a little not-apology, or, BPD self-awareness

[patientandclear]

Wanted to share this.  It's illuminated a lot for me somehow.

As many of you know, I've been trying to create and maintain a fairly intimate friendship with my uBPDexbf.  I still love him -- god help me.  I'd like to change that, as we are not going anywhere on that front (I accept that he has untreated BPD and is going to be a wretched partner while that is the case.  He inevitably pushes me away, hard, when we get too close.  So -- no dice on the romantic future!)

I've posted a few times recently about him suddenly disappearing for about two weeks at a time, between episodes of context texting, warm emailing & occasional meetings in person.  (When I say he disappears, he will still respond if I send a text, but the responses are cursory and intended to bring the exchange to a close--he clearly doesn't wish to be in communication.  And since I generally let him initiate because it seems he gets to feeling smothered otherwise, if he's not initiating, we are pretty much silent.)

He'd been pretty silent for a couple of weeks, and I posted about it.  This weekend, on a whim, I sent a casual, jaunty email that didn't reference any of the drama of a prior exchange about the futility of love, etc., that seemed to prompt the end of our last period of contact.  I started it with a little rhyme involving the word "hummingbird," which matters to his response.

He answered yesterday saying (paraphrasing):

"You scared me there! I saw the word 'hummingbird' in the little bit of text that was visible in the subject line, and I immediately thought 'oh, she thinks I'm like a hummingbird because I zoom in, all intense and urgent, stay for a bit, then zoom away.  Is she right?  Maybe.' ... .So then as I was about to open your message, I was starting to compose my response, which would have said I was really busy with [XY & Z], and anyway, I was going to say it seemed like you have also been busy, so it's been kind of a two way street if true.  But then I opened your message, and find that all is well!"   [i.e., I didn't have any critique of his disappearance].  "So now I'm happy, though still a bit traumatized, or somewhere between alert and traumatized."

[end of my paraphrase of his email.]

So ... .this shows me a lot.  It shows (i) he is aware of his push-pull behavior, including how strong the pull part is ("all intense and urgent" (ii) he is aware that his push-pull behavior may bother me; (iii) he has a rationalization for his behavior ("I was busy, and plus, you probably were also busy" that is not actually quite true in his own mind ("is she right? maybe" but that he was fully prepared to deploy if I HAD criticized him; (iv) he was delighted to find I had not criticized him, when I could have; (v) since I didn't criticize him, he was willing to share this quasi-self-analysis with me; but (vi) there is not a word about how he is actually going to change this admittedly probably hurtful behavior.

Apart from the light I thought this little bit of self-analysis might shed, it prompted some further musings for me.

Somehow this has really accentuated my question (on my last thread about not knowing which way to go, whether this dynamic is abusive or just what healthy looks like in untreated BPD land): is it OK to go along with this?  "Oh, there you are again, good to see you!," knowing that it is the best he can do unless he deals with his intimacy fears? Or am I actually becoming a crutch preventing him from dealing with the losses that come from this dysfunction, surfing it like I am, always here when he pops up again, never criticizing or objecting, or trying to change him (I've given up on that officially!)?

It does bother me that he goes away.  And from this unsolicited little offering, I can see that he knows or suspects that it bothers me, that it is perhaps not OK.  But I know that if I start talking about that, he will get super defensive, withdrawn and shut down.  It will not help & it will not change anything.  My choices are to really wind down my involvement with him, or keep going like this, I guess, just kind of shunting aside the topic of his lack of accountability to me in the whole dynamic.

Is it, um, a bad thing to do to just accept such things (the emotionally abusive aspect of periodically distancing someone you alternately pull close)?  Inherently bad for me?  Bad for him?  Is it better to let him burn our bridge along with all the others?  Is that the only way he might at some point delve into this?  (He's 50.  At least superficially (who knows what goes on in the deep recesses of his mind), he's pretty committed to the idea that he doesn't have any problems with relationships, just hasn't found the right one yet, or maybe he's done with them, or needs to work on himself first.  He does not seem to be in therapy or interested.  So odds don't seem great that, even if he loses me entirely, he will take any big steps toward sorting this out.)

