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Author Topic: How Can They Not Know They're Crazy  (Read 7063 times)
avoidatallcost
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« on: January 19, 2012, 03:12:51 PM »

Ok here's the thing.  My 25 year old BP ex gf had attempted to commit suicide and had been committed to the psych ward of a mental hospital, both in her teens.  She had been a cutter throughout her teens, and even during our relationship I had noticed fresh cut marks on her arms so apparently she did not outgrow this.  Her father had abandoned her at birth, and her mother - who was a diagnosed paranoid schizophrenic - emotionally and physically abused her.  Also, my ex had been sexually abused when she was 4.  From the age of 14 on, my ex was shipped from one foster family and group home to another.  In addition, she had a consistent history of very abusive relationships that were full of break ups, violence, and (so she says) date rape.  To my knowledge, none of her many "relationships" had ever ended well.

So with all this evidence, and because my ex spent so much time writing in her journals about herself and about her feelings, surely she must have known she was mentally ill or at the very least that there was something really wrong with her?  Any thoughts on this?  Was her sense of denial so strong that with all these facts she truly thought everything wrong in our relationship was my fault?
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« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2012, 03:31:00 PM »

even when they can admit to their own problems, the "real" problem will always be us. The real "fault" will always be outside of themselves. It is the only way they can survive.

At the end of this last recycle, I told him the closest thing I ever to said to "you have BPD"... .what I actually said was "It is chaos in your head and we both know it." and I told him that he has a Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde problem. Yeah, he knows he is ill, but it is still all my "fault".
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CaptainM
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« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2012, 03:40:07 PM »

I've struggled to crack this nut myself and I guess it comes down to the core of why PD's are so hard to heal.

Firstly, the BPDs traits force a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy that justify their irrational feelings. They feel something irrational, force that feeling onto others, then the feeling is justified. They fear abandonment, chase you away in a bid to protect themselves, and you (in their eyes) 'abandon' them.

Secondly, it would be pretty difficult to accept that the way you are, the way you feel, the way you perceive is somehow 'wrong'. If you see a tree, smell a tree, touch a tree and then someone comes along and tells you the tree doesn't exist... .who would you think the crazy one is? We're coming along and telling them that their reality isn't the "right" reality and wonder why they have difficulty accepting it. To them, if they feel it, it's real and if we deny it, we're crazy.

So all your ex's evidence proves to her is that life sucks and is horribly unfair. She sees everyone else waltzing through life with ease and it seems like all the bad stuff just happens to her.
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avoidatallcost
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« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2012, 03:41:50 PM »

Yeah, he knows he is ill, but it is still all my "fault".

Interesting... so your ex at least acknowledged he had a problem?  I figure that mine did too, otherwise why would she agree to go see a psychiatrist regularly and continue to take a variety of medication?  I remember I once (mistakenly) told her I felt like a victim in this relationship.  She proceeded to tell me that this was a feature of borderline personality disorder, and that I was always painting myself as a victim in our relationship.

I responded by telling her we were both victims of her disorder.  

She didn't say anything back to me.  Maybe she realized it was true?  Is it possible our exes sometimes agree there is something seriously wrong with them?  Or do they go on forever after thinking that we, the non-BP's, were at fault for everything?
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JonnyJon42
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« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2012, 03:42:00 PM »

I think most get it at some point that they are messed up like justmehere said when they think about it they just turn it on the outside world. they do things like Im crazy casue of my boyfriend so ill leave him and find a guy im better with like that guy i met last night he was nice and i think he really gets me not like my boyfriend. Keep in mind she could of just met this guy and only talked to him like 20 mins Laugh out loud (click to insert in post).

Most dont want to get help cause the way they live is working out for them up to this point and if its not working out again outside worlds fault not me
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avoidatallcost
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« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2012, 03:43:27 PM »

Firstly, the BPDs traits force a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy that justify their irrational feelings. They feel something irrational, force that feeling onto others, then the feeling is justified. They fear abandonment, chase you away in a bid to protect themselves, and you (in their eyes) 'abandon' them.

So even if my ex dumped me in the most horrific way, complete with rubbing salt in the wound for 3 months yes 3 months post break up, she still think I am the one who abandoned her?
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« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2012, 03:44:03 PM »

My ex knows something is wrong with him and he's been seeing a psychiatrist monthly for  7 years. Unfortunately, it's more for having his prescriptions refilled than for serious therapy--although they do have counselling sessions that lift my ex's spirits.

I can't tell you the number of times in an argument, or on the precipice of an argument, he'd tell me "It's not you. I have to figure out why I'm feeling this way. I have to stay in this moment and see why I'm feeling this way." He even said this the night of his major rage which is the last time we were together October 16, 2011 at 2:45 a.m. Smiling (click to insert in post)

The thing with my ex is he knows something is wrong with him--way more than ptsd and definitely not adhd (I'd think he was BPD and NPD)--but I believe he thinks the "right" woman will be able to fix him, or he will meet the "right" woman and voila! He will change! He used to call himself wildly eccentric and try to tell me how it is I should behave, what I should do when he goes into his "incommunicado, brooding" mode (translate: silent treatment). So, inevitably, it's always the "wrong" woman's fault... .and it's always his "children's" fault... .and it's always his "mother's" fault... .and it's always his "older sister's and her husband's" fault... .you get the picture.

M
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CaptainM
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« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2012, 03:48:50 PM »

Firstly, the BPDs traits force a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy that justify their irrational feelings. They feel something irrational, force that feeling onto others, then the feeling is justified. They fear abandonment, chase you away in a bid to protect themselves, and you (in their eyes) 'abandon' them.

So even if my ex dumped me in the most horrific way, complete with rubbing salt in the wound for 3 months yes 3 months post break up, she still think I am the one who abandoned her?

Probably. Mine kicked me out of my house, told me she hated me, belittled me, tried to take me to court for my personal savings etc etc and is now (a month or so later) trying to contact me to figure out why "she wasn't worth trying for" and that I promised "I'd always be there for her".

She says her issues are that she's "emotionally fragile" and she "finds it hard to trust people" - in a moment of weakness when I tried to defend myself (silly silly me) and pointed out that she left me (every single time, at least once a year) and she was unfaithful many many times she somehow turned it around and told me that "I should grovel my way back" because she never did anything wrong and it was all my fault.
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« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2012, 04:06:32 PM »

Periodically, my ex would exhibit what seemed to be realization of the extent of her disorder (usually accompanied by sobbing and utter despair), but in retrospect, I'm not entirely sure this wasn't (at least in part) not only a way for her to subsequently justify more dysfunctional behavior ("whaddya expect ... .I'm crazy", but to also have it appear to me she might be on the verge of seeking treatment/cleaning up/whatever.

Which, as of a month ago, hadn't happened.
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« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2012, 05:18:38 PM »

Gosh, it's so sad to see others suffering the same kind of emotional gaslighting. It's just... .depressing. In recent months, its been told to my family dxBPDgf has said ALL her problems were because of me. She "only" has PTSD now because of me. I made her slash on herself, throw herself down the stairs for attention, suicide attempt, steal and lie. It makes me sick so many others suffer from this abuse as well.

Up thread CaptainM's point about a BPD and a tree is well taken. I agree with it. A BPD paradigm is normal to a BPD.

I'll add that in my experience BPDs have such a hard time accepting their disorder because they are continuously seeking people who'll reenforce they aren't the problem. They can't confront their demons. They'll draw people in, distort what is really going on and get this person to be on their "side."   If someone points out that what they're doing isn't normal, the shame, the guilt and the persecuted victim mentality start.  Further, their inability to self introspect coupled with lack any "big picture" can make them unreachable.

DxBPDgf started therapy and got the situation got WORSE as it went. Our relationship was souring and I'm sure the therapist was challenging her and making her address things. ExBPD knew she had problems, but when she started facing them she really fell apart. It was as if her sense of self was so tied to being a victim and that she'd been persecuted, being presented with many of her problems were due to her choices and were consequences of those choices overloaded her. She couldn't process because it challenged much of victim doctrine of the last 15 years. Rather than face it, run; and that's what she did. Right to her disordered mother who has a history of having her children taken away and is disordered as well. And of course, her bio-mother who refuses to get help for her issues is reenforcing the idea that getting help is bad (distrust of the system), nothing is wrong. Right what exBPD wanted to hear.

