8.06 | From idealization to devaluation - why we struggle

[Want2know]

We cannot change the past. What we can do is: Change Now, and never go back. Ever. Ever ever ever. But you know that. Don't kick yourself; instead use that momentum to move forward.

You can do it!  

I agree!

But getting past the protective coping is the key... .and hard.  We can all see how a pwBPD struggles to do this.  We struggle too. We are often so fearful of pain that we do anything we can to avoid it - alcohol, get a new partner, blame others.  And we are often so fearful of facing our own weaknesses, that we look everywhere else but at ourselves.  But the bottom line is that the person pwBPD is gone now and all that is left is to fix ourselves.

To me, this sums up the main idea that both Clearmind's workshop and 2010's post are trying to get at... .we need to better understand what is causing our pain and then take steps to do something about it.  It's about ownership, being accountable, and using that momentum, as you said SlowlybutSurely.  That is why we have that workshop and why we have the Personal Inventory board - to explore the origin of our pain and then make conscious decisions on how to heal.

Schemas are interesting and informative concepts, but are geared more towards those with long term personality defects, which you will find if you dig more into Schema Therapy.  It seems most of the folks posting on this thread can relate to these concepts, however it doesn't necessarily mean we are "defective". 

Skip points out some great questions:

Who of you that identify with the "Lonely Child" are ready to take this on?

Who of you that identify with the "Lonely Child" are struggling to break through your own coping mechanisms?

After reading many, many threads and posts on the Leaving board, I have to say that I think there are many of you ready to take on this challenge, more than you think.  It's about acknowledging our pain, no longer escaping from it, and doing something different.   

[bpdlover]

I had very little sense of responsibility to myself by entering into an association that I knew would hurt me. Despite leaving a large percentage of my childhood behind and/or developing coping mechanisms that had delivered me an outwardly successful life, I was the lonely child, searching to be understood and accepted by attempting to understand a challenging persona. Some may term it inverted narc, altruism and co-dependent. I have read many publications and links here, there and everywhere. The fits are not pure but there are elements. I know that my Mother was overly affectionate and lived "in check" often projecting her rationalisations and fears onto me. I was not ignored as a child, quite the opposite. I was touched all the time by her. It scared me. I feel sad saying this because I feel for her. She didn't abuse me or touch anywhere inappropriate but I didn't understand it. This deep sadness was something I felt growing up. I believed I had to protect her. I had a really good conversation with her yesterday and finally heard some honesty from her. These only occur once a decade though and then she caps it off with a justification or subject change so absolutely nothing gets addressed. The conversation happened as a result of setting some strong boundaries and standing up to her. I have often felt victimised, should I show any sort of individuation. Like my ex's family, this "separate" behaviour is considered almost criminal. Issues in facing a new level of responsibility in my life, plus the bait to fix the BPD, was the hook and I would have fought to the end of myself to help her. I wanted to make her healthy. Over the years, I have come to know who my Mother is and let go of many of those pieces that are not mine to hold on to. There are challenging days from time to time but the pain is worth the freedom, development and security of my real self. Unfortunately though, it may be a lifetimes work.

[Skip]

One thing is for certain: these ways of dealing (with loss) are usually set by the time you are in your teens. The key to understanding them lies in self reflection in the aftermath of perceived failure. Why you feel things and what it means is something you've never understood until now. Possibly unknown to you at the moment, that perceived failure is actually a success. That's a good thing. Painful, yes, but good.

The hope is that you'll realize your pattern and uncover the root causes for it, deal with the root causes and then emerge with an acceptance of your perceived failure <<and yourself.>> Acceptance means creating change. Change hurts.

I think many of us, particularly in the immediate aftermath of relationship failure, look very narrowly at what transpired - last week or last month - and that's not going to tell us much.  In time, we naturally broaden our view a bit.

I think the point above is an important one.  We need to broaden our postmortem all the way back to childhood and look for the indicators and roots of what it is that we are struggling with today.  It's not just a difficult partner - it goes deeper than that.

This process may take while - but it will be shorter if we reach for it - longer if we fear it.

I've had the opportunity to see many people make this journey.  It changes them... .for the better.

[Suzn]

This is a great topic.  

