Lets be honest

[Applehead]

if our SO bc unattractive for any reason it would make it much easier to put them behind us.  I sometimes wish my exBPD woman would age faster or gain weight so that other men wouldn't find her as attractive and force her to look harder at herself.  Also, the thought of someone being intimate with her makes me nauseated!  I believe that many of us don't leave for this reason too!  If they bc ugly things would be simple.  Physical beauty should be this important but it is!  Also being a man, unless you're famous, there is no way in hell that we could compete with a beautiful woman in getting attention.  They can go out any time and meet men or get sex!  They might come across a bunch of losers but bucks are in great supply, it takes time for men to meet women and when you go out to bars its by far more dudes than hens.  I hate this! Lol!

[marbleloser]

I think it depends on what we needed to make ourselves feel better about "US",Apple. My exBPDgf wasn't very attractive physically.It was the attention and affection that I loved.The thought that someone loved me for me,and thought about me enough to write letters and cards when we were apart,wanted to talk to me,found me interesting,etc.,, It helped that she had this energy about her too.Always upbeat and confident around me.It made me think that I was the cause of that.(ego boost)

Maybe,you just needed someone physically attractive thrown into the mix with the rest,because you view that as giving YOU value and worth.Kinda like a woman who feels valuable on the arm of a rich man.

Once we allowed that person to determine our worth and value,if they said or did anything to undermine that, we believed it and felt it.By finding our value inside ourselves,what another person thinks of us won't matter.We'll be content being us and we won't feel the need to be anything else to impress anyone.I think that's where we can enjoy a RS with someone.When we can just be us and they can be themselves,and together we can enjoy who the other is,rather than what they can do for us.

I gotta admit,being adored,cherished,loved,etc., felt pretty damn good though.

[ellil]

You are correct, at least for me. And my ex was so handsome women would look at him even in front of me. And sex was right up there tied for the number one spot with looks.

It definitely made it too hard to leave, but eventually his crazy won out.

I did see a picture of him recently and he's lost probably 60 pounds and instead of looking 57, he looks 75. I was so shocked and sad, so I guess my replacement hasn't improved his happiness.

M

[Clearmind]

Ah yes the ole you are so damn attractive! I hear you... .

What attracted me initially was his looks and physique never mind all the intricacies that make a 'real' relationship work.

I was so caught up in the gorgeousness that my brain froze over. I have since examined this and his looks when we broke up was my last hook to unhook ~ I didn't feel that my looks stacked up to his so I mirrored and felt like cinderella, complete with coachman for a while. I felt lucky that he wanted me ~ well No! ~ beauty runs deep and its not just a facade ~ that is shallow relating and I now think more highly of myself and no longer compare. This is self defeating. Self worth is key to not seek a BPD #2 and to unhook us... .

How do you feel about you Applehead?

[Applehead]

Clear and marble, y'all are correct!  Beauty and idolization are my Achilles and I need to work on myself and get to the bottom of this in me.

[PDQuick]

Picture, if you will, a beautiful woman in a bar. All of the men have noticed her. She is full of life, animated in her movements, and her face lights up when she is talking about something that she is interested in. She is indeed, an intriguing woman.

Bachelor A walks up to her, and asks if he can buy her a drink. The night is young. The music is loud. The possibilities are endless.

As they talk, she tells him of her past boyfriend, and how rocky that relationship was. She asks for another drink, rather than waiting for one to be offered. As she loosens up due to the alcohol, the conversation turns to sex. She talks of how wild her sex life is, and how many partners she has had. She is almost bragging. She says that all of her former lovers stalk her because the sex is so good. She has had to call the cops on so many people, that the officers know her by first name. Now she wants to dance.

Bachelor A walks her out on the dance floor. As he does, she makes eye contact with many men, smiling at them. Then her hips start to move with the music. She starts dancing almost like she is having sex in the club. She is completely uninhibited. She bends down, and backs up to our Bachelor, and starts grinding him. This all takes place within 30 minutes of the meeting. During the dance, she falls forth, onto him, and starts kissing him.


What is going on in our Bachelor's mind? Lets take a different Bachelor, and give him the same scenario. How would he react? We will call him Bachelor B.


Before we begin with their perceptions, lets give you a little background on our boys here.

