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Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits. Practicing lawyer, Senior Family Mediator, and former Licensed Clinical Social Worker with twelve years’ experience and an expert on navigating the Family Court process.
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Author Topic: How often were they 'there' for you when YOU needed them?  (Read 5470 times)
HardTruth
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« Reply #30 on: January 03, 2013, 12:27:52 AM »

I keep coming back to this thread, and the definition of compassion - empathy for another's distress coupled with a desire to alleviate it.

The night before my exBPDbf broke up with me, he curled up with me all night as usual.  I had a little bit of a cough still, and when I woke him up with it, he hugged me and asked me if I wanted some water.  

When we woke up in the morning, we tried to have sex, but couldn't because he has erectile dysfunction.  That is when he turned me black.  While holding me curled up in his arms, he told me how it was my fault.  Then he jumped up and said he had to get the dog out of the car and take him for a walk.

When he came back, I still had tears in my eyes.  He didn't acknowledge anything while we drove to breakfast and had been sitting there for 1/2 an hour with him happily chatting.  Then he put his hand over my hand and said, I'm sorry I hurt you.  

But said nothing to ease the hurt.  And went on with eating his breakfast.  Then wanted to run an errand after breakfast... .  

After we got back, he told me how my body wasn't right, my touch was bad, etc etc... .  completely the opposite of what he told me for the last two months, of course.  But the most interesting thing about it, was his complete lack of desire or ability to soften the blow at all!  

You know, if I was going to give a guy the hard truth about how his ED (erectile dysfunction) was affecting my enjoyment of our sex life, I can't imagine offering it without saying something to counter it - like you have a great touch, I really like kissing you, etc. It would just be so MEAN to tear a guy down like that.

It was weird how there seemed to be this "sorry-ness" in hurting me, yet NO desire or impulse to counter it at all.  Kind of a coldness, or matter-of-fact-ness, actually.  At the end he said, Thanks for taking this so well.  Ha!  Actually, I was in complete shock, and unable to react much at all!

What is it that makes us feel loved?  Lots of things, but one is that someone reaches out when they see our pain, and tries to comfort us.  

It was weird how this was completely absent.  And the most PSYCHO part of it, is that he seemed like such an empathetic person!  Yet, when faced, eye to eye with a person he was causing pain to, had no sense of connection to me that way.  Could offer me a glass of water for my cough, though.  That didn't have emotional content, however!

Ideally, for people in an intimate relationship, empathy naturally inspires compassion. It's called emotional rapport.  This was more like a one-sided conversation.

When the baby cries, the mother comes and comforts him.  She feels his angst, and wants to ease it, impulsively.  When he laughs, she laughs too.  His joy is her joy. They mirror each other, and feel and respond to each other's emotions.

When my exBPDbf was an infant, his mother had major depression.  When he cried, she gave him coldness.  She probably handed him off to somebody else and said, Sorry, you take him cuz he's crying.

How sad, huh?

How many times did your BPD say they were sorry? (if you even got that) but did nothing to make amends... .  And how did that make you feel?  It just isn't enough, is it?

This thread has made me look closer at the emotional rapport I had with my exBPD and others in the past.  I don't think you can really see what someone's capacity for emotional RESPONSE is until you get to know them.  Cuz you can get fooled at the beginning, like I did.
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« Reply #31 on: January 03, 2013, 09:08:13 AM »

I remember during one argument when I was sick with a cold, I said that I wish that I had a partner who might want to take care of me when I was ill rather then feel insecure and need to get into an argument with me.  She just sat there and looked at me, with what is sometimes described as a "reptilian stare."  At the time time I thought she was being defiant in a manner stating... .  "I will not take care of you no matter if you argue or even if I should do it."  

What I understand now is that the stare was due to the fact that she didn't have it within her capacity to want to take care of me when I was sick.  All she could do was feel insecure and need reassurance.  It wasn't that she wouldn't take care of me at that moment, she couldn't.  It's the same as asking a scared two year old to think about you, instead of herself when she is in a moment of terror.  NOT possible.

Brilliant post, SP!

