, can get others to do stuff for them so easily and guiltlessly (a bit of envy on my part there, I think  , can trample on others so heedlessly.  It's hard for me to comprehend this kind of behaviour as a stable personality, rather than as a phase or crisis which the pwBPD will grow out of.

The lonely child feels that in order to deal with acting out of the Borderline- the lonely child must project the aura of grace, compassion and understanding upon the Borderline and also guide, teach and show the way- because after all, that_

[rotgut]

The post on the Lonely Child vs Abandoned Child, is the most helpful, validating, and clarifying article I have read to date on BPD. Thank you so much for posting. I am the Lonely Child. A year out and still reeling from the devaluation phase. Still trying to get back to the idealization phase, just didn't realize it until now. Wow! What a a ha moment.  My wife had no identity that was not mine. My interests were her interests, which I enjoyed, but found odd at the same time.  This makes so much sense to me. She would latch on and eventually spoil virtually everything I was interested in.

Now she is in her home country with new Mr. Prince Perfect, poor bastard. She has found her another lonely child to protect, mirror, and latch onto. Just them against the world. Until they turn on each other. At this moment I am so glad to be out of this dance and to see if for what it was. A great big illusion. No wonder I have been so confused by "her" behavior all this time.

[Slowlybutsurely]

P&C: You and I seem to go to the 'so, it was all my fault then?' thing as second nature... .Got to stop doing that!  Thanks for your clarification. I need to read the post again, to see more clearly why I was drawn to the ex in first place. There is so much in the post, that it is hard to take it all in. And especially since everything I read in it is just one   after another... .

Nonhere, this is so me: Lonely Childs have grown up very fast, I think.  If there's one thing I'm good at, its grownup.  I might be ripping into million pieces inside, but I'll carry on.  In my Lonely Child persona, I am: resilent, enduring, independent.  Able to walk away from anything.  Including love; comfort; ease; luxury.  This is what Lonely Child is good at.  Until he/she falls apart, that is.  (And that's what this r/s has done for/to me: it's blown Lonely Child out of the water.)  

I have always assumed that I am the strongest, most independent person in a room, however big the room     I have spent my entire life cultivating strength, my self, and independence. It seems I had to, given some things in childhood, and it's this I need to explore more in therapy. With the ex BPD, all of this was blown to hell and back. Just like you, it's blown Lonely Child out of the water, in a way I've never experienced. Still trying to get my mind around it. She used my strength and self to give herself a self, mirrored it back to me, I craved understanding (no one has ever understood me, quite frankly; it's always been my job to understand/save everyone else), and then all of it was twisted and thrown back at me, and she was the victim, me the abuser. Sheesh, I thought I was smart,  , but it has hard to wrap my head around it all.

I have a complaint ( ) about this board... . Some posters on here set the bar so high--in terms of understanding BPD and the nons who get involved with them--that your average or even above average therapist is going to fall short, very short.  I don't need a T to understand BPD necessarily, but I want them to have the insight into nons that some posters here have in spades. It is hard to find. If all the posters on this board were once involved with BPDs, maybe this says something about the high calibre of the Nons?    There are a lot of really smart people here.

Okay, on with my day... .

Thanks to you all, and another Happy Sunday.  Hi!

[acknowledgement]

Can you expound on that mirroring part with the BPD? I too am very strong, like Teflon, especially in crisis and in "saving" mode... .this year, however, I was down emotionally due to two tragic family deaths (suicide and terminal cancer)... .and my best friend (ha) BPD was not present or available for much compassion, no wake, funeral, etc... .and I was still expected to support her and her cycles of conflict with family members... finally, this year I emerged stronger and less tolerant of her neediness and complaining, negativity, conflicts, etc. and was less responsive and "rescuing" about them... .just told her get over it, let it go, maybe look at it this way... .I think she did not like this lack of attention, availability, and turned the tides on me painted me black over a wrongdoing perceived 2 years ago... .and silent treatment and text "not working for me". poof. done. 30 plus years of supportive best friend... .please explain more about the mirroring so I can start to explore my role in this dysfunction and never repeat it again! Also, any insight on what happened?

