I Stole the Dog and am Scared to Death

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Hi Everyone!

Well, for those that do not know me, I am divorcing my h for the second time for the very same behavior I divorced him the first time. I finally learned and am in therapy. I also have this board to post to and for which I really am grateful.

This is what is happening. I fled the house with only what I could get in my truck. Then went back later, when the h was a work and got half of everything including all that I brought to the second marriage. Changed the bank accounts, got money for a lawyer out of family funds... .  etc. Did all the right things. should feel really fine and dandy right now shouldn't I. Nice apartment, good lawyer, money... .  but I didn't take the dog.

I had taken the two cats already. I thought that since I knew the h was really close to his dog it would be in my favor (and the dog's) for him to just have her. Well, I know now that he loves that dog like he were a 6 year old. And what that means is that he keeps her in her crate all the time he is at work and then some... .  10,12,13 hours a day. No water till he comes home. Filthy apartment. I was sneaking in and walking the dog while he was at work. I still have the keys because I am technically still a lease holder.

I drove past the h's apartment (I got a much smaller one bedroom in the same complex-I really would not have done so if I could have planned what I call the Great Escape) and saw that on this wonderful warm Saturday afternoon where all the tenants are out with their dogs since it is the middle of Jan and should be freezing and is not, guess what, no h. Car gone.

I was supposed to go shopping and so I continued and got on the highway and then I said WAIT! What about the dog?

I went back, got the keys and went into the h's filthy apartment and there the dog was, on this beautiful day, you guessed it! IN THE CRATE!

I posted on another thread that if GOD be willing I would get that dog. So yesterday I got her. I just took her right out the door, put her in my truck, took her for a good long walk and got her other crate out of storage and now she is in my apartment. The cats are fine with her... .  they sleep all in the bed together.

But the h called about 5:30 UPSET! But not the angry raging upset that is his MO but something much much weirder. He was begging me to let him have his dog back. Like a six year old. It was more than bizarre. I am truly afraid that the h had a break with real time and was back in his FOO.

I told him in a business like way that we will be having a preliminary meeting with the judge to discuss how the divorce will proceed and at that time we can ask the judge who should have the dog. I told the h that I would abide by whatever the judge says. I hung up. He called again, I answered and repeated what I just wrote here.

First this is just too scary. His behavior was so strange. Also it looks like he is going to be having an interview for a job at the end of the month that he just might get and it is in another state.

What do you think... .  am I making this way to big a deal about his behavior... .  am I being recycled... .  or gaslighted or any of the other things that set my triggers off royally?

Any opinions are gladly accepted.

Mink

[minkmink]

Hi Everyone!

Well, for those that do not know me, I am divorcing my h for the second time for the very same behavior I divorced him the first time. I finally learned and am in therapy. I also have this board to post to and for which I really am grateful.

This is what is happening. I fled the house with only what I could get in my truck. Then went back later, when the h was a work and got half of everything including all that I brought to the second marriage. Changed the bank accounts, got money for a lawyer out of family funds... .  etc. Did all the right things. should feel really fine and dandy right now shouldn't I. Nice apartment, good lawyer, money... .  but I didn't take the dog.

I had taken the two cats already. I thought that since I knew the h was really close to his dog it would be in my favor (and the dog's) for him to just have her. Well, I know now that he loves that dog like he were a 6 year old. And what that means is that he keeps her in her crate all the time he is at work and then some... .  10,12,13 hours a day. No water till he comes home. Filthy apartment. I was sneaking in and walking the dog while he was at work. I still have the keys because I am technically still a lease holder.

I drove past the h's apartment (I got a much smaller one bedroom in the same complex-I really would not have done so if I could have planned what I call the Great Escape) and saw that on this wonderful warm Saturday afternoon where all the tenants are out with their dogs since it is the middle of Jan and should be freezing and is not, guess what, no h. Car gone.

I was supposed to go shopping and so I continued and got on the highway and then I said WAIT! What about the dog?

I went back, got the keys and went into the h's filthy apartment and there the dog was, on this beautiful day, you guessed it! IN THE CRATE!

I posted on another thread that if GOD be willing I would get that dog. So yesterday I got her. I just took her right out the door, put her in my truck, took her for a good long walk and got her other crate out of storage and now she is in my apartment. The cats are fine with her... .  they sleep all in the bed together.