Bachelor A has self esteem issues. He hasn't grown up in an emotionally healthy home, and isn't mindful of his own thoughts, feelings, emotions, and motives. He knows he desires something, but is unclear as to what it is he wants, and what it is he needs. He believes the love of a beautiful woman will make him happy, so this is his ultimate goal. He has used this before, and has had very limited results.

Bachelor B is very mindful of his thoughts, feelings, emotions, and motives. His self esteem is in tact, and is grounded in the knowledge that he is a good guy, worth loving because of himself. He grew up in an emotionally sound home, where he was taught how to believe in himself, and what true love is. He is a happy man, and wants a woman who is happy herself, and wants to share life's experiences with a woman.

Now, lets revisit the scenario with Bachelor A. I am going to speak like I am him.

As they talk, she tells him of her past boyfriend, and how rocky that relationship was.

Hot Damn, She is single, and I have a chance because I am sitting here with her. She is smiling at me, it's a good sign.

She asks for another drink, rather than waiting for one to be offered.

Oh good, she is getting intoxicated. My chances are going up. I will buy her drinks all night if I have to.

As she loosens up due to the alcohol, the conversation turns to sex. She talks of how wild her sex life is, and how many partners she has had. She is almost bragging.

Man, she is going to make me feel so great! She is smoking hot, I bet she is good. She is talking sex with me, so my guess is it is going to happen tonight.

She says that all of her former lovers stalk her because the sex is so good. She has had to call the cops on so many people, that the officers know her by first name.

Really? That many guys want her? If I get with her, so many people will want to be me! I will be worshipped! All of my friends will be jealous. This girl is going to be the best thing that has ever happened to me. I love life.

Now she wants to dance. Bachelor A walks her out on the dance floor. As he does, she makes eye contact with many men, smiling at them.

Man, look at all of the guys just staring at her. They all want to be me. I am better than all of these guys, because I am with her.  

Then her hips start to move with the music. She starts dancing almost like she is having sex in the club. She is completely uninhibited. She bends down, and backs up to our Bachelor, and starts grinding him. This all takes place within 30 minutes of the meeting.

This girl is really into me. She likes me, and likes me a lot. She must like me a lot, because 30 minutes ago, we didn't even know each other. She should, because I am a great guy. I'm going to show her how great of a guy I am. I am going to show all of these people in this bar just how great of a guy I am. I am going to prove it by getting this girl!

During the dance, she falls forth, onto him, and starts kissing him.

FINALLY! Success! She is mine! We are going to have such a great time. I can see myself married to this girl.


Now, lets go through this with Bachelor B. Lets see how he reacts, and what he thinks.

As they talk, she tells him of her past boyfriend, and how rocky that relationship was.

Wow, it sounds like she has had a bad relationship. I wonder if she is even ready for another one? I don't believe she is, because I just met her, and she is already talking about her ex. It's still very fresh on her mind. I will see how it goes.

She asks for another drink, rather than waiting for one to be offered.

Hmmm. That's a little odd. She seems to feel entitled to another drink. Her priorities seem to be drinking, rather than having a conversation with me. I hope she doesn't get too intoxicated.

As she loosens up due to the alcohol, the conversation turns to sex. She talks of how wild her sex life is, and how many partners she has had. She is almost bragging.

Now she is talking about sex? I think I see what is happening here. She is hurt emotionally maybe, and is looking to use someone to shore up her own self esteem. I am just a guy, nothing special. I mean, she doesn't like me for me, she doesn't even know me. I have yet to tell her anything about me. She is just talking about herself. I know I am not that special as to think that this woman is into me, she is just into the idea of what I can do for her. She wants to use me as a pawn.  

She says that all of her former lovers stalk her because the sex is so good. She has had to call the cops on so many people, that the officers know her by first name.

I can see running into one guy that wont let go, but all of her ex's? She must have really put them through the ringer. I know that if I want to see how I am going to be treated, all I have to do is look at the last guy she interacted with. If she talks bad about him, she will eventually end up talking bad about me. I bet she would even tell the next guy that I had stalked her. This woman thinks way too much of herself, and her abilities. What is she good for, other than sex and drama? I don't think I want that in my life.

Now she wants to dance. Bachelor B walks her out on the dance floor. As he does, she makes eye contact with many men, smiling at them.