Schema Mode-Lonely Child / Vulnerable Child  The  Lonely Child / Vulnerable Child feels lonely, isolated, sad, misunderstood, unsupported, defective, deprived, overwhelmed, incompetent, doubts self, needy, helpless, hopeless, frightened, anxious, worried, victimized, worthless, unloved, unlovable, lost, directionless, fragile, weak, defeated, oppressed, powerless, left out, excluded, pessimistic.  The Lonely Child is prone to act in a passive, subservient, submissive, approval-seeking way around others out of fear of conflict or rejection; tolerates abuse and/or bad treatment; selects people or engages in other behavior that directly maintains the self-defeating schema-driven pattern.

Wow this says it all doesn't it? I know I could identify with alot in this schema in my past. I can admit to approval seeking, doing things for others so they would "like" me, or feeling incompetent, powerless, lonely, etc... So I can also admit to using maladaptive coping skills to avoid the pain. Getting myself into relationships to avoid being and feeling alone. I've also pretended to shrug off the pain as if it hadn't affected me. All these things point to my role in my past relationships. I now have to be accountable for my part. Not only that but be responsible for what my future holds if I wanted to grow. I had to become real honest with myself.

So what now? How do we change this schema we all have identified with? For me, I had to look back at my childhood and where I learned these behaviors to move forward. Educate myself on MY issues. This led to building my self esteem. Knowledge IS power. Being accountable also helped with self esteem. Spending time alone was key, I had to face the fears I had with loneliness. I had to learn to identify these emotions as well. Am I really angry or disappointed and hurt?

Working on you is just that... work. It's an investment... in you.

[bb12]

Ok so now I'm confused!

I am the Lonely Child and my exBPD is the Abandoned Child, but I am not prone to act in all of the ways describe: a passive, subservient, submissive, approval-seeking way around others out of fear of conflict or rejection; tolerates abuse and/or bad treatment; selects people or engages in other behavior that directly maintains the self-defeating schema-driven pattern

If anything, i think my ex was more passive and subservient. I was more approval-seeking and 'other' focused. And I have a pattern of self-defeating choices.

I am not risk-averse or low-confront. I will state my case.

Suzn: do you have the schema mode for the Abandoned Child?

thanks

BB12

[Suzn]

Schema Mode-Abandoned/Abused Child   The borderline patient is seen as being motivated by four or five schema modes that make up an inner theater that is filled with pain and conflict. The Abandoned/Abused Child mode is the core schema of the patient.  This is a child who lives in fear and terror and who has no allies in the world.  People in this mode are quite frightened and troubled.  Jeffery Young, PhD and founder of Schema Therapy, stresses that psychologically and emotionally, borderline patients are little children around the age of 4 or 5.  In times of difficulty or high stress, it is helpful to try to see them as children instead of adults.  "Connection", for the Abandoned/Abused Child, is a matter of survival, and this drives much of the intensity that is found in the relationships of these patients.

Here it is bb12. As skip says this is a great tool for personal inventory. Where do you identify? What are your coping skills? These are the questions to ask ourselves.

[Want2know]

Ok so now I'm confused!

I am the Lonely Child and my exBPD is the Abandoned Child, but I am not prone to act in all of the ways describe: a passive, subservient, submissive, approval-seeking way around others out of fear of conflict or rejection; tolerates abuse and/or bad treatment; selects people or engages in other behavior that directly maintains the self-defeating schema-driven pattern

As mentioned earlier, these are general descriptions of the schema, not required criteria.  This test will give you a better idea if this schema fits you... .

Here is a test.  

What is your total score?  Let us know in the poll above and tell us (post) whether you feel good or are you struggling from effects of the BP relationship?

For your entire adult life:

1= Never     2=Rarely     3=Occasionally       4=Frequently      5=Most of the time       6= All of the time  

Never -------- 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1

Rarely -------- 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2 2

Occas -------- 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3 3

Freq -------- 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4 4

Mostly -------- 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5 5

Always -------- 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6

Question ----------- I feel fundamentally inadequate, flawed, or defective I feel lost I feel desperate I feel lonely I feel humiliated Even if there are people around me, I feel lonely I often feel alone in the world I feel weak and helpless I feel left out or excluded I feel that nobody loves me

   

To score:  Add the numbers you circled and divide by 10.    