I experienced that same moment of realisation.  It was when the penny really dropped.  When I saw that look on her face, and saw the depth of terror she was in, that I'd placed her in by gently, but firmly, demanding some acknowledgment that she'd hurt me.  I'd done this with every bit of skill and imagination I had available to me as an empathetic, emotionally capable 40-year-old.  I prepared myself as I would for the hardest performance of my life.  I meditated and got myself into a frame of mind where I truly didn't feel anger - where I felt capable of asking for this acknowledgment but at the same time reassuring her that I didn't hate her.  With all this deployed, with the determination not to hurt her, with everything in me trying to reassure her that I wished her no harm; with me just asking, calmly, for her to just see the effect of what she'd done on me... .  

I got that terrified, reptilian stare.

And realised there was nothing I could do.  This was way bigger than me.  I was ripped in two afterwards.  I had to make an immediate call to a good friend the moment I parted company from the BPDex, to help me process all this.  I occupied that friend's ear for a good 4 hours.  I'm grateful to her; at the same time, I know that the horror of what I saw justified every second of that support I was asking for.

There's a simile for what our relationship was like that I came up with shortly before that final episode.  From a game of cards: I called it "emotional trumping".  :)oesn't matter what card I play (what's happening to me), her suit is trumps.  My mother is having surgery for cancer?  I think that's an Ace.  But she's in a particular mood, or needs/feels like talking about something of her own at that moment; she puts down her 2, and because it's _her_ suit (trumps), I have to shut up.

Thank God that was all 18 months ago!
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« Reply #32 on: January 03, 2013, 10:28:09 AM »

Rarely was he "there" for me. It's sad to think about all the times I wanted/needed him to be there, but I realize now that he wasn't capable of being there. That's a huge realization in itself for me.
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« Reply #33 on: January 03, 2013, 12:22:39 PM »

"When the baby cries, the mother comes and comforts him.  She feels his angst, and wants to ease it, impulsively.  When he laughs, she laughs too.  His joy is her joy. They mirror each other, and feel and respond to each other's emotions."

This got me thinking.  When the mother cries the baby cries too but the baby doesn't recognize the source of his sadness.  He feels the mother's emotion but probably mistakes it for his own or otherwise misappropriates or doesn't appropriate it's source due to a limited self-awareness.  We leave the room or don't express emotions so as to not upset the baby.

This was how it was to walk on eggs with my BPDxgf.  If I got upset she got upset so I didn't get upset.  Perhaps when we have a real and apparent need for emotional support and they are aware of it an issue will materialize to "trump" that need so there will be an internal explanation for the emotions the pwBPD is experiencing.  Or the emotion they are experiencing, which is coming from their undevloped empathetic response, finds an event or narrative to exist within.  Perhaps they are experiencing our emotions at times as though through empathy but dressing them up as their own. 
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« Reply #34 on: January 03, 2013, 02:01:27 PM »

My knee jerk reaction to the question of how often was my pwBPD there for me when I needed them was to think "A lot"... but then I thought about it. My exBPDgf was very supportive of me during my divorce (which she wanted me to get) so that I could be with her... and she was consistent, and made me think she was a rock/good person. However, outside of that... she was always having a bigger issue (trumping me)... and turning things around to make me feel I was not supportive enough.

I thought she supported me when I got a nasty nasty sunburn before going to see her... but thinking back, she called her best friend (a nurse) and the friend came and did everything. After the fact my exBPDgf brought it up constantly as an example of how she was always there for me and I wasn't for her. The burn was nasty, 2nd degree, all over shoulders/back... had on tshirt, was in shade under a giant umbrella watching daughter swim in pool and felt tingling... next morning had big blisters all over... sister is nurse and said I should have been in a burn unit... but the friend of the exBPDgf did the right stuff and I recovered.

I have seen an amazing amount of contempt and lack of empathy from my pwBPD. She seems to think out what she needs to do to show empathy at times... its awkward, overkill and comes off phony... when she knows she will need to show it (like funerals, visits to sick people, etc.) But the off the cuff responses, especially if she is at all pissed at someone... .  you would think she was a total sociopath, dead eyes, no mercy. I think witnessing that a number of times  Red flag/bad  (click to insert in post)  , is what kept me from marrying her and wanting to be sure r/s was right... and it was not. Glad for that small bit of sense.
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« Reply #35 on: January 03, 2013, 02:17:31 PM »

When we woke up in the morning, we tried to have sex, but couldn't because he has erectile dysfunction.