I've come to realize any time someone goes beyond the "persona" the BPD is projecting at the time, that's when the chaos starts. Whether it's a child, adult child, spouse, family member or therapist that starts calling them on things - it triggers a bunch of things and it goes to hell.

My experience highlighted in the case of exBPD that she is just completely unable to deal whats down in her dark recesses. She'll mirror and project as a survival mechanism all the while avoiding what's driving the whole thing.  Until she does, the sad pattern will continue.



Excerpt
She says her issues are that she's "emotionally fragile" and she "finds it hard to trust people" - in a moment of weakness when I tried to defend myself (silly silly me) and pointed out that she left me (every single time, at least once a year) and she was unfaithful many many times she somehow turned it around and told me that "I should grovel my way back" because she never did anything wrong and it was all my fault.

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mermaid8
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« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2012, 07:21:27 PM »

My exuBPDbf knew there was something wrong with him. He had been in and out of T his entire adult life and has had 2 failed marriages and a string of failed longterm r/s's... .He has also been off and on meds for his depression/bipolar but rather chooses when and if he will stay with any type of treatment plan involving T or meds... .After the first 9 months of our r/s when the mask starting coming off, he admitted his deep depressive cycles. I mean, they were pretty hard to hide. Then as time went on he would fluctuate moods and then finally when he would emotionally pull away enough he would tell me "Mermaid, I am sick... .there's something wrong with me and my fear is that I am not capable of having a r/s"... .I honestly believe he knows there is something VERY wrong, even though he probably doesn't know about BPD. He is not diagnosed by a Dr. although he pretty much fits all of the characteristics to a T... .My thoughts are that he knows there is something wrong but has a fear that even with a lot T and meds, he will not get better. So he tries to live in a world where he is constantly trying to distract himself with outside stimulation and addictions so that he doesn't have to do the work to try to heal and get to the bottom of what his issues are. Very sad... .very, very sad... .
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« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2012, 11:21:56 PM »

At the end of this last recycle, I told him the closest thing I ever to said to "you have BPD"... .what I actually said was "It is chaos in your head and we both know it." and I told him that he has a Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde problem. Yeah, he knows he is ill, but it is still all my "fault".

I told my ex-fiance that just 3 days ago when he tried to recycle me after he broke up with my replacement

I strongly believe that my ex-fiance knows and realizes that there is something wrong with him... .but he blames everyone else to be the reason to trigger that thing "wrong" inside of him

My ex-fiance told me that even his 13 years old son... .his friends and his co-workers asked him if there is something wrong with him... .he has all these beautiful women in his life and yet... .he couldn't find what he is looking for

He told me... .he really doesn't know what is wrong with him

I think most get it at some point that they are messed up like justmehere said when they think about it they just turn it on the outside world. they do things like Im crazy casue of my boyfriend so ill leave him and find a guy im better with like that guy i met last night he was nice and i think he really gets me not like my boyfriend. Keep in mind she could of just met this guy and only talked to him like 20 mins Laugh out loud (click to insert in post).

Most dont want to get help cause the way they live is working out for them up to this point and if its not working out again outside worlds fault not me

I agree... .they all suspect something is wrong but can't wrap their fingers about it... .so the easiest way to avoid shame is to blame the victim for all their faults
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« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2012, 11:35:45 PM »

Excerpt
So with all this evidence, and because my ex spent so much time writing in her journals about herself and about her feelings, surely she must have known she was mentally ill or at the very least that there was something really wrong with her?  Any thoughts on this?

"Her father had abandoned her at birth, and her mother - who was a diagnosed paranoid schizophrenic - emotionally and physically abused her.  Also, my ex had been sexually abused when she was 4.  From the age of 14 on, my ex was shipped from one foster family and group home to another."

At what point must you realize that this is normal for her?

You're asking about mental illness from *your* perspective. I'm assuming that you are aware of what's normal and what's not- according to your upbringing.  At any point in her childhood, was there normal as *you* know it?

If not, then why are you insisting that she become aware that your normal and her normal are different and make changes?  The bottom line is: your realities are different and no amount of pleading is going to change that. You also need to understand your recommendations to her to be "normal" are almost as though you are translating hieroglyphics.  A child raised in these circumstances knows no "normal" like you do- Idea

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« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2012, 11:44:24 PM »

My BPD ex-husband saw a psychiatrist for over 20 years and had a sister who had been both jailed and placed in a mental hospital.  He knew something was wrong but still told both wife #2 and wife #3 and his mother and who knows who else that it was me, all me.  I do not know what is wrong with their logical reasoning skills, but they cannot seem to actually take responsibility for their behavior and its consequences.
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« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2012, 02:19:31 AM »

By far most know something is (very) wrong IMO. My xBPDgf was very aware of her BPD. Because of the things she said, I think she knew more about BPD than I ever knew. Why didn't she do anything about it? First of all, she sought refugee in short term quick fixes. She also pretended to wear it as a badge of honour: "I am crazy, the rest is boring". It is a personality disorder, so she thought this was her. If she changed this, ME wouldn't be ME anymore. Especially for somebody with a lack of identity, this was very scary for her, to become somebody else. She tried to figure herself out many times. While she knew everything about BPD, her answer was always "I donot know why I do those things, I cannot even explain myself to myself." She was clueless about the world, and most important she was clueless about herself.
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Beach_Babe
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« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2012, 05:56:56 AM »

That pretty much sums mine up... .she knew she was "crazy," admitted and sought help for BPD-but I think some of them are incapable of change... .too LF
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« Reply #16 on: January 20, 2012, 06:23:09 AM »

Her exact words:

If I come and live with you, you will get bored of me within a month and then what will I do…….I will be alone as no one will want me.

Perhaps they sometimes know they are acting and feeling weird. Key word *sometimes*, as pwBPD quickly revert back to ‘is everybody else’s fault that I feel this inner pain and emptiness’.

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Neverknow
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« Reply #17 on: January 20, 2012, 06:42:02 AM »

At times, my stbxw will describe her BPD symptoms very accurately and honestly.  She will say, I have these emotions boiling over inside of me, and I just can't control them, and I am trying so hard, and I realize the awful things I am saying and doing, but I can't stop myself.   And, other days, she will say she is tired of people thinking there is something wrong with her, it's me who is messed up, and I just tell everyone there is something wrong with her.

It makes treatment and therapy very hard, because if she is not in the first mood, she will just not bother to show up at the T.
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Finished
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« Reply #18 on: January 20, 2012, 06:48:36 AM »

Firstly, the BPDs traits force a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy that justify their irrational feelings. They feel something irrational, force that feeling onto others, then the feeling is justified. They fear abandonment, chase you away in a bid to protect themselves, and you (in their eyes) 'abandon' them.

So even if my ex dumped me in the most horrific way, complete with rubbing salt in the wound for 3 months yes 3 months post break up, she still think I am the one who abandoned her?

In a strange way yes ... .My ex also did the dumping ... .However, I've come to accept that I pushed this sometimes consciously and other times subconsciously, over about six month period because I had encountered suicide threats in the past and was scared if I just left he would kill himself.

He did the dumping in a completely unnecessary and hurtful way. I have realized that because I didn't chase him down and fix us again and get us to reconcile that I "let him go" and that it was all my fault. I didn't stop him from leaving. So I'm the one who left him.

Twisted I know.
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« Reply #19 on: January 20, 2012, 08:48:28 AM »

At times, my stbxw will describe her BPD symptoms very accurately and honestly.  She will say, I have these emotions boiling over inside of me, and I just can't control them, and I am trying so hard, and I realize the awful things I am saying and doing, but I can't stop myself.   

yes towards the last half of the r/s my exBPDgf would say the same thing.

since becoming friends with her ex husband who knew her for 10 years and myself being with her for a little over 3, making her 30 or so when they met, she was completely unaware of what was going on with her.  when she was about 36 they went to 3 or 4 reputable marriage counselors and given she's a relatively high functioning BPD they got absolutely nowhere with that. 

i met her when she was almost 39.  when she had just turned 40 i broke it off over some crazy behavior and she ended up in a T office having a breakdown and talking suicided with myself and her ex husband there.  after an official bipolar dx (for insurance companies sake) she began admitting she had some real problems.  she had also had a recent string of 3 jobs that she had to leave due to unfavorable circumstances because of her behavior.  tho she went in and out of admitting it, i recall one of our last conversations she admitted she has trouble connecting with people, esp those close to her.  she'd say i just need a really stable guy, but most likely i'll end up alone. 

it seemed like progress but it was at a snail pace and she made plenty of excuses about not going to therapy.  in the end it was too little progress for me, too many fights and my health couldn't take it.

but i do think that given the right circumstances they can (at least mine did) begin to realize something is pretty wrong with them.  i imagine it must be scary for them.  i sometimes think it was also her age?  i've heard that some BPD's symptoms decrease with age.


