Home page of BPDFamily.com, online relationship supportMember registration here
January 20, 2021, 02:39:05 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Board Admins: Harri, Once Removed
Senior Ambassadors: Cat Familiar, I Am Redeemed, Mutt, Turkish
  Help!   Groups   Please Donate Login to Post New?--Click here to register  
bing
Things we can't afford to ignore
Depression: Stop Being Tortured by Your Own Thoughts
Surviving a Break-up when Your Partner has BPD
My Definition of Love. I have Borderline Personality Disorder.
Codependency and Codependent Relationships
89
Pages: 1 2 3 [All]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: How often were they 'there' for you when YOU needed them?  (Read 5472 times)
Yolo
****
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 257


« on: December 23, 2012, 08:00:12 PM »

HardTruth, if you read this I hope you don't mind my jumping off of a post you made to Diana82 in regards to her situation, because it is a topic that really struck a chord with me and can almost stand alone.  I wish I knew how to quote effectively here, but I'm copy/pasting in HardTruth's comment to Diana82:

--------------------------------------

How often when you were together was your exgf really there when you needed her?

When you had a problem in the relationship or were hurt in the relationship, how often did she turn it around and make it about her?  How often did she get defensive or snappy?  Compared to how often was she able to step out of herself and really focus on you, how you were feeling, and what she could do to fix the problem and make you feel better?

Yes, they can be sweet, and charming and PASSIONATE!  express their love for you, their need for you, their vulnerability - please don't leave me... , when things are easy, they're lonely, they're in the first throws of love, and their control (over engulfment, their social mask, your love, etc) is not threatened. 

But how often was she there for YOU.  She's not there now.  She knows you're hurting.  She abandoned you and the relationship, and yet again is blaming it all on you. 

Perhaps you are going through a familiar cycle - you stand up for yourself, she withdraws, blames you... then YOU apologize...   You haven't done anything wrong - sure, you're not perfect, but in my opinion, SHE is the one who has done something wrong.  I'm sure she likes it when you come running after her, taking the blame for the separation or uncomfortable feelings.  She's in control again.  Unfortunately, being in control doesn't make her more caring. 



-------------------------------

I had a few occasions during the 3.5 years with my Ex that really called for support.  In each and every one of those, he became completely selfish, opportunistic, drop off, even blaming me and the situations for his behavior.

I would be pulled into important work projects that would take many hours and 7 days a week so I could not specify when exactly I'd be available, so instead of trying to help me, he would drop off the face of the earth for days at a time doing "whatever he wanted to do".  During one project he felt guilty, showed up at my work with flowers and a care package and a big display that the company president witnessed... .and the president and everyone on the team I was working with used that as an example of our dedication and the sacrifices our 'families' had made.  However, that display, happened AT THE END of the project, the final day... .what they didn't see was the weeks before where he pretty much used that time to absorb himself in his own life and indulgences.  Spotty comms were about him, not how are you holding up.  And he'd be absent, off courting other women for days at a time.  Guess at the end he figured he'd need to make some grand gesture to make up for the support that wasn't there while I was in hell.

Work situations happened, I had to study for a certification intensely and he mentioned being there with me even if I had to study, but never was (doing his own thing).

The worst was this past February when my son got very ill... .took him to the Childrens hospital here in Phoenix, he was immediately taken to ICU for diabetic ketoacidosis (this is how we found out he'd developed type 1 diabetes). 

During that time, at text saying... .well, glad it isn't anything more serious. (what?).  He showed up at my house and crawled into bed with me at 5am one of the mornings (drunk and probably after having slept with someone else).  I told him my youngest son and I needed to go to the hospital to visit the older son but would be back.  Arrived back home, exBPDbf, still sleeping... of course, why wouldnt he be?  I tried to get the youngest son set with a game we'd try to download, and hear the exBPDbf's car drive off.  Look for him he was gone.  Amazed he'd even woke up after being so drunk and only 5 hrs of sleep.  He was so mean to me and said he felt 'ignored'.  THEN, later on that day, invited me to spend time with him after my evening hospital visit, and when I didn't confirm in a timely manner, ended up at another womans house overnight.  Horrible!

Not once, SERIOUSLY, not once during any work situation, any academic situation, any family emergency was he there for me... .not once did I recieve a "Is there anything I can do?"

My moods are a moot point really... .he didn't care if I was up or down so I won't even bring that up.  If I was down or sad, he could care less most of the time.  Just "OK, we'll get together later" and go off to party on his own. So opportunistic I swear.

Holy cow, I couldn't bear the thought of him feeling down, or going through a crises.  In fact, I usually would try to insert myself in spite of him telling me he might not be good company.  I didn't care! I wanted to be there for him... .in any way, just for him to know I was there.  I'd do anything for him, it hurt me if he was hurting.  I don't know if that is healthy, but I really did care about him.

The fact that I can't really site very many times where I was down or going through a challenging time where he was 'there' for me is just saddening to me.  I think the fact he wasn't there, added to my misery while I was going through my own stuff.  Because on many levels, I knew it was pathetic that I couldn't even count on my significant other for support.  My friends stepped up to the plate plenty... .my partner.  Nope.

So I suppose I didn't lose much by losing him for sure.  Next curve ball, I will be on my own with my family and friends... .the same as it was while I was with him.  Probably I'll just be less depressed because I won't have to think about how horrible it feels to be backburnered when I really need my partners support.

UGHGHGH!  Anyway.  I WANTED to be there for him. He could care less about me.
Logged
Yolo
****
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 257


« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2012, 08:03:17 PM »

PS: Yes, they certainly can be passionate... .but COM-PASSIONATE.  That was a very rare thing indeed.
Logged
Yolo
****
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 257


« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2012, 08:13:56 PM »

Sorry, and PPS: I know HardTruth's quote was more about turmoil and feelings in a relationship ABOUT the relationship issues and what was going on in the relationship.

Unless my Ex was feeling particularly insecure or guilty AND I was threatening to leave, he could absolutely give a rat's turd how I felt in the relationship.

The over-riding attitude with him was "It's my way or the high-way"... .but of course complicated enough to make me still think that I somehow mattered--even when the concern I showed him was no where near reciprocated.

But I guess that original post really just got down to the nuts and bolts... .how often was your BPDex really there for you, at all?
Logged
willy45
Formerly "johnnyorganic", "rjh45", "SurferDude"
******
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 762



« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2012, 08:22:40 PM »

Interesting... .

I was just thinking about this. When we broke up she lashed out at me for never being there for her and always running away. And I remembered thinking to myself: "When were YOU there for ME?" She always had some sort of drama or trauma going on and at first, I was always there to help. I figured if she just got over this one thing or this one ailment, then all would be good. But it never stopped. And yes, I did withdraw but not because I didn't care but because I didn't want to be completely sucked in. It was on-going. And I started to think... .well, what does it matter if I help or not? The drama is never going to end. There is always going to be something.

And recently, I have been thinking to myself, when were you there when I needed you? And honestly, I can't remember. I remember this one time that my computer was crashing and I was in a panic and called her to see if she could check something out on the Internet for me. She told me she was watching a movie and would call me back when it was done.

But honestly, I didn't really have the same drama as her. I never had the same physical ailments. So, I really don't know. She was there sometimes for sure. Especially at the beginning. But otherwise, who knows? I was so wrapped up in constantly trying to solve her problems that mine never really came up.
Logged
Yolo
****
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 257


« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2012, 09:04:39 PM »

Hmm... .well, mine had issues, but not really physical... he got sick with the flu here or there and of course I stepped up.  One time making him homemade chicken noodle soup with homemade noodles and everything WHILE we were on a break but 'working on reconciliation' via email.  (I dropped it off on his porch early morning on my way to work... .so shy Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)).

My Ex's mood swings and dramas outside of me could range from visitation arrangements with his ExWife (#2), or some work thing, or sometimes some percieved hurt caused by ME.  Wasn't CONSTANT as I believe your Ex's were, but somewhat frequent.  I never really carried a ledger around and logged them because... .I dont know. I did what I could and felt I was being a good partner. It felt good to think that maybe I was helping him.

NOW, if it was a neverending flow of one thing after another with him, Oh my, yah, I do think I'd become desensitized to it at some point. Shoot you almost have to, or just quit life and become a full time care taker.

You had that one instance that stands out that for once you asked for her help and she minimized it... .imagine if something big had happened?  Mmm... no don't imagine that because I don't think you'd like the visual.

Truly BPD... .it is about showing your love and devotion and a lot of us did that.  When things would come up for us, however, there was no compassion for us.  Only disdain... because we could not focus on them 100000% during those times.  They would cope oh yes.  Be it piling on our own misery and making us feeling more guilty because we didn't have the time, or deciding, OK, since YOU aren't available at my whim, I think I'll take this time to cultivate some new crop.  Yay!  Because I will not be 'ignored'... .ever.

The lack of concern for our feelings about relationship issues is all over this board really... .not taking responsibility, deflection, can't handle it so on and so forth.  What is somewhat interesting is when things happen that are NOT a product of the relationship.

I would think they are so bent on maintaining some image that this would be a great opportunity to demonstrate how wonderful they are?  My experience at least is NOT AT ALL.  So far from the opposite.  They blame you, they blame the circumstance, they disappear, they can't seem to handle even the basics of being a supportive partner.

Man, I had friends that lived 45 min from me, buying me toilet paper during situations because I didn't have time to do it myself... .then wiping my snot off my hardwood because I woulnd have heard from the Ex in a day or two and then I'd hear news that the Ex was spotted at a club living it up with some other girl (while we were still together mind you).

So, the concept that he was distraught because I wasn't readily available is lost on me. 

I kind of wish he were so incessently needy because then maybe I wouldn't feel so bad.  Thing is I NEVER asked him for anything (maybe to come jump my car a couple times).  So his insensitivity towards me had nothing to do with me wearing out his compassion.
Logged
myself
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 3151


« Reply #5 on: December 23, 2012, 09:11:25 PM »

they certainly can be passionate... .but COM-PASSIONATE.  That was a very rare thing indeed.

That pretty much sums it up.

Logged
smartwoman220
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Relationship status: single
Posts: 82



« Reply #6 on: December 23, 2012, 10:26:48 PM »

Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)... .   He tried to make me think i was crazy when  I told him he has never been there for me.  Of course, he would  throw up the little things he had done for me, and of course make sure to  share those with my famiy.   After the last incident we had, the only thing he could say that he has done for me was buy my sons birthday cake.


But, I was always there for him... We lived in atlanta,  and he had a blow out in Alabama, about 2.5 hours from where I live.  Guess who drove to where he was  in the middle of the night.  He was arrested for  drunk driving a few months ago... .and because of his behavior, his  phone call was withheld. His entire family  was going nuts and blowing u my phone because  no one had heard from him.  Guess who  found him AND bailed him out.   

And guess who  wouldn't even help me put air in my tires, but was insanely jealous when they  found out a nice guy a the gas station help me... .   or even help me pay bills in our home... .


Just revisiting this in my head gives me a little extra strength to keep moving further and further away

 
Logged
Yolo
****
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 257


« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2012, 11:09:48 PM »

Smartwoman220... .well, this is some good stuff to delve into.

Doing nice things.  My Ex, when he felt like it did some really nice things actually!  It was perhaps part of the confusion really. He actually did some really thoughtful things... .just as your Ex did for your son's B-day.

