I dont do denial

[InHerCrosshair]

I have been posting on boards about ending the relationship, do I stay or do I go, and what's wrong with me; and now I'm posting on this board. I want to explore all the options and this is the only option yet to be discussed.

For those who havent seen my other posts, I'll be short and sweet. The BPD is half my age. We work together. Im married and have never strayed. I intend to keep it that way. I was assigned to be her mentor and she fell in love with me. I thought we were good friends and have since learned the truth about her and how she feels; and there are some really creepy parts, but only because they are the actions of a child and not a healthy 29 year old.

My wife is very very sick and may not have much more time. It all depends on if she can have an operation, and if it works. I am a month away from knowing if she can have it. The BPD knows all this and seems to be trying to control me and keep me on a string so she can replace my wife. The BPD already tried to be my lover on the side and I held her off. But that just triggered the Hater phase.

I have been following the advice of my T and the advisers in here for the past 3 months and I am miserable.

I pushed her into putting me in a time out, which she then tried to undo the next day. I turned it into NC. I went out of my way to show her that I wanted nothing to do with her. I would only say 'Hi' if she spoke to me, and then walk away. I feel that all I have accomplished is to further upset the BPD, send her a hugely confusing message, and motivated her to dig in and try even harder to 'get me back'. It has created a very awkward work environment and I am not in a position to just run out and get a new job.

Im a rescuer, so I recognize that this has a lot to do with my faults as well. That said, it is really hard for me to see how sad she is now. She wants me to re-engage and I have been holding firm. I am pleasant and professional with her, but that is a far cry from the level of friendship we once shared.

There is unfinished business between me and the BPD. We need closure, or I need to be able to reconcile with my friend in a way that makes it clear to everyone that SHE AND ME WILL NEVER BE anything more than friendly coworkers. Or at the very least, I want to be able to sit her down and give her some sort of explanation about why I suddenly changed... .even if it's not the absolute truth. (I have no intention of telling her that I found out she is mentally disturbed). To leave things as they are is to live in denial that the unfinished business is there, and I don't do denial.

So how do I achieve my goal?

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[pallavirajsinghani]

There is unfinished business in YOUR mind.  You will have to deal with it with the help of your own support system (T, us).

There is unfinished business in HER mind.  She will have to deal with it with the help of her own support system.

You both are parallels.  The unfinished business cannot be resolved TOGETHER.  It is each of your's individual load to carry.

Dealing with all this, helps you take your mind off of your wife's illness.  I wonder if your pre-occupation with your co-worker is a coping mechanism.  This way, you won't be pre-occupied with your wife's impending demise (you mentioned that the illness is terminal).  Facing mortality is facing the biggest terror possible... .it is terror at the very visceral level.

Perhaps the closure you are seeking will begin to occur when you begin to face your wife's mortality at deeper and deeper levels of your consciousness.

Denial of what I am saying will be at the deepest core of your psyche.  It will take you some deep personal pain and personal ego-dysregulation to even consider the probability of my statement.  Do talk to your T about this... .

God bless you my friend... .I simply adore my husband and can't even fathom the pain of what you are going through.

[InHerCrosshair]

I do know that this is in part a coping mechanism. My concerns about the coworker flared when I was told I would have to wait another month before the surgeon would make is decision on the operation. So I am not in any sort of denial in that regard.

I agree that we are parallels and must each come to terms with our own feelings. My feeling is that if we could have at least one more conversation together that we might each get the answers we need so we CAN come to terms.

Thanks for the support. I can use all I can get.

[Whatwasthat]

I do know that this is in part a coping mechanism. My concerns about the coworker flared when I was told I would have to wait another month before the surgeon would make is decision on the operation. So I am not in any sort of denial in that regard.

This makes complete sense to me IHC. Of course when facing terrible uncertainty of this sort we look for other things to occupy our minds - because some things are just too hard to look at all the time - and not having any control over the most important things in life is very difficult.

So do you think that because the 'big' thing in your life is so painfully out of your control at the moment that it would make you want to try and 'fix' (hence 'control' the situation with your co-worker? That this might make you look for ways to  'complete unfinished business' with her?

I see why you might need a distraction.

