ignore what we in the regular world would call "rudeness?"

[patientandclear]

Most of you are familiar with my intimate-friendship-with-uBPDex-with-whom-I-am-still-in-love story, so I won't rehash the background here ... .  for this question, he's a pwBPD whom I am not trying to rescue or fix, who comes & goes freely in our r/s & seems to appreciate that, who makes occasional surprising gestures of wanting to increase the intimacy & reality content of our connection, but who also needs, and takes, significant distance, especially when things get too close & he starts to rely or depend on me too much.

I'm wondering how to respond to communication (or non-communication) that in ordinary life we would consider rude. MaybeSo wrote one time that she spent hours trying to decide how to respond to comments that hurt her, only to realize that her pwBPD was just sorta awkward, careless & unaware--not meaning to be uncaring, just clueless. That seems insightful--maybe a lot of this stuff can just be ignored rather than actively dealt with. And in general in this r/s, we do well b/c I do not criticize, confront or ask for more--I just adjust my behavior according to what he is able to give at any given time (this is why we are in a friendship not a romantic partnership, as I don't see being able to do that as lovers).  But I would appreciate guidance, because I am also mindful of the maxim that we get what we ask for, we teach people how to treat us, etc.

The specific current instances: we saw each other three days ago & as always, it was great. Close, intense, warm. Warm followup texts that night, ending when he stopped responding--very unusual for him. Then, warm texts the next day, including an interesting quote he sent. That night I emailed asking what he thought the quote meant. His response yesterday was two sentences: "too much for email, especially after (spending hours w/computer support people on a problem) ... .  it's arich piece of writing!"

It hurt when I read this--VERY unusual, maybe unprecedented, for him to reply so dismissively to smething I wrote; & "too much for email" leaves me at a loss, since we only see each other every two weeks or so, we no longer talk by phone, and email is where we typically process complex ideas.  Also, he shared this quote w/me, & all I asked was what it meant to him--odd that he would then not want to tell me why h liked it or found it significant.

He has been explaining recently that he finds me "naive" (not in a mean way), saying that I give him the benefit of the doubt in instances where it isn't warranted (as well as other examples), & I wonder if part of him is wondering when I am ever going to call him on stuff like this. Insteade, I ignore & wait for the moment to pass, & never express dissatisfaction, which he handles very poorly, at least in the moment.

Yet, again, our r/s has been going well in part b/c I don't expect him to behave otherwise & I don't try to change him.

Thoughts? Just ignore & move on? If I do, in days, he will be back fully engaged with me. Or try to address the oddness and sort of rudeness of his reply?

Needless to say, if I ever responded to him in this way, he would notice--he'd regard it as a sure sign that I was rejecting him.  And when we were first together, he was the opposite--completely responsive & attentive. But both of those points sort of lead nowhere in the analysis of how I should handle this sort of thing from him ... .  we are not going back to the initial idealization stage, & we are not symmetrical & I have to deal w/things differently in this r/s than he does, for it to work.

Sigh. This is hard work.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Rockylove]

This IS hard!  Perhaps because I'm so new to all of this I constantly look for hidden meanings in things that are both said and unsaid.  I think I need to relax a bit more... .  not necessarily drop my guard completely~~be aware, but not over think everything either.

[mitti]

I don't think I have any advice to give in your specific situation. I don't know your story that well and I would feel out of my depth. So I'll share my experiences. My bf also often answers in a way most people would consider rude, and I find it hurtful. He is that way with me, and sometimes with his children, perhaps with people at work but never with people in his social circle. No surprise, he doesn't know them well.

Since we started CT together I have occasionally, and only when I felt there was room to do so, asked him why he expressed himself in that manner, or I might ask him to clarify what he meant and add how I perceived his response. Or I might ask if he is feeling irritated. Almost every time it has stunned him that I would think so. Sometimes he is aware that he sounds rude and he might even apologize, or he will get even more irritated that I asked.

My point is that they aren't always aware of how they sound and if your pwBPD is anything like mine there may be space to ask him.