Ok, I was right. Look at her flirting with all of these other guys. She is making sure that she catches someone tonight, by casting a wide net. I am not special to her. She only wants someone for what they can do for her. That is obvious.  

Then her hips start to move with the music. She starts dancing almost like she is having sex in the club. She is completely uninhibited. She bends down, and backs up to our Bachelor, and starts grinding him. This all takes place within 30 minutes of the meeting.

OMG! Do you see this? I cant believe she is doing this with me, after only 30 minutes. She is showing me that if she would do this with me, she would do this with anyone. I would never be able to trust her. I can't have a woman that I couldn't trust. She is a beautiful woman, but she isn't anything close to what I want or need. She would drive me crazy, and I would want to change her too much. I have enjoyed our time, but I have to get away from her. She is trouble.

During the dance, she falls forth, onto him, and starts kissing him.

I am out of here. I have proven my point.



Now, this goes on all of the time. Bachelor A is nothing more than an enabler. If he ends up in a relationship, he will be jealous, untrusting, and will have internal conflicts because he loves the value and happiness he feels that he has with her, but he doesn't realize what is going on, and feels he has to change her to make her stay.

Bachelor B, well, by him walking away, he served up the best chance of teaching her a lesson, but she wasn't ready to learn, so she just got someone else to fill his shoes. He wasn't that special to her after all. He was right.

So Applehead, which one are you?

[ellil]

I don't know where applehead is, but I think I still have a lot of work to do.

M

[PDQuick]

I don't know where applehead is, but I think I still have a lot of work to do.

M

Would you care to expand on this Ellil?

[marbleloser]

"She won't be lonely long"- Clay Walker .

Sorry,couldn't resist.

[2010]

She is showing me that if she would do this with me, she would do this with anyone. I would never be able to trust her. I can't have a woman that I couldn't trust. She is a beautiful woman, but she isn't anything close to what I want or need. She would drive me crazy, and I would want to change her too much. I have enjoyed our time, but I have to get away from her. She is trouble.

Excellent writing, PDQuick! This is a must read! 

[PDQuick]

I wrote that out of sheer experience. I have been both guys.  ;p

[yianks69]

PDQuick, your earlier post is a MUST read for EVERYONE in this community.

Sometimes we have to be reminded about real life experiences in order to land back to Earth.

[ellil]

I don't know where applehead is, but I think I still have a lot of work to do.

M

Would you care to expand on this Ellil?

Ok, PDQ, you party pooper, you buzzkill, don't mind if me do.

I thought I was doing really, really well. I honestly did. I thought my boundaries were in place, that I knew what I wanted and how to read the problem areas, especially my own.

Then I read your scene.

And as I was reading, and switching the sexes to bachelorette and hot guy, I knew exactly which bachelorette I still was. It's as if the drug addiction is still there. No doo doo, it's like I imagine drug addiction, say, heroine, and having been off of it a while, and thinking you're past it and good to go, then someone starts talking about it and your blood gets pumping and you think, Geez, man, I want to do some of that right now.

I don't think I'm past my "addiction" to the intensity and passion of the relationship. I don't think I want the slow, getting to know you, enjoying watching things unfold. I still think I might want that immediate gratification, that superficial "Man he looks so good on my arm and feels so good [plug in whatever you like]."

I was thinking that the self esteem issues I hadn't been aware of were more in the rear view than the front window, but your scenario points out that may not be the case.

I do know I'm still not wanting the long, slow road and would love to have the hot, fun guy still.

I am still not where the safe place to be is.

But then again, some days are better than others and I've got 50 years past history to work on.

And this is exactly why I think it's best to focus on my daughter and me and keep away from dating and relationships for a long time. She's entering high school now and I think I probably should dedicate those years to she and me.

I'm 50 and right now I think I'm ok with being alone even if it's forever, and that's certainly better than getting involved in the WRONG relationship.

M

[Mariposa]

I've not read all of the other posts, so I may repeat something already said! But your post is so true! When me and my exBPDso broke up, I used to always say to my friends and family 'if only he was ugly, it would make this break-up so much easier'. Shallow, I know, but true! He was also very charming and had a lot of other good points, but he is so, so handsome!