[HazelJade]

The fact that the Abandoned Child vs Lonely Child has been discovered by some of you gives me a great joy; for people wired to _

[findingmyselfagain]

I can certainly identify with the Lonely Child. I believe I've been running away since I was a child. My mom favored my brother over me and was often harder (sabotaging me to some degree) on me though I was a likable child. I used to go to my grandparents as a refuge or go hang out in the woods with my dog. Looking back I recognize it more as an escape than something I truly chose to do. It was a defense against a difficult environment. Yes, my mom may not be borderline but certainly very temperamental with health issues. Much like my ex pwBPD. Surreall how our r/s likely mirrored my parents' r/s, etc. It's been a gift to see my tendencies and that somehow deep inside I don't believe (or don't act like I believe) I'm worthy of someone who will treat me well.

I'm working to change all of that now. To engage life and live it the best I can. To regain my trust in others. It can be done. One day at a time.

[nocrazy]

Non here:My particular flavour of Lonely Child is very good at never passing final judgment.  There is always more understanding to be gained, by hanging in there.  Loyalty and endurance DO get rewarded, in this world, often.  You DO uncover the treasure, after sifting through tons of dirt.  But my determination never to give up is a bit out of whack.  Exaggerated.  Sometimes some form of final judgment is needed, for action - for example, for me to definitely, finally, break off relations with my exgf.  Which I never managed to do.

My friends call me the most forgiving and resilient person. They act as if it is some valiant personality trait. In reality, it is like what you describe, and I guess there are very powerful positive things about this, but, in my 10 year r/s with my BPD/NPD, it was a living heck. I wanted to get out of that dirt, to stop looking for the treasure. I also could not manage to get out of the loyalty and put self preservation at the top of the list. I see now, it was self abuse. My Lonely Child was trying to win my fathers favor.

It just blows my mind that someone can be so dependent on others, can get others to do stuff for them so easily and guiltlessly (a bit of envy on my part there, I think  ), can trample on others so heedlessly.  It's hard for me to comprehend this kind of behaviour as a stable personality, rather than as a phase or crisis which the pwBPD will grow out of.



I also have had moments of envy about how he could just be so guiltless, and have probably said it to him a million times. "I wish I was more like you... .I wish I could be this sometimes... ."

NO. I do not wish that.

Rotgut:She would latch on and eventually spoil virtually everything I was interested in.

Rotgut, mine would latch on to things and then devalue them over and over until I just hid them. ANything sacred to me went underground for fear of being annhilated.

Acknowledgement: painted me black over a wrongdoing perceived 2 years ago... .and silent treatment and text "not working for me". poof. done. 30 plus years of supposive best friend...

Ack, I have a 30 year friend with BPD who did this to me, as well. She came back after two years, and I gave her a copy of SWOE. She read it and entered therapy.

[juner]

My Lonely Child came from never being validated or acknowledged as anything other than almost an object, even though I was surrounded by people and things looked normal. As an adult, I had some success and also thought I was made of teflon because I cultivated independence and strength through hard work - not inner work, just work.

If it weren't for this site and follow-up research, I would never have been able to identify my dad as a narcissist - not diagnosed, I know, but it quacks and walks like a duck. So I felt like a zero/invisible growing up in some ways, but tried hard to overcome this. I buried those feelings, like how I felt when I was in my second year of college and my father didn't even know what school I was attending. I was an hour away from home. He didn't sound embarrassed in the least. It was just normal to never show an interest in me even though we lived under the same roof.

Just a small example, but a series of things like this made me primed for a BPD r/s, plus a couple of histrionic friendships, which I could write a book about. My siblings have had similar experiences. Talk about putting your needs last. I am a middle aged woman and it has taken me forever to finally take an indepth look at myself and ask, point-blank: what about me? What do I want? What am I willing to tolerate? I thank God every day for this site. It's really all about mental health and "doing the work."

acknowledgement, mirroring is a lot of work for them, but it feels good to the non. It's like they are copying your best qualities because they're seeking a reward and trying to fill an inner emptiness. You're also getting a payoff that fills a void. It's like looking into a mirror and seeing the good - or at least stuff that may be entertaining, stimulating and you seem validated for your talents. I guess as the Lonely Child is  just happy that someone seems so interested in them and needs them. But they grow tired of mirroring and we grow tired of the one-way street. They always turn on you. The disorder is in control.  I read somewhere here on the boards that the devaluing happens really early on, but remains hidden for a while. You think you're golden, but you're not. You never were. You're just filling a hole and you're being conditioned to keep it up and not step out of line, with subtle cues you're not even aware of.