[KateCat]

He has been explaining recently that he finds me "naive" (not in a mean way), saying that I give him the benefit of the doubt in instances where it isn't warranted

Is there any possibility that this fellow (who sounds quite clever) is a past master at this game? That perhaps he is even thinking, "I can tell her exactly what I'm doing and still this woman--so desirable herself--will continue to pursue me?" If this were his general life pattern, mightn't you be a tasty morsel indeed? I could be very wrong here, but in reading your posts I sometimes think I'm in the middle of an 18th century French novel of sophisticated intellectual sadism, with a male hero named something like ":)orval." 

Would this fit with his past romantic history? Or does he really know not what he does?

[laelle]

My bf is the master of hurtful words.  He is from a VERY hostile environment and his friends are all pretty much like him.  He grew up with being abused and verbally assaulted.

Somethings you have to just not over analyse and let it go.  I can understand you being hurt that he didnt respond when you were going out of your way to be interested in the things he writes to you.  Honestly, I dont think he meant to hurt you, he simply had moved on to something else by then.  baffling sort they are.  My bf... .  tells me "I dont know what your on about"  talk about invalidating. He calls you naive probably because he worries about hurting you with his behavior.  My bf calls me lots of things, but I have mostly learned to consider the source and tease him back about it.  He tells me I act like a child... .  I say I know, and if you keep teasing me im going to cry.

and laugh about it.  It hurts sometimes, and sometimes I say... .  ouch that hurts... .  but then I drop it.  Normally he will come back with a smooth over sentence within a short while and I accept it.

Consider the source... .  let it go, or dont.  Either way its ok.    

Sounds like your doing a great job to me. 

[briefcase]

It's a balance, and sometimes a difficult balance.  We have to pick our battles, but we can't just become doormats to "keep the peace."  There is a time and way to raise these kids of issues, and we can't shrink from them.  Sometimes, things just have to be said for our own sakes. 

That said, in this particular case, his response was basically that it wasn't a good time (he was tired) or the right way (email) to have this conversation. I'm sure this was a disappointing response to hear.  Maybe just email back something like, "OK, give it some thought and we can talk about it the next time we get together."  See how he responds.  If he's dismissive of that response too, then you can raise that issue with him in a DEARMAN or SET format, depending on what you want to accomplish.

[DyingLove]

Man... .  I've just about had my fill of nasty, rude, loud, snyde, hurtful, thoughtless, double standard, and any other gosh darn reaction that a BPD person can dish out!

YES!  If you comment back... .  we are the ones that are so freaking wrong!  :)OUBLE STANDARD!  Whether they understand what is going on or not... .  it hurts, hurts, hurts and hurts!  I never used to raise my voice... .  now either I'm raising it or I just clam up solid and don't wanna talk because I know where it's gonna get me.  Then its: "Why won't you talk to me"?  Or: "I see you're not talking"!

Same old Sh*t, another day... .   My two cents!

[patientandclear]

Is there any possibility that this fellow (who sounds quite clever) is a past master at this game? That perhaps he is even thinking, "I can tell her exactly what I'm doing and still this woman--so desirable herself--will continue to pursue me?" If this were his general life pattern, mightn't you be a tasty morsel indeed? I could be very wrong here, but in reading your posts I sometimes think I'm in the middle of an 18th century French novel of sophisticated intellectual sadism, with a male hero named something like ":)orval." 

Would this fit with his past romantic history? Or does he really know not what he does?

Wow.  Fascinating.  Thank you so much for asking that question ... .  I am going to ponder this.

His past history is full of short intense passionate encounters that end in heartbreak for the woman & confusion for him.  Typically he goes into counseling after he suddenly breaks up with someone out of the blue, and the counselor tells him various unhelpful things like maybe he just hasn't found the right woman yet, or no, it's not weird that sex freaks him out ... .  after he left me, he saw a counselor who, perhaps for the first time, was identifying deeper dysfunction, and who recommended he NOT get back together with me when we were contemplating it.  I think, though, he did not continue with that & instead decided the problem was I was not the right woman after all, because he immediately started pursuing his ex gf -- despite declarations that I was the most amazing love he'd known & he had no idea what caused his emotions to go haywire about us, and maybe he needed to explore being alone.