But there are dangers here. Because there may be other things you should be focusing on instead and you might look back in years to come and regret not having attended to them. In my experience of the illness and death of loved ones it's very important to try and remain as much as you can in the moment with them and do things and talk about things that help you and them. This is very hard. But not doing it is harder in the end. Does your therapist help you think about this and work out how to do it?  I think they should be able to do that.

When my father was very ill and drugged up to the eyeballs and could no longer speak it was unclear if he could hear what was being said to him. He was like this for some time and it felt as if he had already 'gone' - but he hadn't. I talked to a friend who was a counsellor who suggested massaging his hands and feet with lavender oil. It seemed to relax him and it helped me. I wanted to carry on showing him love for as long as I could. Now - many years later - this is the thing I remember about those awful weeks. And I only wish there had been more opportunity to do things like this. If we keep showing love in as many ways as we can to the people who matter to us most then we can't go very far wrong - even at the worst times in life.

Sending you and your family healing and comforting wishes.

[InHerCrosshair]

I think that it exactly what is going on with me here. It is in part how I came be so wrapped up in helping the BPD. I've stated this in previous posts. I was focusing on helping her because I had no control over the problems at home. I even told the BPD that and at the time she seemed very understanding.

I know now that she was posing as the person she knew I wanted her to be. She was all about taking me away from my family and keeping me for herself. I have no doubt that if not for my moral character I would have slept with her at some point and my life would be in complete ruins. I would be ravaged with guilt for having betrayed my wife during her darkest hours. I would be devastated by the alienation of my daughter. And I would probably be a hopeless drunk trying to cope with the unstable and unfaithful woman I had thrown my life away for.

I am like a child who can't stop picking a scab right now. I have been wrestling with the questions about trying to reconcile within a firmly controlled framework for the past week. This afternoon as I was doing laundry etc... .I began to remember the frightening things the BPD did and the psychotic eyes she has occasionally thrown at me. I remembered the cruel and heartless comments she made to me about my wife as she flirted and flaunted her body in my cubicle. I remembered how truly disturbed she is.

I can't fix this situation either.

Thanks for the wishes.

[waverider]

It is the rescuer in your make up that is getting you into trouble here. You cant rescue our wife and and feel helpless there, so you are trying to "rescue" this other person in a way. A case of transference of your needs to rescue someone maybe.

Hence you cant just stick to NC and damn the consequences, that goes against the grain of the rescuer.

If there was something you could do to to rescue your wife, and have that need met, would you still be having this hesitation to rebuff the other?

Keep in mind a pwBPD is dangerous to resuers/divorced/greiving/supressed people

[Whatwasthat]

Hi again IHC - you're quite right - you could have got into a much more mixed-up situation by now if you hadn't been careful - so thank goodness - and thank your strength and common sense - that you have not.

I didn't quite understand this - what do you mean exactly?

I have been wrestling with the questions about trying to reconcile within a firmly controlled framework for the past week. 

Do explain a little more what you mean. Is this about wrestling with issues within your family -  which you've written about more elsewhere?

I do think that one of the most natural reactions to the terrible illness of a loved one is to feel horribly powerless - and it's good to acknowledge this.

But just because you can't 'control' this very sad situation your family finds itself in doesn't mean you can't do wonderful things at this time to help yourself and your family- and that in my experience goes a very long towards making us feel more reconciled to very hard realities - both now and when we look back with hindsight. You're doing these things already in fact by doing a lot of caring and practical work in your home. I think it might help you to look for more ways to express your love though. There really can't be too many at this point. And I do think your therapist might manage to come up with some ideas to help. And also some advice on how to look after yourself and give yourself a break too. You must be under severe strain. If you can find ways of reducing that then your mind may calm a little.

[InHerCrosshair]

The comment about a firmly controlled framework pertains to the BPD. Keep in mind that we work in the same office. She sits 50 feet from my desk. We see each other ALLLLL the time. Here is an example of what I deal with on a daily basis:

I sit by the doors to the elevator lobby. The walls are transparent. There are doors on the opposite wall as well. The BPD sits by the doors on the opposite wall but chooses to use the doors by my desk. She always makes a point to talk a little too loud as she approaches so I will know she is there. She and a girl friend get in the vators and leave for lunch. I wait about 10 minutes and then I go downstairs with my buddy for lunch. I'm trying to avoid her.

