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How to communicate after a contentious divorce... Following a contentious divorce and custody battle, there are often high emotion and tensions between the parents. Research shows that constant and chronic conflict between the parents negatively impacts the children. The children sense their parents anxiety in their voice, their body language and their parents behavior. Here are some suggestions from Dean Stacer on how to avoid conflict.
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Author Topic: How Can They Not Know They're Crazy  (Read 7064 times)
bpdlover
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« Reply #30 on: January 21, 2012, 11:08:41 PM »

It's so true. They often don't know they are crazy because they are crazy. It's hard for a non to really get that because we apply the stuff we have learned. One plus one equals two. I fear that my ex will train her kids in the same way. My ex's parents don't seem to do anything but enable her by bailing her out of everything that goes wrong. The ex once told me that she would be an old lady looking after stray pets living by herself. That was the future she saw. Let's hope she gets some help considering there are three kids under a roof with her and one is mine.
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« Reply #31 on: January 21, 2012, 11:37:31 PM »

... . The fact my BPD wife has come to know she has issues was the most important reason I decided to stay with her.

Amen to that. I would have stood by my ex if she had done that too! No doubt!

I consider myself incredibly lucky that my ex didn't. At the time, sure, I would have thought I wanted it. But since I was able to live without him and detach I realize that it would have never been worth it. Parts of my body have been worn out from the stress of dealing with BPD (mom and ex), and I'm not even 30 yet. No one and nothing is worth it! Being around people with BPD is hard on a person, like smoking ten packs a day.
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« Reply #32 on: January 22, 2012, 01:10:23 AM »

An experience like that is not worth repeating, I agree. It takes a huge toll on your health. I'm forever thankful that we never moved in together and had to wade through all her issues with her parents spectating from the sidelines. She said one thing to me during our last conversation that kinda told me she was never really in it to begin with. It was BPD crazy. She told me she should have ended our relationship a long time ago or near the start. What I got from that was, for her, it would have better off if we were a one night stand or had spent just a few nights together until she got what she wanted and her hit of confidence, rather than put work into a relationship which she obviously believed would fail. Maybe we should have been bed buddies but even then the emotional instability and constant games would have ended us. After almost two years to think about things, it makes sense she was using me to make her ex jealous at the end. She did a startling 360 and started talking to him again, first bragging about me, then discarding me totally to possible get back with him. I felt so cheap and alone. Never going to feel that way again, I won't let it happen.
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JonnyJon42
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« Reply #33 on: January 22, 2012, 03:42:15 AM »

BPDlover

Ya what i have seen is they cant say no lets say they do have a one night stand but the guy keeps coming back they will let him keep coming they might even let him think they are in a relationship but it might only be one sided and the BPD just lets it happen until something better comes along or they get bored of it and start cheating and lieing all over again cause the BPD person didnt not want anything more then a one night stand its the other guys fault for hanging around if that makes sense to you.
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« Reply #34 on: January 22, 2012, 04:38:09 AM »

exBPDgf: I see people around me having fun and laugh, and I wonder how can they be so happy, how can they laugh and I can’t do this.

So, how could she not know there is something wrong her? She knew…….at the MOMENT.

Their coping mechanisms kick in later and blame something else (an object) for their misery. An object can be their SO, a child, a fly passing by, a stranger that briefly starred at them, anything except themselves.

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« Reply #35 on: January 22, 2012, 06:29:04 AM »

Makes sense JonnyJon42. They don't invest possibly because they don't have anything of substance to invest with. I also found it hard to invest because I could not give her anything. She could not receive. All I wanted to do was love her by being myself. Well, I was myself but she missed that caught up in thoughts and her absent self.
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« Reply #36 on: January 22, 2012, 01:12:35 PM »

I've struggled to crack this nut myself and I guess it comes down to the core of why PD's are so hard to heal.

Firstly, the BPDs traits force a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy that justify their irrational feelings. They feel something irrational, force that feeling onto others, then the feeling is justified. They fear abandonment, chase you away in a bid to protect themselves, and you (in their eyes) 'abandon' them.