More recently though, he has (as far as I know) been alone since we reconnected.  He seems to be working on defining himself without relying on a partner or prospective partner to rescue him or give meaning to his life -- for the first time ever -- at 50.

However, it is also true that he compartmentalizes information, doesn't disclose inconvenient facts, and is super smart.

The one thing I will say is that I am not pursuing him.  At all.  He has even grumbled about this -- noticed that I never initiate getting together, and asked that I do so, which I've posted about -- but I feel emotionally safer & less exposed not pursuing him.  I respond to him, basically (this is not rigidly true -- I might initiate email or texting if something comes up that I want to tell him about -- but in terms of getting together or repairing gaps, I basically leave that to him.  I will NOT pursue him.)

But I guess that doesn't answer your fundamental question, which I take to be -- is there sincerity here on his part, is this a genuine bond, or is he consuming my love and attention in a really selfish way?

And of course, I really don't know for sure.  I do see him making surprising gestures that make it feel real, and risky to him.  Introducing me to his family, asking to meet mine, offering to travel to see me rather than our usual routine where we meet conveniently for him, and so on.  That feels genuine.  And what we talk about is undoubtedly of genuine importance to him.

Wondering what you see in my posts (and totally, truly interested -- not defensive at all & wondering if you are right!) that makes it feel like this is manipulative and sort of sadistic?

Thank you KC!

P&C

[elemental]

Mine drifts in and out. When he is available on MSN, for example, he will make a comment, I see it, make one back. Often a whole day of slow conversation like this takes place, as he has IM on his phone and does other things, like work and travel while he talks.

I used to get upset that I was not getting his full attention, but he actually will relax and more conversation will take place if I simply allow it to happen.

I don't know about your guy. I agree with the poster that this does seem like a literary event playing out, as you are very eloquent.

Lately I, myself, have developed a streak of cynicism, probably I am tired out on these things, but I would never put this kind of effort into another person other than my BPD. Other people ( maybe BPD) start these sorts of behaviors and I just check them off as someone not worth my time mostly.

I think maybe you are simply coming up against yourself internally, wanting this to be more than you are allowing it to be right now. Who could blame you.  

[KateCat]

this does seem like a literary event playing out, as you are very eloquent.

This would be how I see the relationship for both of you at this point. As still a seductive relationship, for both parties. . . . And probably even for readers like me, as you are very eloquent and this is like reading chapters of a serialized story. Maybe it's not at all a game between very evenly-matched players. But I think that him telling you you are naive about him, specifically, gives it that vibe. (Oh yeah, and also the fact that the content of your exchanges is intimate and all about whether love exists and so on.)

But what's the harm? He's a 50-year-old lifelong bachelor? no kids? And you are already a mom and have your own life? I think the only risk would be in him succeeding in communicating to you the notion that he is, for the first time ever, committed to self-examination and personal change, in reliance on which you stay in his life and don't move on in your own. That might be a bit "gamey" on his part.

But if he's newly in therapy, I take back all of the above musings.

[KateCat]

Oh, I just read a portion of your original post. He has adult kids? So he's had a real life with real interpersonal commitments?

Now I'm pretty sure I'm reading this whole thing wrong. 

[patientandclear]

He is not in therapy (that I know of), and if his relationships with his kids are unproblematic, it would be the only relationships in his life of which that is true.

So ... .  don't back off your theory so readily!

This has given me a lot to think about.  It is a relationship of continuing mutual seduction, to a point, no question.  But another way of saying that is that we keep trying to appeal to and please one another, within boundaries that we are both respecting.  So like you say, not sure that there is necessarily harm in that, IF it doesn't prevent me from exploring other things, which I don't think that it is.