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[united for now]

I have 4 brothers. Some I speak to monthly, some only once every few years. Not because we don't love each other. We're just not that close of a family. I accept that. It doesn't change my love for them or theirs for me. It's just how we operate.

If you are OK with him coming and going  - really deep down OK with it - then everything should be cool with no worries. You aren't OK with it though, or else you wouldn't be struggling so much on this issue. You are wanting more than he is capable of giving you. And that is OK too. It just creates a very painful reality gap for you - between what you want and what you can get. The more you struggle against this, the more pain you create - for yourself and for him.

He may fully well recognize his own fears and how he pushes/pulls at others. That doesn't mean he has the self control to prevent them from overwhelming him.

Sometimes love means recognizing the need to accept them as they are. Flaws and warts and all. Otherwise you "are" creating pain for both of you, in that you struggle with the reality gap and he knows he is hurting you and can't stop himself. If you really truly accept him as he is, then he can truly let go of his worry about how his behavior hurts you, cause you would be accepting him completely and fully as he is.  This would give him the freedom to come and go in your life as he needs to, with no worries just complete acceptance. And yeah. I think all of us need a solid base to have with someone. That sort of unconditional love and acceptance that comes from no judgments and no expectations beyond what they can offer.

Again, this may be outside your comfort level - which is fine. Just be honest with him about it. Don't try to hide it... .

[patientandclear]

That's exactly where I've arrived at, UFN.  I responded to him tonight that he can come & go as he likes, and all is well.  Getting to that place has been a process for me -- making sure that in so doing, I was doing something good, not rationalizing abuse.  I've done a lot of that in my life, and especially with this man who made promises to me he was in no position to deliver on, I've had to really be cautious in extending that kind of acceptance.  I don't believe in unconditional love any more, and I need not to be saying "hey, treat me however you like and I'll stay no matter what."

Discerning that this is not that -- that this person is, in his own way, being brave and trying to reach me too, when it is scary for him also and he feels he risks rejection each time -- has just taken me some time, and testing.  I worked this through with my therapist today, and I feel good about the decision to say "ok, I see this worries you -- I am ok with you coming & going, you don't have to feel pressure about that."

For me -- and no judgment for those who can handle this differently -- that would not be possible if we were romantic partners.  I can do this as his friend though, I think.  I appreciate him showing me, albeit in this oblique way, what goes on for him, and what he needs.  Having drawn these limits -- that we will only be friends -- I think I can do this.

[united for now]

Exactly.

We have different expectations for friends than lovers. Family and strangers. The level of acceptance varies dramatically. I would never tolerate withdrawal from my boyfriend. That is a condition of being together. Friends come and go as our lives move us though.

I'm glad you worked this out 

[suz124w]

Patient and clear,

I'm sorry but I really feel you are deluding yourself in this scenario.

You should be protecting yourself more as what you are embarked on involves the law of diminishing returns and I think it is clear from what you write that in an ideal world you would like to be in a romantic relationship with an improved/fixed him rather than just a friendship.  He is the one calling the shots here and you are accommodating him.

In my view, you are on the road to nowhere but more hurt and disappointment if you continue in this vein.  If I were you I would stop all the caretaking, really make a concerted effort to let go of what is ultimately a damaging situation and free yourself up for a relationship with a more healthy dynamic in the future, one that will be truly reciprocal.  You seem like such a lovely, intelligent person with a lot to offer.  I would hate to see all that good stuff go to waste!

Best wishes.

[laelle]

suz124w, your advice would be perfect for the leaving board.  This is the staying board where we want to be in the relationship and want to find better ways to communicate with those that we love who are mentally ill.  I agree that letting go and accepting the other person as is is crucial.

I can only speak for myself in saying that when I am in a relationship and dont have to hide my illness anymore I feel good.  Where I can take off the mask and be me flaws and all, where I am accepted just as I am, and what I am is good enough.  I no longer have alot of the intimacy issues.  I know that person is going to support me regardless of my "bad moments"  As a result, the bad moments are fewer and I learn to trust. I no longer fear abandonment to a painful degree.