Wow! This is so true!   my uBPD asked me to help her deal with her son's special education issues with the school district because she was having deep depressions and was dealing with her other emotional issues. I spent a lot of time helping her plan the strategy, prepare documentation, etc. She was very thankful for my help. Then less than 24 hours after thanking me, suddenly out of the blue, she emailed me and said: "Stop doing everything for me! You are making me feel stressed, depressed, anxious and fearful! Can you see what you are doing to me? Why can’t you see that your actions hurt my feelings and caused a lot of harm? Why didn't you use you head?"  I was shocked. I wrote back to her telling her that I would honor her request and would stop helping her with her son's work because I didn't want to hurt her anymore. However, if she still wants me to help her down the road, I would be very happy to resume helping her and that I will always standby her all the time.  She replied: "What do mean by: if you still want my help in the future? Why do you abandon me when I need you? Why do you throw away our relationship?"  I wrote back to her telling her I have never abandoned her. She replied and said:"I don't want to hear your excuses. You are despicable and I don't want to see you anymore. Get out of my life and leave me alone so I can heal from this emotional roller-coaster ride". Her email was full of abusive and disrespectful language.

Talk about being shocked, I didn't know what hit me at that point. She never explained to me what or how I had hurt her feelings. I didn’t have a clue how I could have caused her those emotional roller-coaster rides. I didn't know anything about BPD at that time. That was 4-1/2 months ago, and I am still in shock now.  How could she PUSH me away and still have the gall to claim that I ABENDONED her?  Unbelievable!  She was the one who actively wanted a very close relationship, but each time just when our relationship got too close, she would find some reasons to push me away, and I believed her reasons. Why did I sink so low?  I didn’t know how to set boundry. Had I set appropriete boundries, I would have cut her out after the first or second time she did this to me. It’s almost 5 months now, and the wound is still very raw!

On New Year's day, I threw a party for my nephew's birthday. Unbeknownst to me, he invited her to the party too (my nephew didn’t know anything. What could I do at that point?). Well she did came to my house. She ate my food and drank my coffee. I welcomed her warmly, but she ignored me. She acted as though I didn't exist. She never spoke a word to me, even when I passed her food. Her eyes were as cold as ice and looked spaced out. She never thanked me for welcoming her to my party. Wow, talking about cruelty and heartlessness, can anyone beat this?

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« Reply #37 on: January 22, 2012, 07:38:09 PM »

Firstly, the BPDs traits force a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy that justify their irrational feelings. They feel something irrational, force that feeling onto others, then the feeling is justified. They fear abandonment, chase you away in a bid to protect themselves, and you (in their eyes) 'abandon' them.

I was reading some threads in another forum posted by PBDs admitting that they push their partners away but at the same time they want them to stay... .but can't tolerate their presence so they have to keep pushing away

NON SENSE... I remember my ex-fiance when he broke up with me he told me he will never ever forgive me for breaking his son's heart... .I was like       ... .I'm not the one who is leaving   ? ? ?
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« Reply #38 on: January 22, 2012, 07:56:06 PM »

BPDlover

Ya what i have seen is they cant say no lets say they do have a one night stand but the guy keeps coming back they will let him keep coming they might even let him think they are in a relationship but it might only be one sided and the BPD just lets it happen until something better comes along or they get bored of it and start cheating and lieing all over again cause the BPD person didnt not want anything more then a one night stand its the other guys fault for hanging around if that makes sense to you.

This makes sense to me as well, from what I know of my wife when she was younger she always had to have a "bird in hand" no matter if she wanted that one or not. Until another one came along that caught her eye.

This even figures into how I met her, she was seeing someone, claimed it wasn't going anywhere but put all her effort into me while still seeing him as well.

To be fair I was seeing someone else but I was ending that r/s.

Lucky me I traded one BPD for another.

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« Reply #39 on: January 22, 2012, 08:31:09 PM »

NON SENSE... I remember my ex-fiance when he broke up with me he told me he will never ever forgive me for breaking his son's heart... .I was like       ... .I'm not the one who is leaving   ? ? ?

Yes, but in his eyes it's your fault that he's leaving because you weren't there for him / were there too much / expected too much / didn't love him / chewed with your mouth open / [insert any excuse that absolves them from blame or responsibility].

My ex broke up with me and continues to berate me on how I "gave up on her" or "didn't fight for her". Yep, totally my fault. 
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« Reply #40 on: January 23, 2012, 02:32:24 AM »

She broke it off with me and her ex before me but it was all his fault when she talked about him to me and I bet it's all my fault when she talks about me to whoever the flavour of the minute is now. Unlikely I will speak to her again but if she ever tells me I didn't fight for her or I abandoned her, well, what's the point of a response? She isn't going to believe in reality. I didn't abandon her, she ditched both guys who had kids with her. If I get a bunch of crap about how I wasn't there for my kid, I've tried. The system supports crazy people.
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« Reply #41 on: January 23, 2012, 07:16:13 AM »

You're asking about mental illness from *your* perspective. I'm assuming that you are aware of what's normal and what's not- according to your upbringing.  At any point in her childhood, was there normal as *you* know it?