But your notion that he is sadistic in some way ... .  I'm interested in that because even though 80% of the time I feel he is genuine and trying to form a real bond, and sometimes critically examines himself in the course of that, and is trying to operate with integrity ... .  about 20% of the time, and especially when I read accounts of pwBPD who have a collection of people to whom they are never accountable and into whose lives they come & go at will, intimate while they are there, then totally absent ... .  I start to feel like this is Bluebeard's castle and at first I was the new woman who got the run of the front rooms and to whom everything seemed fine, until she looked into the back room where the other women were locked away, and now I am one of those women, being used as a substitute for examining his real barriers to intimacy.

It's interesting -- the one thing we have not talked productively about since we split up is love and romance.  When I have ventured that it seems like he is afraid to trust love from people who really know him, his reaction is "uh, I don't really know why you'd say that; I value the experiences that gave me my scars; this is just how life goes, isn't it? not even sure love is possible."  (Another example of statements that are extremely painful for me to read, but where he is probably unaware of that.)  Though other times he has shared that he used to lose himself completely in relationships and couldn't even tell who he was individually, and now he is trying to define who he is individually and that seems to preclude a relationship.  Sometimes insightful, sometimes not; sometimes open, sometimes not.

***

As to the question of whether to point out that his email wasn't very thoughtful, I think I will just let it go, as several of you suggested, and consider it an example of his skills deficit in understanding how things will appear to others.

[elemental]

If I didn't know he had BPD and the details of your story, from an outside view, the possibility of other women "hidden" away would be very realistic to me.

[patientandclear]

Yes, they could be there.  I only think they're not because we so often are in communication throughout the evening and at night, and because I think the very problem that causes him to freak out whenever we get very close will continue to implode any potential intimate relationship he has, and because he seems to have entered a sort of monastic phase where he adheres to a rigid schedule, works all the time, and is trying to stay away from close entanglements because they threaten his progress with his self-definition project.  I honestly cannot imagine him allowing anyone else in his apartment these days -- he is that rigid about his environment and people not messing with his plans/ways/routine.

But I don't know for sure.  And that is a timely reminder of another reason why I think I can only be his friend, not more ... .  I couldn't stand the anxiety of worrying about that if we were trying to be partners.  It would dismantle me.  And I simply wouldn't be certain.  When we were dating, he reached out casually to his ex gf (of whom he had seemingly had no particular thoughts for months and months) on a trip we took together which was about as intimate and special as any time I've ever spent with another person.  You all know the pattern.  So if we were being partners I would never feel confident that he was only with me.  I think that would really tear me up.

[elemental]

It does tear you up  :'(

[patientandclear]

I know.  I want it to stop for you--one way or another!   

[123Phoebe]

Then, warm texts the next day, including an interesting quote he sent. That night I emailed asking what he thought the quote meant. His response yesterday was two sentences: "too much for email, especially after (spending hours w/computer support people on a problem) ... .  it's arich piece of writing!"

It hurt when I read this--VERY unusual, maybe unprecedented, for him to reply so dismissively to smething I wrote; & "too much for email" leaves me at a loss, since we only see each other every two weeks or so, we no longer talk by phone, and email is where we typically process complex ideas.  Also, he shared this quote w/me, & all I asked was what it meant to him--odd that he would then not want to tell me why h liked it or found it significant.

Hello P&C

Your guy sounds rather provocative... .    Not a big deal though, as long as you don't make it one   I mean, he sends an interesting quote then doesn't wish to discuss it through email because he was busy, okay, let it go...   Or, did the quote mean anything significant to you?  Did you find anything enriching about it that you'd like to discuss with him?  Your feelings about it?  If not, okay.

That's the thing with email, there's no body language or tone of voice involved, and as much as we think we understand what the other person is trying to convey, things get lost in translation.

Look at how many sentences have been provided on this thread concerning his 2 - "too much for email, especially after (spending hours w/computer support people on a problem) ... .  it's arich piece of writing!"

All the other sentences on this thread are our own $.02, speculation, feelings that come up from other posters that have experienced similar, etc etc etc... .    All because your guy didn't respond in an expected way.

That's an awful lot of focus being put on something that might not even mean much, ya know?

Or might it?

I cannot stress this enough, because I do it too... .    When our minds start doing flip-flop acrobats trying to sort something out that someone said, did, typed... , either address it with that person if it's really bothering you or do something for yourself that takes the focus off of it. 