[Mariposa]

Wow, PDQuick! I'm a girl, but I am def bachelor A! I sussed out a while ago that I was an enabler and I only made things worse, and boy did I change a lot just to try and keep him! I've certainly learned my lesson for next time. Brilliant analogy   

[Applehead]

PDQuick, In college I was bachelor A, but over the past 20 years I'm bachelor B.  I've turned down sex from smack queens all the time through the years and I'm more into "Nice Girls" that are hot and have morals!  But I understand where you're coming from.  I really do think like bachelor B but when I have a ridiculously hot classy girl that doesn't dress promiscuous but dresses conservatively fashionable, is nice, cool, down to earth, intelligent and idolizes me then I'm hooked!  Lol! Then when the hater comes out of left field I'm confused!  Then when she just tells me out of the blue that she can't see me any more then I'm hurt!  Then she paints me black and smears me and hates me for no reason then I'm really really hurt and confused and in the past blame myself for being a sucker and beat myself up for spending money on her and letting her get into my heart.  Also I wonder what I did wrong even though I know she's bunny boiler!  Then I wonder why I just can't meet a norm girl who happens to be hot, nice, cool and intelligent!

The problem is that many guys get fooled by my women bc mine resemble the hot ex sorority girl that is now 40 and passes the classy test and goes from serious r/s to serious r/s and I meet her thinking she is Miss Right.  It seems like my women look like Miss Right instead of Miss Right Now!  My problem then is that I need to 86 Miss Right in the idolization Phase bc of red flags that stick up instead of letting her get to me and knowing the hater is around the corner levitating with her head spinning around and spewing pea soup all over my Polo shirt! Lol!  I have sent many a crazy on their way but a few have flow under the radar and I must admit that it's intoxicating have cool men and women tell me how beautiful my gf is!  Most of mine have fooled most of my friends in the idolization phase.

[Applehead]

PDQuick, Then when the hater comes out…The hater never comes out until they know "You're Diggin Their Chilli" and I think that I can fix anything bc I'm smart and charming and it's a challenge!  I stay out front for a while but BPD always wins and I'm back to hurt and confused!  The Idolization Phase is the ideal time to end it but if this woman is good and unfortunately mine are, it's hard for me in the Hater Phase to walk away bc I'm diggin their chilli!  Again, I've gotten rid of many that I liked but the few that I REALLY LOVED, it's hard for me to walk!  I think that it's going to be a long time before I meet another that I love like this and the thought of another man mauling her is gut wrenching to me bc I'm competitive!  Plus, I lie to myself bc I want her and think I'm special and can make it work!  How delusional is that!  I REALLY am my worst enemy!  This has been the case for about 10 women in my 47 y/o(Monday is my bday) life.

[dimin]

Bachelor B is very mindful of his thoughts, feelings, emotions, and motives. His self esteem is in tact, and is grounded in the knowledge that he is a good guy, worth loving because of himself. He grew up in an emotionally sound home, where he was taught how to believe in himself, and what true love is. He is a happy man, and wants a woman who is happy herself, and wants to share life's experiences with a woman.

This is something I always come across when reading about self esteem.  I've talked to my T in depth about self esteem vs self confidence and it seems I have very low self esteem, but a lot of self confidence.  So how does someone who did not come from an emotionally sound home help themselves to grow this self esteem?

[PDQuick]

I've talked to my T in depth about self esteem vs self confidence and it seems I have very low self esteem, but a lot of self confidence. 

Ok Applehead, take note, because we have a winner here. Dimin, you have hit the proverbial nail, not only on the head, but you drove it through the board!

Self esteem versus self confidence. What are they, and what are the differences?

Self confidence is a tricky thing. Although it is a good thing, it can be misapplied and be a disaster. Self confidence is a confidence in your own abilities to do something.

The game has 3 seconds left, and we are 2 down. I want the ball because I have the self confidence in myself to know that I can make the 3 point jump shot and win the game.

The guitarist for the band has gotten sick. I have the self confidence to get out there, and take his place, because I have the ability to follow the music, despite not knowing the songs that they are playing.

Self confidence only works in situations where the control, and responsibility rest on your shoulders. It is a faith in yourself, because of your experience, and expertise in things that bring about self confidence.

Where it bites us in the butt, is when we cant control things, and we don't have the responsibility for the outcomes. Like changing someone, or assuring that they learn a lesson at hand. The other person has sole responsibility and control over their actions. We just end up hoping and wishing for the outcomes we want, thinking we can alter them to fit our own desires.