... .  

After we got back, he told me how my body wasn't right, my touch was bad, etc etc... .  completely the opposite of what he told me for the last two months, of course.  But the most interesting thing about it, was his complete lack of desire or ability to soften the blow at all!  

You know, if I was going to give a guy the hard truth about how his ED (erectile dysfunction) was affecting my enjoyment of our sex life, I can't imagine offering it without saying something to counter it - like you have a great touch, I really like kissing you, etc. It would just be so MEAN to tear a guy down like that.

It was weird how there seemed to be this "sorry-ness" in hurting me, yet NO desire or impulse to counter it at all.  Kind of a coldness, or matter-of-fact-ness, actually.  At the end he said, Thanks for taking this so well.  Ha!  Actually, I was in complete shock, and unable to react much at all!

Ideally, for people in an intimate relationship, empathy naturally inspires compassion. It's called emotional rapport.  This was more like a one-sided conversation.

... .  

When my exBPDbf was an infant, his mother had major depression.  When he cried, she gave him coldness.  She probably handed him off to somebody else and said, Sorry, you take him cuz he's crying.

How sad, huh?

How many times did your BPD say they were sorry? (if you even got that) but did nothing to make amends... .  And how did that make you feel?  It just isn't enough, is it?

Wow... hits on a lot of things for me. I had ED with my exBPDgf a few times... and at the time she seemed a bit sympathetic... but my reason for ED was the gut feeling I was being manipulated by her via sex... and once that thought was in my head I couldn't do it. More interesting to me... she also did nothing to help, but at the time didn't say anything. From then on any time she was mad and looking to insult me jabs about being limp were involved. To me, I loved her and sex was an expression of love in our relationship, and I would not intentionally do anything hurtful... to her, I think sex was something you do like washing dishes, and it had no meaning or significance as an indication of where we stood in our r/s. She could turn on/off her desire in a split second depending on what she wanted, and that didn't ever sit right for me. For me sex was a barometer of the relationship... if we were happy, we wanted to, if not we didn't... the r/s came first. Seeing sex as a control tactic soured me on sex with her for some time.

We had issues and were going to get back together and she had me agreeing to sell my house, and move away from my exwife and daughter and close to her... then when I was to see her... she didn't show and went NC... so I decided that was it, and haven't relented, went NC myself... then she flipped out wanting to get back together... but I suspect it was because she wasn't in control of getting dumped and if we got back together she would build us up till I was commited/hooked and then pull rug out. As I think the BPD is in ways almost like NPD or a sociopathic disorder... there is no empathy, they feel emotions strongly and when you disagree with them they over react, feel hatred, and feel justified in doing whatever they want because you are a bad person. Its ridiculous... for an adult, but pretty normal for a 3 yr old. When was a 3 yr old there for you when you needed?
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« Reply #36 on: January 03, 2013, 02:20:21 PM »

My ex didn't work. There were a few days I had to stay overnight at work. Every time it resulted in a huge blowup after me having to be up all night. Not cool. All about her not being able to be alone. The idea that I would be exhausted and need to go to bed didn't even cross her mind.
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« Reply #37 on: January 03, 2013, 02:24:42 PM »

"you would think she was a total sociopath, dead eyes, no mercy".

I've seen those eyes in my dad, my sister, and my exNPDbf.  I would probably see them in my exBPD if he hadn't disappeared with the cold, stony silent treatment.  I remember in the past not understanding what I saw. Or not believing it.  Now I trust myself and see that that is the truth.

When I was in high school, I got a chemical burn on my eyes from my contact lens solution that took the cornea off of both eyes.  I couldn't see, except for blurs and light.  The optometrist told my mom that he'd never seen anything like that before, didn't know if I'd ever be able to see again, and that she needed to take me to an opthamologist ASAP to see if there was anything that could be done.