But the h called about 5:30 UPSET! But not the angry raging upset that is his MO but something much much weirder. He was begging me to let him have his dog back. Like a six year old. It was more than bizarre. I am truly afraid that the h had a break with real time and was back in his FOO.

I told him in a business like way that we will be having a preliminary meeting with the judge to discuss how the divorce will proceed and at that time we can ask the judge who should have the dog. I told the h that I would abide by whatever the judge says. I hung up. He called again, I answered and repeated what I just wrote here.

First this is just too scary. His behavior was so strange. Also it looks like he is going to be having an interview for a job at the end of the month that he just might get and it is in another state.

What do you think... .  am I making this way to big a deal about his behavior... .  am I being recycled... .  or gaslighted or any of the other things that set my triggers off royally?

Any opinions are gladly accepted.

Mink

[seeking balance]

Well, I can see both sides.

What does your attorney say?

Would you be willing to let ex have the dog in the evenings or weekends?  Think of solutions, not conflict... .  there will be plenty of other conflict in this process.

[gina louise]

minkmink,

good job-hope it works.

Since he was keeping the dog as a sort of prisoner in the crate, can you prove that?

Did you get pix of his filthy apartment?

Can you? Get some pix of his apartment living conditions, I mean? Can any one vouch for your view about the dog's treatment?

I would feel better, if it were me, having proof that the conditions for the dog-with him-were less than ideal or healthy. Otherwise it's your word vs his.

Pictures don't lie-they tell a story.

good luck.

GL

[ambi]

I understand your concern for the dog.  Being in a crate for extended periods of time with no water does not sound like responsible pet ownership.  I have to say, if I was working late and came home to find my dog missing, I'd be very upset.  I'm not so sure his upset is an attempt to recycle or gaslight you.  He  might be very attached to the dog.  

Would you feel better about leaving the dog with him if he or you arranged for a dog walker to come every afternoon?

[minkmink]

Ambi,

That is the problem. He refuses to pay for anyone to help with the dog. For one, he just won't fork over the money. We have had this conversation when he was making  $250,000 a year and was living in a plush extended stay hotel doing a contract job in which I had sent the dog to be with him during his working stay. I was still at home in another state 1/2 time. When I wasn't with him I had given the manager of the hotel a certain amount of money for a month of dog walking. I had to do it on the sly since the h refused to allow this expense. I would fly in every other month to basically take care of all the nitty gritty of life so the h did not have to deal with it (including caring for the dog).

Ended up the dog peed all over the rugs that had to be replaced at a cost of $700 which the h refused to pay also. It is now sitting on his credit report.

Also, the h is just plain paranoid to allow anyone into his home. Period. No one allowed if he or I am not there.

Mink

[Suzn]

I posted on another thread that if GOD be willing I would get that dog. So yesterday I got her. I just took her right out the door, put her in my truck, took her for a good long walk and got her other crate out of storage and now she is in my apartment.

Putting a dog in a "crate" is called "kenneling". It's understandable you feel this is cruel, I use to feel the same way until I spoke with my vet. A dog feels secure in a kennel once they have been kennel trained. Unless you put this kennel outside in the sun on a day that is very hot it will not hurt a dog to go 10,12 or 14 hours without water.

Your ex probably would have appreciated you taking his dog for walk and then returning him to his kennel. What I noticed in your post is that you went and got a crate of your own to put the dog in at your house? I would encourage you to return this dog to his owner.

[livednlearned]

I did the same thing, minkmink, when I left. Reading your post was so close to my own experience.

It sounds like the dog is technically marital property. That means you could ride this out through the courts.

I had domestic assistance (law enforcement) come with me when I retrieved my belongings, and they said I could take any of my belongings, but nothing considered marital property. Even though technically the dog was "our" dog, and therefore marital property (we were living together when we brought her home), she was mine. She was bonded to me, and I took care of her. I fed her, walked her, took her to the vet, gave her medicine, and had trained her. I also knew that N/BPDx would not take care of her the same way. I cried when I couldn't take her, and the cop escorting me was a dog lover, and knew what was going on. He told me, "We can't let you take the dog while we're here." You probably know from your own divorce experience that once you have your belongings, the courts get loose divvying it up, and the same goes for pets unless your ex contests it.

I went back three weeks later and took her from the house, exactly like you did. She lives with me now.