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Annie D

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« Reply #20 on: January 20, 2012, 10:16:53 AM »

even when they can admit to their own problems, the "real" problem will always be us. The real "fault" will always be outside of themselves. It is the only way they can survive.

Well said... .That's the story of my life in my current relationship.

Admittedly, it's nearing its end.  I'm tired trying to make this work and I'm tired of not feeling good enough.  My partner is just never happy and wakes up cranky... .Of course, it's always someone else's fault. 

Tired.
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« Reply #21 on: January 21, 2012, 08:15:18 AM »

Excerpt
So with all this evidence, and because my ex spent so much time writing in her journals about herself and about her feelings, surely she must have known she was mentally ill or at the very least that there was something really wrong with her?  Any thoughts on this?

"Her father had abandoned her at birth, and her mother - who was a diagnosed paranoid schizophrenic - emotionally and physically abused her.  Also, my ex had been sexually abused when she was 4.  From the age of 14 on, my ex was shipped from one foster family and group home to another."

At what point must you realize that this is normal for her?

You're asking about mental illness from *your* perspective. I'm assuming that you are aware of what's normal and what's not- according to your upbringing.  At any point in her childhood, was there normal as *you* know it?

If not, then why are you insisting that she become aware that your normal and her normal are different and make changes?  The bottom line is: your realities are different and no amount of pleading is going to change that. You also need to understand your recommendations to her to be "normal" are almost as though you are translating hieroglyphics.  A child raised in these circumstances knows no "normal" like you do- Idea

Hi. My exes childhood history was somewhat similar. We all have slightly different perceptions of reality don't we? Most of these issues are resolvable though between a 'normal' couple where emotional dysregulation is at a minimum. However, when that dysregulation is out of control, that is when those issues become the dramas and crises that balloon into 'r/s deal breakers'.

Via research and much soul searching i understand her problems from MY perspective. My empathic skills allow me to also see her problems from HER perspective. This allowed me to detach to a degree and to move forwards. I did say quite early on in our rekindled 'romance' (14 years on and off), that we wanted different things... .so i knew via gut instinct that as rosy as it had been painted, there was something 'off'.

So yes, i myself, know the way forwards for me. A healthy acceptance of a few facts. Our 'normal' is different, i can't change that or be involved with the process of that change, some things, no matter how good they seem, are not meant to be, i look after me and she can look after herself etc etc etc ... .i could go on.

I think that the point avoidatallcost may have been making is this(and forgive me if i misinterpreted it) ... .

The thing that got me angriest of all was the fact that she plunged headlong into this 'big love' thing without any thought for the consequences whatsoever. She is 44 years old and has had a disastrous marriage, a disastrous LTR prior to me with the father of her child and other equally disastrous r/s.

She has NEVER lived in a domesticated environment (i.e. Living with your partner under the same roof) for longer than 6 months without it all going South. During the idealisation stage though, she had a plan to construct this domestic scenario. Her words ... .'It's all coming together', after meeting her daughter, family and all the other r/s building exercises. All of her words pointed to a future together.

I am 51 years old myself and am well aware of the mechanics of a 'normal' r/s dance, which happens however much you don't want to play games, it's a courtship ritual after all. That's all good exciting(but not damaging) 'dancing'.

So we are not 'kids' ... .and yes i know her development was arrested and that her head is stuck back at around 5 years old. I expressed doubts about the r/s and at every turn she swore to me that she had it all together this time.

My point is ... .Regardless of being developmentally arrested, they have life experience ... .in my exes case, a trail of totally failed r/s etc. Even after all that, they still take no personal responsibility for anything, not during the r/s or after the event. She never EVER considered the fact that *I* could get hurt at any point. She has also had some family therapy and some other 'course' as she called it, which i think may have been DBT by the description she gave. So SHE knows!

Mentally ill or not, i for one am not in the habit of absolving anyone for acting irresponsibly to the extreme. They are clever enough to manipulate and manufacture extravagant situations so, in my book, even though dysfunctional they must be savvy enough to realise the damage that they do, especially when armed with the knowledge of previous failures.

N.B. I have forgiven her for her alternate reality as i know that she can't help it. However, they lack empathy when the chips are down and that is one of the key elements of 'Being Human'.
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« Reply #22 on: January 21, 2012, 08:36:37 AM »

My ex had repeated attempts at taking her own life with pills and one time told me she was cutting to ease the pain from the feeling of failure. She admitted herself into a mental hospital when she dropped out of her studies, wanted to show me a favourite spot where she thought of ending her life and regularly broke up or triangulated for strange and bizarre reasons. She was textbook BPD traits but was very quiet about what therapy she was receiving. Her family were the same, calling her issues, depression. She once told me there was nothing wrong with her, just a slight anxiety problem. Other times, she would tell me she was just a nobody and I shouldn't be with her. She was demanding, cruel, parasitic and highly toxic. To me, mentally ill but to her, it depended on the mood. Either way, it would be watered down.
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« Reply #23 on: January 21, 2012, 11:24:04 AM »

Short answer here, and I'm not being flip... .because they are crazy! The socially acceptable term may be mentally ill but for sure we absolutely will make ourselves crazy if we try to apply normal thinking to their actions.

Personally I would love my H to admit he was crazy because it would validate me but I know for sure he's not in the business of validating my feelings and experiences.  Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #24 on: January 21, 2012, 11:40:39 AM »

You're asking about mental illness from *your* perspective. I'm assuming that you are aware of what's normal and what's not- according to your upbringing.  At any point in her childhood, was there normal as *you* know it?

I find it interesting to think of this in terms of MY issues. I was with my H for 29 years, and the first 20 were filled with chaos and drunkenness and abandonment. Yet, even though I always knew that this was not *normal* I had no idea what to do about it. I was just as sick as he was. Often, I would join in the chaos, out of fear  ?  I had my own abandonment issues.

From one of my previous posts:

"I have been seeking answers and understanding as to why I have stayed for 29 years with such a destructive person. Why have I justified and defended a r/s that everyone else seems to see is bad for me? Why have I constantly believed in promises that are never kept? Why have I continued to use repetitive, destructive and cyclical communication attempts? Why are others horrified by what happens, but not me? Why have I felt so stuck knowing my H is going to repeat his destructive behaviors but believing there is nothing I can do about it? Why have I been unable to detach from someone I do not trust, or even like much of the time? Why do I find myself missing a r/s that nearly destroyed me (I attempted suicide)? Why was I so willing to sweep my hurt, fears, anger under the rug just to continue the same destructive r/s? Looking at this make me feel like I am the one insane! And perhaps I have been... .it all has to do with TRAUMA!"

So, who's the crazy one here? God knows, I acted pretty crazy myself out of my own desperation.

As far as my H, I think he also has known all along that something is terribly wrong. He has said, many times, "I am not a bad person!", as if he is trying to convince himself. He has said, "I know that Mr Hyde is a problem" as if this is some outside force to reckon with. But feeling bad does not offer any relief, or any solution. Its not like he knows he's crazy, its more like he feels like a bad person and fears the man in the mirror.

To me its all very sad. Yes, I have plenty of my own issues. But I a much better ability to seek recovery because I see the sickness. He knows something is wrong, but in his perspective HE is wrong, so seeking recovery seems an impossibility. His illness keeps him so lost in the forest, I dont know that he will ever be able to see the trees! So sad.
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« Reply #25 on: January 21, 2012, 03:49:41 PM »

Thank you captinkirk

Its ok that they are ill in the head but its not ok that they NEVER learn no matter how many times they do the same things and no matter how many times it happens they never take ANY responsibility. With age you would think the options would start to dry up and they would have to look at the facts but from ive seen it dont seem to work that way they can be 60 and look back and still look at it as not there fault that they have a massive corpse pile behind them.
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« Reply #26 on: January 21, 2012, 04:21:31 PM »

Getting a BPD to realize they have issues is the primary goal at the beginning of tharapy if they do they can improve, I've seen it.

Understanding that you can go from doctor Jekyll to Mr. Hyde and lose control of yourself is a HUGE step.