Buying me hair clips or underwear once in a while, soups to keep at his house because he knew I liked that, he threw a B-Day party for me at his house for my 40th this last July AND all expenses paid trip to Seattle for us as well for my B-day (never mind the B-day party ended in that he'd proposisitioned a couple for s3x with us that was turned down-thank god, which I found out about at the end of the night--by the Wife of the couple... .but hey, at least it was the parents of one of his daughters friends and I had NOTHING to do with it!... .never mind that he spent half of the Seattle trip making out with a girl 20 yrs his jr. and wanted to be 'open' to "craziness" when I just wanted he and I to enjoy the trip TOGETHER--it was my Bday right? My wish right... to be normal? But... .he was paying for it... .).

I digress... .he'd flat out ruined the 3 prior B-days each and every one of them, and I think he was out to make a statement with my 40th (this last one in July).  The problem is that he could not seem to keep his own selfish desires out of it... .there was still an element of it had to be fun 'for him'.  It wasn't about me, even those gestures.  He certainly hoped to gain out of it, it's not like he was receiving any joy from seeing me truly at ease and happy.

The further out I get, the more I see those little gestures were just kind of snigglets to do what had to be done to keep up a pretense of caring... .to keep me around, to make me think he cared.  Some of those... the hair clips, or diet cokes in the mornign from McD's, an OCCASIONAL nice dinner out... .was just some sort of pretense.  Underwear, he probably benefited from as well... .and certainly the GRAND gestures, there was a payoff to him, either implicit or explicit.

I think of some of that stuff as almost emotional blackmail. Doing just enough nice things so that you'll stick around a little longer.  Paying you in word/deed/material thing to think that they really did care... .going through the motions of a real relationship... .cuz otherwise, lets face it, if they treated us horribly most of the time and never did anything nice at all even WE, the dug in committed ones would leave.
Logged
Yolo
****
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 257


« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2012, 11:30:25 PM »

Myself, you highlighted something that'd I'd quoted in HardTruth's quote... then kind of expounded on a little.  I knew what I was saying but then was curious about what we just seemed to understand in context.

About it seeminng that our Ex's lacked compassion for us.

What is the definition of compassion [Merriam-Webster]:

sympathetic consciousness of others' distress together with a desire to alleviate it

Did you have real compassion? I think I did... .I honestly could feel his hurt or anxiety or whatever it was and I honestly didn't think twice about doing whatever I could to help him feel better.  To me, to think he felt bad, rejected, sad, down, frustrated, worried... .I don't know, I would feel what he felt and I'd do whatever was in my power to at least support him.

I'm tearing up now just writing that because I know he did NOT feel the same way towards me.  I don't know if it was 'me' or his capabilities.

I don't want to value judge because maybe it is not natural for everyone to feel compassion towards people they care about? I just feel like that doesn't really compute for me

Well... .I guess I could say that compassion is a symptom of codependency and maybe not such a 'good' thing.  But Wikipedia has me thinking we are all angels here--according to those sources, the ability to have compassion is one of the highest virtures (?), so I think I'll go with Wikipedia Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)     

[bCompassion is the virtue of empathy for the suffering of others. It is regarded as a fundamental part of human love, and a cornerstone of greater social interconnection and humanism —foundational to the highest principles in philosophy, society, and personhood.

Compassion is often regarded as emotional in nature, and there is an aspect of compassion which regards a quantitative dimension, such that individual's compassion is often given a property of "depth," "vigour," or "passion." The etymology of "compassion" is Latin, meaning "co-suffering." More virtuous than simple empathy, compassion commonly gives rise to an active desire to alleviate another's suffering. It is often, though not inevitably, the key component in what manifests in the social context as altruism. In ethical terms, the various expressions down the ages of the so-called Golden Rule embody by implication the principle of compassion: Do to others what you would have them do to you.[1]The English noun compassion, meaning to suffer together with, comes from the Latin. Its prefix com- comes directly from com, an archaic version of the Latin preposition and affix cum (= with); the -passion segment is derived from passus, past participle of the deponent verb patior, patī, passus sum. Compassion is thus related in origin, form and meaning to the English noun patient (= one who suffers), from patiens, present participle of the same patior, and is akin to the Greek verb πάσχειν (= paskhein, to suffer) and to its cognate noun πάθος (= pathos).[2][3] Ranked a great virtue in numerous philosophies, compassion is considered in almost all the major religious traditions as among the greatest of virtues.

][/b]



As another post script... .NO, my exBPD did NOT show or experience compassion with me... .his 'greatest love'.
Logged
doubleAries
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Parent
Relationship status: married to a bipolar with psychotic features (paranoid delusions), with strong ASPD and NPD traits (diagnosed)
Posts: 1124


the key to my destiny is me


« Reply #9 on: December 24, 2012, 12:02:43 AM »

My husband and I are recently seperated (16 year marriage, 18 year total relationship). He is diagnosed bipolar 1 with ASPD and NPD.

here's one of my many examples, and what I have gotten from it:

2 years ago, I had to have a hysterectomy. This is a major surgery, and I was pretty scared. Both H and I are volunteer firefighters, and on our way to the hospital for the surgery (I had to ask him to drive me because he didn't think of that) he forgot something and had to go back. What he forgot was his fire dept pager and radio. I couldn't believe it. I said "what are you doing?" and he replied ":)UH! getting my fire dept pager and radio!" and I said "so, what--if there's a fire call are you going to dump me on the side of the road to hitchhike to the hospital while you respond to someone elses emergency? Leave me at the hospital by myself?" he just gave me a dirty look. This year, that situation got brought up again. I tried to exxplain to him how much that hurt and why, that it seemed like I was pretty unimportant to him. His response? "I think the real problem here is that you can't deal with it if you aren't the center of attention."

Wha... .? That's so mind boggling I didn't even know how to respond! That statement to me was even more callous than the original hurtful issue.

Many, many crappy things like this over this long period of marriage have caused me to build up a pretty deep well of unresolved anger and resentment. But recently, this was relieved. How? Talking with my T (who is also stbx's T) I explained to him how resentful it made me feel that H was so cold and indifferent to me. When he calls his old college friends, he's warm, effusive, talkative, friendly, happy. As soon as he hangs up, he's cold and indifferent, can't think of anything to say to me (ever). So T says "let me ask you something... .how often does he call these old college friends?" The lightbulb started to go off already. He calls them less than once a year. Then T points out "and he thinks these are very close friendships, doesn't he?" Yes--yes he does. T asked me "do you have close friends? Do you talk to them more often than that?" Yes, of course. Then he says what is starting to dawn on me by then: that H is capable of imitating social interaction--and even occasionally actually feeling it--but only irregularly. In fact, not very often at all. But intimate relationships require genuine and sincere emotional interaction--every day. H is not capable of that. he's not just being rude or callous or mean. He is NOT CAPABLE of genuine and sincere emotional interaction.

Realizing the truth of this rolled the load off my shoulders. It's true--he CAN'T do it. Sure, the bipolar makes it a bit different than just regular old BPD, but not that much. The bipolar makes him more withdrawn, but the PD's make him incapable of genuine and sincere emotional interaction that is required for a healthy intimate relationship. This actually kind of put the onus back on me--what exactly am I doing trying to have a (long term!) relationship with someone incapable of adult emotional interaction? And how much "good" has it done me to be angry and resentful at him for being incapable?

Bipolars can be more withdrawn because of the depression. But BPD's (any PD's really) have overwhelming and immature emotions. And what makes it BPD to begin with is their refusal to admit that--they project it onto someone else instead in order to preserve their fragile and immature self image (at ANY cost). A very young child is not capable of sympathising with your adult situations and need for genuine and sincere support. If they can even acknowledge it at all, it's only in terms of how it effects themselves--they get scared and cry and you end up having to support them. How is this much different than a BPD? Some of them are emotionally immature at the level of, say, a teenager. But many are emotionally immature to the level of a very young child. And what would be the point of being angry at a young child for not being supportive of your emotional needs? I'm not making up excuses for the BPD's behavior--it is, after all, their responsibility to grow and mature like the rest of us. But they aren't going to. Period. Take it or leave it.

It was freeing for me to understand this. Yes, I chose to "leave it" rather than "take it" (well, after 18 years anyway). Understanding it doesn't mean we excuse it.
Logged

We must come to know we are more than anyone's opinion--including our own
vegasbaby
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Relationship status: Single
Posts: 182



« Reply #10 on: December 24, 2012, 04:22:47 AM »

never, it was one way traffic full of endless dramas & confrontations going on in his life  under discussion&me providing endless support over. we are surrogate mothers to them its tedious and horrific to be forced into the role awaiting ur turn to voice ur needs which never comes
Logged
HardTruth
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 184


« Reply #11 on: December 24, 2012, 11:29:06 AM »

TemptingFate - How awesome to get quoted!  Thanks for starting this thread!

And thank you for including definitions of compassion.  It really makes you think, doesn't it?  Not only to feel empathy, but inspires a desire to alleviate it... .

My exNPDbf and exBPDbf are both very charming guys.  Very social, have a large social network,and their work depends on that - they are both self-employed.  They have ONE presentation to their friends and associates.  They both have crummy childhoods with themes of abandonment and neglect by both parents.  When it came to being there for me, they both disappeared.  Like DoubleAries expressed, it is their intimate relationship that was difficult for them to manage.  I tried to appeal to their compassion, but to no avail.  To have either the silent treatment (exBPD) or cold face (exNPD) stare back at you is devastating.

Does anyone here know who John Gottman is?  Author, psychologist.  My sister told me he says that what determines a happy relationship where both parties are satisfied, is how often "bids for affection" are met.  Bids for affection can be something big, like supporting someone through grad school... .or something small, like responding to a glance or a hug... or in-between, like being present and engaged during their partner's birthday.  Anyway, if there is a high degree to which bids for affection are met in the relationship, both parties feel happy and satisfied, and will likely have a long, stable relationship.  If not, one or both parties will be unhappy, more likely leading to a separation.

Here is a link that gives a summary - www.passion101.com/blog/2011/04/do-you-turn-towards-turn-away-or-turn-against/

When she told me this, years ago, I started thinking about it.  I had been raised to not cause any trouble, do good in school, follow the rules.  My mom is asian and my dad is american, so there is definitely that submissive, Husband makes the rules and wife and kids follow and serve him, situation.  

By the time I found my counselor in 2004, I didn't even realize that I was a doormat.  It was so a part of me, that I didn't see it.  I was a very good co-dependant, and highly tuned to the moods and needs of my SO, and others in my environment.  When my needs, which were few!, didn't get met... I made excuses in my mind.  Focused on the sweet things that my SO did, like TemptingFate, and thought that meant they cared about me.  That I could infer that if I REALLY needed them, they would be there... .

I have come to see that that isn't true.  I think what John Gottman says is very true.  I have now started to raise my bottom line - when I call my bf, does he call me back? or is it - I will if I feel like it... .When I have something to talk about, is he engaged with me?  Is there a real change that happens as a result of the talk?... .When I'm sick, does he want to come and spend time with me?  Offer to bring food?  Or does he say, Oh, you're sick... .I don't want to get sick... .see ya in a few days... .

My exBPD was so charming and sweet, good about initiating contact and returning it.  It wasn't until he turned me Black that it all changed.  So, I think, the honeymoon period is just that.  What is the person like a year into the relationship?

When I was in yoga class the other day, they played this mantra - Bhaja Govinda.  It was so lovely, that when I got home, I did an internet search to see if I could find out anything about it.  Apparently, it is a very old and popular mantra.  One interpretation of the mantra is this:

"When intelligence matures and lodges securely in the heart, it becomes wisdom. When that wisdom is integrated with life and issues out in action, it becomes devotion. May we all live with the heart of devotion."  