Our minds can be our own worst enemies.  And I hope this doesn't come off as invalidating, because I don't mean it to.  It's just that we being the way we are (partners of pwBPD) tend to overthink things.  Speaking for myself now, I tend to get too intellectual about something rather than getting in touch with my emotions about it.  You felt dismissed.  It's okay to tell him that!  Then let it go... .  

[maria1]

Hi P & C

I can't help thinking you asked for something from him and he didn't give it. It's almost like he's reminding you not to ask anything of him. And isn't this typical of a certain type of push? Just when you find you're on seemingly solid ground for a moment they have to trip you over and remind you there's a ditch you nearly fell into because you weren't looking where you were going.

I agree with 123phoebe that we are all over-thinking this. What is stopping you from telling him his words upset you, in a dearman or set?

I find the stuff in here about whether he is sadistic very interesting. I wonder whether my BPDex gets something out of his nasty behaviour but I really do not know. The thing is I don't see it toward me but I hear him talking about other women he is involved with as 'too innocent' or 'a train wreck'. He blames their upset when he isn't very nice to them on them- it causes him to be more horrible to them. It's chilling because I can see the way an abuser blames his victim, but the abuse we are talking about is subtle and wouldn't necessarily be defined as abuse. In an argument it would be two way.

I would tell my ex to f*** off if he was rude sometimes and sometimes I would take it. Sometimes I would make a joke of it. The times I just took it he ramped it up.

[Cardinals in Flight]

I would tell my ex to f*** off if he was rude sometimes and sometimes I would take it. Sometimes I would make a joke of it. The times I just took it he ramped it up.

I do this in my dreams!

Seriously though, when can we just say, "that was rude!", yanno?  Everything has to be well thought out and planned, another thing I'm tired of... .  

CiF

[seeking balance]

Have you read the book "Loving Someone with Borderline Personality Disorder?"

Basically, this would fall under boundaries and using DEARMAN to communicate your needs if it has you this upset.

[coworkerfriend]

P&C after reading your first post, my inclination is to not overthink or read too much into it.  I know, at times, my pwBPD has responded so abruptly and has been down right rude to me that it felt like he slapped me in the face.

I would spend so much energy thinking if I should tell him, explain how I felt or just let him know it wasn't ok for him to talk to me like that.

I would feel bad and expect better from him.

As I have been working on myself and communicating more effectively, I am trying to let rude comments pass right by.  He never remembers them because he is too consumed in what he is thinking about. I would overthink and process things for days on end.   I sort of figured out that I was spending the time making them matter in our relationship.  I don't know if that sentence makes any sense at all. 

I am working at accepting him as he is.  He can be crude, rude and abrupt.  He can be kind, thoughtful, sweet and loving.  He is smart, funny and who he is.  I lost myself for years trying to make it different.  I am trying to get myself back. 

I think you are such an eloquent, smart, strong person.  I give you so much credit for the work you have put into yourself and your relationship.

[KateCat]

I agree, P&C, that it's "not about the email." (Although I have a feverish enough imagination to construct a Bluebeard's Cyber Castle out of an email exchange, probably.) I think it's about this:

after he left me, he saw a counselor who . . . was identifying deeper dysfunction, and who recommended he NOT get back together with me when we were contemplating it.

I think it's the idea that a professional has had some input into this situation that suggests this will not be satisfactory for either one of you, although both of you may be drawn to the relationship.

For me, personally, it's the idea that a 50-year-old guy could be so "confused" as to declare you the love of his life and then back away this much . . . but still want you as a friend. No wonder you can't stop trying to figure it out.

[Grey Kitty]

My thought is that you can "ignore" the rudeness which is obviously hurtful to you if you want to. Or you can confront him on it in some way. (Something like SET or DEARMAN would probably work better than just "calling him on it." and expecting him to get it, as you have noticed in other regards.

It is up to you to decide how important this specific issue is to you.