I find it interesting to think of this in terms of MY issues. I was with my H for 29 years, and the first 20 were filled with chaos and drunkenness and abandonment. Yet, even though I always knew that this was not *normal* I had no idea what to do about it. I was just as sick as he was. Often, I would join in the chaos, out of fear  ?  I had my own abandonment issues.

This is my experience exactly.

Not everyone thinks their reality is normal. They may just not know what to do about it at the time.

I grew up in screaming matches with my mom (who got into similar screaming matches with my grandfather) and I knew it wasn't how other kids grew up. I longed for a peaceful home. I just didn't know what to do about it. With my mom, I stayed silent to try and keep the peace in the house.

With my ex, I certainly knew this wasn't how it was supposed to be - but every time I would say what was bothering me, I would be punished with silent treatment and/or rages and/or threats of abandonment and/or actualy breakups. The more I got under his mask, the worse it became.

In the end, with both of them I knew that wasn't normal - but I didn't know what to do about it and felt trapped.

Now I realize it was my own fear that trapped me.

Funny - when I joined this board, I had thought I had a perfect childhood. Oh, things we end up digging.

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« Reply #42 on: January 23, 2012, 07:35:19 AM »

... .  The fact my BPD wife has come to know she has issues was the most important reason I decided to stay with her.

Amen to that. I would have stood by my ex if she had done that too! No doubt!

My ex was dx'd BPD.

Started therapy (CBT).

He was very HF. BPD/NPD comorbidity. 8/9 for both.

Of course I was ready to stand by him all the way. Knew we would not make it without his getting better.

We turned our lives upside down for each other. I moved across the ocean and changed jobs for him. He left his wife of 20 years for me (his second marriage).

But this thing was bigger than anything.

Shortly after starting therapy, he found someone else, left everything, and quit therapy.

Them knowing officially may not make a difference - or even entering therapy.

The keys are (1) STAYING and completing therapy - which may take years; and (2) the RIGHT kind of therapy (DBT for LF, or Schema for HF)

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« Reply #43 on: January 23, 2012, 09:07:43 AM »

... .  The fact my BPD wife has come to know she has issues was the most important reason I decided to stay with her.

Amen to that. I would have stood by my ex if she had done that too! No doubt!

My ex was dx'd BPD.

Started therapy (CBT).

He was very HF. BPD/NPD comorbidity. 8/9 for both.

Of course I was ready to stand by him all the way. Knew we would not make it without his getting better.

We turned our lives upside down for each other. I moved across the ocean and changed jobs for him. He left his wife of 20 years for me (his second marriage).

But this thing was bigger than anything.

Shortly after starting therapy, he found someone else, left everything, and quit therapy.

Them knowing officially may not make a difference - or even entering therapy.

The keys are (1) STAYING and completing therapy - which may take years; and (2) the RIGHT kind of therapy (DBT for LF, or Schema for HF)

My wife is in CBT right now.  I think it makes a difference with each individual and one of the primary differences I have seen is commitment to relationships and commitment to therapy.

If someone is willing to leave a relationship of 20+ years that indicates a lot less emotional stability then a BPD that has  ever gone outside the relationship.

The ones that cheat are the best liars and have the hardest time in recovery.

I think it's because once they get used to rebooting their lives every time they want that makes it very easy to avoid the repercussions of most of their BPD Behaviors.

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« Reply #44 on: January 23, 2012, 09:14:59 AM »

Life is too short to waste it living with a BP.  To be systematically raped and emotionally plundered by these people is such a waste of energy.  

Unless they have fully recovered, STAY AWAY FROM THEM.  As long as they are in therapy and on drugs, and still exhibiting the same behaviors, they will only wreak havoc in your life.

My BP ex gf is on medication and in therapy.  Surely she MUST realize that at least something is wrong with her if she has resorted to these ways of "getting better."  And my ex used to talk about how she used to be even worse before the therapy/drugs, as she'd sometimes start crying over even the most innocuous comments!  Her own observation here that she was capable of getting better was surely at least an indication that there was something wrong with her, no?