I think compassion is a sister to devotion.  I think about that first part, "when intelligence matures and lodges securely in the heart".  This seems to be a difficult part with BPD... .
Logged
bpdspell
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Relationship status: Married.
Posts: 892


« Reply #12 on: December 24, 2012, 11:40:54 AM »

The further out I get, the more I see those little gestures were just kind of snigglets to do what had to be done to keep up a pretense of caring... .to keep me around, to make me think he cared.  Some of those... the hair clips, or diet cokes in the mornign from McD's, an OCCASIONAL nice dinner out... .was just some sort of pretense.  ... .there was a payoff to him, either implicit or explicit.

I think of some of that stuff as almost emotional blackmail. Doing just enough nice things so that you'll stick around a little longer.  Paying you in word/deed/material thing to think that they really did care... .going through the motions of a real relationship... .cuz otherwise, lets face it, if they treated us horribly most of the time and never did anything nice at all even WE, the dug in committed ones would leave.

THIS.

I always had the intrinsic feeling that the ex was motivated to do a few nice things to give the appearance of being reciprocal and caring. His actions certainly never felt authentic, heartfelt, genuine or sincere. Whenever he did something for me it felt more like an empty "fill in the blank" dubious gesture. His motivation to display kindness always felt like it was about him and driven by his need to appear caring. But we all know that glib superficial charm doesn't hold up well in the long run. I don't believe he's a heartless bhit; just phony to the nines. I now understand it's the disorder of their narcissism and stunted child thinking. How can they really ever be there for you when how they relate to others is really all about them: their needs, their wants, their emptiness... .and objectifying you to serve their needs?

Make no bones about it the relationship was never about mature adult reciprocity. It is structured & designed to be lopsided. If they are true BPD it's about you meeting their needs and fulfilling their emptiness. You're the replacement caretaker, you're the surrogate parent, you're the one who's supposed to unconditionally love them when they act out, you're the perfect no questions asked provider, you're the one doing cart wheels through a circus ring on fire to make them happy, you're the one in essence that needs to be controlled while we do their bidding.  In the meantime we shrink & shirk our needs until we realize how ridiculous we're being to ourselves. We're hurting because we want them to do something that we aren't aware that they aren't capable of doing. It's painful to us that they don't get it. It feels intentional, malicious. The selfishness and self-centeredness is incomprehensible.

When we begin to rebuff or start scratching our heads at the imbalance is when World War Six breaks out. The cheating, the triangulation (read definition), the silent treatment all because we dare to desire some reciprocity. Boy they sure do know how to punish don't they. Smiling (click to insert in post)

They cannot be there for you because they're disordered. It isn't personal. Anyone's who's close will get the same treatment. My ex couldn't be there for me because he was incapable of seeing the world beyond his own nose.

Spell

Logged
oletimefeelin
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 351


« Reply #13 on: December 24, 2012, 02:18:35 PM »

Not very often.  Of course, she needed help more than I did.  While in joyful limbo, I asked her to help me with something.  Mostly because she's very thorough but later I understood it as my test.  Weeks went by with it just sitting on her desk.  During a more detailed conversation, she referenced my rarely expressing my own needs.  She had a point for sure.  However, I pointed to this one thing as a smaller example of a larger point.  When we got home, she did it and did it extremely well, which is why I asked in the first place. 

That's just it.  If they were able to consistently deliver, well, few of us would be here right now.
Logged
myself
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 3151


« Reply #14 on: December 24, 2012, 02:24:46 PM »

I have to say, this is one of those threads that triggered me. So many examples came to mind, it was startling. This stuff goes in there pretty deep in my situation, and really shows where the fork in the road was. Was she 'there' for me? Was she even THERE? The last time she and I were still together, I cried to her about how she wasn't. Seeing her lack of concern, and coldness, while she denied intentionally hurting me, minutes after having admitted she had done that very thing, was the lightbulb going off for the thousandth time and the light was so intense I staggered away into NC.

Thinking back to last Christmas, and a few other times as well, yes, she gave some wonderful thoughtful and personal gifts. It would make me think she really knew me, really cared. Spending all that time to find the proper present? Who wouldn't appreciate that? Then I'd think, spending all that time on stuff that two seconds later didn't mean anything to her, the sentiments washed away in bouts of yelling and put-downs, withholdings of affection, when she could have spent some time bettering herself and really working on helping our relationship, which would have lasted longer and been a better 'gift'... .I'm not saying this very well. Could write a million word essay about this and it still would barely scratch the surface. TOO much evidence. Case closed.

Bleh.   I don't even want to write about it. Had to walk away from the computer last night to get away from this subject (guess what? It followed me). It's a great one to discuss, there's so much to it and so many of us can relate, but     it gets in there to where it really all broke off and, yeah, she wasn't really there for me or my feelings. Still isn't, and looks like she never will. All those times she had me proving myself to her (I went along with it), for US, and it all comes down to it's really just about her? Disorder or not, how you treat people is how you treat people, and that's on you. Buying gifts to cover up the emptiness and pain is just that, a cover-up, and that's not what a healthy relationship is made of. We're better off being here for Ourselves.
Logged
OutsidetheHermitWalls

*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Relationship status: Divorced 2012
Posts: 41



« Reply #15 on: December 24, 2012, 02:45:29 PM »

On my god what a perfect post.  My BPD wife leaves me, no notice sends divorce paperwork no notice.  I pay her car payment, I assume she has it set up for our joint account, I am on the lien, she is not working, I was going to pay the car payment until she was anyways; why would I think she would set it up to her personal bank account.  So when the fiancé company told me they could not take payment from my personal account, but that there was an account already set up; I said sure take it.  We were late.  Her translation:  i set up an illegal account and now she can't trust me.  I am on the lien, I am paying the bill what the. ----from there is just got worst her final text back in Oct.  keep in mind she had already left and sent divorce papers with NO notice; no phone conversation, only mandated texts.  She states "every time you go into one of my accounts you push me farther and farther away, I would have had a conversation with you if you were not so controlling; you have destroyed everything, please do not contact me unless I initiate."  That was on Oct. 19th my response was directed by my therapist:  I will honor all your requests and I am sorry" we are now done, settlement signed.  I took the girl to France we had a 10 bedroom chateau to ourselves we saw Paris, but for the whole honeymoon, she was a spectator.  I would drive 9 hrs to some city, I would be grumpy, and all I got is look how I treat her.  How at times I just wanted her to put her arms around me and tell me let's not drive so far, you are trying to do to much.  But screw me I guess that was my job, I am not allowed to expect anything from her.  Amazing how over a 12 month period I was brainwashed into thinking give give give and be because I would do it imperfectly, I would get a little more than a passionate love making under shooting stars.  That is not why I married her, but that is what I settled for.  God please put me in a place moving forward where I see I am worth more... .
Logged
Seb
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 222


« Reply #16 on: December 24, 2012, 02:45:57 PM »

In retrospect, rarely. Someone should have slapped me when I uttered, "she treats me to things and I look after her emotionally".

When I went through the traumatic experience of telling my family, that at 29 I now had a girlfriend and I was in love, she was nowhere to be seen. In fact that very night she was gallivanting around London with her brother, still firmly stuck in the closet. She was the 'gay' one after all!  Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)  I text her to say I'd done it, and what relief I felt, and call me ASAP. Did she? No. It was late and I'll call you tomorrow. I'd gone through this terrifying, life-changing experience, for her, for us, and she was nowhere to be seen. She couldn't call me because her brother couldn't know who I was. All I wanted that night was to speak to her, to hear her voice but she didn't care. Had it been the other way around I'd have done everything I could have to be there for her and support her.

So was she there for me? Never. I don't think she asked how I was the entire time we were together. I was sold so easily with words. It's been a real lesson for me.

Here's to a happy and healthy 2013. This place has been my lifesaver  
Logged
vegasbaby
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Relationship status: Single
Posts: 182



« Reply #17 on: December 24, 2012, 05:32:28 PM »

doublearies & BPDspell brilliant posts. uve really helped me see the futility of wondering how my BPD was soo callous he wasnt he just isnt capable of being there for anyone. thanks guys, even though i know this how u guys have said it has hammered it home - best xmas pressie this year - cheers Smiling (click to insert in post)
Logged
doubleAries
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Parent
Relationship status: married to a bipolar with psychotic features (paranoid delusions), with strong ASPD and NPD traits (diagnosed)
Posts: 1124


the key to my destiny is me


« Reply #18 on: December 24, 2012, 07:46:50 PM »

It does seem worth saying that we can't have it both ways. We can't say the BPD's are completely and utterly self centered, and at the same time, say they are plotting out these ways to hurt us. Just because we are hurt doesn't mean it was a thought out intentional act on their part. Especially since they're so self centered.

What supposedly makes us different is the capability of insight and introspection. We must remember that and utilize that tool as much as possible. Because there is another part to this story. I have many, many, many examples (18 years is a long time) of him not being there for me--in big ways or small ones. But the other part of this story is WHY DID I CONTINUE ON? Why did I keep trying to make a relationship (genuine and sincere emotional interaction) where none existed? THAT'S the only part of this movie I can change or do something about.

By it's very nature, self centeredness rules out calculating hurtfulness. After all, it is the flippant disregard for ourselves that is so hurtful to us, is it not? The lack of mutuality. Yes, they can imitate at times this sincere emotional interaction. But in the end, it is our own wish to believe, our own attraction to fairy tale, that betrays us. We ignore the red flags. We overlook the warning signs. We Justify, Argue, Defend and Explain them and ourselves. Then we are surprised and hurt when the truth finally slaps us into embarrassed reality. Again--no excuses for the BPD's. But personally I'm am sick of repeating this pattern over and over, continuing to find myself attracted to emotionally unavailable/incapable people. That means I have to change something about myself.

Logged

We must come to know we are more than anyone's opinion--including our own
Blessed0329
***
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 189



« Reply #19 on: December 24, 2012, 09:12:04 PM »

My ex finally broke down and initiated contact with me today. He was feeling very sorry for himself and very lonely, and not just because today is Christmas Eve. Today is also the one year anniversary of the death of his father in law, so everyone's attention is on his wife, and his son, and his mother in law. No one is paying attention to him. Just wow. My response to him was brief and polite, and did not invite more contact. He tried to start something else with me later, but I just ignored him.

No, he was rarely there when I needed him. And he is apparently unable to be there for his wife on a very traumatic day for her.
Logged
Yolo
****
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 257


« Reply #20 on: December 24, 2012, 10:08:20 PM »

Ouch, Blessed, that is a really depressing interaction to have to deal with on this day.

And it is a certainly a test to you because although you feel for him and his situation deeply, you also see what it is about... .and you are trying to now give yourself a gift by being understanding, but not compromising yourself.

Kudos to you! This has and is a real test, a complicated one.  So far you have been graceful to him... .without (and I'm sorry for the directness)... .without accepting the role of emotional tampon.

You should be proud of yourself, you acknowledged him and his feelings as a human... .which is undoubtedly more than he would have given you if the shoe were on the other foot.

Please try to relax and enjoy the last bits of 2012...
Logged
WhisperingGoose

*
Offline Offline

Posts: 26


« Reply #21 on: December 25, 2012, 01:09:26 PM »

"When intelligence matures and lodges securely in the heart, it becomes wisdom. When that wisdom is integrated with life and issues out in action, it becomes devotion. May we all live with the heart of devotion."

I love, love, love this! If your natural ability of empathy is not present the rest just short circuits.