She said we needed to ask my dad.  His answer was no.  They said I could just stay home from school.  It was because he didn't want to spend the money.  Although, the reason he gave was that you couldn't trust doctors.  I begged and begged and cried.  The answer was No.  

When I saw those same eyes in my exNPDbf when he finally stopped leading me on and broke up with me permanently cuz he's found a younger women to take my place, I had nightmares for MONTHS.  Woke at 4am every morning seeing those EYES.

Charred - you are so lucky you're not with her any more.  She reminds me of my dad.  It doesn't get any better.  They just fool you sometimes - my exNPD was really good at that.

On a good note, guess what I became?  I doctor! Smiling (click to insert in post)  And my corneas both healed and I got my vision back.
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« Reply #38 on: January 03, 2013, 02:29:13 PM »

HardTruth-

You also mentioned bonding with mother... I think the basis in part for BPD and NPD and some of the other PD's goes back to messed up secure attachments with the primary caregiver (mother usually) and when it is fouled up enough you get someone that doesn't feel empathy, that can't handle things like abandonment, etc. In my case I think my exBPDgf love bombed me like the warm caring mother I never had during the idealization phase, and got her hooks in deep, then would bring out the nice loving mother whenever I was drifting too far away ... .  due to all the abuse hurled by her. Being dumped then was devastating ... .  my mom never dumped me, she was present but cold... but having that person that you thought you could love/trust completely, finally, dump you without explanation... .  is life shattering.

I needed my exBPDgf at the time I was dumped... terrifically, and she was not there... not for 20+ yrs when she came around the second time... so I think that kind of covers it from my view. No real empathy... a twinge of sympathy once in a while if they have faced same thing... but its really them remembering that they had issue... and very little addressing hurt unless they feel it is socially required... and then it is so awkward as to seem phony/contrived.
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« Reply #39 on: January 03, 2013, 02:43:35 PM »

HardTruth-

Congratulations... being a doctor is the best medicine... you have done well.

My exBPDgf is bad news... you mentioned NPD... and my dad (a doctor) is NPD and I know what you are talking about. Never was denied medical treatment, but the dead eyes, the lack of caring, the actively seeking to harm me... lot of that. I got along okay with him till I was a teenager... and then he seemed to want to compete... he always had to be better than me... no matter what that entailed. He had a VW rabbit, I bought a used 280Z, one comment from someone about my car being sportier the day I got it and he dissapeared, and came back with a Vette roadster. It was funny at the time, but ceased being that way over time. Later it became clear that no one mattered to him but him. I could go on and on, but if you grew up with one you know the hell. Great article on it on www escapeabuse website under NPD.pdf called "what makes a narcissist tick" ... absolutely spot on perfect description of my dad and life with him. In my case I was probably his favorite person in the world... and he made my life hell anyway. God help those he disliked, he was flat out evil.

Twelve years ago I decided to get him out of my life, he tried to cause my wife to have a miscarriage... because he didn't want to be a grandfather, that meant he was old and it might make gals have less interest in him if they knew he was a grandpa. He has never seen his granddaughter in person, and I hope never does. My whole family quit dealing with him after his mother died... they had went along with him for her sake... but they all came to detest him.

Neither of my parents were there when I needed them... .  much at all, and my exBPDgf was just the same, disordered and lacking in empathy.
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« Reply #40 on: January 03, 2013, 04:26:10 PM »

That is so sad, Charred!  And complete craziness with your dad and the car!  I keep going back to my childhood and looking back on it to try to understand how it is that I'm in the position I am now.  And what I need to do to fix it.

"In my case I think my exBPDgf love bombed me like the warm caring mother I never had during the idealization phase, and got her hooks in deep, ... .  

Being dumped then was devastating ... .  my mom never dumped me, she was present but cold... but having that person that you thought you could love/trust completely, finally, dump you without explanation... .  is life shattering."

I TOTALLY get this!  I can really really relate to it.  It's why I went back to my exNPDbf even after he'd hurt me so badly.  Lucky for me, my exBPD has given me the full-on silent treatment, otherwise I might have let him have another round!  Although being on this site has given me enough clarity that even if in the future he tried to recycle me, it won't work.
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« Reply #41 on: January 03, 2013, 04:36:32 PM »

You know what else is funny.  My cat got sick a couple years ago.  It was so bad that a vet wouldn't cut it, so I took her to the animal hospital.  It cost me $3700 total.  So, I often tell her, "You're a VERY expensive little cat!  But you're worth every penny!".  I wish my dad valued me as much as I value my cat!