For what it's worth, if you can walk her during the day and take care of her better than he can (ie more daily exercise and social interaction), the dog will have a better life with you. Let him have her on the weekends when he can see her, and let her be with you during the week if that means time out of the crate.  I know people crate their dogs longer than 8 hours, but if you're a dog lover, and you know there's an option that includes more social and physical interaction, that's preferable to extended crating, imo.

[minkmink]

Dear LivedandLearned, Ambi, Susn, gina l, seeking balance,

thank you for your thoughtful thoughts. I see your points. The issue is is that the H soon to be x (I hope) would not. The dog is his dog and he can do what he dang well pleases with her. Kinda like how he treats all of humanity. My way or the highway. My needs taken care of first.

I e mailed my T who for those that have been around for awhile may know her name. It is AJ Mahari. She is  a life coach for people with BPD and for the SOs/families of people with BPD. She pulls no punches. Let me tell you.

She advised me to keep the dog... .  she wanted me to take the dog in the beginning but I was still believing that if the h loves the dog so much he would care for the dog. Maybe he can't care for me but he can care for the dog. But no. That was not the case. She already knew that was going to happen. She told me that the h has yet to learn to prioritize his needs and the dog's needs. She believes that the dog is not being treated in a humane manner with him. So she told me to stop taking care of him (the h not the dog) (he has to learn to do that himself) and to take all that energy and begin to take care of me and care for the dog.

Lived and Learned... .  I fed, walked, took to the vet, sat up nights with her when she was ill, held her when the storms scared her, played with her, taught her to walk up stairs (she was a rescue and was a crate prisoner in her first life), played her first music for her, cleaned her poop when she had an accident and on and on and on. Now she is a healthy, well trained (she had been regressing while under the h's care) but she is beginning to mind again, happy little Jack Russell. Yes, she misses the h. I know that. She is a Daddy's girl.

But if I gave her back I would never see her again. And the h would go back to his old behavior. And yes, I have pictures.

She is back to her structured life. I am not working now (I am beginning a on line program to beef up my computer skills to advanced) but I will be and when that happens I will keep her in the bedroom where she is pretty good at using doggy pee pads. I also have lined the bedroom floor with moving pads (the big blanket ones) so if she has an accident just into the washer it goes. Also the two cats give her company so she has stimulation. And if need be I can always have someone walk her in the afternoons.

I wrote to my lawyer about taking the dog. He has not wrote me back so I think he is just going to be "no comment" on the subject and as you said, Lived, just let it ride through the courts. If the h leaves for a job in another state the court would never allow him to take the dog with him until the judge decides who gets what. And that could be a long time from now.

Anyway, except for the money, which I have documentation on all of it. I have what I want so the h can have the rest. And that should be fine in the court. He really is getting more but that is OK since there is no where to put it. I feel I am liviing in "The Ole Curiousity Shop" (Dickens) as it is.

Good night all. have a pleasant night.

Mink.

[ForeverDad]

You took the dog, you retrieved the dog, you rescued the dog, but please don't say you stole it.  It's not a wise thing to, um, express it that way.

Yes, you may have felt that way but we all know you don't steal.  We know you're not that kind of person, the reality is that you are a kind person.  Of course, this is an anonymous support site and so it's okay to express how you feel, but we don't want those sorts of 'trigger' words to slip out in your life to the ex or those involved in the divorce case.  IMO

[Want2know]

I wrote to my lawyer about taking the dog. He has not wrote me back so I think he is just going to be "no comment" on the subject and as you said, Lived, just let it ride through the courts. If the h leaves for a job in another state the court would never allow him to take the dog with him until the judge decides who gets what. And that could be a long time from now.

Taking a dog during a divorce is not a social issue, and the judge will not get into this level of detail regarding your case.  

What is happening is you are heading yourself into a messy, high conflict divorce that will be expensive and create a lot of anguish.  Using advice contrary to what your lawyer is suggesting should be avoided, and his non-response is something you might want to look at in a different light.  A life coach is looking to help you on an emotional level, and although that is good support to have, they are not lawyers.  Making decisions based upon your emotions right now is not using your Wise Mind.  I would suggest you reconsider what you have done, and rectify the situation amicably.

[BentNotBroken]

I am concerned about this, but am not sure how to phrase it gently. You described his living conditions as "filthy." That is an emotionally loaded word, and is on the far end of the spectrum. Is this an objective reality, or is it a subjective judgement on your part based on emotional reasoning?