I think my exBPDgf had a powerful desire to be there for me but never was. Like everyone else here my problems were totally eclipsed by the sheer quantity and frequency of her issues and her need to pull me into them. However she made many heartfelt statements about wanting to be there for me on my deathbed (my health is fine) and wanting to be the one I called if ever in trouble and so on.

Instead of being there she impeded my ability to naturally process my own emotions in a healthy way (understatement). She saw a moment of extreme emotional vulnerability in me, and then she brought the full power of her emotional manipulation to bear. Upon reflection I am unable to conclude what her level of consciousness is at any given time but it is undeniable that she attempted to inflect grave emotional harm on me at the time she perceived me to be the most vulnerable and easy to harm. I have learned not to project intentions on her actions, malice of forethought, but it is logically certain that she knew I was vulnerable and her actions and words were, in timing and content, as harmful and injurious as they could have been under the circumstances.

So was she ever really there for me? No she was not.

Logged
HardTruth
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 184


« Reply #22 on: December 25, 2012, 11:36:37 PM »

BlueHorizon - I have had a couple ex's tell me some good stories and make promises about how they were going to be there, but surprise surprise, it's a lot easier to say those things than to do them!  Sure, there can be sincere thought behind it, an impulse of empathy, but the action was sorely missing.  Like TF said, compassion is empathy plus inspired action to alleviate the suffering.

When I look back and evaluate my ex's on this, I think to myself, how much were they behind what they said?  20%? 95%? 5%?... . Literally, with the disordered ones, the answer was 5%.  The proof is in the pudding, so to speak.  I'm not seeing any pudding... . 

So, the one ex I'm thinking of right now, who was an NPD, stepped up and promised me he'd be there at 3 really important points in our 1.5 year relationship.  He held my hand, looked me in the eyes... .I thought, Wow!  I finally got a great guy...  At these three points I didn't ask him to step up, he offered!  And guess what?  At each point, that's when he turned his back on me.  The second time it happened, we were supposed to be getting back together.  Instead of meeting me, he hooked up with a woman he knew, who was 14 years younger than he was, and whisked her off to a overnight at the beach and then for a night at his house.  Ugh.  I can't tell you how sick this made me.  He didn't even have the decency to call me back when I asked, where are you?  I thought we were getting together tonight... .".  

It really just blows your mind.  Set you up just to drop you.  My exBPDbf did this sort of thing to me as well, after he turned me black.  

My other boyfriends were not disordered, they were NPD's or non-PD's, probably had 70-95% behind what they promised me.  

It's amazing how good they can fake you out.  How it can seem so real.  But the consistency, integrity, and COMPASSION seems to be in low supply.  

And the only way you find out, is that when you think they're going to be there, they're not!  So, you buy their excuses or make up some of your own.  And then it happens again... .and again... .and finally you start to see that there's a pattern...

I'm not thinking that pattern's gonna change any time soon.  I think, sure, she wanted to be there for you.  As long as it wasn't going to be any trouble.  And as long as it meant you could still focus 100% on her... .

So sorry about your dog, btw!
Logged
Tausk
Formerly "Schroeder's Piano"
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 843


« Reply #23 on: December 26, 2012, 12:33:58 AM »

It's the combination of the mirroring and being lost in the interaction that fooled me.  Since I was mirrored and then lost, I assumed that my ex would process in a similar manner as me.  that compassion and support and empathy would be second nature.  And in the beginning there were what seemed to be moments or real support.  But I realize now it was part of the script.

My ex was a terrified three year old in the prison of a living nightmare.  Empathy, compassion, support were never developed in her.  

I remember during one argument when I was sick with a cold, I said that I wish that I had a partner who might want to take care of me when I was ill rather then feel insecure and need to get into an argument with me.  She just sat there and looked at me, with what is sometimes described as a "reptilian stare."  At the time time I thought she was being defiant in a manner stating... ."I will not take care of you no matter if you argue or even if I should do it."  

What I understand now is that the stare was due to the fact that she didn't have it within her capacity to want to take care of me when I was sick.  All she could do was feel insecure and need reassurance.  It wasn't that she wouldn't take care of me at that moment, she couldn't.  It's the same as asking a scared two year old to think about you, instead of herself when she is in a moment of terror.  NOT possible.

I now know that it was the same thought process that kept her from supporting me when other family members were ill and needed my support,  or when i was emotionally stressed and wanted her to sacrifice and support me.  

But i was never a victim and it was never her fault.  It would be like asking an autistic child to support me during times of emotional crisis or stress.

in my arrogance,  although i didn't really understand what was happening, I thought i did and didn't look for other answers that might have made things better.



So in the end it was me who didn't support her during these times, because it was me asking more from her than she could provide and then becoming upset when she didn't provide the requested support.

And in the end, I hurt her more by asking more than she could give and making her feel shame and confusion when she couldn't provide.


The question is why did I end up in such an interaction, why did continually accept less than I wanted, why did I think I could change what could be offered me, and why did I stay around.

I was never a victim.  I was the one supposedly without the disorder.   I was the supposedly knowing "adult".  

Yet in the end, it was me who selfishly asked for more than could be provided.

in self honestly

SP
Logged
HardTruth
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 184


« Reply #24 on: December 26, 2012, 12:54:57 AM »

I completely agree with you, SP.  I look back at some of those things and ask, how and why did I stay in those relationships for so long?  And the pain that I still felt years after it was over.  Why did it take so long to heal?  Such good questions.

"3yo in the  prison of a living nightmare"... It is hard to imagine what this feels like from their point of view.  My exBPDbf attempted suicide by shooting himself in the chest.  It was not a call for help.  It was meant to be the end.  I really feel like it was divine intervention that he survived.

Having had suicidal thoughts in the past, but never the intention to go through with it, I can only imagine how bad he must feel.  I wouldn't wish how I felt on anyone.  I waited, minute by excruciating minute sometimes, for night to come so I could fall asleep and have some peace... . 

My exBPDbf said that before that event, he tried to talk to people and reach out to them, but he ended up just feeling alone.  How SAD is that?  

And when true affection, regardless of what the outcome of the relationship was going to be, was offered to him, he couldn't accept it.  He couldn't just sit there and soak up the warmth or the connection.  Instead he just ran to be alone, again.
Logged
WhisperingGoose

*
Offline Offline

Posts: 26


« Reply #25 on: December 26, 2012, 11:42:02 AM »

HT,

"sure, she wanted to be there for you.  As long as it wasn't going to be any trouble.  And as long as it meant you could still focus 100% on her... "   exactly, thank you.

SP,

"And in the end, I hurt her more by asking more than she could give and making her feel shame and confusion when she couldn't provide."

That is some deep, hard truth.  I'm struggling to understand the implications of this.  It seems it's often the case where it's not so much me asking anything of her however but the situation calls for her action and she knows it and she wants to be or believes she is able to be there for me, or anyone.  Or perhaps she is mirroring me, she mirrors what she knows I would do but the mirror is unable to reflect emotional support and there is a breakdown.  She lives with great guilt over not being there for her children having been somewhat estranged*.  It would follow that being there would be a strong trigger in the rs.  I'm seeing some new connections here that may take time to sort.  It's complex.

I marvel at the powerful minds on this forum.
Logged
Tausk
Formerly "Schroeder's Piano"
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 843


« Reply #26 on: December 26, 2012, 04:01:22 PM »

 It seems it's often the case where it's not so much me asking anything of her however but the situation calls for her action and she knows it and she wants to be or believes she is able to be there for me, or anyone.  Or perhaps she is mirroring me, she mirrors what she knows I would do but the mirror is unable to reflect emotional support and there is a breakdown.  She lives with great guilt over not being there for her children having been somewhat estranged*.  It would follow that being there would be a strong trigger in the rs.  I'm seeing some new connections here that may take time to sort.  It's complex.

BH:  Poster '2010' has stated that pwBPD don't feel guilt as much as shame.  Guilt is how we feel about our actions, Shame is how we feel about ourselves.  Guilt is a higher order function that also implies the ability for self reflection, self awareness and self responsibility.  These functions may not be found in a pwBPD.  I know that my ex didn't have them.  It's not that she didn't know the difference between right and wrong, and it's not that she didn't want to do the right thing, but she didn't have the capacity, in her current state of mind, to actually carry out the actions of a responsible adult.

All she could do under duress was survival behavior that was in essence the selfish acts of a terrified three year old.  And in the end, she felt shame about herself, but not guilt about her actions.  Subtle but very important difference.  And just as importantly, without guilt and remorse, there can not be the insight or awareness for change.  And nothing ever changed with my ex.  The same transgressions occurred over and over.

But this fact, doesn't mean that my ex's actions were acceptable or right.  It doesn't mean that I forgive her, because she hasn't asked forgiveness. It doesn't mean that i will ever accept such a lack of respect or awareness of my needs or boundaries again.  

It means that I have to look at why I did not really understand the actual dynamics of my interaction with my ex, why I accepted so much a loss of self respect, and why I ended up participating in such a toxic interaction.

And then to realize that I deserve better because, I did the work and am a better person for having done the work.  

And to have compassion for my ex, because she's still the same.

in peace

SP
Logged
WhisperingGoose

*
Offline Offline

Posts: 26


« Reply #27 on: December 26, 2012, 05:30:58 PM »

SP, roger 100% on the guilt and shame.  She mimicked those abilities and transposed those words until now I'm transposing them.  It is an important distinction and it takes a subtle mind mind to Know it.  Guilt is a state of consciousness or understanding necessitating correction or intention, and shame is an emotional state which in this case leads to error since there is nowhere for it to go.  Guilt is a processing of shame and may lead to forgiveness, compassion or resolution.  Conciousness and awareness of self lead to intention and action.  Emotional states are experienced and we choose (or not) how they influence higher order consciousness, or the meaning they will have in the story of our lives.  My ex did lack certain higher order functions, in stark way I discovered.  I tried to study this in real time during the rs but it's hard to be a scientist in a war zone.  Particularly remorse and empathy were absent thus repeating the same offenses also. 

I could catalogue many more but the best understanding will come when I can distill it down to a single universal concept.  I think it may be self-consciousness.  (aha moment here)  All the traits that rely on sophisticated self-consciousness or self-awareness perhaps would be absent.  The first leap in higher order self-consciousness after infancy I believe occurs around 7 yrs with another around 14 yrs.  It may be interesting to explore what traits are dependant on this level of self-consciousness and hold them up against the BPD profile.  It helps me understand the incomprehensible-ness of BPD. I'm just brainstorming a little.

As for my choices to stay, I know why I said I was doing it and what I told myself to allow something that was otherwise intollerable.  I still need to explore the deeper implications though.  There is a self-image thing there I think that I'm having difficulty unpacking.

Gratitude.
Logged
Seahorse1
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 278



« Reply #28 on: December 26, 2012, 05:41:48 PM »

This discussion breaks my heart in two.

My bf has been very supportive, compassionate, and extremely selfless in regards to being there for me... .That's what makes things so bitter sweet... .He has been my best friend, my Allie, even my rescuer... .But... .And it's a big but, it doesn't take away all the bad stuff... .No need to elaborate on the bad stuff as we all have our own miriade of stories.

It just breaks my heart because part of him is more than I could ever want or imagine in a partner, but then there's always that damn BPD behavior.
Logged
Seb
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 222


« Reply #29 on: December 26, 2012, 07:28:26 PM »

This discussion breaks my heart in two.

My bf has been very supportive, compassionate, and extremely selfless in regards to being there for me... .That's what makes things so bitter sweet... .He has been my best friend, my Allie, even my rescuer... .But... .And it's a big but, it doesn't take away all the bad stuff... .No need to elaborate on the bad stuff as we all have our own miriade of stories.

