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Author Topic: Furious with AA for their treatment of mental health and my ex  (Read 518 times)
stoic83
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« on: February 02, 2013, 05:00:26 PM »

Hey all,

My exwBPD relapsed at my house and then painted me black and everyone around her blamed me due to her smear tactics. I wrote her sponsor and shamed her for pushing down my ex's psych systems and said that she needs therapy and that for someone with her type of issues the shame of AA and relapse can kill them!

All these talks of suicide and incest and threats towards me and physical abuse... .  Yeah she might have been "sober" but who could abstain from self-medicating if they are suffering from an untreated mental illness?

I am disgusted and feel like my ex got cheated by the system... .  and in turn I had to take the blame for her shameless behavior and relapse. I'm very angry at how my ex and others are being treated by this organization. It's just another addiction/obsession for my ex to medicate herself with and take her mind of her core problem which is not addiction, its her lack of impulse control due to having a treatable mental disorder. plus all the NPD and aspd men there... .  she is a sitting duck. Luckily I think she is hanging with this older woman now(that she showered with at my house behind my back)... .  she told me she is afraid this woman wants to use her for her inheritance (her dad just died). In any case, im 30 days out and counting... .  

Feeling some anger right now and don't get out of the house at all! Gotta love this feeling!



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« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2013, 06:52:39 PM »

Why is your ex spending time at your house? Is this in your best interest?
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« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2013, 07:08:08 PM »

Why is your ex spending time at your house? Is this in your best interest?

I kicked her out at the end of december... after she got out of chemical detox. I tried to do it in as nice a way as possible due to the fact her dad just died and was painting me black and Im sure is in a lot of pain. She was extremely abusive/manipulative/neglectful to me in the two months she was here (well after a 2-3 week honeymoon period) ... .  (i finally agreed to live with her after four years and multiple requests on her part, her fathers death through me in to a heavy FOG where I felt I was responsible for her getting through this).

I figured she was 15 months sober, and I was worried she was going to attempt suicide during the grief process for her dad (NPD? ASPD? BPD? and molested or r**** her and/or her sister?)

In any case, I have been NC for about 30 days and this is it for me... .  

Enough is enough... .  but I feel that AA was holding her back from therapy and/or medication and that makes me angry.

She is still my exgfwBPD but I do not have nor desire to have contact with her and am done, finito, accepting of the fact that she is disordered and not going to recover from BPD whilst in aa and focusing on what they want her to focus on for her sobriety.

AA teaches her to be a phony, evangelical christian, and encourages her to hang out with other societal degenerates who are trying to get better... .  but let's face it there are a lot of untreated mentally ill people in aa, i am sure there are also people who are doing AA and getting treatment for mental illness, but that is not what happened with my exgfwBPD.

If anything my relationship with a mentally ill woman has left me disgusted with the current system in place. She isn't going to listen to me... .  i'm a man and was her lover... .  so I told her sponsor what the chemical detox told me... that she needs CBT/DBT/ and emotional trauma hypnosis therapy to process her traumas... .  pushing it down and going to AA meetings is not going to cut it.

in any case, in detaching from her... .  I am sharing what was a major cause in my side of the broken relationship... .  that I became negative towards AA, which was helping her to lead a better life... .  but not helping her to get treatment for her mental illness that is denied and pushed down in aa

In the meantime I am putting up with all of this crap, because the people who were supposed to be helping her... .  are aarogant aa-nazis who think that psychology is "bad" and that "the big book" is the only way.

Is there anyone else out there who has struggled with AA teaching an exwBPD to push down their symptoms to conform to AA? That AA's rigidity and abandonment of anyone who "falls off the wagon" could cause someone wBPD to have abandonment rage and hurt themselves or someone else?

I might just be projecting, but I am pissed off at her sponsor and family for not pushing her to get some serious treatment... .  but maybe she hid her most serious symptoms from everyone else.

I don't know... .  

best,

Stoic
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« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2013, 09:01:56 PM »

Where is her responsibility for her own well being in your story? Doesn't AA have enough on its plate?
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stoic83
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« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2013, 09:20:05 PM »

Someone with her condition isn't necessarily capable of making competent decisions for themselves, especially when having their sponsor tell them to push down "her symptoms and pretend like they aren't there." I understand what you are saying, but it seems that her sister isn't being treated for her bipolar disorder either. My exwBPD is impressionable, mirrors others, and should probably be in a controlled environment. I see her being extremely vulnerable to control and to making emotional decisions based on the validation of others. I also see her family being toxic and abusive towards her, and it seems that her particular group in AA has encouraged her to become closer with her family... which I see as a major problem in this particular instance. In any case, I think she has learned helplessness and is at the mercy of a program that discourages "labeling"... .  etc... .  etc. My exgfwBPD is convinced that religion and a higher power is going to solve all of her problems... .  it's disturbing, but not my problem anymore... .  in any case, it's what i take away from the situation. That AA helps her gain some introspection and complete the 12 steps and engage in group therapy... .  but knowing my ex wBPD fully well she can totally "fake" her way through that and needs personalized attention. I was surprised that she was not seriously encouraged to be in treatment for her psychological symptoms which must have been witnessed more or less by these other people. She was convinced that she was just an addict... .  it was only during moments of clarity that she discussed the fact that mental illness ran in her family, and usually some time after her periods of "sharing" she would rage at me for having this knowledge. Her dad (whom I strongly believe sexually abused her) and her sister all went to the same AA group. I don't understand how anyone can be fully honest in front of their family when they have been abusive and neglectful... .  i understand that I'm looking to blame something else besides my ex for the rs disintegrating... .  but I am also concerned about the lack of awareness and the stigma about mental illness. I have become passionate about this issue after seeing how much pain both my exwBPD and I have endured, and it is hard to blame somebody who is disabled... .  even when they need to be accountable for their actions.