I have never been in a relationship where someone close to me takes off for weeks at a time, but I am not close to my family and I go months without talking to them.  It doesnt lesson my love for them, its just the way we are.

[Validation78]

Hi P&C!

It's great that you have reached a level of acceptance. I know that when I did, I felt a huge burden lifted! It doesn't make everything all roses, yet it does take the edge off. Whenever I find myself going into victim mode, I know it's time to bone up on Radical Acceptance. We need tools to get us to a peaceful place in order to continue on our path to good health!

Thanks Laelle for the reminder that we are here on the staying board to encourage each other to stay, make changes in our relationships in order to improve them. It's not for everyone. It's a very personal decision, and different for everyone. Change is possible, and The Lessons here show us how what we do can impact changes in a relationship with a pwBPD!

Best Wishes,

Val78

[patientandclear]

I really appreciate each of those comments.  Suz, you're right to a point.  I DID want more -- a conventional, easy relationship with this man, with sex, and living together, and movies every Friday, and him being the step-parent to my daughter.  I really love him.  We have a special thing together.  Just before he totally fell apart in the relationship, he showed me what it would be like to be really happy with another person.

The problem is, he can't do that thing that I want.  I've spent a lot of time figuring out why.  There were theories that he was a jerk, a psychopath, etc.  I've come to really understand that those are not the reasons.  He is deeply injured.  He is also trying.  In his own way he has made as much of an effort here as I have.  He has pushed out of his own comfort zone to try to deal with me with integrity.

I can't have what I really want.  But that doesn't mean I cannot learn and change and accept what is true and decide what I want to do about it.  For me -- and others resolve this differently on this board, I respect that -- that means if I have a romantic partner, it most likely won't be him.  I do want that.  I've explored seeing other people & will continue to do that.  If I met a good match I would pursue that notwithstanding this intimate friendship with my BPDex.

But he also matters to me very much.  I've had to do a lot of learning and growth to figure out how to "be" with him in a way that works for us both.  I cannot need him to stay in place.  I also cannot fix or heal him.  I can care for him as he pushes himself down his own road, and that's what (at least it seems now) I want to do.  We seem to be advancing in our understanding of what we are doing, and a lot of the credit for that goes to him.

Laelle, Val & UFN, thanks so much for helping me to understand how this might work.  Laelle especially, thanks for saying that ironically, it is when one is truly understood and accepted, that one can make the most progress on undoing the dysfunctions that need to be understood.   

[NewStart]

P&C you wrote... .

I really appreciate each of those comments.  Suz, you're right to a point.  I DID want more -- a conventional, easy relationship with this man, with sex, and living together, and movies every Friday, and him being the step-parent to my daughter.  I really love him.  We have a special thing together.  Just before he totally fell apart in the relationship, he showed me what it would be like to be really happy with another person.

... .and that really struck home with me.  Yes we go in thinking 'I can do this, I want to be friends... .' but then maybe the reality of all that was and could have been become to much. 

I commend you for your strength if you are able to balance this as I have learned that for me this is a sisyphean task I can't complete... .for me there's just to much history, energy and emotion still there.

Thanks for sharing.

NS

PS-I don't know how to put in those cool quote blocks 

[Cardinals in Flight]

P&C, I've been following your progress with XBPDb/f (now intimate friend) very closely, as I too have been on the journey to the same type of friendship with my XBPDg/f.  It is a journey of self-discovery as well as the navigation and acceptance of the disease.

I came here just about a year ago, all tied up in knots and just learning about BPD.  If you'd asked me a year ago if I would be friends with this person, I'd probably burst into tears as I was (and am still to a degree) so in love with, and love deeply this very troubled, and yes injured woman.