My BPDex accused me of causing her house to be "filthy." My possessions were nothing more than "filth" to her. There was no "filth" in our house. Dusty--yes, cluttered--yes, but no "filth." She refused to dust, and claimed it was because it was so cluttered it made it impossible to dust. Everything must be clean and organized by me before she could commence cleaning. There was no room for anything other than what she wanted, and anything that was not "hers" must be worthless. The irony was that she caused more than half of the clutter to accumulate through her buying sprees.

Black and white thinking can rub off, and it is not exclusive to BPDs. Beware of making these statements for your own mental health. If it is indeed "filthy" and his treatment of the dog is so horrific, file an animal cruelty complaint and do the removal legally. Don't set yourself up to look like the loon to regular people. If you are creeping around taking pictures for future evidence, let your lawyer advise you on this especially before you let others know about the pics.

[PDQuick]

Be very careful not to set this up to be a high conflict, high cost, high stress divorce.  They can get that way fast and it's hard to stop it once it starts.  Anything that you and your spouse can agree on via the attorneys and not have a judge involved in will save you money.
 
So far, you have exited without notice, taken what you wanted and left him in the old apartment with the furnishing you didn't want.  You took your cats and left his dog - then you took the dog that you know he loves.  He called upset (as one would be if they lost their dog) and you told him you are going to wait for a court order before returning the dog.
 
BPD or not, that would freak out anyone and signal that this is going to be a fight to the death divorce.
 
I might call him, ask him if he wants his dog, share your concern about care, and get the dog over there.  It's his life and if the dog sits in a crate on a sunny day, it's not animal cruelty. Many dogs live in crates and its not significantly different than you locking the dog in a room for long hours with pee pads.
 
I love dogs and I think they deserve the best - and in fact you may have a cleaner house and more time to walk him - but it is his dog and unless the dog is in a cruel or neglectful environment by animal controls standards - this is not going to reflect well on you.
 
You mention that a life coach encouraged this.  She may be a great life coach in general, but on matters of divorces, we all need someone that knows the local family court judge and has both sensitivity and strength to keep us centered and not raising the level of conflict.  It might not be as emotionally satisfying - but it will get this resolved quicker and cheaper.
 
Good luck.

[minkmink]

I realize that we are all trying to find our way and being on this board is one way in which to help this process.

I may not have been clear as to what has happened in the past to make me do what I felt was necessary and still do.

1. The h is a rager, stole $130,000 from our joint account. After 5 months of begging him, discussing with him etc to put the money back I finally threw in the towel and said that is enough and moved out. I tried to move out before but he held me down on the bed for two hours until I promised that I would not leave. this has happened twice this past year alone.

2. I left him more than what I took. He has custom made Amish furniture, a full pantry, china, crystal glasses, linens. the whole nine yards. I left November 15 and continued to pay his bills until the end of the year although we were seperated physically with what was left of our joint account. He makes $9,000 to $20,000 per month which I have seen none of for five months.

3. I was terrified and am still terrified of his rages. He is emotionally and physically abusive.

4. Yes, his apartment is filthy. there is no other words for it. The toilet is black with scum. the kitchen has rotting food on the counters, garbage bags full sitting on the patio that animals have ripped open and eaten from. The dog has pooped in the living room and the only thing the h did was to pick up the poop. There is poop still embedded in the carpet. the dog was full of fleas and I had to medicate her and clean her dog linen. I also informed him that he should do the same for his bed (the custom made Amish King size bed) that he and the dog shared. He dumped the hand loomed bedspread on the floor. the place stinks of poop, rotting food, bacteria from the toilet and shower, unclean clothing strewn around the apartment. the dog bowls dirty. If that is not filth then OK, your idea of unclean living habits are different from mine.

5. Yes, I could have called animal control. But then the apartment management would have recieved notice on the condition of the apartment and he could have been evicted. I am still on the lease I could have been made to pay since I still live in the same complex and am responsible for his debts.

6. Yes, I could have waited and let the dog continue to be crated, for hours and hours. I chose not too and will take the consequences of my actions. I informed the h that I would abide by what the court says who the dog should go with. for now she is in a clean and quiet, safe and caring space. I even asked my attorney if the Judge could order the H to attend dog training/care classes so he could care for the dog responsibly.

7. Yes, it is true that I am probably looking at a high conflict divorce. I state strongly that nothing and I mean nothing will mollify, make amicable, be a fair exchange with this person who calls himself my husband. Before I left he told me straight out that if I ever tried to divorce him he would "take me to the supreme court" "bankrupt me in court" "if I leave I am allowed nothing" "everything is his and I do nothing to deserve anything from the marriage". So how am I to take these threats of total destruction?