If they can't see that the prognosis is dim.  The fact my BPD wife has come to know she has issues was the most important reason I decided to stay with her.

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« Reply #27 on: January 21, 2012, 05:04:56 PM »

... .  The fact my BPD wife has come to know she has issues was the most important reason I decided to stay with her.

Amen to that. I would have stood by my ex if she had done that too! No doubt!
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« Reply #28 on: January 21, 2012, 05:17:53 PM »

Mine over the years have said she has a issue just for lip service. If they say it and mean it they will get help but they dont want help they just want to keep living the lie cause up to this point it worked or they think next time it will be different but it never is always the same crap. If my ex called me said she has this problem and want to get help and got help i would take her back and forgive her but thats the thing she dont want to get help cause like in the past they are going to tell her to get away from her grandma which she wont do.
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« Reply #29 on: January 21, 2012, 05:42:11 PM »

In the end it was too little progress for me, too many fights and my health couldn't take it.

I completely empathize with you. DxBPDgf didn't show any improvement, if anything the freefall got  much worse. The fact your exBPD showed improvement and responded perhaps gives her a chance. In the end, in my case the strain, my hair falling out and my skin getting this constant hive like rash - I just couldn't take it either. The best thing for me was to make sure her child was in a safe place out of her care and for me to get out.

Has your health bounced back? I took 3 months for my color to come back and a year to return to feeling like I used to feel.

but i do think that given the right circumstances they can (at least mine did) begin to realize something is pretty wrong with them.  i imagine it must be scary for them.  i sometimes think it was also her age?  i've heard that some BPD's symptoms decrease with age.

Yes, I agree. They have to be strong and high functioning. If they can open the door and face it without running - they have a chance. If that door scares them too much and they want external validation that it's everyone's fault for their plight - it's hopeless.

Early in my time at bpdfamily, I forget who pointed out that BPDs may appear to get better as they age, is, perhaps an illusion. This person surmised that by the time the BPD is 40 (or earlier if they had children young), they have probably have had children. Those children could be enmeshed with the BPD and the BPD has learned to keep the more chaotic elements of their disorder "behind closed doors."  Instead of projecting on to an adult who might react negatively and result in conflict, they have a captive child(ren) now who they raise in "roles" and constantly project upon them. If a BPD mother is a single parent, chances are no conflict will be shown. The children are now her the vessles of her projection. They have been groomed since birth for these roles, so there is often little conflict. The BPD projects without resistance. The BPD appears stable, but it's the children who show the telltale signs that something is seriously wrong.

With my exBPD, she was completely like that. Family business was not to be spoken about out of the home. It took a huge push by me to disclose to the youngest child's pediatrician that there were odd (and frankly - scary) sexualized behaviors the child was engaging in. DxBPDgf HATED that I brought it up. She hated it that it was out there. That belonged only in the family by her strict reasoning. Doctors, therapists - anyone one who could help were not to be trusted. In my view, she KNEW it wasn't normal and bringing it up would put a spotlight on her. She'd rather hide it instead of get the child help. The youngest also at six years old was at least two years behind in development despite being a very smart child. That was later diagnosed with ADHD, emphasis on the hyperactivity, a learning disorder and displayed considerably anxiety.  

That child was the "bad" child.

She had a boy who was the family "oracle."  He was parentified, her perfect little man. In his words, at 13 he was a "momma's boy."  He was all that was good in the universe.  In reality, he was manipulative, lying, disrespectful of any boundaries and expected to be treated as an adult. After all he was an equal to adults.  I saw quickly that this boy had a persona for his mother. With almost anyone else, including his half sister and his father, whom he spoke very coldly and darkly of: a very different persona.  His anger at any reasonable boundary was strange. He wouldn't respect any house rules. Passive aggressive was how he lashed back. He is a narcissist in the making. His mother has raised him that think he is special and entitled to be treated in a way.

I came through my own reading and understanding that he has two distinct identities. The one his mother expects him to be (projection) and his. The anger is the boys true core.  I do feel sorry for him. At least his half sister is out of living with their mother. This boy, is, will and probably never will break the duality that has made him so anger so young. His "specialness" is now tied up in his identity.

Some BPDs are masters of hiding the disorder as they age. They channel it on the kids.  
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« Reply #30 on: January 21, 2012, 11:08:41 PM »

It's so true. They often don't know they are crazy because they are crazy. It's hard for a non to really get that because we apply the stuff we have learned. One plus one equals two. I fear that my ex will train her kids in the same way. My ex's parents don't seem to do anything but enable her by bailing her out of everything that goes wrong. The ex once told me that she would be an old lady looking after stray pets living by herself. That was the future she saw. Let's hope she gets some help considering there are three kids under a roof with her and one is mine.
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« Reply #31 on: January 21, 2012, 11:37:31 PM »

... . The fact my BPD wife has come to know she has issues was the most important reason I decided to stay with her.

Amen to that. I would have stood by my ex if she had done that too! No doubt!

I consider myself incredibly lucky that my ex didn't. At the time, sure, I would have thought I wanted it. But since I was able to live without him and detach I realize that it would have never been worth it. Parts of my body have been worn out from the stress of dealing with BPD (mom and ex), and I'm not even 30 yet. No one and nothing is worth it! Being around people with BPD is hard on a person, like smoking ten packs a day.
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« Reply #32 on: January 22, 2012, 01:10:23 AM »

An experience like that is not worth repeating, I agree. It takes a huge toll on your health. I'm forever thankful that we never moved in together and had to wade through all her issues with her parents spectating from the sidelines. She said one thing to me during our last conversation that kinda told me she was never really in it to begin with. It was BPD crazy. She told me she should have ended our relationship a long time ago or near the start. What I got from that was, for her, it would have better off if we were a one night stand or had spent just a few nights together until she got what she wanted and her hit of confidence, rather than put work into a relationship which she obviously believed would fail. Maybe we should have been bed buddies but even then the emotional instability and constant games would have ended us. After almost two years to think about things, it makes sense she was using me to make her ex jealous at the end. She did a startling 360 and started talking to him again, first bragging about me, then discarding me totally to possible get back with him. I felt so cheap and alone. Never going to feel that way again, I won't let it happen.
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« Reply #33 on: January 22, 2012, 03:42:15 AM »

BPDlover

Ya what i have seen is they cant say no lets say they do have a one night stand but the guy keeps coming back they will let him keep coming they might even let him think they are in a relationship but it might only be one sided and the BPD just lets it happen until something better comes along or they get bored of it and start cheating and lieing all over again cause the BPD person didnt not want anything more then a one night stand its the other guys fault for hanging around if that makes sense to you.
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« Reply #34 on: January 22, 2012, 04:38:09 AM »

exBPDgf: I see people around me having fun and laugh, and I wonder how can they be so happy, how can they laugh and I can’t do this.

So, how could she not know there is something wrong her? She knew…….at the MOMENT.

Their coping mechanisms kick in later and blame something else (an object) for their misery. An object can be their SO, a child, a fly passing by, a stranger that briefly starred at them, anything except themselves.

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« Reply #35 on: January 22, 2012, 06:29:04 AM »

Makes sense JonnyJon42. They don't invest possibly because they don't have anything of substance to invest with. I also found it hard to invest because I could not give her anything. She could not receive. All I wanted to do was love her by being myself. Well, I was myself but she missed that caught up in thoughts and her absent self.
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« Reply #36 on: January 22, 2012, 01:12:35 PM »

I've struggled to crack this nut myself and I guess it comes down to the core of why PD's are so hard to heal.

Firstly, the BPDs traits force a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy that justify their irrational feelings. They feel something irrational, force that feeling onto others, then the feeling is justified. They fear abandonment, chase you away in a bid to protect themselves, and you (in their eyes) 'abandon' them.

Wow! This is so true!   my uBPD asked me to help her deal with her son's special education issues with the school district because she was having deep depressions and was dealing with her other emotional issues. I spent a lot of time helping her plan the strategy, prepare documentation, etc. She was very thankful for my help. Then less than 24 hours after thanking me, suddenly out of the blue, she emailed me and said: "Stop doing everything for me! You are making me feel stressed, depressed, anxious and fearful! Can you see what you are doing to me? Why can’t you see that your actions hurt my feelings and caused a lot of harm? Why didn't you use you head?"  I was shocked. I wrote back to her telling her that I would honor her request and would stop helping her with her son's work because I didn't want to hurt her anymore. However, if she still wants me to help her down the road, I would be very happy to resume helping her and that I will always standby her all the time.  She replied: "What do mean by: if you still want my help in the future? Why do you abandon me when I need you? Why do you throw away our relationship?"  I wrote back to her telling her I have never abandoned her. She replied and said:"I don't want to hear your excuses. You are despicable and I don't want to see you anymore. Get out of my life and leave me alone so I can heal from this emotional roller-coaster ride". Her email was full of abusive and disrespectful language.