I've asked myself several times if I'm deluding myself with the efforts of friendship, and am sometimes unclear within myself.  The actual removing of the label of "relationship" has been pivotal to our success.  We are both significant others, neither one moving on romantically.  My point is, and I think I can get there, LOL, is I'm not sure I can totally remove from myself the old romantic feelings, and I'm not sure she has either, it's very hard to tell.  What has changed though, is how we deal with one another. I can see how hard she works at "gathering herself" when something is difficult, when before there would have been a huge tantrum. 

There are many similarities and I applaud your efforts and successes, please keep writing, it's encouraging to know others can proceed and still keep our loved ones with BPD in our lives.

[NewStart]

FYI P&C your mailbox is full 

[patientandclear]

Cardinals in Flight, thanks so much for sharing that.  It is really good to have company & to compare notes.  Please keep writing about it.  It is hard to find the way forward with integrity and compassion for ourselves, for the person we love, that is realistic and achievable, that is not a co-dependent mess/struggle.  I feel more hopeful than I have in the longest time right now, and interestingly, it is in part due to his efforts.  He has challenges in relationships but he is taking this one very seriously, and I really, really appreciate that.  Somehow it seems that after the dust and false starts and futile expectations all clear away, we still have something, and that is really gratifying.

NewStart, I fixed the inbox!  PM away.  And you do the cool block quotes with the "quote" link on the upper right of someone's message.  You keep the parts in the square brackets & delete what you don't want between the brackets.

[laelle]

All we can do is accept them and love them for who they are.  We actually are having a great opportunity to experience love and care in a way that most people will never experience.  I have grown alot in the past weeks while learning all the lessons.  Its actually helping to heal me of issues I had long before I met my BF.  I am blessed to have him in my life even if he is a big pain in the ass sometimes.   

[Cardinals in Flight]

All we can do is accept them and love them for who they are.  We actually are having a great opportunity to experience love and care in a way that most people will never experience.  I have grown alot in the past weeks while learning all the lessons.  Its actually helping to heal me of issues I had long before I met my BF.  I am blessed to have him in my life even if he is a big pain in the ass sometimes.  

EXACTLY!     Everyone is deserving of love and compassion, this thought alone has kept me going when it would have been so easy to just quit.  I know that each relationship is different, has it's own set of unique struggles.  I'm thankful that somewhere along the way, my own experiences allowed for me to open my heart a little more instead of taking the easy (for me personally) way out.

[suz124w]

Patientandclear,

I have to apologise as I didn't realise I was on the staying board!

I am all for compassion and do applaud it but I think we have to be very very clear what we are really looking for in these relationships.  In my opinion it is SO difficult to go from having a romantic relationship to just being friends and sometimes it isn't possible.

I wish you luck though with your quest.

Best wishes

[patientandclear]

It definitely IS difficult!  Unfortunately everything about loving someone with BPD is difficult.  Acceptance of the parts we cannot change is the only thing that can make it somewhat easier.

I wish we were able to have the kind of relationship he offered me when we first got together.  I wanted it, I want it, and in so many ways we would be great partners.  We can't though.  He can't.  And that limits my choices.  I spent 10 months in NC and that didn't make things better for me.  Everything seemed to have ended "wrong."  We cared about each other and underneath the whole frustrated romance dynamic, that was and is still there.

I can choose between being connected and accepting the reality that he can't be my partner in the way I want a partner; or being out of contact and accepting that same reality.  For me, the former is a choice that makes me feel more whole and integrated and results in the least loss.

It is super hard because as Phoebe123 said on my other recent thread, this is no normal friendship with an ex.  It is more intense.  Then it is more separate.  I have to not over-read the intensity and I also have to not over-read the separation.  Both require skills and a lens I am still developing.

So I am by no means understating the challenge.  It's just that losing this person completely in the name of a stark clarity is a bigger challenge for me emotionally, and not one I find gratifying in the end.  My ex ended his recent email saying "here's to ambiguity and fluidity!" and for the first time, I feel like saying "amen," rather than finding that sad, or off-putting.

[suz124w]

Patientandclear,

I understand what you are saying completely.  You are entitled to your choice of what you feel is best for you.  I suppose I just could not envisage compromising myself so much and I know that if I were in your shoes I would be tortured by both the intensity and the separations and would be kidding myself if I said I wouldn't be.  But that is me... .