My buddy needs to go to the bank to transfer money so we walk a few blocks. The BPD and her friend are walking toward us from the opposite direction. As we meet, the BPD mournfully looks down and away and her friend looks at me as if to say "dude, you are breaking her heart, please come back". Once they are past my buddy says "AWKWARD!"

A few hours later, her friend walks past my desk and I catch her scoping me out. She's on a recon mission I guess. These women are almost 30 and act lie they're 13! At the end of the day my buddy and I are standing in front of the building having a smoke when the BPD walks out. She tells my buddy to have a good weekend in her meek little voice but she's looking at me with sad eyes as she walks away. I return her gaze with a smile that says... ." I know your game and find you amusing."

Over time, that stuff weighs heavy on me. And I know she knows damn well what she's doing. I was just asking all of you if there is a way I can sit her down and set some firm boundaries that would put a stop to this crap. She doesn't see the conflicting emotions I carry around. She only sees that I have become unresponsive and seemingly indifferent to her.

As for the questions about my wife and transference; hard to say. It's probably a question about how deeply involved I would have gotten in trying to help the BPD. Unless somebody can tell me how to reconnect in a firmly controlled framework, I'm going to continue doing what I'm doing. In a few weeks I'll know if my wife has any chance in hell of a reprieve from her looming demise.

If she has the operation there will be a minimum of 3 months recovery at home that will necessitate my working from home. I will be completely removed from the daily exposure to the BPD. I will be focused entirely on helping my wife. Hopefully that will extinguish the emotions I have about the BPD.

If things don't go well after the surgery, once again I will be at home and focused entirely on helping my wife.

If I learn in a few weeks that there is nothing that can be done to help my wife, then she will be propped up in bed in a stupor as we wait for the end. I will be working from home as well. When she passes I will take FMLA time to get my head together. Assuming I am successful, then when I return to work I will not give a damn about the BPD.

So I guess what I need to do here is just sit tight. Im a few weeks away from many months of working from home with something to focus on that will end this whole damn thing once and for all.

And if I wind up single again, I'll be able to avoid another BPD situation.

Thanks for helping me sort that all out!  

[maria1]

Hi there inhercrosshairs

It sounds to me that you want her to hear what you say so that her behaviour will change. I'm afraid this is unlikely in my opinion. One thing I have found I keep doing is having the same conversation with my ex. I think in the back of my mind I think he will listen. He has to a certain extent, he is obeying my boundaries at the moment. But I don't see him every day. I don't know how I would cope with that.

If you sat down and had that conversation with her what would it really achieve? She doesn't sound as if she is emotionally mature enough to listen.

I'm so sorry for what you are going through. I so understand the need for closure. I agree it can only come from the inside and not from interactions between the two of you.

[pallavirajsinghani]

... .your emotions are all over the place.  My suspicion is that although you believe that these emotions are a reaction to your co-worker, these may stem out of the process of handling your wife's condition.  Transference... .yes.

... .with your own emotions all over the place, how can you even begin to define the "firm framework" within which communication can take place with your co-worker.

... .please do consider grief counseling.  I suspect that when you make your co-worker a target of your emotions, you can maintain a semblance of normalcy and well controlled behavior at work.  Without this pre-occupation, I suspect that you will fall apart.  Perhaps it is time to fall apart and grieve.  Just leave your co-worker out of the equation.

... .on a more practical note... .the careful self-protection that you have build for yourself at work will be shattered if you reinstate "sitting down".  "Mentoring" at work has a different boundary.  I suspect that you had crossed the work place definition of mentoring in the first place... .and have been picking up the pieces both at work and with your own emotions since.

... .God bless.

[InHerCrosshair]

The mentoring boundaries began to dissolve when I allowed myself to become a source of advice regarding her life outside of work. I have a daughter about the same age as the BPD, who has some very serious problems of her own. I recognized and admitted at the time that I was projecting my daughter onto the BPD. I saw myself as the BPD's surrogate father. That notion was reinforced by her as well. I thought I was giving her fatherly advice.