Talk about being shocked, I didn't know what hit me at that point. She never explained to me what or how I had hurt her feelings. I didn’t have a clue how I could have caused her those emotional roller-coaster rides. I didn't know anything about BPD at that time. That was 4-1/2 months ago, and I am still in shock now.  How could she PUSH me away and still have the gall to claim that I ABENDONED her?  Unbelievable!  She was the one who actively wanted a very close relationship, but each time just when our relationship got too close, she would find some reasons to push me away, and I believed her reasons. Why did I sink so low?  I didn’t know how to set boundry. Had I set appropriete boundries, I would have cut her out after the first or second time she did this to me. It’s almost 5 months now, and the wound is still very raw!

On New Year's day, I threw a party for my nephew's birthday. Unbeknownst to me, he invited her to the party too (my nephew didn’t know anything. What could I do at that point?). Well she did came to my house. She ate my food and drank my coffee. I welcomed her warmly, but she ignored me. She acted as though I didn't exist. She never spoke a word to me, even when I passed her food. Her eyes were as cold as ice and looked spaced out. She never thanked me for welcoming her to my party. Wow, talking about cruelty and heartlessness, can anyone beat this?

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« Reply #37 on: January 22, 2012, 07:38:09 PM »

Firstly, the BPDs traits force a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy that justify their irrational feelings. They feel something irrational, force that feeling onto others, then the feeling is justified. They fear abandonment, chase you away in a bid to protect themselves, and you (in their eyes) 'abandon' them.

I was reading some threads in another forum posted by PBDs admitting that they push their partners away but at the same time they want them to stay... .but can't tolerate their presence so they have to keep pushing away

NON SENSE... I remember my ex-fiance when he broke up with me he told me he will never ever forgive me for breaking his son's heart... .I was like       ... .I'm not the one who is leaving   ? ? ?
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« Reply #38 on: January 22, 2012, 07:56:06 PM »

BPDlover

Ya what i have seen is they cant say no lets say they do have a one night stand but the guy keeps coming back they will let him keep coming they might even let him think they are in a relationship but it might only be one sided and the BPD just lets it happen until something better comes along or they get bored of it and start cheating and lieing all over again cause the BPD person didnt not want anything more then a one night stand its the other guys fault for hanging around if that makes sense to you.

This makes sense to me as well, from what I know of my wife when she was younger she always had to have a "bird in hand" no matter if she wanted that one or not. Until another one came along that caught her eye.

This even figures into how I met her, she was seeing someone, claimed it wasn't going anywhere but put all her effort into me while still seeing him as well.

To be fair I was seeing someone else but I was ending that r/s.

Lucky me I traded one BPD for another.

Sir5r
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« Reply #39 on: January 22, 2012, 08:31:09 PM »

NON SENSE... I remember my ex-fiance when he broke up with me he told me he will never ever forgive me for breaking his son's heart... .I was like       ... .I'm not the one who is leaving   ? ? ?

Yes, but in his eyes it's your fault that he's leaving because you weren't there for him / were there too much / expected too much / didn't love him / chewed with your mouth open / [insert any excuse that absolves them from blame or responsibility].

My ex broke up with me and continues to berate me on how I "gave up on her" or "didn't fight for her". Yep, totally my fault. 
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« Reply #40 on: January 23, 2012, 02:32:24 AM »

She broke it off with me and her ex before me but it was all his fault when she talked about him to me and I bet it's all my fault when she talks about me to whoever the flavour of the minute is now. Unlikely I will speak to her again but if she ever tells me I didn't fight for her or I abandoned her, well, what's the point of a response? She isn't going to believe in reality. I didn't abandon her, she ditched both guys who had kids with her. If I get a bunch of crap about how I wasn't there for my kid, I've tried. The system supports crazy people.
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« Reply #41 on: January 23, 2012, 07:16:13 AM »

You're asking about mental illness from *your* perspective. I'm assuming that you are aware of what's normal and what's not- according to your upbringing.  At any point in her childhood, was there normal as *you* know it?

I find it interesting to think of this in terms of MY issues. I was with my H for 29 years, and the first 20 were filled with chaos and drunkenness and abandonment. Yet, even though I always knew that this was not *normal* I had no idea what to do about it. I was just as sick as he was. Often, I would join in the chaos, out of fear  ?  I had my own abandonment issues.

This is my experience exactly.

Not everyone thinks their reality is normal. They may just not know what to do about it at the time.

I grew up in screaming matches with my mom (who got into similar screaming matches with my grandfather) and I knew it wasn't how other kids grew up. I longed for a peaceful home. I just didn't know what to do about it. With my mom, I stayed silent to try and keep the peace in the house.

With my ex, I certainly knew this wasn't how it was supposed to be - but every time I would say what was bothering me, I would be punished with silent treatment and/or rages and/or threats of abandonment and/or actualy breakups. The more I got under his mask, the worse it became.

In the end, with both of them I knew that wasn't normal - but I didn't know what to do about it and felt trapped.

Now I realize it was my own fear that trapped me.

Funny - when I joined this board, I had thought I had a perfect childhood. Oh, things we end up digging.

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« Reply #42 on: January 23, 2012, 07:35:19 AM »

... .  The fact my BPD wife has come to know she has issues was the most important reason I decided to stay with her.

Amen to that. I would have stood by my ex if she had done that too! No doubt!

My ex was dx'd BPD.

Started therapy (CBT).

He was very HF. BPD/NPD comorbidity. 8/9 for both.

Of course I was ready to stand by him all the way. Knew we would not make it without his getting better.

We turned our lives upside down for each other. I moved across the ocean and changed jobs for him. He left his wife of 20 years for me (his second marriage).

But this thing was bigger than anything.

Shortly after starting therapy, he found someone else, left everything, and quit therapy.

Them knowing officially may not make a difference - or even entering therapy.

The keys are (1) STAYING and completing therapy - which may take years; and (2) the RIGHT kind of therapy (DBT for LF, or Schema for HF)

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« Reply #43 on: January 23, 2012, 09:07:43 AM »

... .  The fact my BPD wife has come to know she has issues was the most important reason I decided to stay with her.

Amen to that. I would have stood by my ex if she had done that too! No doubt!

My ex was dx'd BPD.

Started therapy (CBT).

He was very HF. BPD/NPD comorbidity. 8/9 for both.

Of course I was ready to stand by him all the way. Knew we would not make it without his getting better.

We turned our lives upside down for each other. I moved across the ocean and changed jobs for him. He left his wife of 20 years for me (his second marriage).

But this thing was bigger than anything.

Shortly after starting therapy, he found someone else, left everything, and quit therapy.

Them knowing officially may not make a difference - or even entering therapy.

The keys are (1) STAYING and completing therapy - which may take years; and (2) the RIGHT kind of therapy (DBT for LF, or Schema for HF)

My wife is in CBT right now.  I think it makes a difference with each individual and one of the primary differences I have seen is commitment to relationships and commitment to therapy.

If someone is willing to leave a relationship of 20+ years that indicates a lot less emotional stability then a BPD that has  ever gone outside the relationship.

The ones that cheat are the best liars and have the hardest time in recovery.

I think it's because once they get used to rebooting their lives every time they want that makes it very easy to avoid the repercussions of most of their BPD Behaviors.

Sir5r
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« Reply #44 on: January 23, 2012, 09:14:59 AM »

Life is too short to waste it living with a BP.  To be systematically raped and emotionally plundered by these people is such a waste of energy.  

Unless they have fully recovered, STAY AWAY FROM THEM.  As long as they are in therapy and on drugs, and still exhibiting the same behaviors, they will only wreak havoc in your life.

My BP ex gf is on medication and in therapy.  Surely she MUST realize that at least something is wrong with her if she has resorted to these ways of "getting better."  And my ex used to talk about how she used to be even worse before the therapy/drugs, as she'd sometimes start crying over even the most innocuous comments!  Her own observation here that she was capable of getting better was surely at least an indication that there was something wrong with her, no?