[maria1]

Hi P & C

It sounds like you are taking on the role of a mother and that is admirable if you can do it. I know that you will use the tools and do everything you can to make this work for him.

That I think is the 'easy' part for you/ caring for others is second nature to you!

I'd like to keep on seeing more threads from you where you talk about YOU. Because you need to be ok. That's what the staying board is for too.

Just one thing to maybe practice in your head which may help you guard against any future hurt in these circumstances-

What will happen when you do meet someone you want to have a relationship with? How will that work with your ex?

And what will happen when you find out your ex is romantically involved with somebody else?

How will those things effect YOU?

What I had to do was properly delve into the detail of those scenarios in my head. I knew I would find it too difficult to stand by whilst he goes through a wedding and tells me or doesn't tell me intimate stuff about his wife. Stuff that he shares with me because I don't judge him, because I accept him coming and going, accept the dark side of his personality. If you can prepare for that scenario then you will be less likely to suffer in my opinion.

People with BPD don't tend to stay alone romantically. My ex can't. He knows that he should. He says that he will and its just him and his son now. He means it but it isn't true.

Also think about how BPD ex will fit onto your life when a relationship becomes significant. How will your ex feel when your new partner becomes significant to your daughter?

What would happen when ex with BPD wants to see you but your time is committed to your new partner?

I know these are difficult questions because I asked them of myself. I asked my ex if he would still want to be friends if i was with someone and he said he couldn't be my friend if I was with someone else. He also couldn't stop being obsessive about whether I was.

Just before my ex decided we couldn't be friends he asked if I could spend 1 evening a week watching our favourite box set together and having a nice meal. I would have loved to. But I couldn't. I suddenly knew that a time would come when one of us would cancel in order to see a boyfriend/ girlfriend. I couldn't cope with him doing that to me and I couldn't cope with doing it to him. I didn't respond to the question. He knew what the answer meant.

[suz124w]

Maria,

I woke up this morning thinking that I had been a bit uncharitable in my comments before especially in the light of patientandclear's ex making efforts to have insight into his emotional states and their effects on himself and her.

However, the nagging question in my head is 'What happens when one or other of them gets someone else?... .Won't this alter the dynamic?"

I came to the conclusion that if a person was holding onto some romantic hope of making a breakthrough of some kind and this happened, then this could be pretty devastating psychologically.

Like you, I thought I could maybe be friends with my ex after the split as I could see the behaviours but I realised pretty quickly that there was still an attraction, a shared past and feelings there on my side, feelings that were already being trampled on as my ex seemed either mystified or oblivious to.  That was pretty damaging in itself, so I decided to close the chapter.  I could see that he could easily 'move on' (how I hate that expression now!) and that there really wasn't much depth or constancy there.  I found it heartbreaking.

The last time I spoke to him was about 6 months ago, he came to my home in my absence 3 months ago with a small gift for me but I have not contacted him.  I just couldn't stand the pain and I don't think it's my 'job' to care about his feelings any more.  I did it for a number of years but when the chips were down, he didn't much care about mine.  That is not the basis of a healthy relationship, be it as a friend or a romantic partner.

[maria1]

Suz124w- hi there! Good to see you.

I suppose the thing we need to keep uppermost is that we are all unique and our exes are all unique. Thinking about my own situation in relation to P & Cs post I do think its important to think what may lie ahead. It's very interesting that you went through the same thoughts about how you would deal with him if he was in another relationship.

P & C my ex constantly triangulated/ triangulates me with women. I used to find it flattering but now I just see it as symptomatic of him not having any awareness of what he is doing. Or maybe he is absolutely aware- either way it is a form of control. He tells me his women friends 'hate' me because he is in love with me. But he also likes to tell me about new women he has met- he always wants to show me pictures which I refuse. He just loves to get a reaction from me, even if its me trying not to react. And he probably uses me to get a reaction from them.