I had no idea at the early stages that the BPD was lying to me about so many things. She was seducing me and I was oblivious to it. Once I began to notice her contradictions and her more overt efforts to get me into bed I stepped back and began to re-examine our previous interactions. Not long after I began the process, she became the hater. She was out of patience and began shifting tactics to get what she wanted.

After I learned how sick my wife is I found myself wondering at times about my life after she's gone. I began to consider starting over with the BPD. After a couple of weeks her behavior became so bizarre that I abandoned those notions and started looking into what in the hell was wrong with her. About 2 weeks into that I discovered she was BPD.

Part of my pre-occupation has to do with wrapping my head around my own weakness and poor decision making. This has all been so unlike anything I have ever done or experienced that it is really messing with me. Maybe I want to somehow gain control of the situation so I would feel better about myself. I sort of feel like a complete fool.

The grieving process happens in fits and starts. I went through a couple of really bad months, which was the same time the BPD became a hater. I see now that she was competing for my affections and losing badly. It was during those months that I began therapy.

I think you're right about my preoccupation being the thing that helps me keep it together right now. If things go bad for my wife in the next few weeks, I will contact my T again. I will also be working from home and will have zero contact with the BPD. At that point my preoccupation will end and I can grieve openly.

Thanks again

[pallavirajsinghani]

Part of my pre-occupation has to do with wrapping my head around my own weakness and poor decision making. This has all been so unlike anything I have ever done or experienced that it is really messing with me. Maybe I want to somehow gain control of the situation so I would feel better about myself. I sort of feel like a complete fool.

In all fairness... .you had never experienced something like this before.  So, how can you expect yourself to have handled it any differently.  If you are called tomorrow to conduct a symphony, despite your intelligence and energy and creativity and driving force and will power... .would you be able to do it successfully?

Some things can only be understood and learnt via experience.

You should feel like a complete fool if you get sucked into participating in a mentally disordered individual's world again.  This time, you should work on charting it all to inexperience.

Our family gave an entire fortune away dancing to the tune of one disordered girl (DBPDSIL).  We did it in ignorance and fear.  I doubt that we will ever repeat this when we encounter disordered mandates and expectations again.

If you open up the Pandora's Box after having quite successfully put all the monsters back in, then your conduct should perhaps deserve more intense scrutiny.  At this time, I think that you should begin exercising self-forgiveness. 

[waverider]

No point sitting down and laying out conditions.

A pwBPD on the chase has the mindset of a terrorist. They have one goal by any means, any collateral damage is justifiable in pursuit of their personal goals.

You cant negotiate with terrorists.

Even if you were nieve enough to give in, there is a fair chance she would move on after creating chaos. The drug is the chase not the having.

[InHerCrosshair]

Ahhhhh,

So I'm giving her what she wants by pushing away but remaining within her reach? She can now chase me all over again? If so, is there a way I can use that knowledge to make her run away and leave me alone?

[waverider]

Its the interaction that is feeding her, any interaction will do, even if not verbal, a look, a gesture anything. If she creates a ripple and that ripple cause you to rock in its wake, that works. So she chucks another rock, creates another ripple. The appetitte for reaction is insatiable.

Its the same fascination a child has throwing crumbs to the ducks. They will do it until either there are no crumbs left, the ducks stop reacting, or the childs attention is distracted somewhere else, and quickly forgets about the ducks.

Thats her part in this. 

But the real issue you have to come to terms with is what is subconsciously keeping you stuck in this? How would you react if it was a gay male colleague who was paying you unwanted attention, and why would your handling of this be different, if your level of interest was supposedly the same?

[InHerCrosshair]

Good to know. So she is controllable by means of my gestures facial expressions etc... .That gives me a sense of control over the situation, which is exactly what I wanted.

Thanks!

[waverider]

Good to know. So she is controllable by means of my gestures facial expressions etc... .That gives me a sense of control over the situation, which is exactly what I wanted.

Thanks!

No she is not controllable

You can only control how she affects you.

Deal with how she affects you on the subconcious level, she will loose interest as a consequence, and even if it takes a while if she is not triggering your subconscious reactions, it will be no more than a background nuisance.