It just breaks my heart because part of him is more than I could ever want or imagine in a partner, but then there's always that damn BPD behavior.

Same here really, my exgf was everything I had ever wanted (or at first appeared to be). My exgf was sometimes great at the little things - she always wanted to spoil me and take me to dinner. That was her way of showing me she cared. After I came back from a hardcore week of snowboarding she wanted to look after me and ran me a radox bath so I could relax while she cooked. When she wasn't triggered she was so great at the little things. BUT emotionally supportive, in the way I needed her as a partner? ... .very very rarely. I'm sure she tried but she just couldn't do it. She didn't know how to support me in a mutual way. I'm an illustrator and when I had deadlines and was feeling stressed she would have no understanding of what I was feeling. She couldn't understand how I had needs too. She couldn't understand why I felt uneasy with her constantly texting/emailing/skyping exes. She was great in so many ways, but like you said, if only it wasn't for the small issue of BPD.
Logged
HardTruth
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 184


« Reply #30 on: January 03, 2013, 12:27:52 AM »

I keep coming back to this thread, and the definition of compassion - empathy for another's distress coupled with a desire to alleviate it.

The night before my exBPDbf broke up with me, he curled up with me all night as usual.  I had a little bit of a cough still, and when I woke him up with it, he hugged me and asked me if I wanted some water.  

When we woke up in the morning, we tried to have sex, but couldn't because he has erectile dysfunction.  That is when he turned me black.  While holding me curled up in his arms, he told me how it was my fault.  Then he jumped up and said he had to get the dog out of the car and take him for a walk.

When he came back, I still had tears in my eyes.  He didn't acknowledge anything while we drove to breakfast and had been sitting there for 1/2 an hour with him happily chatting.  Then he put his hand over my hand and said, I'm sorry I hurt you.  

But said nothing to ease the hurt.  And went on with eating his breakfast.  Then wanted to run an errand after breakfast... .  

After we got back, he told me how my body wasn't right, my touch was bad, etc etc... .  completely the opposite of what he told me for the last two months, of course.  But the most interesting thing about it, was his complete lack of desire or ability to soften the blow at all!  

You know, if I was going to give a guy the hard truth about how his ED (erectile dysfunction) was affecting my enjoyment of our sex life, I can't imagine offering it without saying something to counter it - like you have a great touch, I really like kissing you, etc. It would just be so MEAN to tear a guy down like that.

It was weird how there seemed to be this "sorry-ness" in hurting me, yet NO desire or impulse to counter it at all.  Kind of a coldness, or matter-of-fact-ness, actually.  At the end he said, Thanks for taking this so well.  Ha!  Actually, I was in complete shock, and unable to react much at all!

What is it that makes us feel loved?  Lots of things, but one is that someone reaches out when they see our pain, and tries to comfort us.  

It was weird how this was completely absent.  And the most PSYCHO part of it, is that he seemed like such an empathetic person!  Yet, when faced, eye to eye with a person he was causing pain to, had no sense of connection to me that way.  Could offer me a glass of water for my cough, though.  That didn't have emotional content, however!

Ideally, for people in an intimate relationship, empathy naturally inspires compassion. It's called emotional rapport.  This was more like a one-sided conversation.

When the baby cries, the mother comes and comforts him.  She feels his angst, and wants to ease it, impulsively.  When he laughs, she laughs too.  His joy is her joy. They mirror each other, and feel and respond to each other's emotions.

When my exBPDbf was an infant, his mother had major depression.  When he cried, she gave him coldness.  She probably handed him off to somebody else and said, Sorry, you take him cuz he's crying.

How sad, huh?

How many times did your BPD say they were sorry? (if you even got that) but did nothing to make amends... .  And how did that make you feel?  It just isn't enough, is it?

This thread has made me look closer at the emotional rapport I had with my exBPD and others in the past.  I don't think you can really see what someone's capacity for emotional RESPONSE is until you get to know them.  Cuz you can get fooled at the beginning, like I did.
Logged
nonhere
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 189



« Reply #31 on: January 03, 2013, 09:08:13 AM »

I remember during one argument when I was sick with a cold, I said that I wish that I had a partner who might want to take care of me when I was ill rather then feel insecure and need to get into an argument with me.  She just sat there and looked at me, with what is sometimes described as a "reptilian stare."  At the time time I thought she was being defiant in a manner stating... .  "I will not take care of you no matter if you argue or even if I should do it."  

What I understand now is that the stare was due to the fact that she didn't have it within her capacity to want to take care of me when I was sick.  All she could do was feel insecure and need reassurance.  It wasn't that she wouldn't take care of me at that moment, she couldn't.  It's the same as asking a scared two year old to think about you, instead of herself when she is in a moment of terror.  NOT possible.

Brilliant post, SP!

I experienced that same moment of realisation.  It was when the penny really dropped.  When I saw that look on her face, and saw the depth of terror she was in, that I'd placed her in by gently, but firmly, demanding some acknowledgment that she'd hurt me.  I'd done this with every bit of skill and imagination I had available to me as an empathetic, emotionally capable 40-year-old.  I prepared myself as I would for the hardest performance of my life.  I meditated and got myself into a frame of mind where I truly didn't feel anger - where I felt capable of asking for this acknowledgment but at the same time reassuring her that I didn't hate her.  With all this deployed, with the determination not to hurt her, with everything in me trying to reassure her that I wished her no harm; with me just asking, calmly, for her to just see the effect of what she'd done on me... .  

I got that terrified, reptilian stare.

And realised there was nothing I could do.  This was way bigger than me.  I was ripped in two afterwards.  I had to make an immediate call to a good friend the moment I parted company from the BPDex, to help me process all this.  I occupied that friend's ear for a good 4 hours.  I'm grateful to her; at the same time, I know that the horror of what I saw justified every second of that support I was asking for.

There's a simile for what our relationship was like that I came up with shortly before that final episode.  From a game of cards: I called it "emotional trumping".  :)oesn't matter what card I play (what's happening to me), her suit is trumps.  My mother is having surgery for cancer?  I think that's an Ace.  But she's in a particular mood, or needs/feels like talking about something of her own at that moment; she puts down her 2, and because it's _her_ suit (trumps), I have to shut up.

Thank God that was all 18 months ago!
Logged
armsreach

*
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 29



« Reply #32 on: January 03, 2013, 10:28:09 AM »

Rarely was he "there" for me. It's sad to think about all the times I wanted/needed him to be there, but I realize now that he wasn't capable of being there. That's a huge realization in itself for me.
Logged
WhisperingGoose

*
Offline Offline

Posts: 26


« Reply #33 on: January 03, 2013, 12:22:39 PM »

"When the baby cries, the mother comes and comforts him.  She feels his angst, and wants to ease it, impulsively.  When he laughs, she laughs too.  His joy is her joy. They mirror each other, and feel and respond to each other's emotions."

This got me thinking.  When the mother cries the baby cries too but the baby doesn't recognize the source of his sadness.  He feels the mother's emotion but probably mistakes it for his own or otherwise misappropriates or doesn't appropriate it's source due to a limited self-awareness.  We leave the room or don't express emotions so as to not upset the baby.

This was how it was to walk on eggs with my BPDxgf.  If I got upset she got upset so I didn't get upset.  Perhaps when we have a real and apparent need for emotional support and they are aware of it an issue will materialize to "trump" that need so there will be an internal explanation for the emotions the pwBPD is experiencing.  Or the emotion they are experiencing, which is coming from their undevloped empathetic response, finds an event or narrative to exist within.  Perhaps they are experiencing our emotions at times as though through empathy but dressing them up as their own. 
Logged
charred
*******
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 1206



« Reply #34 on: January 03, 2013, 02:01:27 PM »

My knee jerk reaction to the question of how often was my pwBPD there for me when I needed them was to think "A lot"... but then I thought about it. My exBPDgf was very supportive of me during my divorce (which she wanted me to get) so that I could be with her... and she was consistent, and made me think she was a rock/good person. However, outside of that... she was always having a bigger issue (trumping me)... and turning things around to make me feel I was not supportive enough.

I thought she supported me when I got a nasty nasty sunburn before going to see her... but thinking back, she called her best friend (a nurse) and the friend came and did everything. After the fact my exBPDgf brought it up constantly as an example of how she was always there for me and I wasn't for her. The burn was nasty, 2nd degree, all over shoulders/back... had on tshirt, was in shade under a giant umbrella watching daughter swim in pool and felt tingling... next morning had big blisters all over... sister is nurse and said I should have been in a burn unit... but the friend of the exBPDgf did the right stuff and I recovered.

I have seen an amazing amount of contempt and lack of empathy from my pwBPD. She seems to think out what she needs to do to show empathy at times... its awkward, overkill and comes off phony... when she knows she will need to show it (like funerals, visits to sick people, etc.) But the off the cuff responses, especially if she is at all pissed at someone... .  you would think she was a total sociopath, dead eyes, no mercy. I think witnessing that a number of times  Red flag/bad  (click to insert in post)  , is what kept me from marrying her and wanting to be sure r/s was right... and it was not. Glad for that small bit of sense.
Logged
charred
*******
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 1206



« Reply #35 on: January 03, 2013, 02:17:31 PM »

When we woke up in the morning, we tried to have sex, but couldn't because he has erectile dysfunction.

... .  

After we got back, he told me how my body wasn't right, my touch was bad, etc etc... .  completely the opposite of what he told me for the last two months, of course.  But the most interesting thing about it, was his complete lack of desire or ability to soften the blow at all!  

You know, if I was going to give a guy the hard truth about how his ED (erectile dysfunction) was affecting my enjoyment of our sex life, I can't imagine offering it without saying something to counter it - like you have a great touch, I really like kissing you, etc. It would just be so MEAN to tear a guy down like that.

It was weird how there seemed to be this "sorry-ness" in hurting me, yet NO desire or impulse to counter it at all.  Kind of a coldness, or matter-of-fact-ness, actually.  At the end he said, Thanks for taking this so well.  Ha!  Actually, I was in complete shock, and unable to react much at all!

Ideally, for people in an intimate relationship, empathy naturally inspires compassion. It's called emotional rapport.  This was more like a one-sided conversation.

... .  

When my exBPDbf was an infant, his mother had major depression.  When he cried, she gave him coldness.  She probably handed him off to somebody else and said, Sorry, you take him cuz he's crying.

How sad, huh?

How many times did your BPD say they were sorry? (if you even got that) but did nothing to make amends... .  And how did that make you feel?  It just isn't enough, is it?

Wow... hits on a lot of things for me. I had ED with my exBPDgf a few times... and at the time she seemed a bit sympathetic... but my reason for ED was the gut feeling I was being manipulated by her via sex... and once that thought was in my head I couldn't do it. More interesting to me... she also did nothing to help, but at the time didn't say anything. From then on any time she was mad and looking to insult me jabs about being limp were involved. To me, I loved her and sex was an expression of love in our relationship, and I would not intentionally do anything hurtful... to her, I think sex was something you do like washing dishes, and it had no meaning or significance as an indication of where we stood in our r/s. She could turn on/off her desire in a split second depending on what she wanted, and that didn't ever sit right for me. For me sex was a barometer of the relationship... if we were happy, we wanted to, if not we didn't... the r/s came first. Seeing sex as a control tactic soured me on sex with her for some time.