What I have had to do to survive and get out of this hell realm. your choices may be different. Your situation may be different.

Again, this is what I chose to do and I will quite clearly have the fight of my life to separate from this very sick BPD person. And I stand by my decisions.


As far as AJ Mahari I have had nothing but good, compassionate and truthful sessions with her. I made these decisions above, I have not been unduly influenced by anyone.

Mink

[seeking balance]

Any opinions are gladly accepted.

Mink

did you want opinions or did you want to vent?  It's ok either way... .  nobody was trying to upset or invalidate your experience.

Again, I suggest you let your attorney handle it and look for solutions... .  think of it this way, every single time you have a MINOR conflict it is going to cost you a minimum of $500 in attorney fees... .  this is BEFORE you go to court.

If you don't want to be bandrupt, you have to be wise in which battles to choose.

Additionally, if your ex had an attorney or gets an attorney, you can bet that you won't have unrestricted access to that apartment whether you are on the lease or not.  Right this minute, a judge will see YOU as the high conflict person based on your actions.

Is this fair or even accurate - no - but please do not make the mistake to think that court is fair.

Not trying to invalidate you - several of us have been through the divoce process and are only trying to help you.

Peace,

SB

[minkmink]

Dear SB,

You bring up a good point... .  about the apartment that the h is in. I am right now going to the Apt Office to turn in my keys to his apartment and request that i be taken off the lease. If the h agrees then it will be so.

I will do everything in my power to work on a reasonable settlement. And no more contact with the h. He called last night wanting to know what he should do about the rental insurance on the apartment. I e mailed him back with a short to the point to speak with the management of the property. They have a rental insurance that he can get. Now this is just two days after I rescued the dog and he was crying like a babe like I did something so terrible it was killing him. Now he wants me to fix the insurance. He's a doctor. Educated and such a manipullator... .  OK this sounds like a rant coming on so I will stop.

I am very upset now. And I am doing alot of really hard... .  what did I do to become such a rescuer for this man although he treated me so abusively. It is hard going. If I am venting. Just say... .  OK, she had a vent. if I go over board, let me know. I understand high conflict and do not want it. In other words, I hear what you are saying.

Mink

[DreamGirl]

minkmink,



When my husband and I were seriously considering divorce, my very first thought was "what about my dogs?" My concern was not the house, the car, the furniture, but my two furbabies.

I read an article in People Magazine where it cost one woman in the upwards of $100,000 to retain custody of her two Maltese doggies.  It was obviously worth it to her and she also definitely had the money to burn. I don't how much it would be worth it to me. At the time, I was in catastrpohic mode of thinking, focused on my ability to take care of them best and not even thinking about a doggy custody agreement. 

I think everyone's insight here is based a lot on trying to help keep you grounded - the same way others were trying to help me stay grounded when I was soo worried about my dogs. (My best friend once saying to me "enough about the dogs already." My breed of dog takes a lot of grooming and attention and I was just so sure that he would fail. I was acting on emotion and not a whole lot of logic. I was hurt, afraid, and hyperfocused on something that in reality was a small part of a bigger picture.

I don't know that going into his home was a wise choice. Your safety is very important and based on what you said, it might have gotten ugly had he come home. It might have been better to have offered to take the pup. If he's pooping all over the apartment, your soon-to-be-exhusband might have gladly handed him over.  

I know what's done is done - but we also have to learn our lessons in this.

I'm also a big believer that it is extremely important that we keep our noses squeaky clean during divorce proceedings that involve someone who is disordered.  There tends to be a lot of blame and accusations going on, and my husband (and I) learned the very hard way that the best way to continually prove her wrong was by never doing anything that went against his values or the one's expected of him. (Like when she is behind $1200 in medical reimbursements, he still pays child support in full and on time) He can't complain about her missteps when he isn't upholding the same standards.

It's hard to detach during the divorce proceedings. The best advice I've seen on these boards is that you should start to treat it like a business relationship. You act heavy on the logic - and light on the emotion.

That's how the Judge will treat it and it's usually best to be the half that seems like she's reasonable and logical. Agreeing to the dog staying with him and then retracting on the agreement is not being reasonable and fair. Offering a new agreement would have been and may have had the same payoff (you getting the dog).