So, my cat loves to watch movies with me, of course Smiling (click to insert in post)  She just curls up and takes a little nap.  So, I got Mommy Dearest cuz I heard it was an example of BPD.  Heck!  My cat got scared while watching the movie!  I have never seen her jump so many times!  Even with Lord of the Rings or whatever!
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« Reply #42 on: January 03, 2013, 05:00:50 PM »

btw, even when my ex tore me down, I still never - then or since - have brought up the ED.  Even though at the time I thought, Jeez... it's the pot calling the kettle black!  So, if a person ever does that to you, huge  Red flag/bad  (click to insert in post) in my opinion!  Not nice!
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« Reply #43 on: January 03, 2013, 05:32:10 PM »

My ex was certainly very attentive in the early days of the r/s.

I do not sleep very well and rather than wake him up in the middle

of the night, Id come downstairs and lay on the couch.

He would wake up and be alarmed and come looking for his precious one

and be so worried and hug me, stroke my hair. ooh i wish for those days again Smiling (click to insert in post)

One morning I got up very early and popped out to the shop. I did not wake anyone

up as i just wanted to get the shopping in and get back. Within 10 mins or so, my mobile

rang... .  it was him, worried sick and missing me.  He got dressed and hurried down the

street to meet me.  I did not mind. I loved his attention. My ex before him didnt give a ~

about me, i am diabetic and had alot of hypos and i had to struggle downstairs to see to

myself.  I honestly thought he wanted me to die.

But this man, was absolutely wonderful.  He made me a cuppa tea if i asked.  And i cared so

much for him too.  I loved him. And if i got ill, i recovered very quickly as his love was more

potent than any antibiotic  Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)

Towards the end though, when i was ill with flu, diabetic problems or whatever,  all i got was a phone

call from my ex.  he kept away.  didnt seem to care anymore 

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« Reply #44 on: January 03, 2013, 10:13:11 PM »

My ex never used to appologize for anything, ever.  Accountability is pretty much the issue I focussed on when we split six weeks ago.  She broke nc after christmas, first to extend an invitation from her mother to the big party, fair enough.  I responded cordially and declined.  Then she sent me several emails that were like nothing I have ever heard from her, full of apologies and the accountability I had been asking for.  It's been really hard to stand firm hearing exactly what I need to hear from her.  Could be when she's not triggered by me and the rs her mind clears up.  It's very convincing to hear, however she owes me money she stole from me when I was painted black... .  on several occassions (oops,  Red flag/bad  (click to insert in post) ).  I had made the decision not to consider any words she offered until action was taken toward toward that debt.  Words and actions not matching as you all well know.  So I guess I'm round-filing the most amazing communication I've ever gotten from her.  There is no disagreement whatsoever about this debt either mind you.  She has fully fessed up to the crimes and forgiveness was offered, this last time at least contingent on payments being made toward this debt.  We recycled last fall and there was clear understanding communicated and received that her being in my life was contingent on the promise she made to try and repay.  Not one cent has come to me although I have received many glowing promises and statements of contrition.  Of course it's not about the money, it's about me having the smallest shred of dignity and insisting my friends, after they rob me and steal my money and kick me around a bit, give back the actual cash money they took from me and sort of half-ass appologize before we start merging our thanksgiving plans again.  Oh phooey, I could rant for hours but that money is gone for good.
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« Reply #45 on: January 04, 2013, 11:21:59 PM »

This is not really my place to comment here as someone with BPD, but I wanted to say that you all are absolutely correct. Just recently, my husband got sick with the flu, and I was annoyed at him because I was going to spend the day shopping. What kind of crap is that I told myself? He had asked me to go to the store and make my famous paninis, and at first I balked. I had other stuff to do (none which were very important).