Despite all of the evidence of her craziness and her history of crazy, broken relationships, it's amazing how this disorder can still drive me crazy enough to make it look like I'm the one who was nuts in our relationship.
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« Reply #45 on: January 23, 2012, 09:30:56 AM »

Gosh, it's so sad to see others suffering the same kind of emotional gaslighting. It's just... .depressing. In recent months, its been told to my family dxBPDgf has said ALL her problems were because of me. She "only" has PTSD now because of me. I made her slash on herself, throw herself down the stairs for attention, suicide attempt, steal and lie. It makes me sick so many others suffer from this abuse as well.

You are not alone ... .My ex also was formally dxBPD (2 psychologists and a psychiatrist) and after the break up I was told that it was never BPD it was PSTD and I was part of the cause for it. Yup ... been there, done that ... .
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« Reply #46 on: January 23, 2012, 09:53:51 AM »

Unfortunately the odds of them realizing something is wrong are non-existent let alone their recovery from a lengthy and persistent therapy.

They might realize it only for a brief moment. Same with therapy, they might start but will eventually paint the therapist black and flee.

Sometimes I wonder what’s wrong with US wanting them so bad!


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« Reply #47 on: January 23, 2012, 11:10:46 AM »

Mine has moments where she will say she is starting to see it but its never i really am this and i need help
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« Reply #48 on: January 23, 2012, 11:22:58 AM »

I think it's even worse when your BP ex is actually getting help.  It should be somewhat easier to leave knowing there is ABSOLUTELY NO PROSPECT that your ex will get better.  And I say "somewhat" only because it's never actually easy to leave a BP.

So don't kick yourselves over the fact that they're not getting help.  Even if they are getting help, this is even worse in my opinion because the BP will only continue with their destructive borderline behaviors, only these will be more well-hidden, subtle, and will only be unleashed gradually over time.  Them seeking help, IMO, only makes the situation worse for the non-BP in the relationship.  It makes you stick around longer, and suffer even more than you normally would.  This is because you make even more excuses for the BP's behavior, such as "at least the BP is getting help" and "at least the BP recognizes they have a problem" and "hey now the BP is getting help maybe they will get better" etc etc this only makes you stick around longer and suffer even more than ever.  And by sticking around longer, it makes it even more difficult to leave in the end. 

It's a vicious, never ending cycle, until the BP breaks it off with you because they have found someone new. 

But the thing is, as long as they have BPD they will never get better.  The only time you should allow a BP in your life is if they're completely "cured" of BPD.  I doubt this can ever happen, but I've heard it can so I'll remain somewhat open to this suggestion. 
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« Reply #49 on: January 23, 2012, 11:30:10 AM »

I can see what your saying avoid

I would if my ex came back and was truthful on why she left and really was going to get help i would forgive and try to help her BUT would i get back with her... .no it would take alot of me seeing she is REALLY trying to get help and to see a change in behaver and way more openness and honesty and for her to take her part and REALLY understand her part in all this.

Trust can be rebuilt but it takes time and honesty which is something BPD cant give
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« Reply #50 on: January 23, 2012, 11:33:29 AM »

JonnyJon this is malignant optimism at work again.  It'll take years of intense targeted therapy for her to even start improving her behavior.  This forum is full of stories of borderline partners "improving" their behavior, but the relationships were still totally unbearable for the non.

While your BP ex is getting help, she will still be making you mentally ill.  It's the prime objective of her disorder.  You shouldn't have to get yourself sick while she tries to get herself better.  This isn't fair to you.  We need to find people who are healthy and will bring us up instead of trying to destroy us and take us down with them.
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« Reply #51 on: January 23, 2012, 11:40:30 AM »

Laugh out loud (click to insert in post) im not holding my breath if thats how im coming off. I dont believe she wants to get help anyways in her world she is unhelpable. Again though i wouldn't take her back but i would be there to help if she asked but you might be right it could all be a trap and if not a trap turn into one. She is far to toxic of a person hurts almost everybody she touches then walks away like nothing happen or acts like she gave it her all when she gave nothing.

What i love is how they can say i cant be with you cause i see the damage i cause i need to be alone for along time then 5 mins later with another guy Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #52 on: January 23, 2012, 11:50:21 AM »

I know how you feel... they're great at manipulating people.  I have a friend who works at a hospital psych ward, and she tells me they deliberately avoid taking on borderlines because they're so adept at manipulating therapists against each other.  So if they're this good at manipulating trained professionals, you can see just how much of a chance good, caring, uneducated (at the time!) people like me and you must have stood!
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« Reply #53 on: January 23, 2012, 01:06:30 PM »

yep my mom has a master in psychology and works for the state and says she will not work with any cluster B PD cause of the lies and games your almost never getting though to them but they will make you believe with all your might you are. My mom even gets sucked into my BPDex sht just kinda of got mad of me the other night for not calling her on her birthday ( keep in mind my ex has been ignoreing me for 2 months Laugh out loud (click to insert in post) and my mom still thought i should of tried. )
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« Reply #54 on: January 23, 2012, 01:10:02 PM »

very interesting... I'd love to hear what some of her experiences with BP's are like! 

Looking back at how naive and simple I was and totally ignorant about BPD when I started seeing my BP ex, I had no idea what kind of a horror movie I was walking into.  I was such a sitting duck, thinking if I loved this person and showed her I would never leave that eventually she would grow to trust me. 

Little did I know that my attempts to shower her with love were to have the opposite effect: they would make her hate me even more and she would systematically destroy my self esteem as well as my sanity!
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« Reply #55 on: January 23, 2012, 01:35:33 PM »

yep i feel the same way

The more i loved her the more i forgave her the more i took her back the more she seem to hate me after the fact. At 1st was always im so lucky to have someone who loves me and can forgive me then a few weeks later all the lies and crap start up worse then the last time.

Its so odd they will chase you to the ends the earth to get a i forgive you and we can make this work out of you only to turn around and be like really what kind of man takes this from a women he is weak i need someone stronger.

Even when they get what they want they are never happy always finding the bad.
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« Reply #56 on: January 23, 2012, 02:02:51 PM »

For nons, BPD is definitely a lose-lose situation.  I've read some books regarding how to counter the insane behaviors of BP's, by setting boundaries and handing out consequences to the BP when their behavior crosses the line.

But is this how we're supposed to live the one life we're given on Earth?  By walking on eggshells and constantly performing relationship calculus?  What kind of a relationship is this where we have to leave the person we love for days at a time in order to "punish" their treatment of us?  Will this actually ever work?

I know in my situation, I think I tried every possible avenue I could.  In the end, my ex's BPD always kicked my ass no matter what I did.  When something didn't work in one situation, I tried the opposite method in the next situation and still it would not work!  No matter what I said or did, it was always twisted and turned against me!
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« Reply #57 on: January 23, 2012, 02:17:19 PM »

With mine it almost seems like when i took her back then she need to get revenge on me for taking her back Laugh out loud (click to insert in post). Its madness i agree my mom pointed out that back in the day they locked cluster Bs up and throw away the key but with cuts backs and all they cant do that anymore as she pointed out the crazys are going to run the world soon scary thought.

Mine txted me a few nights ago saying how much she loved me but it was not enough and that she is starting to see how ville and toxic she is and understands if we cant talk anymore (after ignoring me for 2 months thats what i get Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)) then ends it with  also calling me bebe in the txt as well Laugh out loud (click to insert in post). Its nuts
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« Reply #58 on: January 23, 2012, 02:54:45 PM »

Mine txted me a few nights ago saying how much she loved me but it was not enough and that she is starting to see how ville and toxic she is and understands if we cant talk anymore (after ignoring me for 2 months thats what i get Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)) then ends it with  also calling me bebe in the txt as well Laugh out loud (click to insert in post). Its nuts

There is absolutely NO WAY I believe your ex when she says she is starting to see how vile and toxic she is.  This is impossible.  This is obviously just a part of her attempt to suck you back in to her chaos.

It's a good thing we can recognize their behaviors and, now that we have educated ourselves, we can see how truly predictable their "unpredictable" behavior really is!
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« Reply #59 on: January 23, 2012, 02:59:13 PM »

Even when they get what they want they are never happy always finding the bad.

True. They must be living a miserable life inside of them. Trying to understand who they are, figuring out their lost self by mirroring others like parrots is an awful way of living a life.