OTOH, my suspicion is that he needs to back off and get space at times for his own reasons... .  and he finds ways to do it. And he (at least sub-consciously) IS aware that he has found a way to push one of your buttons when he does it. You won't get anywhere blaming him for it... .  and even less by confronting him on it... .  but I think that a pwBPD finds things that really do hurt to do way too well for it to be just random luck.

Good luck with tough choices! 

[maria1]

I have to add that one great difficulty in trying to figure out what people with ppd traits say is that they don't necessarily tell the truth. So we go round in circles because we cannot possibly believe that they are lying. I can't waste time on it any more because my ex cannot tell the truth but I absolutely believed everything he told me.

What if there was no computer problem? What if there are other women? What if he calls you 'naive' because you believe him?

I don't mean to say that he is lying and I don't mean to be harsh because I so admire and respect your ability to be there for this man. I'm just saying lying is a part of the disorder but for some reason you don't question the factual basis of what he tells you. I would have bet my children's lives on my ex being honest- absolutely.

I part of your radical acceptance is to not question the facts that's fine- but the difficulty then becomes you can feel bad in situations like this because you, and all of us, think he's doing one thing, saying a straight forward, 'I'm busy with other things' when he might not be.

Don't know if I'm making sense here- just don't beat yourself up for wanting to be the best you possibly can when he may not be coming at it from the same angle

[laelle]

Think about a time when you told a lie... .   a small lie.  Is it a fact that because you lied about that one thing that everything else you have ever said or will say is a lie?  

In my opinion a BPD will lie for reasons that we can not comprehend and probably dont even understand themselves.  They wage a constant battle with self hatred, low self esteem and even their own right to exist.  They lie not necessarily to hide things from you, but to keep them from having to look at themselves and find themselves flawed.   If you dont see it, they can ignore it too.  We automatically think they are up to something because we dont get why they lied. To us it may be something that there would be no reason to lie about.  To them its a good or bad issue because as we know they cant see grey.

[maria1]

Yes I do get the reasons for the lies and I don't mean to criticise the lies because I understand that people coming from that defensive place don't actually see a choice. I don't blame my ex for lying.

What I'm trying to say is we can't base our reactions on an assumption that the person with BPD is telling the truth. That can cause us to flip around trying to get our own reactions sorted and blaming ourselves when it may be that we are reacting to the words and the words aren't real.

P & C's man is saying he hasn't got time to respond- that hurts P & C because they were sharing something deep and she was in the moment of sharing that when he says 'can't do that now, I'm in another moment here'.

All I'm saying is whatever moment he is in it may not be one that is absorbing because of computer fixing.

P & C,  if you open yourself up to the possibility that there is a different reality to the one he has told you, that he isn't actually on his own, it may help you to stay grounded in what you are trying to do here.

It is highly unlikely that someone with BPD traits stays alone in the way he says he is. But if it's true it make you feel special and validated because he chooses you to share himself with, and you care deeply for him. Without blaming him or you, this situation is allowing you to feel chosen and special to him. He cares so much that he will do this quasi relationship even though he wants really to be alone. That is meeting a need in you to believe that what he and you shared was special. I get that because I need the same with my BPD r/s.

But is highly unlikely that my ex didn't have all sorts of other 'friendships' going on that he didn't fully reveal to me. He needed them to survive. But I'm still not sure and never will be. He won't reveal that because he knows me intuitivly- he knows that's the thing that will stop me feeling special.

However when he tells me he is doing a certain thing I don't take that as fact any more, that's all. For example he recently emailed me and said he was spending some time with his brother. My thoughts- excellent, good for him- he is working on himself, he is making an effort.

What he didn't say was that he was with his new girlfriend and discussing with his brother and others whether he should marry her, 3 months in.

So... .  I made a judgement on him based on what I thought was a fact. There was no lying involved. But the real facts were different. The facts impact on my feelings. And the facts impact on your feelings P & C. Because a little rudeness is one thing, the same words if the situation is altogether different is abusive and may cause you pain.

[patientandclear]

Lots to absorb in the last several posts.