I took a step back and realized that my husband would do that for me in a heartbeat, and so I went out, made paninies, and made sure they were the best paninis he had. The next day, I canceled work to lay in bed with him so he felt comforted.

It is something that is so baffling to me. I should want to help those closest to me. But it's almost as though I feel fear that our dynamic is going to change or that they are going to die, or whatever, and leave me alone.

But it's not all about me... .  too bad emotions aren't rational.

I am so sorry for you all. Your posts brought tears to my eyes because I know the situation you are referring to. Those are the times we don't feel human in lacking that empathy.
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« Reply #46 on: January 05, 2013, 12:42:02 AM »

FB is evil if you have an ex pwBPD. 

Checked my exBPDgf's and she is posting about how with the guy she needs; "words don't matter its actions that do."

That was one of her favorite jabs at me, saying my words were pretty but didn't match my actions... .  and she is right.

My words were of  being together as partners, that I loved and would protect her.

Her actions showed she had no idea what a partner is and couldn't be one, that she has no real ability or deep understanding of the give and take that is part and parcel of an adult love relationship, and she twisted "protecting her" to mean backing her vicious attacks on my ex-wife, daughter and myself. Her words were sarcastic at times, mocking at times, exaggerated condescending baby talk at times, all interlaced with anger and vitriol.

So do my words match my actions... NO my actions have been honorable, but my words were cast like pearls before swine... .  they were backed by gold, traded to an emotional scammer that used a fiat currency and fraudulent means to get what she wanted.
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« Reply #47 on: January 05, 2013, 12:52:55 AM »

HighFunctional - thank you for your post.  It is helpful to hear what the other person may be going through. 

"But it's almost as though I feel fear that our dynamic is going to change or that they are going to die, or whatever, and leave me alone. "

This is something that hadn't occurred to me as an experience that my ex might have been having. 

It was nice of you to make the paninis for your husband, and really nice for you to stay home and lay in bed with him!  I would have LOVED if my exBPD, or any of my ex's, BPD or not!, would do that for me!
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« Reply #48 on: January 05, 2013, 08:08:51 AM »

I was thinking also about our pwBPD and our r/s with them. Mine says my actions dont match my words... and at the moment she is mostly referring ... I think, to saying I care but not being with her when she needs me. She is need driven, has made that clear by her actions all the time, and at the moment is going through a cancer scare, and may well have some kind of cancer, her mother and grandmother had it and it came on around her age.

So she is saying my words always that I cared... don't match being apart from her when she needs me... .  yet she has a new guy that she idealizes and is saying puts a smile on her face and is there for her (he hasn't been put through the clinging/hating phases yet ... far as I know, or maybe he is now in clinging.)

The thing I am thinking is that she used to give me hope of a wonderful future with her, and it was all delusional fantasy on my part, the reality was great for me in the idealization phase, but its stunk the rest of the time. And each make up has a shorter and shorter happy time, before the nastiness kicks in.

If the pill making people came up with a near cure for the emotional dysregulation that BPD people suffer... .  what would be the effect? I think about my relation with my pwBPD, and first thought is "it would be great, we could be together"... but part of her draw to me was the larger than life emotionality, she wasn't happy, she would be bouncing around like Thumper in Bambi, and our r/s was intense, both intensely good and intensly bad... if that volume knob on the emotions were turned down, she would be a completely different person... .  admittedly one that might be capable of wanting to be fixed and even able to be fixed... .  but she would also be a lot closer to all the normal people that I didn't fixate on, dream of, and trauma bond with.

Just some idle thought... .  I don't think that given the situation, a miracle cure is a possibiity, the dynamics of the relationship are such that fixing the person would end the deep connection. Or as I see it, there is no hope of a good end where she and I are together without fireworks.

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« Reply #49 on: January 05, 2013, 05:13:27 PM »

When she says, "Your actions don't match your words", I think what she's really saying is, "You're not submitting to my control, and I don't like that". 

She's highly manipulative, and she's good at it.  As a result, you are in and out of the FOG, getting stuck on the WORDS, but you already know the behind-the-scenes meaning... .  or at least suspect it.