~DreamGirl

[BentNotBroken]

From your description of the Apt it sounds filthy to me. My suggestion would be to avoid the emotionally loaded words if you can when speaking to other people about this awful situation. Your husband sounds like he may have a lot more going on than just BPD, but it is a complex disorder with many different presentations from what I understand.

Keep yourself safe. Especially with the history of physical violence. People with BPD have been known to kill, as have many violent people without BPD. You should take appropriate steps to protect yourself, and avoid direct confrontations whenever possible. If you feel more comfortable communicating through your attorney or via email, do that instead of direct conversation.

[minkmink]

Thank you all for caring and giving me a break with my loaded emotions. yes, right now I am emotionally loaded. But I will get over it.

And I do hear you! All of you... .  and I will pretend that I am logical, sane and in a business relationship. Just keep telling me this and I will prevail and come back down where I want and need to be.

Just got the divorce papers filed with the court. See I am not venting or ranting. I am taking very deep breathes. Very Very Deep Breathes.

I will consider an arrangement with the soon to be x. Just give me a little time to figure out what to do. I am not immune to the h's feelings for our dog. what may very well happen, though is the h will get the dog and not allow me to see her. That is just the way he is mine, mine, mine  about anything he wants. Even me, I wasn't allowed to go anywhere, see anyone without an interrogation as to what, where, when. So possessive, so jealous.

Mink

[BentNotBroken]

Thank you all for caring and giving me a break with my loaded emotions. yes, right now I am emotionally loaded. But I will get over it.

And I do hear you! All of you... .  and I will pretend that I am logical, sane and in a business relationship. Just keep telling me this and I will prevail and come back down where I want and need to be.

Just got the divorce papers filed with the court. See I am not venting or ranting. I am taking very deep breathes. Very Very Deep Breathes.

I will consider an arrangement with the soon to be x. Just give me a little time to figure out what to do. I am not immune to the h's feelings for our dog. what may very well happen, though is the h will get the dog and not allow me to see her. That is just the way he is mine, mine, mine  about anything he wants. Even me, I wasn't allowed to go anywhere, see anyone without an interrogation as to what, where, when. So possessive, so jealous.

Mink

Big step! And filing first does make a difference, even if it is just a small one. You have some wounds from this relationship, but you are moving forward. Bravo!

I know I was stunned for a few months by the viciousness of my BPDex's attacks. It took a few violent episodes from her before I snapped out my shock, and started protecting myself so I could be there to protect our infant son.

I had to leave my beautiful, sweet-hearted Rottie there with her. I had a heart to heart talk with him before I moved out and let him know I needed him to be there to protect my son from his mother's rages. I think he already understood on an instinctual level, because he started sleeping in front of the door of the baby's room the last couple of months before I was forced out. The ex thought it was "cute." He now sleeps right next to the baby's bed. I have no doubt that he would defend that child with his life if the need arose, but I hope it never comes to that.

[minkmink]

Dear everyone,

I decided it best to work out an arrangement with the soon to me x h over the dog so that he can be with her too since he made it quite plain that losing his dog was the worst painful thing I ever did to him.

So  I took the dog over to his apartment last night, knocked on the dog, the dog started barking so the h knew it wasn't someone he did not want to see (he rarely answers the door).

I told him, here is your dog, I know that you care about her and in learning to care for her you will learn to care for yourself. I had tears just cascading down my face but I felt this was the thing to do. Let him have the dog.

He said to me point blank... .  Oh, you can take her home with you I am going out of town until Sunday. He didn't even touch the dog or say anything.  I was stunned by his lack of any emotion after the tirade about the dog on Saturday.

I said no,, she has missed you and you need to take her at least for the night. We made arrangements for me to pick her up at the Club House at noon.

No thank you, no nothing. He will also be on another interview after that. And I will still be caring for the dog.

I feel like a fool.


Mink

[DreamGirl]

I feel like a fool.

Why sweet mink?

I see you as brave and trying to do what's right?

[minkmink]

Oh, Dream girl... .  you are so so kind.

Mink

[DreamGirl]

Oh, Dream girl... .  you are so so kind.

Mink

And right. 

[ForeverDad]

I feel like a fool.

But you're not.  You did the right thing.  By doing so you learned something, that his protests about the gone dog were empty ones, there was no tender feeling behind it for the dog, the dog done was just a trigger.