What does he say to them about me?  He told me he told one friend i was worth a thousand of her. So i am also part of his abuse of his 'friends'. I dont believe anything he says really. I'm just saying these things because it may well be that your ex tells you the truth about his relationships. But we do know that people with BPD traits seem to find the truth hard to face.

So be prepared to be surprised again as I know you have said you were in the past. If you stay be prepared and ready so that you are not hurt- I do hope my posts are still within the spirit of staying because I am trying to think of how you can stay in the best and most protected way for you. X

[suz124w]

Maria,

You are right, we are all unique and our exes are all different so we have to be careful about over-generalizing!  However, the triangulation thing you speak of echoes my own experience completely!  I would be told what he told so and so about what I said and then what so and so had said about what he told her, so it was clearly an ongoing behaviour trait.  Of course, we all do this to some extent reporting what people have said to us, but this was very pointed and yes, with hindsight ( a wonderful thing!), it does smack of control.  At the time I thought it was curious/amusing but of course the subliminal messages did sneak in and affect my feelings and behaviour.  Sad really.

P & C, maybe I was over-identifiying and I do wish you well in whatever course of action you decide on.  Only you can decide what's best in your situation but, as Maria says, take care.

[patientandclear]

Good questions, Maria1 (& Suz).  I think integrating this friendship into a future where one or both of us are involved with someone else, may be more feasible than for you and your ex, Maria, because my ex wBPD has a really hard time being with me physically.  Each time we get together, it's fantastic -- and it seems to prompt a huge push away from him.  Silence or near silence, followed by weeks of ramping up email and texting, followed by getting together proposed by him, followed by some affectionate follow-up texting, and then he completely goes away again.

If I were seeing someone (which I have been, though it's been messy & I'm discontinuing that, as discussed on the new relationships board recently), it would be relatively easy for him to not know.  In these three months we've been back in touch, he has never asked if I'm with or have been with anyone since him, & I've never asked him.  I recently asked that we avoid the whole subject of our views about and experiences of love, because that is super painful for me to discuss with him.  I think this is a piece we will basically agree to segregate away from our friendship, at least for a long time, till feelings are less intense for either of us.

He seems adamant right now about not seeing anyone.  First time in his life.  He makes comment after comment about how everyone's first responsibility is to create their "self" and that he gets lost in relationships and cannot find his "self."  That one has to attend to one's own growth before "other endeavors" are possible.  For someone who is as far as I can tell untreated, and is groping for a way forward in his life under his own power, these are pretty remarkable insights.  They don't mean he will ever be able to be in a successful relationship of course.  Just that he seems to have a sense he needs to stay away from one now.

I am not waiting for him in any way.  I was last year (before I knew about BPD), and then he did get involved with someone.  I am both more skeptical that he can hold the course & stay out of relationships than I was then; and more sure that whatever healing path he may be on, if he is, it will be so long that I cannot possibly wait.  If I'm with someone else, I can make room for my BPDex.  If he is, and I learn of it, I'm sure it will hurt, and raise all kinds of "why not me?" questions.  I do think I know the answers to those questions though at this point.  I also can't imagine him sustaining a relationship with anyone.  I'm patient as hell and have now understood his dynamic much more than I used to, and can work with his rhythms, and it's still hard for me to hang in.

Yesterday was an example of all that is good and bad in this situation.  On the one hand, he didn't even answer my "don't worry, you can come & go" email.  Which surprised me, so yes, I still have the capacity to be hurt by things he does even though I say I accept that I cannot expect anything in particular.  On the other, I got difficult news about my work yesterday & told him by text, and he spent the evening texting with me about it, asking how I felt, telling me I'll be OK, and advising.  Like other pwBPD he can be very self-focused, so this was one of those things I don't take for granted.

I still have sadness around our inability to be together as genuine partners, and I definitely still have acceptance work to do about that.  I find myself trying to appeal to him or hit just the right pattern of interaction that will magically change all that, make him want me in that way again, make him be able to deal with me in that way again.  Those feelings are really unhelpful!  I need to get past them if this is going to ever feel truly peaceful to me.  Eventually, me seeing someone else will be a part of that resolution I think.