Despite all of the evidence of her craziness and her history of crazy, broken relationships, it's amazing how this disorder can still drive me crazy enough to make it look like I'm the one who was nuts in our relationship.
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« Reply #45 on: January 23, 2012, 09:30:56 AM »

Gosh, it's so sad to see others suffering the same kind of emotional gaslighting. It's just... .depressing. In recent months, its been told to my family dxBPDgf has said ALL her problems were because of me. She "only" has PTSD now because of me. I made her slash on herself, throw herself down the stairs for attention, suicide attempt, steal and lie. It makes me sick so many others suffer from this abuse as well.

You are not alone ... .My ex also was formally dxBPD (2 psychologists and a psychiatrist) and after the break up I was told that it was never BPD it was PSTD and I was part of the cause for it. Yup ... been there, done that ... .
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« Reply #46 on: January 23, 2012, 09:53:51 AM »

Unfortunately the odds of them realizing something is wrong are non-existent let alone their recovery from a lengthy and persistent therapy.

They might realize it only for a brief moment. Same with therapy, they might start but will eventually paint the therapist black and flee.

Sometimes I wonder what’s wrong with US wanting them so bad!


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JonnyJon42
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« Reply #47 on: January 23, 2012, 11:10:46 AM »

Mine has moments where she will say she is starting to see it but its never i really am this and i need help
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avoidatallcost
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« Reply #48 on: January 23, 2012, 11:22:58 AM »

I think it's even worse when your BP ex is actually getting help.  It should be somewhat easier to leave knowing there is ABSOLUTELY NO PROSPECT that your ex will get better.  And I say "somewhat" only because it's never actually easy to leave a BP.

So don't kick yourselves over the fact that they're not getting help.  Even if they are getting help, this is even worse in my opinion because the BP will only continue with their destructive borderline behaviors, only these will be more well-hidden, subtle, and will only be unleashed gradually over time.  Them seeking help, IMO, only makes the situation worse for the non-BP in the relationship.  It makes you stick around longer, and suffer even more than you normally would.  This is because you make even more excuses for the BP's behavior, such as "at least the BP is getting help" and "at least the BP recognizes they have a problem" and "hey now the BP is getting help maybe they will get better" etc etc this only makes you stick around longer and suffer even more than ever.  And by sticking around longer, it makes it even more difficult to leave in the end. 

It's a vicious, never ending cycle, until the BP breaks it off with you because they have found someone new. 

But the thing is, as long as they have BPD they will never get better.  The only time you should allow a BP in your life is if they're completely "cured" of BPD.  I doubt this can ever happen, but I've heard it can so I'll remain somewhat open to this suggestion. 
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JonnyJon42
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« Reply #49 on: January 23, 2012, 11:30:10 AM »

I can see what your saying avoid

I would if my ex came back and was truthful on why she left and really was going to get help i would forgive and try to help her BUT would i get back with her... .no it would take alot of me seeing she is REALLY trying to get help and to see a change in behaver and way more openness and honesty and for her to take her part and REALLY understand her part in all this.

Trust can be rebuilt but it takes time and honesty which is something BPD cant give
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avoidatallcost
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« Reply #50 on: January 23, 2012, 11:33:29 AM »

JonnyJon this is malignant optimism at work again.  It'll take years of intense targeted therapy for her to even start improving her behavior.  This forum is full of stories of borderline partners "improving" their behavior, but the relationships were still totally unbearable for the non.

While your BP ex is getting help, she will still be making you mentally ill.  It's the prime objective of her disorder.  You shouldn't have to get yourself sick while she tries to get herself better.  This isn't fair to you.  We need to find people who are healthy and will bring us up instead of trying to destroy us and take us down with them.
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JonnyJon42
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« Reply #51 on: January 23, 2012, 11:40:30 AM »

Laugh out loud (click to insert in post) im not holding my breath if thats how im coming off. I dont believe she wants to get help anyways in her world she is unhelpable. Again though i wouldn't take her back but i would be there to help if she asked but you might be right it could all be a trap and if not a trap turn into one. She is far to toxic of a person hurts almost everybody she touches then walks away like nothing happen or acts like she gave it her all when she gave nothing.