We know who pwBPD are, we know of their disorder, we know how dangerous it is for our health. Since we possess this valuable knowledge then we have NO excuse of still wanting to be with them.

At the end of the day, if we persist on wanting them back then we probably have a disorder ourselves……... its name to be discovered by science in the near future! Smiling (click to insert in post)

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« Reply #60 on: January 23, 2012, 02:59:38 PM »

oh ya i know the guilt pool as i call it was over flowing and the new toy or toys where not draining it fast enough and now that she sent that txt she can feel like oh i tried and feel better about her self cause if she really wanted to talk should would of tried again the next day havent heared anything since so ya all about her and now that feels good again can get back in bed with the new toy for guilt free fun... .sick. If i wanted to talk to someone and didnt get though the 1st time i would try later so again thats how i know its all smoke and mirrors.
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« Reply #61 on: January 23, 2012, 06:32:32 PM »

You would try later because you really wanted to get through to that PERSON. Like you have said, it's a toy thing for her. It doesn't matter who fills the void, someone has to. My ex told me that if I did not comply with what she wanted and talk to her the way she like to be spoken to, she would replace me. Her words were, "someone will have me, I'm not that bad."
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« Reply #62 on: January 23, 2012, 06:38:53 PM »

mine would never say that casue why tell them they are going to be replaced when you can do it and not tell them and maybe have both toys 2 is better then 1 after all Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #63 on: January 23, 2012, 06:41:12 PM »

Both are crazy and underhanded.
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« Reply #64 on: January 23, 2012, 07:15:13 PM »

yep sure is its the really sad part of it all is if i JUST wanted sex she might be ok with that and come back just for sex which is i think really sad. I can have sex with you but cant love you Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #65 on: January 23, 2012, 07:18:23 PM »

I think BP's love to put a spin on our reality: as people who have been abused and traumatized, they can't deal with the reality of their behaviors. On some level I think they realize how hurtful they are, yet it is too painful for them to accept this major flaw in themselves. So our disordered abusers spin our reality to make theirs less painful.  One of the most common defense mechanisms they use is of course projection, where they accuse us of having a characteristic of themselves that they find just too painful to accept. And the most frequently projected characteristic is mental illness. After all, how can us nons not be crazy and still act the way we do in our relationships with the BP?  Another common defense mechanism my BP ex used was blame shifting. "It's your fault this happened because you're not stable enough, or you're just not good for me, or bla bla bla" you get the idea.

During my BPD relationship, after a while it became hard for me to distinguish what was real from what was being projected and what was being distorted. I began to doubt my reality and question whether I was the crazy one, or whether my disordered BP ex gf was really right about what she told me.

The truth is, THEY'RE NOT RIGHT. But I think they feel better when they can get us to carry the burden of their illness and their behavior.

What's more, I have found that BP's hide their problems very effectively. People with BPD all have serious problems in coping with life. They may appear strong and stoic on the outside, but on the inside they're hypersensitive.  They have had to maintain an aura of strength on the outside in order to survive all of the abuse they suffered by repressing it.  This is because their feelings of hurt are just too overwhelming to face.  Thus, they live in constant emotional turmoil. They seek to present a very together appearance, hiding their disease from most people. It is only when we get into a close and private relationship with someone with BPD that the abusive behavior comes out. And because their lives are wracked with emotional turmoil, there is a lot of pent-up emotion that can be focused on us. Yet those around us don't see it, causing us further confusion.  

Often, it even caused us to question our own sanity.
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« Reply #66 on: January 23, 2012, 07:25:38 PM »

Mine would project cheating would act like im hiding things when im not i learned later that about 90% of the time what they are saying your doing is most likely what they been doing and the guilt pool is filling and they have no idea how to handle it so they throw it at you and hope it sticks some how.
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« Reply #67 on: January 23, 2012, 07:42:58 PM »

Oh yes I totally agree the best was when my BP ex accused me of wanting to leave her for someone else.  I remember she told me this in her car, and I demanded that she let me out.  She said, "so you can go to your other girlfriend?"  We ended up making up and trying to have a normal night together.  A few days later, she stopped taking my calls and started seeing another guy.   

Such a sick disorder.
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« Reply #68 on: January 23, 2012, 08:02:50 PM »

Yep sounds like mine

I just cant get over the fact she is acting like im stopping us from talking when she has been ignoring me for months its nuts which is why again i gave up trying to talk to her.
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« Reply #69 on: January 23, 2012, 08:06:14 PM »

Jonny,

How exactly is she acting like you are the one who is trying to stop you guys from talking? 

But this sounds very much like classic BPD behavior, mainly because it makes absolutely no sense!
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« Reply #70 on: January 23, 2012, 08:13:08 PM »

I was told that if we ever broke up, she would have to see me on the side. I don't think she has ever felt connected to anyone. Yes, her behaviour to us is repugnant but she is in total pain. I'm sure she blames me for leaving despite the fact that she left me. I can relate to that JonnyJon. From my point of view, I don't understand how a Mother who loves their child, doesn't want a good Father to have a relationship with his son.
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« Reply #71 on: January 23, 2012, 09:03:44 PM »

By sending me a txt that said if we cant talk that its ok and she dont hold it against me. I tried to txt her a week ago got nothing like i said she has been ignoring me for 2 months then sends me that! Its nuts i never told her we cant talk anymore she got that from me saying on here that im changing my number so she saw that got in to flight or fight and sent that txt makes no sense cause once again i would still talk to her but she is Ignoring me im not ignoring her.
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« Reply #72 on: January 23, 2012, 09:14:19 PM »

hahaha Jonny don't let that behavior bother you it's BPD standard operating procedure!  I just love it when my BP ex calls or texts me and when I respond all I hear back is crickets Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)

You know when the fog clears and you're not so much in love with them anymore, their childish little games appear so sad and pathetic.  They'll never learn... these BP's will just keep playing their games on unsuspecting nice guys/girls over and over again, constantly pushing away the people that care for them and forever condemning them to the state they fear the most: loneliness.  
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« Reply #73 on: January 23, 2012, 09:18:47 PM »

I know but its been 7 years off and on and still playing these dumb woe is me games. Its bull casue she has nothing to be sad over EVERYTHING that has happen has been her doing. No reason to be sad when your free to sleep around and drink and maybe get back into drugs NO REASON why cause this is all the things YOU wanted and push so hard to have happen.
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« Reply #74 on: January 24, 2012, 12:59:00 AM »

I agree with everybody here. These people are crazy like hell! They desire intimate or close relationship but yet when it gets too close, they will suddenly push you away and then turn around blame you for abandoning them. They will paint you blacker than the blackest black and proceed to dump you like a used diaper. You won't even know what had hit you. While you are languishing in excruciating pain, they just go on their own merry ways, as though nothing terrible has happened. The encounter of pwBPD is worse than encounter of the 10th kind!
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« Reply #75 on: January 24, 2012, 01:02:20 AM »

So true! I've been almost two years out and although I have made sense of what happened, I still cannot believe that she pretended to be in a serious relationship. I would not wish the experience on anyone. Especially if it results in a child.
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« Reply #76 on: January 24, 2012, 01:23:28 AM »

Everything they do is pretend Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)

Im sure mine is has a new boyfriend and he thinks its all great but in her mind its fine until he fails her which he will do cause no one can live up to the nutty standers if its not already started  and she will ether try to find another toy ( and keep the boyfriend and just lie) or try to engage me ( and lie to me and the new guy) or leave him for another guy all together maybe all 3 Laugh out loud (click to insert in post).

Its funny everyone is like you never know what they will do but be around enough and you can start to guess and be right 75% of the time Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #77 on: January 24, 2012, 08:12:16 AM »

I wonder how long it will be before the insanity of our BP exes comes out in their new relationships... my ex BP gf used to work in 6 to 8 week cycles.  I mean she was pretty much crazy all the time, but she could go on for as long as 6 weeks of acting reasonably normal.  She jotted all of her thoughts down in her diary, so I wonder if she ever noticed her own cycles.

Hard to tell, but probably not.
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« Reply #78 on: January 24, 2012, 08:18:32 AM »

I noticed her cycles were around 21 days. We managed to get the push/pull, come here, go away done and dusted inside the month. Which means there were break ups very regularly. Thinking back, I wish I had just walked away and stopped returning calls after the first or second one. I once told my ex she behaved strangely every 21 days. She seemed surprised that I had worked out her cycle, as she was previously explaining her craziness under a new heading. She had this or that or it was the medication etc. After so many ailments, I became confused about the three little letters I thought it might be. BPD.
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« Reply #79 on: January 24, 2012, 08:26:41 AM »

She seemed surprised that I had worked out her cycle, as she was previously explaining her craziness under a new heading. She had this or that or it was the medication etc. After so many ailments, I became confused about the three little letters I thought it might be. BPD.