[maria1]

P & C

It sounds to me as if you are continuing to detach romantically and that can only be positive as you are lear you cannot be romantically involved. Being aware of your emotions and digging deep into them is so valuable and I do believe that it can be a helpful route staying in contact with the person from whom we are trying to detach romantically. Because we have to examine our emotions in the raw, NC doesn't allow that for all of us. I do get where you are with this.

I still don't know how I might respond if my pwBPD comes knocking again. I just know that our feelings for each other don't leave room for new relationships. I would be pleased to be at his wedding if he was healed I think, otherwise I would feel part of some deviousness that I just couldn't stomach.

Goodness me it really is a strange world this one of BPD! I suddenly felt like Alice in Wonderland, trying desperately to make sense of the utterly irrational.

Good for you P & C and my hat off to you. x

[Cardinals in Flight]

P&C said

"I still have sadness around our inability to be together as genuine partners, and I definitely still have acceptance work to do about that."

I really relate to this, and find myself lingering here in my thoughts.  We were/are SO good together! Travel well, have differing thoughts that allow us to really talk and give one another different points of view.  She is very mechanical, I am not.  I'm creative and she holds the mind of an engineer, and so on and so forth. The kind of polar opposites that really do attract.  On more than one occasion she has said "she is defective" and that just breaks my heart.

I'd move heaven and earth to help her see that she is so much more than she believes herself to be.  I know this is the illness talking, I can't fix her, but I can support her.  I'm continually open to different schools of thoughts/ideas, it's what keeps me reading here.

[patientandclear]

Reporting back in with just a tiny addition to this story.  I said yesterday he hadn't answered my email telling him I accept the rhythm of our communication and am thankful for what we are doing, as it is, and as he is.  That's a little jarring given that I had texted telling him there was an email (he has incredible trauma deprivation ... .has a really hard time allowing himself luxuries, which for him include internet access at home; so he only gets to email every few days sometimes, and when I send something I really need him to see, I sometimes text so it doesn't get lost, which has been a nightmare in our already challenged communication dynamic sometimes -- we each think the other is not replying, but in truth he has just not see my email or forgotten to send one he drafted).

But anyway, today, there was the answer.  Full of thoughtful weighing of other things I'd written about, but no explicit comment about my discussion of his analysis of his comings and goings.  Except at the very end, where he signed himself "Hummingbird."

Just for tonight -- and yes I still feel pangs of wishing for what cannot be -- but just for tonight, I feel pretty content with this small sweet thing we are trying to do.

[laelle]

Beautiful   

[Cardinals in Flight]

That made me tear up P&C, so sweet. 

I feel those pangs for you.

[patientandclear]

   Laelle & Cardinals in Flight.  I've really appreciated both of your comments.  Laelle, what you said about how it feels really good to be understood & accepted as you are, had a huge impact on the paradigm shift I've just made (choosing not to view my ex's occasional withdrawals as abusive, but as him; choosing to accept him, choosing to tell him I am accepting him).  I hope you are feeling better today BTW ... .

And Cardinals in Flight, I feel for you, too.  Tough to care so much, be so close, and feel like there is a glass wall there a lot of the time that prevents it from being what, normally, those feelings would lead to.  It's so good to find that there are at least a couple of other people around here who are trying this strange kind of relationship/friendship without a name.

[LetItBe]

Laelle, what you said about how it feels really good to be understood & accepted as you are, had a huge impact on the paradigm shift I've just made (choosing not to view my ex's occasional withdrawals as abusive, but as him; choosing to accept him).

And Cardinals in Flight, I feel for you, too.  Tough to care so much, be so close, and feel like there is a glass wall there a lot of the time that prevents it from being what, normally, those feelings would lead to.  It's so good to find that there are at least a couple of other people around here who are trying this strange kind of relationship/friendship without a name.

I can relate so much to what you all are saying. 