We had issues and were going to get back together and she had me agreeing to sell my house, and move away from my exwife and daughter and close to her... then when I was to see her... she didn't show and went NC... so I decided that was it, and haven't relented, went NC myself... then she flipped out wanting to get back together... but I suspect it was because she wasn't in control of getting dumped and if we got back together she would build us up till I was commited/hooked and then pull rug out. As I think the BPD is in ways almost like NPD or a sociopathic disorder... there is no empathy, they feel emotions strongly and when you disagree with them they over react, feel hatred, and feel justified in doing whatever they want because you are a bad person. Its ridiculous... for an adult, but pretty normal for a 3 yr old. When was a 3 yr old there for you when you needed?
Logged
OTH
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Relationship status: Single
Posts: 2307


It's not too late to make better choices


« Reply #36 on: January 03, 2013, 02:20:21 PM »

My ex didn't work. There were a few days I had to stay overnight at work. Every time it resulted in a huge blowup after me having to be up all night. Not cool. All about her not being able to be alone. The idea that I would be exhausted and need to go to bed didn't even cross her mind.
Logged

Mary Oliver:  Someone I loved gave me a box full of darkness. It took me years to understand that this too, was a gift

HardTruth
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 184


« Reply #37 on: January 03, 2013, 02:24:42 PM »

"you would think she was a total sociopath, dead eyes, no mercy".

I've seen those eyes in my dad, my sister, and my exNPDbf.  I would probably see them in my exBPD if he hadn't disappeared with the cold, stony silent treatment.  I remember in the past not understanding what I saw. Or not believing it.  Now I trust myself and see that that is the truth.

When I was in high school, I got a chemical burn on my eyes from my contact lens solution that took the cornea off of both eyes.  I couldn't see, except for blurs and light.  The optometrist told my mom that he'd never seen anything like that before, didn't know if I'd ever be able to see again, and that she needed to take me to an opthamologist ASAP to see if there was anything that could be done.

She said we needed to ask my dad.  His answer was no.  They said I could just stay home from school.  It was because he didn't want to spend the money.  Although, the reason he gave was that you couldn't trust doctors.  I begged and begged and cried.  The answer was No.  

When I saw those same eyes in my exNPDbf when he finally stopped leading me on and broke up with me permanently cuz he's found a younger women to take my place, I had nightmares for MONTHS.  Woke at 4am every morning seeing those EYES.

Charred - you are so lucky you're not with her any more.  She reminds me of my dad.  It doesn't get any better.  They just fool you sometimes - my exNPD was really good at that.

On a good note, guess what I became?  I doctor! Smiling (click to insert in post)  And my corneas both healed and I got my vision back.
Logged
charred
*******
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 1206



« Reply #38 on: January 03, 2013, 02:29:13 PM »

HardTruth-

You also mentioned bonding with mother... I think the basis in part for BPD and NPD and some of the other PD's goes back to messed up secure attachments with the primary caregiver (mother usually) and when it is fouled up enough you get someone that doesn't feel empathy, that can't handle things like abandonment, etc. In my case I think my exBPDgf love bombed me like the warm caring mother I never had during the idealization phase, and got her hooks in deep, then would bring out the nice loving mother whenever I was drifting too far away ... .  due to all the abuse hurled by her. Being dumped then was devastating ... .  my mom never dumped me, she was present but cold... but having that person that you thought you could love/trust completely, finally, dump you without explanation... .  is life shattering.

I needed my exBPDgf at the time I was dumped... terrifically, and she was not there... not for 20+ yrs when she came around the second time... so I think that kind of covers it from my view. No real empathy... a twinge of sympathy once in a while if they have faced same thing... but its really them remembering that they had issue... and very little addressing hurt unless they feel it is socially required... and then it is so awkward as to seem phony/contrived.
Logged
charred
*******
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 1206



« Reply #39 on: January 03, 2013, 02:43:35 PM »

HardTruth-

Congratulations... being a doctor is the best medicine... you have done well.

My exBPDgf is bad news... you mentioned NPD... and my dad (a doctor) is NPD and I know what you are talking about. Never was denied medical treatment, but the dead eyes, the lack of caring, the actively seeking to harm me... lot of that. I got along okay with him till I was a teenager... and then he seemed to want to compete... he always had to be better than me... no matter what that entailed. He had a VW rabbit, I bought a used 280Z, one comment from someone about my car being sportier the day I got it and he dissapeared, and came back with a Vette roadster. It was funny at the time, but ceased being that way over time. Later it became clear that no one mattered to him but him. I could go on and on, but if you grew up with one you know the hell. Great article on it on www escapeabuse website under NPD.pdf called "what makes a narcissist tick" ... absolutely spot on perfect description of my dad and life with him. In my case I was probably his favorite person in the world... and he made my life hell anyway. God help those he disliked, he was flat out evil.

Twelve years ago I decided to get him out of my life, he tried to cause my wife to have a miscarriage... because he didn't want to be a grandfather, that meant he was old and it might make gals have less interest in him if they knew he was a grandpa. He has never seen his granddaughter in person, and I hope never does. My whole family quit dealing with him after his mother died... they had went along with him for her sake... but they all came to detest him.

Neither of my parents were there when I needed them... .  much at all, and my exBPDgf was just the same, disordered and lacking in empathy.
Logged
HardTruth
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 184


« Reply #40 on: January 03, 2013, 04:26:10 PM »

That is so sad, Charred!  And complete craziness with your dad and the car!  I keep going back to my childhood and looking back on it to try to understand how it is that I'm in the position I am now.  And what I need to do to fix it.

"In my case I think my exBPDgf love bombed me like the warm caring mother I never had during the idealization phase, and got her hooks in deep, ... .  

Being dumped then was devastating ... .  my mom never dumped me, she was present but cold... but having that person that you thought you could love/trust completely, finally, dump you without explanation... .  is life shattering."

I TOTALLY get this!  I can really really relate to it.  It's why I went back to my exNPDbf even after he'd hurt me so badly.  Lucky for me, my exBPD has given me the full-on silent treatment, otherwise I might have let him have another round!  Although being on this site has given me enough clarity that even if in the future he tried to recycle me, it won't work.
Logged
HardTruth
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 184


« Reply #41 on: January 03, 2013, 04:36:32 PM »

You know what else is funny.  My cat got sick a couple years ago.  It was so bad that a vet wouldn't cut it, so I took her to the animal hospital.  It cost me $3700 total.  So, I often tell her, "You're a VERY expensive little cat!  But you're worth every penny!".  I wish my dad valued me as much as I value my cat!

So, my cat loves to watch movies with me, of course Smiling (click to insert in post)  She just curls up and takes a little nap.  So, I got Mommy Dearest cuz I heard it was an example of BPD.  Heck!  My cat got scared while watching the movie!  I have never seen her jump so many times!  Even with Lord of the Rings or whatever!
Logged
HardTruth
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 184


« Reply #42 on: January 03, 2013, 05:00:50 PM »

btw, even when my ex tore me down, I still never - then or since - have brought up the ED.  Even though at the time I thought, Jeez... it's the pot calling the kettle black!  So, if a person ever does that to you, huge  Red flag/bad  (click to insert in post) in my opinion!  Not nice!
Logged
dancinginthelight
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 171



« Reply #43 on: January 03, 2013, 05:32:10 PM »

My ex was certainly very attentive in the early days of the r/s.

I do not sleep very well and rather than wake him up in the middle

of the night, Id come downstairs and lay on the couch.

He would wake up and be alarmed and come looking for his precious one

and be so worried and hug me, stroke my hair. ooh i wish for those days again Smiling (click to insert in post)

One morning I got up very early and popped out to the shop. I did not wake anyone

up as i just wanted to get the shopping in and get back. Within 10 mins or so, my mobile

rang... .  it was him, worried sick and missing me.  He got dressed and hurried down the

street to meet me.  I did not mind. I loved his attention. My ex before him didnt give a ~

about me, i am diabetic and had alot of hypos and i had to struggle downstairs to see to

myself.  I honestly thought he wanted me to die.

But this man, was absolutely wonderful.  He made me a cuppa tea if i asked.  And i cared so

much for him too.  I loved him. And if i got ill, i recovered very quickly as his love was more

potent than any antibiotic  Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)

Towards the end though, when i was ill with flu, diabetic problems or whatever,  all i got was a phone

call from my ex.  he kept away.  didnt seem to care anymore 

Logged
WhisperingGoose

*
Offline Offline

Posts: 26


« Reply #44 on: January 03, 2013, 10:13:11 PM »

My ex never used to appologize for anything, ever.  Accountability is pretty much the issue I focussed on when we split six weeks ago.  She broke nc after christmas, first to extend an invitation from her mother to the big party, fair enough.  I responded cordially and declined.  Then she sent me several emails that were like nothing I have ever heard from her, full of apologies and the accountability I had been asking for.  It's been really hard to stand firm hearing exactly what I need to hear from her.  Could be when she's not triggered by me and the rs her mind clears up.  It's very convincing to hear, however she owes me money she stole from me when I was painted black... .  on several occassions (oops,  Red flag/bad  (click to insert in post) ).  I had made the decision not to consider any words she offered until action was taken toward toward that debt.  Words and actions not matching as you all well know.  So I guess I'm round-filing the most amazing communication I've ever gotten from her.  There is no disagreement whatsoever about this debt either mind you.  She has fully fessed up to the crimes and forgiveness was offered, this last time at least contingent on payments being made toward this debt.  We recycled last fall and there was clear understanding communicated and received that her being in my life was contingent on the promise she made to try and repay.  Not one cent has come to me although I have received many glowing promises and statements of contrition.  Of course it's not about the money, it's about me having the smallest shred of dignity and insisting my friends, after they rob me and steal my money and kick me around a bit, give back the actual cash money they took from me and sort of half-ass appologize before we start merging our thanksgiving plans again.  Oh phooey, I could rant for hours but that money is gone for good.
Logged
HighFunctionBPDw

Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Relationship status: Married
Posts: 6



« Reply #45 on: January 04, 2013, 11:21:59 PM »

This is not really my place to comment here as someone with BPD, but I wanted to say that you all are absolutely correct. Just recently, my husband got sick with the flu, and I was annoyed at him because I was going to spend the day shopping. What kind of crap is that I told myself? He had asked me to go to the store and make my famous paninis, and at first I balked. I had other stuff to do (none which were very important).

I took a step back and realized that my husband would do that for me in a heartbeat, and so I went out, made paninies, and made sure they were the best paninis he had. The next day, I canceled work to lay in bed with him so he felt comforted.

It is something that is so baffling to me. I should want to help those closest to me. But it's almost as though I feel fear that our dynamic is going to change or that they are going to die, or whatever, and leave me alone.

But it's not all about me... .  too bad emotions aren't rational.

I am so sorry for you all. Your posts brought tears to my eyes because I know the situation you are referring to. Those are the times we don't feel human in lacking that empathy.
Logged
charred
*******
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 1206



« Reply #46 on: January 05, 2013, 12:42:02 AM »

FB is evil if you have an ex pwBPD. 

Checked my exBPDgf's and she is posting about how with the guy she needs; "words don't matter its actions that do."

That was one of her favorite jabs at me, saying my words were pretty but didn't match my actions... .  and she is right.

My words were of  being together as partners, that I loved and would protect her.

Her actions showed she had no idea what a partner is and couldn't be one, that she has no real ability or deep understanding of the give and take that is part and parcel of an adult love relationship, and she twisted "protecting her" to mean backing her vicious attacks on my ex-wife, daughter and myself. Her words were sarcastic at times, mocking at times, exaggerated condescending baby talk at times, all interlaced with anger and vitriol.