Score ------------ 0.0-1.5 1.6 - 2.5 2.6 +

Interpretation ---------------- Normal   Abnormal   Seriously Abnormal

The term "schema" was developed by Piaget and was used in his Cognitive Development theory.  :)r. Young referenced this theory, amongst others, using the concept of schemas, with his own interpretation, creating Schema Therapy.  Here is a general summary taken from the home page of the link referred to in reply #42:

"Schema therapy is an innovative psychotherapy developed by Dr. Jeffrey Young for personality disorders, chronic depression,  and other difficult individual and couples problems. Schema therapy integrates elements of cognitive therapy, behavior therapy, object relations, and gestalt therapy into one unified, systematic approach to treatment. Schema therapy has recently been blended with mindfulness meditation for clients who want to add a spiritual dimension to their lives."



If you do not have a personality disorder, chronic depression, etc. this may not fully apply to you.  It is just a way for those who practice this type of therapy to categorize their patients and develop a way to work with them in therapy.

Here's an example that may help... .when I took an Abnormal Psych class in college, after reading each disorder, there were parts of the behaviors that I could identify with, however, I'm fairly certain I did not actually have all those disorders (ie. OCD, bi-polar, eating disorders, etc.). But I do have some issues.     Don't get caught up with labels.  If you are struggling to cope, if you score high on a depression test, a PD test, or a schema test, it's an indication that you probably have some work to do. See a professional to get a better understanding of what is going on and how to deal with it.

Does that help?  

[bb12]

Thank you so much Want2Know!

Yes, your post and examples helped enormously

I am blown away by the generosity of Ambassadors and others on here. That was a generous commitment of time and thought.

I am very grateful

And thanks to you Suzn for the abandoned child bit

Bb12 xx

[Slowlybutsurely]

Thanks to all who have offered so much insight and information on this thread.

You guys are the BEST! 

[ellil]

This is an awesome thread, and thank you to 2010 and to Skip, and to everyone else. All the Lonely Child/Abandoned Child threads are so full of impact if you fit the Lonely Child schema, as I most definitely do.

I think for most of us who do fit Lonely Child, the only way to heal that kid is by going back and dealing with the emotional wounds we experienced that went untreated.

M

[Skip]

To find out what your Schemas are: go to the Young Schema Questionnaire (YSQ)  https://bpdfamily.com/pdfs/schema_inventory.xls

This is an excellent personal inventory test to take - 124 questions - you can print it out and score yourself.  This gets at all the schemas, not just the lonely child.

If you struggle with any of these domains - take the test - see where it points you.  

DISCONNECTION & REJECTION

(Expectation that one's needs for security, safety, stability, nurturance,  empathy, sharing of feelings, acceptance, and respect will not be met in a predictable manner. Typical family origin is detached, cold, rejecting, withholding, lonely, explosive, unpredictable, or abusive.)


1.  ABANDONMENT /  INSTABILITY   (AB)

The perceived instability or unreliability of those available for support and connection.  Involves the sense that significant others will not be able to continue providing emotional support, connection, strength, or practical protection because they are emotionally unstable and unpredictable (e.g., angry outbursts), unreliable, or erratically present; because they will die imminently; or because they will abandon the patient in favor of someone better.

2.  MISTRUST / ABUSE   (MA)

The expectation that others will hurt, abuse, humiliate, cheat, lie, manipulate, or take advantage.  Usually involves the perception that the harm is intentional or the result of unjustified and extreme negligence. May include the sense that one always ends up being cheated relative to others or "getting the short end of the stick."

3.  EMOTIONAL DEPRIVATION (ED)

Expectation that one's desire for a normal degree of emotional support will not be adequately met by others.  The three major forms of deprivation are:

A. Deprivation of Nurturance:  Absence of attention, affection, warmth, or companionship.

B. Deprivation of Empathy:  Absence of understanding, listening, self-disclosure, or mutual sharing of feelings from   others.

C. Deprivation of Protection:  Absence of strength, direction, or guidance from others.

4.  :)EFECTIVENESS / SHAME  (DS)

The feeling that one is defective, bad, unwanted, inferior, or invalid in important respects; or that one would be unlovable to significant others if exposed. May involve hypersensitivity to criticism, rejection, and blame; self-consciousness, comparisons, and insecurity around others; or a sense of shame regarding one's perceived flaws. These flaws may be private (e.g., selfishness, angry impulses, unacceptable sexual desires) or public (e.g., undesirable physical appearance, social awkwardness).