And the benefit now is that he can't claim you snatched the dog, he actually asked you to keep it longer - so document that in case needed later.  What he just did deflates his future leverage to claim you wrongfully took the dog.

Your conscience feels better.  You learned the dog really meant a lot less to him than he had claimed or you had imagined.  StbEx doesn't have leverage anymore to claim you did something wrong. - Three huge positives in a lousy situation.

[Want2know]

Just to keep this balanced... .  

When we leave the relationship without notice, take money, furniture, and beloved pets, and say "see you in court" on a phone call to retrieve a pet... .  there is a lot a hurt and damage.

Did you apologize and say you were wrong? No (not saying you should). So its not realistic to expect validation or openness (like sharing a Kodak moment with the dog).  Their are feelings of betrayal here.

Returning the dog was undoing a wrong.  Agreeing to babysit the dog was very gracious.  And both will take some heat off - some.  You all signaled that you will try to work things out - a good move.

Keep your expectations real.  Stay away from comments like "I know that you care about her and in learning to care for her you will learn to care for yourself."  It will make this easier.  It's was enough to say "I know that you care about her"

[AJMahari]

Be very careful not to set this up to be a high conflict, high cost, high stress divorce.  They can get that way fast and it's hard to stop it once it starts.  Anything that you and your spouse can agree on via the attorneys and not have a judge involved in will save you money.

I think that however well-intentioned your words are here that it is not an accurate representation to caution that this situation will "set this up to be a high conflict, high cost, high stress divorce." There is a history that along with the BPD husband involved that already are in the mix as to how high conflict or not this divorce may be.

BPD or not, that would upset anyone.

This is a very good point. But, at what point does one have to consider the welfare of a dog, whether or not it is being neglected? I happen to also be a dog trainer and a dog should not be in crate for 9, 10, 11, 12+ hours. In some places that would be considered cruelty and/or neglect at worst and at best it is not healthy for well-balanced dog. Dogs are social animals (and despite the fact that I have Asperger's) I have 3 dogs and in my work with dogs, as a professional dog trainer, I totally understand from an experiential and emotional point of view that the "pack mentality of dogs" means that they need reasonable human companionship and to have their needs met. Social, bonding, and exercise needs are very much a part of what dogs also need. And in as much as anyone may be upset in such a situation, the welfare of the dog was in question.

Yes, many dogs sit in crates, for periods of time while their owners are working or what have you. But, the issue is the amount of crate time versus exercise needs, bodily function release so dog is not stressed holding it too long or not being able to hold it any longer and then sitting in it. I hope not too many dogs live in crates. It's one thing to have an open crate that a dog, after trained to be able to be trusted out in the house (or in a smaller room) with an open door that they can come and go from. It's another thing to have a dog in a crate more than 8 hours and even 8 hours regularly is stressful for many dogs. Dogs do need structure and routine.

[Want2know]

As to not hijack this thread, I would like to bring us all back to the matter at hand. 

Minkmink came here to post about a situation that was not handled well.  The feedback given was to help bring her to a more rational, fair mind.  If there was neglect with her dog, the proper authorities should have been contacted. Any other action would be seen as emotionally driven and adding to the drama that can lead to a high conflict divorce.

I respect those who have shared their views in this thread, along with the subsequent addition from Ms. Mahari.  She is certainly entitled to respond, as her client shared the advice she garnered from her.

Whatever the outcome, I would venture to say that we all want the least amount of stress for you, minkmink, and to continue to offer you advice to keep you centered, as much as possible.   

[Rose1]

This seems to have gone rather crazy. Maybe because you feel you "stole" the dog. However the dog is a marital asset and whether it is living at your place or at his it's still a marital asset until it's fate is determined by the court - nothing more.  There is nothing to say you or he should be looking after it. So you found it crated and not living in the best of arrangements and took it to look after it - so what exactly? It's not stealing despite some here who seem to feel that it is. It is seeing a poor situation and taking care of it. Your ex has choices too - he could be taking care of it better. I wonder what would have happened should you have gone to the animal shelter or spca - sometimes their reaction to a mistreated animal is stronger than the court's reaction to a mistreated human. He may consider himself fortunate that you looked after the dog instead of alerting the authorities.  Crating any dog for that long is poor management in anyone's language i would think.  Stop blaming yourself - you are trying to be fair and yet you are also dealing with a poor situation for your dog. See how he reacts about giving him back for you to look after and in the meantime he is getting time with your dog as are you and that seems to me to be a good thing.  All else is perception imo.

edited - I guess what I'm trying to say is take the emotion because it is a loved pet out of it. If this was a ming vase worth all your combined family fortune, and you left it packed in bubble wrap in a crate, then came back later and found it unwrapped lying in a pile of rubble would you leave it there or would you move it to a safe place? Would anyone even say the slightest thing about you taking a marital asset and preserving it when it was being mis-handled? Likely not even rate a mention. Because this is a pet it gets all emotive but the reality is the same - it was being mistreated and you preserved it. Good for you.