So do my words match my actions... NO my actions have been honorable, but my words were cast like pearls before swine... .  they were backed by gold, traded to an emotional scammer that used a fiat currency and fraudulent means to get what she wanted.
Logged
HardTruth
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 184


« Reply #47 on: January 05, 2013, 12:52:55 AM »

HighFunctional - thank you for your post.  It is helpful to hear what the other person may be going through. 

"But it's almost as though I feel fear that our dynamic is going to change or that they are going to die, or whatever, and leave me alone. "

This is something that hadn't occurred to me as an experience that my ex might have been having. 

It was nice of you to make the paninis for your husband, and really nice for you to stay home and lay in bed with him!  I would have LOVED if my exBPD, or any of my ex's, BPD or not!, would do that for me!
Logged
charred
*******
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 1206



« Reply #48 on: January 05, 2013, 08:08:51 AM »

I was thinking also about our pwBPD and our r/s with them. Mine says my actions dont match my words... and at the moment she is mostly referring ... I think, to saying I care but not being with her when she needs me. She is need driven, has made that clear by her actions all the time, and at the moment is going through a cancer scare, and may well have some kind of cancer, her mother and grandmother had it and it came on around her age.

So she is saying my words always that I cared... don't match being apart from her when she needs me... .  yet she has a new guy that she idealizes and is saying puts a smile on her face and is there for her (he hasn't been put through the clinging/hating phases yet ... far as I know, or maybe he is now in clinging.)

The thing I am thinking is that she used to give me hope of a wonderful future with her, and it was all delusional fantasy on my part, the reality was great for me in the idealization phase, but its stunk the rest of the time. And each make up has a shorter and shorter happy time, before the nastiness kicks in.

If the pill making people came up with a near cure for the emotional dysregulation that BPD people suffer... .  what would be the effect? I think about my relation with my pwBPD, and first thought is "it would be great, we could be together"... but part of her draw to me was the larger than life emotionality, she wasn't happy, she would be bouncing around like Thumper in Bambi, and our r/s was intense, both intensely good and intensly bad... if that volume knob on the emotions were turned down, she would be a completely different person... .  admittedly one that might be capable of wanting to be fixed and even able to be fixed... .  but she would also be a lot closer to all the normal people that I didn't fixate on, dream of, and trauma bond with.

Just some idle thought... .  I don't think that given the situation, a miracle cure is a possibiity, the dynamics of the relationship are such that fixing the person would end the deep connection. Or as I see it, there is no hope of a good end where she and I are together without fireworks.

Logged
HardTruth
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 184


« Reply #49 on: January 05, 2013, 05:13:27 PM »

When she says, "Your actions don't match your words", I think what she's really saying is, "You're not submitting to my control, and I don't like that". 

She's highly manipulative, and she's good at it.  As a result, you are in and out of the FOG, getting stuck on the WORDS, but you already know the behind-the-scenes meaning... .  or at least suspect it.

Don't get stuck on the words.  They are just a transmission to confuse and manipulate you. 
Logged
charred
*******
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 1206



« Reply #50 on: January 06, 2013, 06:37:15 AM »

HardTruth-

I never knew what was behind her words, as they were always vague... like she would say "The hardest thing is admitting you are wrong."... .  What the heck? 

Hard for who? Admitting who was wrong? Wrong about what? That is the kind of vague blank statements she would make and then be closed lipped.

There is no good response to that... .  if you take it as a lead in that YOU were wrong... you are being asked to confess to something. If you ask what they thought was wrong... .  you might get an answer... but are more likely to get the "you know what you did" response, or "You are paranoid, I wasn't talking about you, you know not everything is about you."  so it ends up being a manipulation... .  though it may have been some stunted attempt to say something... never could figure it out, nor could anyone... .  and I am pretty sure that was the point.
Logged
ExTreme

*
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 31



« Reply #51 on: January 06, 2013, 09:46:37 AM »

Charred-

The answer is in the question.   Look inside.
Logged
HardTruth
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 184


« Reply #52 on: January 06, 2013, 11:38:47 AM »

Yes, Charred, your post makes sense.  That's what I meant - that you sensed that behind the words was some form of manipulation and disordered emotional state - probably involving pain, fear, anger or anxiety.  Thus, her comment or her question wasn't completely sincere - it was not coming genuinely from the heart or from an accurate assessment of reality.

That's why I said, don't get stuck on the WORDS.  You already know that, but it's hard not to.  It makes your mind race as you try to figure it out.  Believe me, I did this with my ex after he turned me black.  Finally I saw that a lot of it was either a form of projection, a cover-up of his confusing emotion, etc.  Since their emotions and thought process associated with their emotion is disordered, it's difficult to know EXACTLY what was going on "behind-the-scenes".  

All you know is that you can't take their words at face value.  I know you already know that, but I'm just validating it.

Unlike your ex-wife.  If she says something to you, most of the time it makes sense to you, right?  Regardless of whether you agree or not, or whether you like what she's saying or not.  How often when your ex-wife communicates with you do you go, Whaaaat?  Maybe sometimes, but not 50% of the time, or 80% of the time... .  

Your dad sounds like he was pretty mixed up too, in his emotional state and being able to be mature, consistent and caring.  Mine was too.  Mine was on the crazy train.  Sociopath with paranoia.  I kept expecting him to show up as my dad, but he could only do that maybe 5% of the time.  And only if there was no stressor.  I expect that your exBPDgf is similar.  

What you said earlier - that your words and actions do match - you were asking for partnership and talking as if she could be a partner.  But she can't. And it's because of that that now, superficially, it looks like your words and actions don't match.

But it just looks like that to her, or she wants to twist it that way.  To the rest of us, your words and actions DO match, she just couldn't step up to it.
Logged
myself
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 3151


« Reply #53 on: January 06, 2013, 01:13:26 PM »

When she says, "Your actions don't match your words"

It's a form of projection. She's really saying, "MY actions don't match MY words." Same as if she said, for example, "You're an a$%h*le", that's also probably about herself.

It's when they're telling you how great you are that you need to believe it.  Smiling (click to insert in post)

(Believe, but don't go backwards. It could also be a ploy. Don't recycle.)
Logged
OTH
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Relationship status: Single
Posts: 2307


It's not too late to make better choices


« Reply #54 on: January 06, 2013, 06:38:13 PM »

Excerpt
fraudulent means to get what she wanted

What do you think she wanted?
Logged

Mary Oliver:  Someone I loved gave me a box full of darkness. It took me years to understand that this too, was a gift

thewife
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Relationship status: married 31 yrs
Posts: 285


« Reply #55 on: January 06, 2013, 10:39:34 PM »

We had been married over 25 years when my mother died, he didnt think he could handle it so he never showed up for anything including the funeral. I took care of evey thing, took care of my father they were married 50 yrs and my 4 kids all by myself. I thought at the time I was helping him to cope. Really how twisted we allow our thinking to be. No one was there to take care of me.
Logged
charred
*******
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 1206



« Reply #56 on: January 07, 2013, 12:25:51 PM »

Excerpt
fraudulent means to get what she wanted

What do you think she wanted?

I would guess she wanted me to treat her like she treated me during the idealization phase... but without expressing any opinions of my own, and rejecting/despising my exwife, and avoiding/ignoring my daughter... .  visibly to her, like snubbing them all the time.

Were I to do that ... .  she would come up with more preposterous things she wanted that were psychologically painful for me.

One of her long FB rants was that " it could never work with us, that I would have to cut my apron strings with my ex, quit using her as a wetnurse for my emotions, would have to grow a backbone, move close to her, and be trustworthy, ans that I wasn't man enough to do any of those... .  and she couldn't trust me in any event."

What is kind of amusing about her was that she did her best to present the front of being a religious, sweet, helpful, caring woman of high morals. She loved to talk about how sinful other people were, how she felt a calling to help people and that led her to teaching, that many times she considered joining a convent to do god's work, etc. Those were the words... the actions, couple abortions, she came to me, a married man and did everything in her power to get me to pursue a divorce (which I stupidly did), when she is mad ... .  well few sailors have the cursing vocabulary she does and amazing willingness to say anything/everything that came to her mind that was hurtful.  And despite her btching about it, we ended after her words that we were going to live together and start things right... .  were followed by the unmatching actions of being a no show, and going NC, without explanation... .  so the "Words not matching actions" I believe is based on a cross between projection and me having some integrity and her wishing to use my modicum of virtue to pistol whip me in to submission to her deep seated whims.



Logged
OTH
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Relationship status: Single
Posts: 2307


It's not too late to make better choices


« Reply #57 on: January 07, 2013, 02:19:38 PM »

Yeah. She probably wanted you to focus all your attention and resources on her. Not very reasonable at all.
Logged

Mary Oliver:  Someone I loved gave me a box full of darkness. It took me years to understand that this too, was a gift

charred
*******
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 1206



« Reply #58 on: January 07, 2013, 02:55:09 PM »

The content of all most all our arguments was her wanting me to cut off and treat my exwife like crap, and be strict/hard on my daughter. I refused to do either, and tried to get the focus on us and our r/s. Every normal relationship I had over time became more comfortable, less stressed, and the enjoyment of being with the other person drove out fears and insecurities. With my pwBPD, it was the exact opposite. If we were together enjoying a nice time, she would start agitating about my exwife.

This is what she said when I responded to an email where she was begging me to come back... .  friendly for her;

"The only way this could even possibly be true is if absolutely nothing were the same as before.  No <exwife> being allowed to interfere... .  No daughter being indulged to the point where you are jumping every time she twitches a little finger... .  No living in <city>, where you are constantly on call, with <exwife> hand being in your pocket at every turn... .  Nothing from the past being allowed to interfere with the future... .  No calling <exwife> the moment you are away from me, telling her what a huge mistake it was for you to try to reconcile with me.  No <exwife> being allowed to email me or call me, bullying me and harassing me.  Me, coming first, PERIOD.  I will never return again to what I had to endure for those three God-forsaken years."



Oh, by the way, she called my exwife and bullied her, texted and emailed her nasty letters... claimed exwife did it, I asked to see it... .  excuses, my exwife showed me all kinds of nasty texts/emails.

But back to the crazy emails... she followed up the above one with this;


"The same problem as always... .  I would have to trust you.

And I don't.

It would take decades of you proving, every single day of your life, that you are above reproach.

You aren't up to the challenge."



So I said... .  "Whatever, good luck to you anyway."

And got back;

"Your response indicates that I am absolutely correct.  All it takes is me pointing out the obvious and you cave.

Strong to the end... .  Not."




As communications go with my exBPDgf... .  she was being very nice, best behavior.  Later she painted me black and made it clear I was unreasonable... Guess not being willing to prove to her every day for decades (as her slave i think) that I was trustworthy to keep distance from my exwife, who doesn't particularly want me around... .  to move out of the city I live in to be close to her... .  in fact she wanted me to move in with my mother.  (That is what every successful 50 yr old man wants to do.) And "those three god forsaken years"... .  she earlier claimed were the best in her life and she couldn't stand having them end.

A+ crazy making.






Logged
BleedsOrange
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 415


« Reply #59 on: January 07, 2013, 03:26:56 PM »

In caring, truly altruistic way? Never. If she could not judge, criticize or tell me what I SHOULD do or SHOULD have done. Any way to put herself above me, There was nothing. The topic would quickly switch to her in some way. Im not saying this in a way that makes her bad, but she was never there for me.

When I texted her to tell her that my older sister had an irregular mammogram, I got no response. NONE for about five days. Everything ended up ok, but I was not pleased- I was really worried about my sister. When I asked her about it, she responded, "I knew everything would be ok. It wasnt a bid deal." Her mother was a breast cancer survivor. Of all the things I thought she might empathize with, I def. thought this would be one. Wrong.