5.  SOCIAL ISOLATION / ALIENATION   (SI)

The feeling that one is isolated from the rest of the world, different from other people, and/or not part of any group or community.


IMPAIRED AUTONOMY & PERFORMANCE

(Expectations about oneself and the environment that interfere with one's perceived ability to separate, survive,  function independently, or perform successfully. Typical family origin is enmeshed, undermining of child's confidence, overprotective, or failing to reinforce child for performing competently outside the family.)


6.  :)EPENDENCE / INCOMPETENCE (DI)

Belief that one is unable to handle one's everyday responsibilities in a competent manner, without considerable help from others (e.g., take care of oneself, solve daily problems, exercise good judgment, tackle new tasks, make good decisions). Often presents as helplessness.

7.  VULNERABILITY TO HARM OR ILLNESS  (VH)

Exaggerated fear that imminent catastrophe will strike at any time and that one will be unable to prevent it. Fears focus on one or more of the following: (A) Medical Catastrophes:  e.g., heart attacks, AIDS;  (B) Emotional Catastrophes:  e.g., going crazy;  (C): External Catastrophes: e.g., elevators collapsing, victimized by criminals, airplane crashes, earthquakes.

8.  ENMESHMENT  /  UNDEVELOPED SELF   (EM)

Excessive emotional involvement and closeness with one or more significant others (often parents), at the expense of full individuation or normal social development.  Often involves the belief that at least one of the enmeshed individuals cannot survive or be happy without the constant support of the other.   May also include feelings of being smothered by, or fused with, others  OR  insufficient individual identity. Often experienced as a feeling of emptiness and floundering, having no direction, or in extreme cases questioning one's existence.  

9.  FAILURE  (FA)

The belief that one has failed,  will inevitably fail, or is fundamentally inadequate relative to one's peers, in areas of achievement (school, career, sports, etc.). Often involves beliefs that one is stupid, inept, untalented, ignorant, lower in status, less successful than others, etc.


IMPAIRED LIMITS

(Deficiency in internal limits,  responsibility to others, or long-term goal-orientation. Leads to difficulty respecting the rights of others, cooperating with others, making commitments,  or setting and meeting realistic personal goals. Typical family origin is characterized by permissiveness, overindulgence, lack of direction, or a sense of superiority -- rather than appropriate confrontation, discipline,  and  limits in relation to taking responsibility, cooperating in a reciprocal manner, and setting goals. In some cases, child may not have been pushed to tolerate normal levels of discomfort, or may not have been given adequate supervision, direction, or guidance.)


10.  ENTITLEMENT / GRANDIOSITY  (ET)

The belief that one is superior to other people; entitled to special rights and privileges; or not bound by the rules of reciprocity that guide normal social interaction. Often involves insistence that one should be able to do or have whatever one wants, regardless of what is realistic, what others consider reasonable,  or the cost to others;  OR an exaggerated focus on superiority (e.g., being among  the most successful,  famous,  wealthy)  -- in order to achieve power or control (not primarily for attention or approval).  Sometimes includes excessive competitiveness toward, or domination of, others:  asserting one's power, forcing one's point of view, or controlling the behavior of others in line with one's own desires---without empathy or concern for others' needs or feelings.

11. INSUFFICIENT SELF-CONTROL / SELF-DISCIPLINE (IS)

Pervasive difficulty or refusal to exercise sufficient self-control and frustration tolerance to achieve one's personal goals, or to restrain the excessive expression of one's emotions and impulses.  In its milder form,  patient presents with an exaggerated emphasis on discomfort-avoidance:  avoiding pain, conflict, confrontation, responsibility, or overexertion---at the expense of personal fulfillment, commitment,  or integrity.

OTHER-DIRECTEDNESS

(An excessive focus on the desires, feelings, and responses of others, at the expense of one's own needs -- in order to gain love and approval, maintain one's sense of connection, or avoid retaliation.  Usually involves suppression and lack of awareness regarding one's own anger and natural inclinations. Typical family origin is based on conditional acceptance: children must suppress important aspects of themselves in order to gain love, attention, and approval.  In many such families,  the parents' emotional needs and desires -- or social acceptance and status -- are valued more than the unique needs and feelings of each child.)