HazelJade, I agree with the thinking that all the processing post-BPD-r/s can be seen as a gift, a lot more so if total NC is possible. With the sudden rupture in the r/s, the focus can shift - but it's a ton of work to push them out of your head and turn the attention on you, because maybe it was never there in the first place.

I often think most people on the Leaving board kept a key part of their integrity intact, despite having Lonely Child traits and facing BPD emotional abuse, or they wouldn't be here, determined to heal and grow stronger.

[maria1]

The Lonely Child v AC gave me goose pimples as I read it. I'm the Lonely Child and I've never seen me described before. I'm also attracted to other Lonely Childs and can see that they are strong, independent, sensitive people. I've been waiting all my life for someone to 'get me' in the way my ex seemed to. But he didn't.

I realised before I knew about the BPD that I was projecting qualities onto him that maybe weren't there. Because I loved him, was attracted to him, but most of all because I desperately want to be loved and noticed.

My parents were good people. But they were wrapped up in their jobs and my father, in particular was wrapped up in himself. I'm only just beginning to realise that he always put his needs above everybody elses. The thing is that's what men did in those days so it doesn't seem that unusual.

I was the youngest of two and my older brother demanded all the attention. I was never a problem really. And I was never really noticed. Except when I was meeting an egotistical need of my father's eg. acting in a play. That was about him having a talented daughter, not me being talented.

And my ex noticed me like nobody else ever had- it was uncomfortable, too much at times but it filled a gaping hole in me.

The stuff about always looking for understanding really resonates with me- I was always looking for it with my ex. He was always asking me for answers about why he behaved in certain ways then as time went on and I began to see that behind the crisis things weren't going to get better; that the issues we kept overcoming just brought new issues because he created them, he started to say I analyse everything too much.

I said no I don't it's just the way I am. Lonely Child vs AC. We didn't get each other at all after all.

And, ironically or maybe not ironic at all, now Lonely Child is completely unnoticed worse than ever before as BPD wipes out the fact that we ever existed to them. Playing out childhood all over. Painful but oh so familiar.

So... .What does an Lonely Child do once they know they are an Lonely Child? Apart from understand themselves quite a lot more and be wary of further dysfunctional relationships?

[acknowledgement]

Great Question! What does lonely child do now that they are aware and recognize themselves! I think we start to say/act/believe:

"WHAT DO I WANT... .from life, relationships,

WHAT CAN I DO FOR MYSELF... .

What makes ME happy besides FIXING RESCUING...

.what makes me feel good when I am NOT HELPING SOMEONE OR NOT FIXING SOMEONE?

Who am I?

What do I want to do?

How do I want others to treat me?

I can feel already, when we explore these questions, start to answer them and live by them, that we will NOT attract BPDs because, as my BPD friend who abandoned me told me "YOU ARE DIFFERENT". Yes, thank you, I AM! I have emerged and I am exploring who I am outside of a dysfunctional controlling relationship! Join the journey fellow Lonely Child!... .and maybe, just maybe, we thank our BPD experience for releasing us to higher possibilities!

[maria1]

Was actually just thinking I may need to start posting on the Personal Inventory Board. It makes me a little nervous but I think these posts are possibly for there. The analysis is for me now and not for him.

I was much, much more comfortable analysing somebody else's f***d upness! Guess there's another big clue as to why I stayed in it.

My ex taught me a lot about myself in his behaviours. I need to give him that. And he taught me to be less understanding at times and, whilst I would never advocate BPD as a way of life, it did start me wondering if I forgive and understand too much at times. Never have guessed I'd end up here though.

So in some ways we can thank the BPDs. It means we are all getting somewhere I think.

Scary!

[nylonsquid]

The Lonely Child schema hit me. It resonated with me and though I help others lots, I have been disappointed by others that I try to understand. It's because they don't understand me back. I learnt now to help others but never at my own compromise and well being. It's still a struggle as I try to find a fulfilling life with an understanding and complimentary partner. All my life I've been making films that explore abstract ideas (trying to make sense of things) and interpersonal dramatic relations and I realize I'm only trying to understand others in a twisted way of understanding myself. I'm projecting my inner exploration.