Even putting effort into "blanking" someone is seen as a response. That is they are treated differently than everyone else. A pwBPD can put any interpretation on anything, anyway they choose.

Any indifference has to be real and come from within, not just acted out. Do not under estimate how acute their emotional radar is, even if it misreads the results. Often its seems they can sense your emotions before you are aware of them yourself

[InHerCrosshair]

Ok here is how that reads to me. She has super sensitive radar that she completely misreads. That tells me that no matter how I act or don't act, and regardless of the truth behind my actions, she will see them to mean what ever in the hell she damn well pleases.

If so, then it really makes no difference what I do or don't do. The only way to kill the monster is for me to have no physical presence in her world. I will soon be working remotely for a minimum of 3 months. She will not see me or hear my voice or receive any form of communication from me during that time. If she attempts contact I will not respond.

You think 3 months will be enough time?

Between now and the time I begin working from home, I can pretty much do what ever I want and she is gonna imagine it means pretty much anything she wants. So I'll just do my thang and watch with amusement as she tries to figure it all out.

[waverider]

pretty much

get on with your life, leave her to hers, its your choice whether you let it bother you or not

3 months should be enough to get your head out of the surreal space it is in at the moment

[InHerCrosshair]

Well at last I got the feedback I needed most of all. When I first discovered she was BPD and that I was being manipulated, all the advice I was getting scared the crap outta me. I thought I was in real danger from her and that I had to do certain things in certain ways in order to protect myself and not trigger any suicidal actions (or worse) from her.

Then I went down the whole path of what's wrong with me... .because an adviser told me to. So I got all wrapped in the fear that if I lose my wife I would be easy prey for a BPD and I wanted to understand everything so I would be safe from that.

Then I was all about looking for ways to try and have a more normal work environment, and finally after 3 months, I find out that this was mostly whoie.

Now I can go back to being myself and no longer have to worry about miss crazy pants.

I think that wraps it up for me. I'll check back one last time for any feedback to this post. Unless I see something that changes my mind, that will be my last visit here.

Thanks!

[baconninja]

IMO, you need to stop caring about her, period. Stop worrying about hurting her feelings. Your concern is her fuel.

This woman is deliberately trying to destroy your family.

Ask yourself, what kind of person would do this to someone whose spouse is gravely ill?

Even if you did start over with her, at **your** weakest hour, she will betray you in similar fashion.

I am not a mental health professional, but I did marry a BPD, and I have been betrayed repeatedly in my weakest moments (well, not only then, but those hurt the worst). Being in the hospital alone while your spouse doesnt give a crap because they are cheating on you is no fun

If you are searching for an emotion, might I suggest anger? Anger at the childish games and drama at work, at a time when you have enough problems already? Anger for the total disregard of your spouse? Anger at the person who would ruin your life and cause you years of pain all as a repayment for your initial kindness?

Regards,

BN

[InHerCrosshair]

I appreciate your concern and I am sorry about your experience. I work with this girl. I'm not saying that I am going to turn a blind eye to her wackiness and wicked motives. I'm saying that I am going to interact with her the same way I would with any other coworker within the confines of the day to day business.

A big scary monster isn't going to pop out of her head and eat me alive because of what I do or don't say.

I totally get where people who are actually in a marriage or committed romantic relationship are coming from. I am not in either of those situations.

I know what Im dealing with. I didn't go for the bait before and I'm not going to go for it in the future. She isn't going to cast a spell on me and make drop my pants and cheat on my wife. That pretty much makes her nothing more than a pathetic loser with no future and no power over me.

So yes I will be polite and professional and look her in the eye with confidence. I'll speak to her and tell her to have a nice day and wish her luck on business deals. If she wants to choose invitations for a wedding that will never happen or think of me while she's getting down with every middle age loser in Chicago... .let her.

Thanks again and good luck to you as you deal with your BPD. 

[InHerCrosshair]

Well I did what I said I was going to do and I got pretty much what I expected. At first she didn't know what to do when I started speaking to her again. She was clearly thrown for a loop and called in sick the next day. She missed the following day as well. When she came back on Monday it was more fun and games with stare downs and excuses to let her hair down and walk past my desk multiple times a day.