12.  SUBJUGATION  (SB)

Excessive surrendering of control to others because one feels coerced - - usually to avoid anger, retaliation, or abandonment. The two major forms of subjugation are:

A. Subjugation of Needs:  Suppression of one's preferences, decisions,  and desires.

B. Subjugation of Emotions: Suppression of emotional expression, especially anger.

   

Usually involves the perception that one's own desires, opinions,  and feelings are not valid or important to others. Frequently presents as excessive compliance, combined with hypersensitivity to feeling trapped. Generally leads to a build up of anger, manifested in maladaptive symptoms (e.g., passive-aggressive behavior, uncontrolled outbursts of temper, psychosomatic symptoms, withdrawal of affection, "acting out", substance abuse).

13. SELF-SACRIFICE (SS)

Excessive focus on voluntarily meeting the needs of others in daily situations, at the expense of one's own gratification.  The most common reasons are:  to prevent causing pain to others;  to avoid guilt from feeling selfish;  or to maintain the connection with others perceived as needy .  Often results from an acute sensitivity to the pain of others. Sometimes leads to a sense that one's own needs are not being adequately met and to resentment of those who are taken care of. (Overlaps with concept of codependency.)

14.  APPROVAL-SEEKING  /  RECOGNITION-SEEKING  (AS)

Excessive emphasis on gaining approval, recognition, or attention from other people, or fitting in, at the expense of developing a secure and true sense of self.  One's sense of esteem is dependent primarily on the reactions of others rather than on one's own natural inclinations.  Sometimes includes an overemphasis on status, appearance, social acceptance, money, or achievement --  as means of gaining approval, admiration, or attention (not primarily for power or control). Frequently results in major life decisions that are inauthentic or unsatisfying;  or in hypersensitivity to rejection.


OVERVIGILANCE  & INHIBITION

(Excessive emphasis on suppressing one's spontaneous feelings, impulses, and choices OR on meeting rigid, internalized rules and expectations about performance and ethical behavior -- often at the expense of happiness, self-expression,  relaxation, close relationships, or health.  

Typical family origin is grim, demanding, and sometimes punitive: performance, duty, perfectionism, following rules, hiding emotions, and avoiding mistakes predominate over pleasure, joy, and  relaxation.  There is usually an undercurrent of pessimism and worry---that things could fall apart if one fails to be vigilant and careful at all times.)


15. NEGATIVITY  /  PESSIMISM  (NP)

A pervasive, lifelong focus on the negative aspects of life (pain, death, loss, disappointment, conflict, guilt, resentment, unsolved problems, potential mistakes, betrayal, things that could go wrong, etc.) while minimizing or neglecting the positive or optimistic aspects. Usually includes an exaggerated expectation-- in a wide range of work, financial, or interpersonal situations -- that things will eventually go seriously wrong, or that aspects of one's life that seem to be going well will ultimately fall apart. Usually involves an inordinate fear of making mistakes that might lead to: financial collapse, loss, humiliation, or being trapped in a bad situation. Because potential negative outcomes are exaggerated, these patients are frequently characterized by chronic worry, vigilance, complaining, or indecision.

16.  EMOTIONAL INHIBITION (EI)

The excessive inhibition of spontaneous action, feeling, or communication -- usually to avoid disapproval by others, feelings of shame, or losing control of one's impulses. The most common areas of inhibition involve:  (a) inhibition of anger & aggression;  (b) inhibition of positive impulses (e.g., joy, affection, sexual excitement, play);  (c) difficulty expressing vulnerability or communicating freely about one's feelings, needs, etc.;  or (d) excessive emphasis on rationality while disregarding emotions.

17.  UNRELENTING STANDARDS /  HYPERCRITICALNESS  (US)

The underlying belief that one must strive to meet very high internalized standards of behavior and performance, usually to avoid criticism. Typically results in feelings of pressure or difficulty slowing down; and in hypercriticalness toward oneself and others.  Must involve significant impairment in:  pleasure, relaxation, health, self-esteem, sense of accomplishment, or satisfying relationships.

   

Unrelenting standards typically present as:  (a) perfectionism, inordinate attention to detail, or an underestimate of how good one's own performance is relative to the norm;  (b) rigid rules and _

[bb12]

My T has been very clever and commenced me on Schema Therapy almost immediately. Never really got into the issue that brought be to him... .the collapse of my r/s with exBPD

It is all fitting together now... .as a Lonely Child, my natural state is understanding and over-intellectualising. My coping mechanism from my own childhood trauma is to make sense of things, read the room... .try to reduce my anxiety. I was basically rocked to the core by my exBPD/ Abandoned Child being a permanent mystery. Never been able to anticipate his moods or behaviour.