Don't get stuck on the words.  They are just a transmission to confuse and manipulate you. 
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« Reply #50 on: January 06, 2013, 06:37:15 AM »

HardTruth-

I never knew what was behind her words, as they were always vague... like she would say "The hardest thing is admitting you are wrong."... .  What the heck? 

Hard for who? Admitting who was wrong? Wrong about what? That is the kind of vague blank statements she would make and then be closed lipped.

There is no good response to that... .  if you take it as a lead in that YOU were wrong... you are being asked to confess to something. If you ask what they thought was wrong... .  you might get an answer... but are more likely to get the "you know what you did" response, or "You are paranoid, I wasn't talking about you, you know not everything is about you."  so it ends up being a manipulation... .  though it may have been some stunted attempt to say something... never could figure it out, nor could anyone... .  and I am pretty sure that was the point.
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« Reply #51 on: January 06, 2013, 09:46:37 AM »

Charred-

The answer is in the question.   Look inside.
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« Reply #52 on: January 06, 2013, 11:38:47 AM »

Yes, Charred, your post makes sense.  That's what I meant - that you sensed that behind the words was some form of manipulation and disordered emotional state - probably involving pain, fear, anger or anxiety.  Thus, her comment or her question wasn't completely sincere - it was not coming genuinely from the heart or from an accurate assessment of reality.

That's why I said, don't get stuck on the WORDS.  You already know that, but it's hard not to.  It makes your mind race as you try to figure it out.  Believe me, I did this with my ex after he turned me black.  Finally I saw that a lot of it was either a form of projection, a cover-up of his confusing emotion, etc.  Since their emotions and thought process associated with their emotion is disordered, it's difficult to know EXACTLY what was going on "behind-the-scenes".  

All you know is that you can't take their words at face value.  I know you already know that, but I'm just validating it.

Unlike your ex-wife.  If she says something to you, most of the time it makes sense to you, right?  Regardless of whether you agree or not, or whether you like what she's saying or not.  How often when your ex-wife communicates with you do you go, Whaaaat?  Maybe sometimes, but not 50% of the time, or 80% of the time... .  

Your dad sounds like he was pretty mixed up too, in his emotional state and being able to be mature, consistent and caring.  Mine was too.  Mine was on the crazy train.  Sociopath with paranoia.  I kept expecting him to show up as my dad, but he could only do that maybe 5% of the time.  And only if there was no stressor.  I expect that your exBPDgf is similar.  

What you said earlier - that your words and actions do match - you were asking for partnership and talking as if she could be a partner.  But she can't. And it's because of that that now, superficially, it looks like your words and actions don't match.

But it just looks like that to her, or she wants to twist it that way.  To the rest of us, your words and actions DO match, she just couldn't step up to it.
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« Reply #53 on: January 06, 2013, 01:13:26 PM »

When she says, "Your actions don't match your words"

It's a form of projection. She's really saying, "MY actions don't match MY words." Same as if she said, for example, "You're an a$%h*le", that's also probably about herself.

It's when they're telling you how great you are that you need to believe it.  Smiling (click to insert in post)

(Believe, but don't go backwards. It could also be a ploy. Don't recycle.)
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« Reply #54 on: January 06, 2013, 06:38:13 PM »

Excerpt
fraudulent means to get what she wanted

What do you think she wanted?
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« Reply #55 on: January 06, 2013, 10:39:34 PM »

We had been married over 25 years when my mother died, he didnt think he could handle it so he never showed up for anything including the funeral. I took care of evey thing, took care of my father they were married 50 yrs and my 4 kids all by myself. I thought at the time I was helping him to cope. Really how twisted we allow our thinking to be. No one was there to take care of me.
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« Reply #56 on: January 07, 2013, 12:25:51 PM »

Excerpt
fraudulent means to get what she wanted

What do you think she wanted?

I would guess she wanted me to treat her like she treated me during the idealization phase... but without expressing any opinions of my own, and rejecting/despising my exwife, and avoiding/ignoring my daughter... .  visibly to her, like snubbing them all the time.

Were I to do that ... .  she would come up with more preposterous things she wanted that were psychologically painful for me.