What i love is how they can say i cant be with you cause i see the damage i cause i need to be alone for along time then 5 mins later with another guy Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)
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avoidatallcost
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« Reply #52 on: January 23, 2012, 11:50:21 AM »

I know how you feel... they're great at manipulating people.  I have a friend who works at a hospital psych ward, and she tells me they deliberately avoid taking on borderlines because they're so adept at manipulating therapists against each other.  So if they're this good at manipulating trained professionals, you can see just how much of a chance good, caring, uneducated (at the time!) people like me and you must have stood!
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JonnyJon42
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« Reply #53 on: January 23, 2012, 01:06:30 PM »

yep my mom has a master in psychology and works for the state and says she will not work with any cluster B PD cause of the lies and games your almost never getting though to them but they will make you believe with all your might you are. My mom even gets sucked into my BPDex sht just kinda of got mad of me the other night for not calling her on her birthday ( keep in mind my ex has been ignoreing me for 2 months Laugh out loud (click to insert in post) and my mom still thought i should of tried. )
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avoidatallcost
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« Reply #54 on: January 23, 2012, 01:10:02 PM »

very interesting... I'd love to hear what some of her experiences with BP's are like! 

Looking back at how naive and simple I was and totally ignorant about BPD when I started seeing my BP ex, I had no idea what kind of a horror movie I was walking into.  I was such a sitting duck, thinking if I loved this person and showed her I would never leave that eventually she would grow to trust me. 

Little did I know that my attempts to shower her with love were to have the opposite effect: they would make her hate me even more and she would systematically destroy my self esteem as well as my sanity!
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JonnyJon42
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« Reply #55 on: January 23, 2012, 01:35:33 PM »

yep i feel the same way

The more i loved her the more i forgave her the more i took her back the more she seem to hate me after the fact. At 1st was always im so lucky to have someone who loves me and can forgive me then a few weeks later all the lies and crap start up worse then the last time.

Its so odd they will chase you to the ends the earth to get a i forgive you and we can make this work out of you only to turn around and be like really what kind of man takes this from a women he is weak i need someone stronger.

Even when they get what they want they are never happy always finding the bad.
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« Reply #56 on: January 23, 2012, 02:02:51 PM »

For nons, BPD is definitely a lose-lose situation.  I've read some books regarding how to counter the insane behaviors of BP's, by setting boundaries and handing out consequences to the BP when their behavior crosses the line.

But is this how we're supposed to live the one life we're given on Earth?  By walking on eggshells and constantly performing relationship calculus?  What kind of a relationship is this where we have to leave the person we love for days at a time in order to "punish" their treatment of us?  Will this actually ever work?

I know in my situation, I think I tried every possible avenue I could.  In the end, my ex's BPD always kicked my ass no matter what I did.  When something didn't work in one situation, I tried the opposite method in the next situation and still it would not work!  No matter what I said or did, it was always twisted and turned against me!
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« Reply #57 on: January 23, 2012, 02:17:19 PM »

With mine it almost seems like when i took her back then she need to get revenge on me for taking her back Laugh out loud (click to insert in post). Its madness i agree my mom pointed out that back in the day they locked cluster Bs up and throw away the key but with cuts backs and all they cant do that anymore as she pointed out the crazys are going to run the world soon scary thought.

Mine txted me a few nights ago saying how much she loved me but it was not enough and that she is starting to see how ville and toxic she is and understands if we cant talk anymore (after ignoring me for 2 months thats what i get Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)) then ends it with  also calling me bebe in the txt as well Laugh out loud (click to insert in post). Its nuts
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« Reply #58 on: January 23, 2012, 02:54:45 PM »

Mine txted me a few nights ago saying how much she loved me but it was not enough and that she is starting to see how ville and toxic she is and understands if we cant talk anymore (after ignoring me for 2 months thats what i get Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)) then ends it with  also calling me bebe in the txt as well Laugh out loud (click to insert in post). Its nuts

There is absolutely NO WAY I believe your ex when she says she is starting to see how vile and toxic she is.  This is impossible.  This is obviously just a part of her attempt to suck you back in to her chaos.

It's a good thing we can recognize their behaviors and, now that we have educated ourselves, we can see how truly predictable their "unpredictable" behavior really is!
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« Reply #59 on: January 23, 2012, 02:59:13 PM »

Even when they get what they want they are never happy always finding the bad.

True. They must be living a miserable life inside of them. Trying to understand who they are, figuring out their lost self by mirroring others like parrots is an awful way of living a life.

We know who pwBPD are, we know of their disorder, we know how dangerous it is for our health. Since we possess this valuable knowledge then we have NO excuse of still wanting to be with them.

At the end of the day, if we persist on wanting them back then we probably have a disorder ourselves……... its name to be discovered by science in the near future! Smiling (click to insert in post)

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