I am working hard at stopping my 5 or 6 main maladaptive schemas... .including emotional inhibition and unrelenting standards. Very hard to do. But I am confident I will get there.

This thread and the Lonely Child stuff all confirms that the break-up of my r/s was a catalyst for some learnings that were a long time coming!

I feel amazing today.

thanks Skip and all of the other Ambassadors for letting this thread run its course

BB12

[T. Moore]

WOW.  That was an amazing thread and helped me to really understand and put things into perspective!  I have always wondered why I stuck it out for so many years after all the drama and with the help of a T. I am realizing that its based on my own co-dependancy and childhood issues (lonely child).  It describes my r/s to a T.  Thanks for that!  I will continue reading it again and again to help me understand!

T. Moore

[sea5045]

This is so hard to read, but so right on... .I read this last week, and then went to an Al-anon meeting and cried buckets... I could feel the loneliness of the last two years oozing out of me. I not only lost my ex, but family connections and I think al-anon may be able to help me through this piece. I am understanding driven and I have stayed too long in connections with people that are hurtful. this is really some on target stuff for me.

[charred]

Dead on for me. Lonely child in r/s with abandoned child... fits.

My folks lived in the country isolated from most people, they argued, fought and after many stormy years divorced, I went to move in with my dad and found he actually lived with his girlfriend in her house... but maintained an apartment for appearances. I lived in the apartment alone for 3 yrs till I started college. Even when I was a smaller kid I was alone, we had a big house with a finished basement and my parents and siblings lived upstairs, I lived in a room in the basement, my own room because I was oldest. The understanding child thing fits as well, I was drawn to psychology trying to understand things that didnt' make sense, then philosophy... I got in to my career field and have been like a bottomless pit trying to understand all I could, with this feeling that if I just understand it, I can do something about it and make everything okay.

Then after a re-encounter/recycling with my exBPDgf that had devastated me long ago... I find myself alone, my family gone due to divorce, my career shaky and understanding much that I never fathomed, and with the sense that there is no controlling any of this. The lights are on and what I see is me confused... .still the lonely child.

[daze]

The lonely child and abandoned child schemas seem pretty true for me and my uBPDh.

Thank you!

[mosaicbird]

Wow. Just wow. This thread is mindblowing in a good way - a slap in the face and a breath of fresh air all at once! I recognize both my former and my current relationships in this scenario.

Seriously, this site is a godsend. I'd never read about schema modes or therapy before (how did I miss it, with all my past research into dissociative disorders?), and this is just... .  I think it's exactly what I need. Finally! Something that resonates with me and seems like it might actually address the issues I have with, well, addressing things! I become triggered into my own modes so easily that it's impossible to experience a sense of self-consistency, and impossible to pin me down for any length of time, so everything ends up pushed into the big pit of avoidance again.

I am so glad I found this.

[daze]

Mosaic,

I'm with you.  This is a great thread!  One of the best.

Daze

[Scout99]

Traditionally the term "the lonely child" is used in reference to partly define one of the different subtypes of narcissism within NPD. The NPD is often the result of being brought up in an environment where the child has either been made to feel or has interpreted themselves as being unimportant or emotionally deprived. As opposed to the abandoned child that either can develop a BPD or co-dependency patterns depending on how things develop... .

If that is the way the term is to be interpreted here too, then that may not be applicable for all unions formed with a borderline partner... . ? But applicable for the ones where the non has a developed emotional deprivation schema, that either leads to narcissism or to an exaggerated need to please, (also in order to escape the feeling of being unimportant, or emotionally deprived, sometimes called the inverted narcissism).

Difference often consisting of whether or not parents show traits of developed narcissism which can lead to the second form. That is constantly having to battle for their parents attention. Whereas the narcissistic personality either derives from parents having the same disorder or there being other reasons why the child develops the sense of emotional deprivation and instead starts to fight for attention by creating the perfect self... . (which is not however the same thing as trying to become one, but instead trying to suppress true self and give room for more perfect self-created self... .

The second form of emotional deprivation schema can as I understand it very well get enmeshed into a dysfunctional dance with a borderline personality pretty much in the way you have described it in this interesting post... .