One of her long FB rants was that " it could never work with us, that I would have to cut my apron strings with my ex, quit using her as a wetnurse for my emotions, would have to grow a backbone, move close to her, and be trustworthy, ans that I wasn't man enough to do any of those... .  and she couldn't trust me in any event."

What is kind of amusing about her was that she did her best to present the front of being a religious, sweet, helpful, caring woman of high morals. She loved to talk about how sinful other people were, how she felt a calling to help people and that led her to teaching, that many times she considered joining a convent to do god's work, etc. Those were the words... the actions, couple abortions, she came to me, a married man and did everything in her power to get me to pursue a divorce (which I stupidly did), when she is mad ... .  well few sailors have the cursing vocabulary she does and amazing willingness to say anything/everything that came to her mind that was hurtful.  And despite her btching about it, we ended after her words that we were going to live together and start things right... .  were followed by the unmatching actions of being a no show, and going NC, without explanation... .  so the "Words not matching actions" I believe is based on a cross between projection and me having some integrity and her wishing to use my modicum of virtue to pistol whip me in to submission to her deep seated whims.



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« Reply #57 on: January 07, 2013, 02:19:38 PM »

Yeah. She probably wanted you to focus all your attention and resources on her. Not very reasonable at all.
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« Reply #58 on: January 07, 2013, 02:55:09 PM »

The content of all most all our arguments was her wanting me to cut off and treat my exwife like crap, and be strict/hard on my daughter. I refused to do either, and tried to get the focus on us and our r/s. Every normal relationship I had over time became more comfortable, less stressed, and the enjoyment of being with the other person drove out fears and insecurities. With my pwBPD, it was the exact opposite. If we were together enjoying a nice time, she would start agitating about my exwife.

This is what she said when I responded to an email where she was begging me to come back... .  friendly for her;

"The only way this could even possibly be true is if absolutely nothing were the same as before.  No <exwife> being allowed to interfere... .  No daughter being indulged to the point where you are jumping every time she twitches a little finger... .  No living in <city>, where you are constantly on call, with <exwife> hand being in your pocket at every turn... .  Nothing from the past being allowed to interfere with the future... .  No calling <exwife> the moment you are away from me, telling her what a huge mistake it was for you to try to reconcile with me.  No <exwife> being allowed to email me or call me, bullying me and harassing me.  Me, coming first, PERIOD.  I will never return again to what I had to endure for those three God-forsaken years."



Oh, by the way, she called my exwife and bullied her, texted and emailed her nasty letters... claimed exwife did it, I asked to see it... .  excuses, my exwife showed me all kinds of nasty texts/emails.

But back to the crazy emails... she followed up the above one with this;


"The same problem as always... .  I would have to trust you.

And I don't.

It would take decades of you proving, every single day of your life, that you are above reproach.

You aren't up to the challenge."



So I said... .  "Whatever, good luck to you anyway."

And got back;

"Your response indicates that I am absolutely correct.  All it takes is me pointing out the obvious and you cave.

Strong to the end... .  Not."




As communications go with my exBPDgf... .  she was being very nice, best behavior.  Later she painted me black and made it clear I was unreasonable... Guess not being willing to prove to her every day for decades (as her slave i think) that I was trustworthy to keep distance from my exwife, who doesn't particularly want me around... .  to move out of the city I live in to be close to her... .  in fact she wanted me to move in with my mother.  (That is what every successful 50 yr old man wants to do.) And "those three god forsaken years"... .  she earlier claimed were the best in her life and she couldn't stand having them end.

A+ crazy making.






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« Reply #59 on: January 07, 2013, 03:26:56 PM »

In caring, truly altruistic way? Never. If she could not judge, criticize or tell me what I SHOULD do or SHOULD have done. Any way to put herself above me, There was nothing. The topic would quickly switch to her in some way. Im not saying this in a way that makes her bad, but she was never there for me.

When I texted her to tell her that my older sister had an irregular mammogram, I got no response. NONE for about five days. Everything ended up ok, but I was not pleased- I was really worried about my sister. When I asked her about it, she responded, "I knew everything would be ok. It wasnt a bid deal." Her mother was a breast cancer survivor. Of all the things I thought she might empathize with, I def. thought this would be one. Wrong.

When I say never. I mean it.
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