When I say never. I mean it.
Logged
charred
*******
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 1206



« Reply #60 on: January 07, 2013, 03:39:54 PM »

Put simply... .  other than for the divorce from my exwife (which she prompted/wanted) my exBPDgf was not 'there' for me, but OMG did she expect me to be there for her, her family, her friends, her kid... .  her interests... whatever it was, I was expected to move heaven and earth to keep her feelings happy/approving.
Logged
blurry
***
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 219


« Reply #61 on: January 07, 2013, 04:11:26 PM »

 Mine was ALWAYS there for me when it didnt directly involve the relationship itself, she'd do anything for me, which is part of the reason why im so in love. Now as far as the relationship itself, any time i politely voiced a concern asking about hot/cold spells (push/pull), idealization followed by devaluation, or on occasions i got mad because she stayed up late partying, it was never a response you would assume an adult who was deeply committed and in love would give you, i got completely berated either right away, or after not settling for an answer like "get over it" or "leave me alone".

Id say 7 occasions total, when i had seemingly simple concerns and i needed her in terms of the health of our relationship and commitment to each other, twice she woke up the next day with amnesia apparently, and 4 (two of the occasions kinda went together)times she told me she hated me, never loved me and dumped me. So id have to say zero times, to answer the OPs question.
Logged
charred
*******
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 1206



« Reply #62 on: January 07, 2013, 04:13:48 PM »

Mine was always there in idealization/honeymoon phase... but that was maybe 9 mos out of 4 yrs... after that, it was pretty much one way street.
Logged
blurry
***
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 219


« Reply #63 on: January 07, 2013, 05:13:31 PM »

 You know what this got me thinking about too, while it was LDR, it was 50/50 in terms of effort like a normal relationship, but once i moved in with her, i sacrificed EVERYTHING to be with her, and she literally sacrificed NOTHING at all to have me there ( a clear thinking adult wouldnt ask you to move 100 miles one day because youre the love of her life and she cant live or breathe without you, and change her mind 3 days later because she hates everything about you, i know its a womans perogative and all but this is kinda extreme), she may of perceived some kind of loss of freedom ( she has control issues too, not sure if thats BPD related or not),  before betraying me repeatedly and sending me packing. The things we do for love... .  
Logged
Wimowe
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 71


« Reply #64 on: January 09, 2013, 07:24:35 PM »

... .  I'm copy/pasting in HardTruth's comment to Diana82:

--------------------------------------

How often when you were together was your exgf really there when you needed her?

During the Vulnerable Seducer phase, too much.  After that, almost never. Or worse, she would show up in the most perfunctory way, as if honoring an obligation at the least possible inconvenience to herself.  That actually hurt more than if she didn't show up at all.

Excerpt
When you had a problem ... .  or were hurt in the relationship, how often did she turn it around and make it about her?

Almost always.  She could usually find some (often minor) misstep I'd made in the interaction. If I hadn't made any, she'd resort to the abuser's trusty standby, "You're too sensitive."  There were a few times when she seemed to have real remorse that she'd done harm.

Excerpt
[H]ow often was she able to step out of herself and really focus on you, how you were feeling, and what she could do to fix the problem and make you feel better?

Rarely.  Once in a while she seemed to sense or acknowledge the lack of reciprocity in our relationship and tried to remedy it.  Like she was acting out of a false self version of a good partner.  It never felt completely genuine.  By then, I felt so unsafe that I didn't trust it.  I believe her good intention was there; she just didn't have the wherewithal to sustain it.

Logged
charred
*******
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 1206



« Reply #65 on: January 10, 2013, 12:01:11 AM »

You know what this got me thinking about too, while it was LDR, it was 50/50 in terms of effort like a normal relationship, but once i moved in with her, i sacrificed EVERYTHING to be with her, and she literally sacrificed NOTHING at all to have me there ( a clear thinking adult wouldnt ask you to move 100 miles one day because your the love of her life and she cant live or breathe without you, and change her mind 3 days later because she hates everything about you, i know its a womans prerogative and all but this is kinda extreme), she may of perceived some kind of loss of freedom ( she has control issues too, not sure if thats BPD related or not),  before betraying me repeatedly and sending me packing. The things we do for love... .  

My breakup came after my exBPDgf insisted I move down to her area, that I sell my house, move away from my daughter (but the reason give was to move away from the ex-wife)... and that ... .  I move in with my mother. I moved out from my mother at 13 and haven't lived with her since, stayed at my dad's apartment (he lived with girlfriend, was alone till I was 17 and went to college.) Meanwhile my pwBPD wasn't going to have me live with her because it would set a bad example and she was being such a good Christian (that week anyway.) When I said I would move down and stay with my mom for a while, and see how it goes... she freaked and went NC... .  then I did same, she flipped and sent me 100's of txts, emails, contacted my family and we went our separate ways for a while. Till I saw her last night actually, and she had revised history quite a bit.

What I found interesting is the one-way street way the pwBPD seems to try to get us to do stuff. My pwBPD couldn't come to see me in my city, because it was the same one as my exwife and that was in her backyard and something might happen. (Asked what... no answer.) However when I offered to take her for a week to the Carribean, she was able to overcome that fear of coming to my city... .  but it came back when we were back from the trip. (Sometime I should write up that trip from hell... ) So my exBPDgf... wanted me to spend a lot of money to sell my house, pay for movers, take the emasculation of moving back in with my mommy at 50, live in my old room, be 4 hrs from my daughter about to become a teenager... .  and she finished her requests... .  by saying I needed to do it for me, she couldn't and shouldn't be the reason I moved down, with all our issues, there were no promises.  (For brass balls when it comes to requests... .  never seen her equal.) Wonder why it didn't happen? Sound like a reasonable equitable solution? When I said no and went NC... .  she claims her folks were looking in to getting her committed, as she was acting crazy, despondent, not eating... .  and blaming me of course.

I had told her I would move down and stay with my mom for a while and see how it went, I just needed to be able to see a lot of her (pwBPD)... and lets take it from there... .  sounded reasonable to me... .  but this one time I said I needed her to be with me ... .  was the time she was ready to be committed to an institution and refused any contact, had me blocked on everything.

Last night I saw her ... .  breaking NC, and we ended the evening with her irritated at me that I didn't want to provide emotional support to her, she had taken up with another guy... .  plastering wonderful stuff about him, pics of them a few miles from my house kissing, etc... (which is 4 hrs away from her home)... and she just broke up with him. He supposedly was draining her dry of money (call me skeptical)... .  was striking from his job and she was helping him... .  and he gave her an STD, and she was spending all her remaining money on treatment and was paying such an emotional price... if I cared why didn't I even ask her dammit? Didn't mention she wanted to see me while she was out shopping, buying dancing clothes to go out clubbing on the weekend to the two haunts she used to cruise for guys at... .  all in all, does this add up to me being insensitive/Narcissistic? Didn't to me. So, my evenings are free, she is on her own, she started blocking me on FB again... actually suspect she didn't break up with guy or is making up ... .  but who knows. She is same lying, manipulating, disordered gal I have a long attachment problem with, no doubt. Hope you all have less disordered SO's.
Logged
BleedsOrange
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 415


« Reply #66 on: January 10, 2013, 10:45:06 AM »

"You're too sensitive" 

REALLY? CAuse at the beginning I  "wasnt sensitive enough" When she was hurting from whatever the hell it was at the tim, I had to be there immediately and constantly. If I was hurt it didnt matter. YAY! Im out!

Thank you, my dearest, for finally showing me the compassion I so desperately wanted, and dumping me like a pile of bricks in a manner that ensured that I would never want you in any capacity ever again. Thank you for moving on and getting married so quickly, so that I would have no time to forget that contacting you would be a mistake. These are the kindest gifts you could have given me except for when I know you tried your damnedest to love me. I thank you for all of these: the most compassionate things you did.

Logged
birdlady
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 75


« Reply #67 on: January 10, 2013, 08:43:42 PM »

He was not there for me when I needed him. The more I needed him, even when I clearly and verbally asked for emotional support (no guessing games), the less he was there or me. He was not on my side. He did not have had my back.  There was no empathy and no sense of being a team or in it together from him. I often felt quite alone. I self soothed, and it is good to be able to do that, but part of being intimate partners is being there with each other through thick and thin. That was so lacking.
Logged
cominghome
****
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: divorced
Posts: 436



« Reply #68 on: January 11, 2013, 12:04:02 AM »

I had a serious face burn from super heated microwave water in a cup years ago (that explosive water is not an urban legend, I found out first hand.)  I was up early to get ready for our family vacation--trying to get my coffee mocha going.  I tried to wake my ex-husband up----he tried to ignore me.  I went back a third time and when he finally got up--he was ticked. Our vacation was ruined. I needed to go to the hospital, and was eventually airlifted to a major burn hospital. No scaring so I was very fortunate. What I'll never forget was my ex-husband's total lack of empathy or compassion that morning. I carried my purse into the ER--holding a wet towel over my raw face. No help. No "how are you doing?" No concern. No arm for support.  I truly believe his thoughts were on how to get the airline tickets reimbursed and his fear for himself, if he would lose me. We'd been married 23 years, and my needs had been ignored for years by both of us by that time. It turned out to be a very powerful lesson/awakening for me.  I don't believe my ex was being mean---he just didn't have the capacity to care for another person more than himself. It took a crisis to really highlight that. Really sad stuff. 
Logged
GreenMango
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 4328



« Reply #69 on: January 11, 2013, 01:20:48 AM »

Staff only

Hi folks this thread has reached it's four page maximum so we are locking this one up.  Thank you all for contributing and hope you are doing well.

Logged

Can You Help Us Stay on the Air in 2021?

Pages: 1 2 3 [All]   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Our 2020 Financial Sponsors
We are all appreciative of the members who provide the funding to keep BPDFamily on the air.
40days_in_desert
Ahquei3s
alphabeta
Amethyste
Angie59
ArtistGuy70
AskingWhy
assumezero
At Bay
Avanzando
Baglady
Beneck
bigredneck
Bittlecat
Boll Weevil
calmboom
Cat Familiar
Chosen
Dnmtnbkr
drained1996
Eggshellsbroken
FaintTheGoat
FaithHopeLove
FindingMe2011
Forgiveness
freespirit
GaGrl
ggGreg
Gift to Myself
gotbushels
Harri
hopeandchoices
I Am Redeemed
Imatter33
Jazzy48
jdc
jones54
Jonthan
Katrinalove
Kwamina
l8kgrl
LLgreen
Longterm
lorymac
lovenature
loyalwife
lucidone
Manifest32f
MariannaR
Meridius
Methuen
mgirl
Minttea
Mommydoc
Mutt
narcdaughter2
needPeace
NorseWoman
Notgoneyet
oceanheart
oftentimes
Omega1
once removed
Only Human
otherlife
palynne
PeacefulMom
Pedro
pest947
podsnapG
ProudDad12
pursuingJoy
Radcliff
Raul
Recycle
Resiliant
Rev
Rosheger
Sad4Her
SamwizeGamgee
Sandalwood
SBBayArea
SCM
SerendipityChild
SES
Silverhope
Skip
songbirdtwo
StillStuck
Swimmy55
Teno
townhouse
truthbeknown
turtleengine501
Ventak
vinnie77
Violet00
wavewatcher
wendydarling
WhatJustHappened?
Whichwayisup
whirlpoollife
Wicker Man
WindofChange
worn_out
WTL
zachira
zaqsert

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2006-2020, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!