Take Bachelor A. As the night goes on, he gains a false sense of self confidence that he is going to feel pretty good at the end of the night. The more interest that she shows him, he sees that he is the focus of her desire. He wants to feel good about himself. That is his goal. Each grind, each kiss, each bit of attention, gives him the confidence in himself that he is going to reach his goal. So as his false sense of confidence builds, he focuses on his goal, and cannot see it failing. When it does, he is left baffled. He is left there, trying to figure out what happened, when he was so sure that things were gonna go his way.

Now, Bachelor B has a good self esteem, and feels good about himself. He doesn't need the validation from any woman to allow him to feel special. He knows he is special for who he is. He doesn't need to be seen with a beautiful woman to make him feel better about himself, but he does enjoy a beautiful woman. He doesn't need attention from a beautiful woman, but he enjoys it. He doesn't need anyone to look upon him as being lucky, or want to be him. That thought never enters his mind. What he wants is the love of a woman that loves him for the person he is, not just some need filler for the night. He knows what he wants, and he knows that he is worth the love of a good woman, and is kind enough to give himself that, even if it means waiting. He also knows that he terribly dislikes drama, and he sees this woman for what she is, and that she is full of drama. So he kindly walks away from her. He could have taken her for the night, but he didn;t want all of the drama that comes along with it, and he wasn't going to devalue himself with this experience.

Bachelor B has a good self esteem.

Bachelor A has a good false sense of self confidence.

[PDQuick]

So how does someone who did not come from an emotionally sound home help themselves to grow this self esteem?

Dimin, the first thing I had to do was to learn the rules of life, and relationships, because I had those all messed up. I thought I could change things, when I cant. I was hard wired to look for one thing, not understanding that there are many sides to everything. I had to learn what I could, and could not do. I had to accept these things, and start working within them. Its kind of hard playing the game when you don't even know the rules.

Then I had to confront, and make peace with my own demons. I had to look back and realize that my parents did the best that they could, but didn't give me the right tools for an emotionally healthy adulthood. I had to learn those tools. And then I had to practice them. I had to learn to understand and forgive.

I then had to look inside of myself and see the good guy I am, without all of the pain that I had put myself through. I had to become the person I wanted to be. I had to look at friendships, and decide if they were good, or bad, and get rid of the bad ones. I had to learn to deal with my codependence.

It was a lot of work, but it was so rewarding.

[dimin]

Dimin, the first thing I had to do was to learn the rules of life, and relationships, because I had those all messed up. I thought I could change things, when I cant. I was hard wired to look for one thing, not understanding that there are many sides to everything. I had to learn what I could, and could not do. I had to accept these things, and start working within them. Its kind of hard playing the game when you don't even know the rules.

Then I had to confront, and make peace with my own demons. I had to look back and realize that my parents did the best that they could, but didn't give me the right tools for an emotionally healthy adulthood. I had to learn those tools. And then I had to practice them. I had to learn to understand and forgive.

I then had to look inside of myself and see the good guy I am, without all of the pain that I had put myself through. I had to become the person I wanted to be. I had to look at friendships, and decide if they were good, or bad, and get rid of the bad ones. I had to learn to deal with my codependence.

It was a lot of work, but it was so rewarding.

Thanks PDQuick.  I'm really glad my post prompted you to further elaborate on Bachelor A / B and address my question also.

I can really relate to thinking that oneself can change things.  I knew of exBPDgf's disorder, but went back for more because I was determined to fix her.  She was a project and I fell in love with trying to complete the project.  No matter how poorly she treated me, I would go back for more, why?  If I didn't I looked at it as a failure and because of my lack of self-esteem, this translates into me being a failure.

I have forgiven my parents and realized the same thing, that they did the best they could.  Learning to understand and forgive is something I need to get better at, I'm glad you mentioned those facets.

I pruned a lot of my friendships recently and I'm down to two people.  Now I just need to keep working to find some more friends.  I've just been stuck in a rut where I no longer feel like a good guy.  Not only did my exBPDgf tear me down over the years, but I also played right into her game and became a person I no longer recognize.  I acted out in ways I never would have imagined and because of this I am ashamed.