I'm not making assumptions about whether he is with someone else.  He may be.  He certainly has other friendships that he relies on, one in particular with a woman married to a close friend of his.  Off limits for a romance, so ideal for him.  I'm a little more difficult because there isn't that per se prohibition, so he constantly has to police the boundaries, or he would, if I were challenging them -- but I'm not.

So no, I won't be particularly hurt if he is seeing someone else.  I can't imagine it will last more than a few weeks.  He is SO brittle and has such a hard time with anyone getting past his surface layer.  KateCat, you are right that the core hurt for me in this situation is that he said he was deeply in love, he showed he was agonizing about leaving me, we are still this close, and yet, we cannot be more.  It's really really hard.

But in this situation, I don't think there is any question of "lying."  He wasn't saying he didn't have enough time to answer, he just chose not to.  And that is unusual.  And I understand enough about BPD by now to know that it is probably coming more from a place of hurt than indifference.  I don't know what caused the hurt, and the question is, should I ask?  Or should I let it go, like coworkerfriend advises, and let him work it out on his own, since objectively, I've given him mountains of evidence that I care for him?

What is pushing me to ask about it is that he has said to me in the past that I should tell him if he is doing something that bothers me.  He's taken risks in this relationship and if I hang back silently here, I am not perhaps living up to what we both deserve in terms of honest communication.

I am considering sending this, and would appreciate comments from you BPD whisperers out there -- is this OK?

Hi.

Did I hurt or offend you in some way?  I ask because this response is so unlike you.

I was asking what the quote meant to you because I care what you think, and it seemed meaningful to you, and I realized I hadn't really asked you why, when you sent it.

It's not necessary that we ever discuss the quote, and I completely understand being tired or out of time or not in the mood to write.  But this response to something we would normally discuss just shuts me down completely, and I can't recall you ever doing that, which makes me wonder if something is bothering you.

I was going to just let this pass, figuring we would repair what is wrong -- if there is something -- eventually, but then I remembered that you asked me to tell you if there was something I was concerned about, and it seems to me that silence is not the best way to do that.  So, I'm asking!

Did you get the computer problem sorted out?  How are things?

[maria1]

Im sorry I'm not sure lying is even the right word and I've ended up moving on a tangent I didn't mean to.

Just trying to say we make assumptions and take offence or get hurt based on believing a certain fact base that we act from as human beings. We operate from a solid base- pwBPD don't have that same solid base because their base is an emotional one and the emotions are constantly shifting. One of the difficulties i find in communicating in BPD world is that I can't assume anything is fact. I think I was picking up more on his calling you naive which seems quite hurtful when you have been so supportive.

I like your statement to him here- you communicate your feelings and I think that is  important.

My pwBPD would just tell me to stop over analysing but it would not stop me from saying it these days!

[laelle]

I find that the shorter the sweeter, but thats just my opinion. Not to make a generalization, In my experience men dont really absorb things the same way we do. The longer the more taxing.  

[patientandclear]

Thanks Maria & Laelle. Laelle, what do you think of "is everything OK?" inquiries--as opposed to just waiting for things to normalize on their own? I have tended to just let him sort out his feelings when he pulls away like this--in part due to Maria's point that he may not even be able to accurately identify what IS going on with his own feelings, so asking may not yield any real information.

But I'm thinking of asking now for a couple reasons. One, he has asked me to say something if he does something that bothers me. So just burying all my reactions doesn't honor that. Though I'm not sure he really wants or is prepared to deal wit what he asked for, too.

We also don't necessarily move forward if I just pretend not to notice strange reactions. Maybe these reactions are significant, & here I am just acting as if they never happened.

Finally, I was just realizing that these breaks (where he abruptly shuts down a conversation) are becoming more, not less, common, as we go deeper in this "friendship" and cover more intimate ground. So not sure things are improving with time & a hands off approach by me.

In our talk on Monday, he told me he is probably moving to another city.  He's said that in the past too, but I think this is a more concrete, imminent plan. In the past, this would have sent me spinning. This time, I calmly asked about his plans in a supportive way, & didn't act all hurt or sad. I wonder if this itself has hurt him--my apparent indifference to him leaving.