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=161524.msg1548981#msg1548981

Having done a lot of self investigation and worked through therapy myself after the experience of living with a pwNPD for a few years, I have come to the realization about myself that though I may not have issues of being a lonely child, I do have some "milder" issues with both abandonment fear as well as some emotional deprivation, however not from infancy, but from later childhood and school trauma... .

My conclusion after that and especially since discovering my own patterns in choosing men, and having ended up with yet another now BPD bf, I do realize it is definitely not just about them, but in a large part also about me... .

However, I do not think that kind of background is key to all relationships with pwBPD. I do also believe that most people can be susceptible to the idealization from a borderline personality upon initial infatuation, since they do not just and not always mirror, but in a way seem to go all in, all sets go and all emotions exposed, since they virtually lack the restraint that most people or at least less traumatized people do. And that is very seductive in itself... .

More generally speaking, what I do think differentiate most of us who try to sustain or remain or even get caught up in r/s with pwBPD and other PD's is just the fact that we tend to ignore the red flags that show up already early on in the union and either get into co-dependency or care taking or other equally somewhat dysfunctional roles, then depending on our background. Whereas most people who perhaps don't have as much issues with themselves tend to just as much get caught up in the initial idealization and infatuation, but upon noticing the red flags choose to bail out before getting too attached... . ?

I don't know, but it is a theory that is brewing in me for the moment... .

scout99

[charred]

The Lonely Child was a schema in schema therapy... . but the later versions of it have a lot more schema's and no longer have that one (if I recall right)... . so while it sounds right on for many of us... . it had a very specific meaning and when I used it as a general term, was told to go take the schema tests (older ones are online free)... . and the results were very interesting... . but it didn't have a lonely child category anymore. Schema therapy was developed with BPD in mind, there is a fantastic book "Reinventing your Life" by Jeffrey E. Young... . one of the cofounders of it... . that is a very practical guide to fixing a lot of issues and finding out what they are (not up to BPD level issues, but the fleas many of us have, going back to our FOOs).

[LynnieRe]

wow that was an interesting workshop.  Oh I'm so definately the lonely child.  When the article mentioned sympatico, we actually used that phrase in our conversation for our last breakup, which was about 4 days ago.  We've broken up 4 times this year.  "but we're so sympatico" I was replaced immediately.  Actually, I was replaced before I knew it.  It's hard to admit that I may be broken in some way, that I'm not the fixer I thought I was.  This was an excellent workshop.  Made me seriously think. 

He's in another relationship now.  He's in the idealization phase.  She's being described as a "happy stable person" but she's caught up in the mirror just now, letting him meet her kids and parents within a week.  Everyone sees it, and everyone is telling me "OMG, look at the cycle"  I never saw it when I was in it.  I see it now. 

[Inquisitive1]

I'm bookmarking this thread for future reading.

[KeepOnGoing]

Yes yes yes and yes. Thank you thank you thank you for this. This is exactly where I am in my therapy. "There may be no going back. Even though you try to placate, once dream and the trust is broken, it is broken. You may see glimmers of the idealisation phase as the pwBPD vacillates between the hopes and reality of the situation." I spent a lot of my energy trying so desperately not to fall off the pedestal. I knew there was a history of everyone else in her life falling off the pedestal. I thought I was going to be different. I thought I was smarter and much more understanding than all those previous friends and relations. She even set me up to believe that! Clearly as human beings we are perfectly imperfect, and we're going to fall off the pedestal no matter what! Then the cycle of pleasing begins. That cycle, if you will, is where my love addiction really kicked in. I think I finally understand this!

[KeepOnGoing]

"In that week, he lined up my replacement." I had some experience with this in an old relationship with someone who was probably BPD. I think in the most current BPD relationship, I think I was constantly and subconsciously trying to make sure I was in the forefront of her mind so that I wouldn't be replaced. That set up another reason for my love addiction cycle.

[KeepOnGoing]

In terms of the disorder, closeness (intimacy) will trigger abandonment/engulfment fears. Splitting will follow as a means to cope; if you are devalued, then the attachment can be minimized and it feels better. The first cycle I saw was after our very first 3 months together. I went a trip I had planned before meeting him. It was just a week long trip with several women friends, and he stayed in contact by phone the whole week, but it triggered him. I noticed he was different when he came to pick me up at the airport. He said he had been feeling "contemplative". I learned over time the word "contemplative" meant he was splitting me black and withdrawing. What followed was loads of fun... .NOT!