Rose

[livednlearned]

I don't know if this thread started off somewhere else and got moved here... .  but it was on the family law board when I read it, and I've always found this particular board to be focused on members sharing their experiences with family courts. Some of the advice seems light on first-hand family court experience.

In that spirit, here's my experience:

What is happening is you are heading yourself into a messy, high conflict divorce that will be expensive and create a lot of anguish.  Using advice contrary to what your lawyer is suggesting should be avoided, and his non-response is something you might want to look at in a different light.

I know of no one leaving a high-conflict marriage who does not have a high-conflict divorce.  There is nothing more triggering than family courts to a person with BPD because family courts are by design adversarial. You step into a whole new level of BPD conflict and nothing you do can appease. In general, the more you try to appease, the worse it gets. It's better to start your way on the steep learning curve to assertiveness. Same goes for dealing with lawyers. If your lawyer takes a long time to respond, assert yourself. It is reasonable to expect your lawyer to respond within 48 business hours. Not responding means he is not responding, it is not a judgement about you or your case, and it needs to be addressed if it looks like a pattern. He works for you.

Your concerns about your dog's welfare during divorce is no different than how many of us react with our children. I trust your instincts. You did something very assertive. One thing that might help in heeding advice on the family law board: Advice from people who have not been through family law courts will be different from those who have. Advice will also be different from those who have experience with custody battles, because they last a long time and pull people deep inside family courts. We see more. Advice will also be different for those who have been falsely accused for domestic violence or child molestation or adultery. People who have had criminal charges laid against them do not mess around. The more experience a person has with family courts, the more likely the advice will recommend assertiveness and protecting you and your loved ones.

I am in an active custody battle that will likely last for the next 6 years. I have learned that there is a surprising amount of room for assertiveness within family courts. Retrieving a pet you are concerned about is small potatoes to a judge -- if it even gets to that point. Most likely, a judge (or both lawyers if you settle) will want to know if the pet was adopted during the marriage. If yes, then she will want to know about the ability of both parties to take care of the pet. If Mink can care for the dog in more humane ways than her ex, the judge will consider that. Who trained the dog? Who walks the dog most? Who takes the dog to the vet? These are all fairly standard ways for the court to make a decision about something that is common. If the judge sees the dog as property, and wants to split things down the middle, she may look at other assets and take that into account. Ex gets the motorcycle, Mink gets the dog, etc. If you and your ex agree to sharing custody of your dog, you may find, as many of us with children have found, that your ex wants 50/50 but then doesn't take his full time.

It is not only common for one spouse to retrieve pets and household belongings, it actually minimizes the court conflict. For example: A judge gets involved and tells you and your ex that you must divide the property. Then your ex changes the locks, or sells your furniture, or puts it out on the lawn during a storm, or wrecks it, and you go back to court to tell the judge your ex did not do what he was supposed to. Then the judge has to tell your ex to pay you for the damage he caused. Then you wait for a check and it never comes. So you go back to court. No lawyer will tell you to take the marital property, but no one will punish you for it -- it just factors into how things get settled with equitable distribution. The moving company that helped me remove half my belongings (including my dog) knew exactly what was happening. They do it all the time.

[KateCat]

Most likely, a judge (or both lawyers if you settle) will want to know if the pet was adopted during the marriage. If yes, then she will want to know about the ability of both parties to take care of the pet. If Mink can care for the dog in more humane ways than her ex, the judge will consider that. Who trained the dog? Who walks the dog most? Who takes the dog to the vet?

There's even an episode of Judge Judy (which is technically a "small claims" court, making only judgments regarding property, if I am not mistaken) that involves this sort of judgment. . . . After conflicting oral testimony of "ownership" is heard, and absent any written supporting documents, court personnel bring the dog into the courtroom and it makes its way without hesitation to the plaintiff. Judge Judy shrugs her shoulders and says, "It's his dog."