Lonely would definitely be a feeling I carry through my life.

I would like to add what I believe Lonely Child is not a term that defines us but a term that is with us. Meaning that all types of personalities have an inner lonely child but it is more evident in some. And in order for BPDs to attract another, they need to be a mirror for someone who's in a lonely child 'stance' who will bring forth understanding. This understanding trait is what defines a lot of us on here and it is something that BPDs strive on. They know they make no sense and they know that an understanding person will latch on trying to make things work. It is devastating to a partner because personally, being understanding is what defines a lot of myself and the walls of understanding collapsed before me. It hurt when I realized that all my efforts where in vein. Not only that, but I was manipulated and crushed by whom I thought was a worthy person that needed... scratch that... DEMANDED it.

[Slowlybutsurely]

There's so much good stuff on this post; thanks to you all.

I asked my T today--so, okay, I am a Lonely Child--what to do?  She suggested that I try to 'feel' how I might have felt as a kid in various circumstances, as a way of healing, somehow. I guess healing is the word? Unlike the exBPD, I haven't seen myself as in need of core healing in the same way. I didn't have a traumatic childhood, and no abuse; but general indifference characterized my growing up. So, I responded to that by becoming strong in so many ways, and I was definitely lonely. Okay, so I'll try to tap into the little squirt that I was back then, and feel the feelings, and then... .  maybe that will be enough?  Plus of course trying to do as NylonSquid suggested, and figure out what I want/how I want to be treated. And resolve never again to be roped into the Rescuer. Ooh, that is a hard one. I love to rescue. But unless we're talking about a little kitty cat or puppy, I need to resist the urge. There is something so compelling about rescuing a damsel in distress and then hoping/praying she loves me in the end... .  But I saw how that worked last time,     

So, feeling the feelings, and be more aware. That's about all I can think of now. I don't know if my therapist is very good, because I wonder if she should have more ideas? 

I was actually envious a little of my ex, when she started a 12-step support group, for all her problems. She had instant community and friends, and had such big problems that so many people joined in to help her. I never get that,    I kind of wish I did. But I don't need it, I guess? But that's part of it. I never need anything or anyone, because I've always taken care of myself (no choice on that one).  "Healing" a lonely child is a bit complicated, it seems. At least to me.

Happy Tuesday. 

[nocrazy]

Here is a question in reference to the Lonely Childhild

Has anyone found any good self talk type practice, or whatever to snap out of obssessing about where the ex is and what and who, etc?

I find myself doing it, even if I kind of dont care. It is like a habit.

I have Limited Contact, due to our son, and ex mentioned he has plans for tomorrow evening, that he has a 4th of July party to go to.

I got stuck. Just for a second. And I wondered. thank God I did not ask any questions, just wondered for a minute when I hung up. If he found the replacement yet.

[LetItBe]

Yes, the Lonely Child/Abandoned Child schema rings so true for me and my exBPD, too.  It was almost overwhelming to read... .so dead-on accurate.  I'm going to have to read it again (and probably again and again) to fully grasp it.

Kind of off-topic -- but -- I wonder if 2 Lonely Child's (recovered or recovering) would make for a more stable relationship?

[maria1]

For me the lonely child in me /is seeking somebody who recognises all the things in me that I like and appreciate about myself. Because nobody noticed me as a child.

My ex wasn't exactly like me and was very different in some ways but the fact that he loved the things about me which I loved about myself was huge for me. I was in love with his love for me, not in love with myself, but maybe that's like looking in a mirror?

[Slowlybutsurely]

And Maria, what you've said makes sense to me... .that I can get my (little) mind around!

And I'll join HowPredicatable in expressing my thanks for the original Lonely Child post, which has done so much in helping me to understand myself.

[Skip]

1. Does this mean the relationship problems were equally my fault?  And the relationship's end? Yes, the dreaded and horrible question we all agonize about so much.  It seems from the thread that it was both of us. But she's PD and I am not. How to reckon all this?