She stares at me from the elevators, she stares at me as she's walking in and out of the building. She goes out of her way to make sure I see her with other guys (who have no idea what she is up to)she even grabbed a guy Friday evening and invited him out for a drink as she watched me... .she's always looking at me for my reaction. My work buddy gets a kick out of my play by play predictions of what she's about to do in those situations.

She put herself in a box. She refuses to initiate a conversation and instead tries to provoke me into seeking her forgiveness. She will continue to try to provoke me into doing that while I watch in silent amusement. I have the power... .and I always did.

It's sort of like I'm teasing a dog with a pork chop, and I'm okay with that. This dog might try to bite, but she ain't got no teeth because I covered my butt with the folks in HR and the whole office has had all this time to watch her wackiness. She will most likely spin out of control and destroy her career... .again, and I can wave at her as she carries her cardboard box out of the building for the last time.

For those of you who are wrestling with this monster... .think about all I have said. Don't run and hide, exercise your power.

[Want2know]

Good to know. So she is controllable by means of my gestures facial expressions etc... .  That gives me a sense of control over the situation, which is exactly what I wanted.

Just to throw out something to think about... .  

As a senior in the company and 20+ years older, the court and/or the company will likely view you as having taken advantage of this girl.  I know this is hard to hear.  Buts its the standard in workplace law and HR is all about keeping the company out of legal trouble.

Given the above, even if you have placated the HR department for now, it's probably not because they see her as wacky... .  it's because this hasn't yet risen to the point that you are expendable.  They can't fire her.  That opens all kinds of potential exposure.

This is a dynamic evaluation as you point out, so any incident, complaint, or re-evaluation could arrive at a different outcome for you.

It's sort of like I'm teasing a dog with a pork chop, and I'm okay with that. This dog might try to bite, but she ain't got no teeth because I covered my butt with the folks in HR and the whole office has had all this time to watch her wackiness. She will most likely spin out of control and destroy her career... .  again, and I can wave at her as she carries her cardboard box out of the building for the last time.

One way I might look at this is that I escaped the hatchet (possibly narrowly) in the first round but that any continued visibility of this could bring the hatchet down.  

For example, if she goes to HR after a poor performance review and says her poor performance is related to her relationship with you, or if she were to say that you came on to her, or engaged her in discussion that were clearly personal and not normal professional side-banter... .  

As such, my advice would be to stop trying to "win" this battle of wits - which is potentially escalating this situation - and do whatever you can to de-escalate the situation.  The three month offsite assignment is good. I'm sure management is relieved to have it coming up.

Have you talked to an employment law attorney?

[elemental]

Exercise your power to ignore her and focus on your own life which is in crisis. I saw your other posting today. You said this girl is behaving herself.

Leave her alone to get on with things. Probably she found a boyfriend or something interesting to distract her.

Her having done so is a fantastic opportunity for you to go home and actively comfort and love your wife. She needs it. She deserves it.

Peace.

[InHerCrosshair]

Im not worried about work. She tried this with our manager. My actions are in keeping with the instructions I got from HR. She hasn't lost interest, but she as learned that certain behaviors come with unwanted consequences, so she has toned it down.

The wife had thee Hail Mary surgery and is recovering nicely. I won't be working from home after all. In fact, my desk is being moved CLOSER to the waif! So it was necessary to get her to change the way she acts around me.

Mission accomplished.

[elemental]

Ok I didn't see this prior to asking on the other thread. Awesome your wife is better.

[waverider]

Mission accomplished will be when she loses interest. If she is pwBPD then if she is not getting what she wants by normal means then it is not uncommon for something extreme to happen as consequences for a pwBPD can become irrelevant when they get desperate.

BPD by nature is lack of stability and consistency. There is often little cause and effect logic, the need overrides consequencies

Are you sure she is BPD rather than just Obsessive?

[InHerCrosshair]

Positive, beyond a shadow of a doubt. I also know from things she told me during the early phases that she sees me as a challenge. She falls in love with the men who resist and keeps the men who "play" on a string and uses them as objects.