BPDlover, never accuse your BP of being crazy to their face!  I think this includes any type of "predictable" behavior which can be attributed to an identifiable group, such as BPD's.  This is not good for your health.  They will accuse you of being an armchair psychiatrist, and then they'll go on to list some of the more crazy things that you yourself have done.  Usually, these are things you did that were almost always a result of their insane provocations.

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« Reply #80 on: January 24, 2012, 08:38:24 AM »

I never actually said to her that I thought she was crazy. She was the waif type list maker anyhow. Her Dad was caught up in some heavy slant on religion which basically denounces everything in the world so she came across as an extension of his narrow minded outlook. It was a little sad as she looked like she'd been a prisoner of their household for most of her childhood. I felt for her. I remember once texting her after the second break up. It was when she hung up on me because she didn't want to tell me she agreed to go out for a drink with another guy. Instead, I just got pushed away and she didn't take my call. I said that it was kinda psycho. Then when I talked to her, tried to illuminate the reality that you don't just agree to go out for a night with a guy if you are in a relationship. She laughed and said her ex told her she was psycho also. What followed was another discussion until the early hours of the morning where she reluctantly agree to stick with the relationship until she changed her mind that afternoon. Do I miss the fun we had? Um, no.
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« Reply #81 on: January 24, 2012, 10:37:03 AM »

The last year i told her she was crazy all the time cause she is and needs to face this. Mine will leave me then jump in with someone else then MOST of the time i start to hear from her in a few weeks mostly useless crap at 1st lots of this is for the best and i did this for you crap ( she never does anything for me its always about her even when she makes it about me) what she is really saying is I DID THIS FOR ME this is the BEST FOR ME. Druing this time she will come and go ill get a txt maybe once every few weeks then poof gone. Then as time moves on i hear from her more and more and it becomes more i love you i miss you i know we should be together but we cant or maybe when i get to a better place we can be together Laugh out loud (click to insert in post) again code for i dont like this new toy anymore i want you back BUT i dont want to get rid of the new toy and so we start lieing before we even get back together. After a time of doing this crap she then trys to come back. Then things are great for a time ( mostly i think because getting back with her is so much drama cause i have to play white knight and get rid of all these now bad toys) and like a father getting rid of a bad boyfriend i do it then when things slow down its back to drama ville and she leaves again to repeat.

Remember no matter how much they say they are gone and not coming back it means nothing like a child saying ill never eat candy again Laugh out loud (click to insert in post).
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« Reply #82 on: January 24, 2012, 10:47:39 AM »

Jonny stop letting her back into your life!  I have this problem too, my BP ex tries to re-engage with me all the time and her excuses for contacting me are always so professional.  It's such a subtle ho0vering attempt it barely floats in under my radar... I love how they do this to keep us attached when (and not if) things go wrong with the new guy/girl.  Such sick ppl... how can they not know this is crazy behavior!  Do they think it's normal to constantly switch back and forth between the new guy and the old bf?  Like what the heck!  How can they see it as normal that they triangulate so many people!  My BP used to tell me how her bf's would complain that she only used them for rides, or dinner, or company when she was lonely etc

How could she not see the reality here? 
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« Reply #83 on: January 24, 2012, 10:56:35 AM »

Im trying to keep strong its so f'ing hard when i wake up just mad out of my mind over all this. I think i get so mad cause i miss her and it makes me mad that im letting her win my missing her cause she has the power again. When im happy and things get norm i still find my self checking my phone for her not in a i wonder if she is coming back way in a i wonder if she txt like we are still together like instinct i dont even think about it just do it. Sometimes i just wish i could get a fix of her and it would be fine but its not i go though withdraw shortly after and want another.
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« Reply #84 on: January 24, 2012, 11:22:53 AM »

Yes, my upwBPD did the same thing. Once a while she would send a short but very nice email saying something like "I still love you". Then when I got all warmed up and replied, she would go silent again. I felt so sick of myself for being so stupid. She is really lower than the lowest life forms on earth and worse than scum inside a septic tank.
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« Reply #85 on: January 24, 2012, 11:30:02 AM »

I can't help but feel bad for everyone on this forum.  We all seem like such caring, concerned human beings.  It really is such a shame that we all had to suffer at the hands of this emotionally destructive disorder.

I just wonder if I make as little sense to my BP ex as she does to me...
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« Reply #86 on: January 24, 2012, 11:41:27 AM »

You know ... I've thought about this alot since you started this thread. My ex was dxBPD by 2 psychologists and a psychiatrist. When we broke up he said his dx was a mistake and he just had pstd.

Know why they don't know they are crazy?

THEY DO NOT WANT TO KNOW. It would be too much reality for them to deal with.

They are more comfortable with their chaos and misery and unhealthy patterns than they are with the alternative. Leaving their misery would be some twisted form of abandonment. Crazy can't abandon me either.
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« Reply #87 on: January 24, 2012, 11:41:52 AM »

I can't help but feel bad for everyone on this forum.  We all seem like such caring, concerned human beings.  It really is such a shame that we all had to suffer at the hands of this emotionally destructive disorder.

I just wonder if I make as little sense to my BP ex as she does to me...

I was thinking about that myself today. I think sadly, that's about the size of it. My ex was really together in some ways with periods of self-awareness. She wrote that somehow every relationship she had would turn brittle. Over time I have come to see that's true, for her. At the point where other people de-idealize each other and realize that everyone has flaws, she starts to triangulate and paint black. I watched her do it over and over with friends whose offenses were small... .or not even offenses.

It is truly sad. Without serious help I do not think she will ever have the relationship that she deserves, at least not beyond the idealization phase. Maybe, though, that phase is worth it to her... .I don't know.

I do know that I do not want that in my life any more. I have compassion for her sometimes (and anger and everything else). But I was wrong and serving my own wounds and blind spots to concentrate so much energy on her. It was arrogant to think it had to be me, or that it even could be me, that somehow my love was supernaturally powerful.

I have so many good, low-drama relationships and true friends and my issue was that I also wanted the highs and thought I was engaged in some kind of epic struggle for good in the lows, that I was growing as a person to work around her constant, terrible projection. (She used to project all her fears onto me, like she would want to lose weight and project that I wanted her to lose weight, when I didn't care unless she did.)

But I wasn't. I was getting caught up in it. I think she was unable to understand probably at least half of what I was trying to give her... .which probably means it had no value anyway. But other people do get it. ETA: Well rather, they don't need to get it... .we can enjoy things together and not be caught up in strange swamps of disaffection.
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« Reply #88 on: January 24, 2012, 11:49:34 AM »

The sad part is all these BPD have me not trusting women at all
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« Reply #89 on: January 24, 2012, 11:54:17 AM »

The sad part is all these BPD have me not trusting women at all

I still have trust issues with my BPD wife after 23

Years of marriage.  It never ends.

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« Reply #90 on: January 24, 2012, 11:57:21 AM »

The issue i have with mine we are both very stubborn people im addicted to her and she is addicted to me like we are heroin to each other. Sooner or later we go though withdraw ( more so on her end) and we come back for a fix ( again mostly on her end when i get my fix i dont want it to end when she gets her fit she is set for a time and feels she can quit it). When she leaves i go withdraw right away she takes longer ( also trys to fill the need for it with other men but it never works the same) So sooner or later i will reach out ( and almost always get kicked for it) or she will (which i try to say no and stand strong but never do cause once again im addicted) we play alittle cat and mouse with each other then we get the fix and the cycle repeats.
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« Reply #91 on: January 24, 2012, 12:06:41 PM »

Know why they don't know they are crazy?

THEY DO NOT WANT TO KNOW. It would be too much reality for them to deal with.

I think this is what it is.  They've spent their whole lives repressing and denying.  And this includes denying the fact that they are somehow mentally disordered.  It would be too emotionally overwhelming for them to realize that what little sense of self they have, is defective.
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« Reply #92 on: January 24, 2012, 01:38:25 PM »



Staff only

This thread is at a 5 page limit and it will be locked. Feel free to start a new thread.

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