After 6 1/2 months of NC on my end (a few attempts on his end), I decided to respond to him, and we've had some contact since then.  We had a couple of texts, an email exchange, then a long phone conversation.  I felt encouraged by his owning his responsibility for where he's been and where he is (and once again his thanks to me for my participation in his life and growth).  I've also realized I have PTSD and can see how some of my actions made things worse, too.  We were both doing the best we could at the time.  We've both released each other from any blame, and that feels a lot better than holding onto the resentment I had.  He sounds like he's really come a long way, realizing he used to rely on others to "be okay."  He's remained diligent in his therapy and has been exploring a lot of the same Buddhist concepts that I have since our breakup.  Interesting... .  we've always had so many parallels that aren't just mirroring.  He's mentioned that he "doesn't love me any less than he did before."  When he spoke of some of his growth process, he acknowledged that there will be times when he needs to re-center, just as we all do, and that there could still be times when he withdraws.  So, it doesn't sound like he's being unrealistic, and I appreciate that.

I ran into him in our apartment building a couple of days later, and we ended up spending about an hour talking.  One of the things I loved the most about being with him was our conversations -- wow!  We connect so well intellectually!  I mentioned "I've missed this," and he said, "I've missed you, too."  The attraction is still there on both our parts, but it was left unspoken or acted upon.  Oh, I still have a big soft spot for him and wish he was capable of sustaining the kind of intimacy that I need in a relationship.  I did love our relationship before he/we fell apart.  He initiated a hug as I was about to leave, and it lasted quite awhile.  I felt a sense of relief and also a need to stay somewhat detached (hard to do).

He emailed me about a topic we connect on 4-5 days later, and I responded the next day.  I haven't heard from him in a few days or so.  Perhaps he's scared again.  Yeah, it's like a glass wall is between us.  I'm doing better about not taking it personally.  I know he doesn't disappear to hurt me.  He's got his own path to follow.  I've let go of trying to change him.  I'm not sure what this will look like moving forward... .  just doing my best to stay present, have compassion for both of us, and take care of myself.

[patientandclear]

Wow, NonGF.  That is so interesting to me.  It reminds me so much of my situation with my exbf, which has continued along those lines since my initial post on that thread about 6 weeks ago.

Your ex's honesty about how he doesn't love you any less than he did ... .  that's wonderful.  It's been really challenging for me to accept that, even though I am sad about this fact, the way he was trying to use my love for him initially was unhealthy.  It felt great to me but it was bad for him -- it was him using another person to fill a need that another person just cannot fill.  I am proud of him for going another route now, even though that necessarily involves the loss of that dream of the perfect relationship I thought I'd finally found.

For what it's worth, my ex continues to go quiet from time to time, but interestingly, less these days.  I think maybe he has grown in his confidence that this relationship is safe and he can experiment with being very close to me without anything terrible happening.  More and  more, he is the one who takes us to a new level of sharing and confiding.  I have also, recently, made an effort to gently forestalling us from spiraling up to the very peak of intimate intensity, which seems to always prompt him to withdraw.  Too soon to be sure about this, but I think that might also be helping make this feel safer for him.

It's quite hard for me still because of the tension between our reality and the idealized love he initially offered me.  I just posted a new thread on my struggles around that (and of course, got some awesome feedback from the brilliant folks around here).  But I am really proud of us, too.  We are "making the road by walking."  Not clear where it goes.

One thing I will offer: we no longer talk to one another about our relationship.  We live it.  I told him a ways back that I still love him & my feelings are unchanged, but also assured him I am not looking to him for anything he cannot give, and have no secret agenda other than this friendship.  I can tell I am very important to him.  But he doesn't use words for that -- he doesn't talk about whether he does or does not love me.  I think we are showing each other, rather than telling each other, that we love each other.  I have no problem with that, and it is clearly much easier for him to inhabit our closeness when we are not putting a label on it or saddling it with expectations he's not sure he can meet years down the road.  Truly, it is what it is.  And what it is keeps surprising me.

I hope you'll keep us updated on how this goes for you.  Wishing you the very best with this -- you both sound really warm and loving toward each other, strangely as that manifests itself in this situation.