2. How to fix myself? I have a therapist, but she doesn't get any of this at all.

This is a very thoughtful thread and it's great to see the participation. It will beckon a few to advance and take that next all important step in healing - personal inventory.  Personal inventory is the hardest and most rewarding step of all.  Hard and rewarding.  Like learning to ski or learning to dive - it's discouraging and painful on the outset.  I can see a few struggling with that now and some will turn away in denial.

There is a reason we hurt. Pain is what drives us to break through and get beyond our own coping mechanisms and search for the real answer to our struggles - to fix what is defective and live a life that is not marred by a fixable emotional defect.

But getting past the protective coping is the key... .and hard.  We can all see how a pwBPD struggles to do this.  We struggle too. We are often so fearful of pain that we do anything we can to avoid it - alcohol, get a new partner, blame others.  And we are often so fearful of facing our own weaknesses, that we look everywhere else but at ourselves.  But the bottom line is that the person pwBPD is gone now and all that is left is to fix ourselves.

If you want to start to understand the "Lonely Child" (more commonly referred to as the "Vulnerable Child", start with a little reading about Jeffery Young's schema.  Here is a little blurb to get started:

The conceptual model for narcissism revolves around schema modes, which are defined as separate facets of the self that have not been fully integrated with each other.

The patient is characterized by three modes:

• the Lonely Child, who feels lonely and devalued;

• the Self-Aggrandizer, who overcompensates through entitlement and approval-seeking; and

• the Detached Self-Soother, who seeks stimulation to avoid painful affect.  

The patient alternates between the Self-Aggrandizer and Detached Self- Soother modes to avoid experiencing the isolation of the Lonely Child.

Schema therapy treatment includes helping the patient value nurturing and empathy more than status and approval; combating entitled behavior; accessing early feelings of loneliness and defectiveness.

Who of you that identify with the "Lonely Child" are ready to take this on?

Who of you that identify with the "Lonely Child" are struggling to break through your own coping mechanisms?

[Slowlybutsurely]

Skip: Thank you so much for this!  At this point, I am determined to work on myself, and 'fix' whatever it is that led me to the relx with the BPD ex in the first place.

I also need to think carefully about possibly finding a new T. My current T doesn't understand BPD, and therefore, I don't think she understands me. In fact, I've read her stuff from this site, to try to educate ( ) her, and it's clear she's hearing it for the first time. I figure if someone can understand BPD, they can understand anything, and possibly even me. I don't think I'm that hard to understand, but it sure seems hard to find a T with real insight and expertise on anything tangible.

Hi!

[nocrazy]

Skip,

can you post a link to the entire original text of this?

I can see the self aggrandizing  part in me that comes out to avoid pain, but, I cannot see as clearly the detached self soother. I tend to have a deficiency in the self soothing arena.

Also, all this new information is really flooding me. I have bells going off all over the place, and I thought of something very important for me:

I belive now, that I had a childhood and early adulthood which set me up to be a shoe in for BPD. I was sexually abused as a child, my dad died when I wa 13, my mom was present but emotionally cold. I was re assaulted as a teenager, and had done some weird self harming, but never cutting, or anything extreme. I also never black/whited people, or cut them out of my life. I usually remained close with people I had been imtimate with, and also had the fortune of several longer term relationships.

.

I think what I am seeing is that when I was around 21 years old, I sought help. I went to therapy for ten or so years, working on various things, eventually coming to a place when I was around 27 where I started doing EMDR therapy. I released a great deal of trauma from my chilhood, and went on to have 2 very healthy, balanced and long term relationships in my 30s. I was able to develop a strong identity, and good, solid friendships, did family therapy with my FOO, as a result of my work on myself. My whole family benefited from it. I have had an excellent and successful career in the public eye, and had a good self esteem.

BUT, I took my foot off the snake so to speak... .I stopped doing the work, and when I met my recent ex H uBPD/NPD husband, I was caught unawares, LOL.

All the still unhealed stuff played so deeply into him, from the very start. Ten years later, my self esteem is so eroded. I have always had a very strong sense of identity. I even feel that I have used this relationship to punish myself out of guilt for my fathers death. (It was blamed on me, openly by my mother).

The earlier work that I did, I think may have worked out the Abandoned Child issues in me, but I still have the serious Lonley child complex.