OMG. My friend wBPD prides herself on being a contemplative. Period. That's interesting!

[Indiegrl]

This was mindblowing.

THANK YOU all for contributing to this thread, to this level of insight. To the healing... .

I feel like the Archetypical understanding-driven lonely child.

And in terms of letting go of a partner, I can see how this makes it difficult. I place more weight on understanding him on his terms ("not being perfect"/ "having issues"/ "being ill" than on what it does to me, or if I want to have it this way. I can always stay for longer,  I am the last woman standing!  (she said with pride and identity).

I have for many years said about myself that I have a "pathological patience". And I've come to see that as sort of a defence, it's in my defensiveness; I have to be sure, I have to understand everything, I have to "turn every stone not once, but ten times" before I can do something radical or life-changing, as leave with good conscience. Deep down this may relate to a need to be right... .? (Confession: I'm terrified of making mistakes. Rather avoid doing things than risking failure. Did a solid practice of just that during my entire childhood.)

After my failed marriage (where I felt totally neglected and "unvisible" to a passive-aggressive partner), I understood that I never have had a boyfriend that put my in the center, it was always him first. No wonder, because in my forehead there seems to be a print saying: "I look after myself" (no need to bother about me, but I'd be thrilled to help you out if you need anything!)

So I set out to find the man of my dreams, the emotional, sensitive man who had a genuine interest in me as a person, who could see into my soul and my feelings, a man that also would care for me (ugh, sounds weird writing it). Yes, I knew I had issues about recieving, it soo much safer to give!

I couldn't belive my luck finding this man.

Oh well. We know the drill. There is no room for me and my needs in this relationship. (Except the ones overlapping his need to merge into one).

I will read this thread many times. Thanks again. This means... . everything. As someone else here wrote: How find a T that has this level of insight?  

[nihilo]

2010, everything you wrote in post #7 accurately describes every step of my relationship. Its almost unnerving how accurate everything is.

I'm not the only one to say that... BPD, although a "rare" disorder seems to have identical traits in a lot of situations. What brings on such close similarities? Similar childhood experiences that led to adult BPD?

[Infared]

Why does idealization turn to devaluation?

The idealisation creates a strong attachment - for both the pwBPD and the nonBPD. Mirroring, excessive praise (pleasing), sex and openness builds the BPD/nonBPD bond. 

pwBPDs are after the 'perfect' rs ~ once they perceive flaws they find it harder to mirror .  As the "hopes of perfection" gives way to reality, the hopes and trust developed in the idealisation slowly erode and the pwBPD begins to devalue.  

In the idealisation phase we were one in the same which serves the BPD as well. When we are devalued, we "push back". Now there is a loss of control to the pwBPD - often they can response in destructive ways.

As the idealisation phase is very intense ~ the devaluing swings the other way. If you are placed on a high pedestal the fall is long and the fall is hard.

There may be no going back. Even though you try to placate, once dream and the trust is broken, it is broken. You may see glimmers of the idealisation phase as the pwBPD vacillates between the hopes and reality of the situation.

It will never be how it was in the beginning. This goes for us too.  I could never feel like I did in the beginning again because the devaluing tore me down.

This is EXACTLY a what I lived through. Yes, the fall is HARD.

[ladylee]

I think I understand what this is trying to teach us. It's to learn how to self sooth so we are not so afraid to be alone, so we do not reach out to the wrong people for support, so we do not bleed, and if we happen to reach out to someone who has a mental illness, to withdraw as soon as our instincts tell us to, and not to talk ourselves into caretaking that person at our own emotional expense. We must always put our needs first, unless it is a relationship that has been established with healthy boundaries for a length of time and we are safe within it.

[Clearmind]

I think I understand what this is trying to teach us. It's to learn how to self sooth so we are not so afraid to be alone, so we do not reach out to the wrong people for support, so we do not bleed, and if we happen to reach out to someone who has a mental illness, to withdraw as soon as our instincts tell us to, and not to talk ourselves into caretaking that person at our own emotional expense. We must always put our needs first, unless it is a relationship that has been established with healthy boundaries for a length of time and we are safe within it.