Is this possible? That I somehow, in my earlier years was able to avert becoming fully BPD? And instead, while unravelling, healing, and processing the most deep issues around abandonment trauma, still retain the closer to the surface issues around being the Lonely Child?

It can seem, while reading these schema, that there is a very fine line between the two. Almost like a spectrum disorder.

Some children are very autistic, some are just a touch autistic... .like that... .

ANy thoughts?

[nocrazy]

Also, 2010,

My question is: did you write it yourself, or adapt it from other text?

What is the origin of the post?

Very helpful, in ANY case!

[nocrazy]

Oh, Thanks SOO Much, Skip!

Very useful for me!

Skip, I wonder if you read my previous post, about possibly being set up as a BPD, but through early long term therapy avoiding that, but retaining some Lonely Child tendencies (term used loosely, here, LOL.)

The description of the lonely child in your post above is exactly me. Especially "The Lonely Child is also prone to try to hold the relationship together long after it has turned bad as they are tolerant and often feel deserving of bad treatment." I feel/felt defective, deprived, and unloveable. My BPD/NPD would say, "who will want you?" and I believed that. I already had that tape running in my own head.

So, this is thought to be running on a spectrum? Like Autism is?

What is the main difference, or separating factor, as I said... .They run so close together. What would be the main thing that would cause a T/expert to deem a person the BPD over the Lonely Child?

I am on the Lonely Child end of the spectrum, I believe, as I really do not idealize/devalue, nor do I have general black/white thinking patterns. I continued to maintain friendships even though I felt I had been done wrong. I have the ability to accept rejection. I do not self harm, except through this abusive relationship. I do, however have rage at my ex BPD/NPD H.

[Want2know]

What would be the main thing that would cause a T/expert to deem a person the BPD over the Lonely Child?

nocrazy - we can have multiple schema and switch between schemas.  This is what Skip meant by this thread being a bit over simplified (but helpful).  BPD is typically associated with 5 main schemas.  NPD is typically associated with three main schema (see below).

The conceptual model for narcissism revolves around schema modes, which are defined as separate facets of the self that have not been fully integrated with each other.

The patient is characterized by three modes:

• the Lonely Child, who feels lonely and devalued;

• the Self-Aggrandizer, who overcompensates through entitlement and approval-seeking; and

• the Detached Self-Soother, who seeks stimulation to avoid painful affect.  

The patient alternates between the Self-Aggrandizer and Detached Self- Soother modes to avoid experiencing the isolation of the Lonely Child.

A personal inventory, like learning to ski, it is a long process.  Stay with it. Take it one step at a time.  :)on't get hung up on labels - it tends to drive denial. Just look at what you wrote.  Some fear is showing.  Be brave.  

You, and many others, can identify with these maladaptive schema.  It's a blessing to see this.  Know you have a solid lead to follow in your personal inventory exploration.

[nocrazy]

Want2Know,

Yes, there is fear in my post.

I have been through the ringer, LOL;

And I have come out pretty balanced, and have had many professional Therapists feed that back to me... .

But, I got mixed up in this again, and I am embarrassed, and its been a long time. I have lost the respect of some friends and family members who could just not understand why I would not leave.

I am very committed this time, to not leave my healing half baked. I want to have a fork stuck in me. I am 43, for Gosh sakes.

I have a 7 year old, and I am very vigilant about providing all the presence and limits and true love that I missed, that My BPD/NPD H did not get/ cannot give.

I feel pressure to do this right.

I will not get into another r/s until I at least have some clear ideas about this.

I have ordered a lot of books, read several already.

So, yeah. There is fear in there, and all I can do is keep moving, but. Yeah I am really afraid to lie to myself again, and tell myself its all healed over, and that I can trust my radar. In parenting, in partnering, in work.

Thanks

[Slowlybutsurely]

I am very committed this time, to not leave my healing half baked. I want to have a fork stuck in me. I am 43, for Gosh sakes.

Don't feel alone, nocrazy!   xoxo

Right there with ya. I have a squirt too. And I was a dipsh**. And a fork plunged into my innards (and then twisted, for added effect) sounds good sometimes,  

But guess what?  We cannot change the past. What we can do is: Change Now, and never go back. Ever. Ever ever ever. But you know that. Don't kick yourself; instead use that momentum to move forward.

You can do it!