I bought her several books on BPD a long time ago before I was aware that it might be wrong of me to diagnose her or tell her i suspect mental illness. (i think i was 24 or 25 at the time). In any case, she seemed to agree with the diagnosis to some extent... .  but i don't think she was ever diagnosed with BPD for insurance purposes.

Anyways, now she inherited a lot of money and hopefully she goes and receives some therapy.

Eventhough I am out of this rs, and know I can not be with her... .  I do love her and hope that she finds a better path than the one she was on when we ended our toxic and dysfunctional relationship and stops going back to toxic advisers for reassurance, which is clearly something I suffer from myself... .  repeating this relationship several times!

Best

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« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2013, 07:45:30 AM »

Where is her responsibility for her own well being in your story? Doesn't AA have enough on its plate?

THIS.

I am a member of Al Anon, the group for those who have an alcoholic family member. In BOTH groups, there is a saying about the Three C's: "I didn't CAUSE it, I can't CONTROL it, I can't CURE it."

The sponsor or AA didn't "cause" the relapse, nor can they control it... .  EVER.


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« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2013, 09:48:52 AM »

Where is her responsibility for her own well being in your story? Doesn't AA have enough on its plate?

THIS.

I am a member of Al Anon, the group for those who have an alcoholic family member. In BOTH groups, there is a saying about the Three C's: "I didn't CAUSE it, I can't CONTROL it, I can't CURE it."

The sponsor or AA didn't "cause" the relapse, nor can they control it... .  EVER.

Okay... .  I have been to al anon before and I found it to be helpful. I'm not trying to say that her sponsor or family caused the relapse... .  

I am trying to say that AA doesn't deal with mental illness... .  you see my exgfwBPD doesn't think about her mental issues. She thinks she's just an alcoholic or an addict... .  in fact her sponsor tried to tell her and her sister that they were alcoholics and addicts when they were little because they had a very shame-based mentality.

Im pretty sure this isn't because my exgfwBPD was an alcoholic when she was 5 years old and scribbled outside the lines... .  

During moments of clarity my exwBPD knew she was suffering from a lot more than just alcohlolism and addiction... .  but it became convenient for her to use that label... .  seeming as she has BPD, identifying and labeling herself as an "alcoholic" seems extremely harmful for someone with this disorder. Seeming as she suffers from a core identity disturbance.

In any case, not my problem any more... .  but knowing that my exwBPD is very impressionable I have limited hope for her to find fulfillment through this organization... .  and the organization encourages her to only be around other people in the program which I think is terrible for someone who mirrors and looks at all these ex crack heads, people who smoke on their babies heads, people who try to take advantage of her.

Im sorry... .  but I view my exwBPD as an extreme version of an adult child, therefore yes... .  I am holding AA and her parents accountable. Hopefully my extremely impressionable exwBPD rises above the "cult-like" mentality so that she can receive personalized treatment for her personality disorder and have a hope at living a more fulfilling life, widening her range of emotions... .  and exercising left-brain, reasoning capabilities.

Quitting that "stinkin thinkin" seems like a terrible idea for someone wBPD. She needs to use her left brain MORE. She has no impulse control... .  not because shes an "addict", because she has a metal illness.

Im completely alone on this one aren't I?

stoic
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« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2013, 09:29:07 PM »

drinking to self medicate is a common problem of people with mental illness. She needs to stay sober if she is going to work on her mental health problems. These things are tough. AA is a resource not a miracle worker.
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« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2013, 09:44:08 PM »

Part of my understanding of BPD is that substance abuse problems are frequent, and it is even one of the diagnostic criteria in the DSM-IV (Under self-harming behaviors). So, she could be an alcoholic, an addict, and have BPD. One does not exclude the others.

From my understanding of AA, they deal with alcoholism as a singleness of purpose issue. It is not a free mental health emporium. There are resources online where you can get official information on AA, as it seems your understanding of it is rather misinformed.
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« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2013, 12:47:30 AM »

I hear you, Stoic83, and I totally get it. My dad is a recovering alcoholic. AA helped him get dry, but it seemed to almost hinder him from any other sort of treatment, and i really think he needed it. It's not that "AA" did it, exactly, either. It's that it's a system for one main sort of thing, and it's easily used by people for that thing, but also as an excuse not to delve into their *other* deeper level things, which really require professional (psychologist) guidance.

Dad needed that professional guidance to deal with deep-seated childhood issues -- bipolar father who killed himself when Dad was 7 -- and with a 26-year marriage to my dxBPD mother. The addiction happened because he couldn't cope with either of those things. He had tremendous anxiety due to both of these things. In fact, I'm sure he wound up with Mom because he was emotionally so vulnerable still, and unhealed, when they met as young adults.

What happened is, through AA, he got dry. But he never got sober because he could fool himself into thinking that dry *was* sober. And because he was working the AA system, going to meetings for a good number of years, and never relapsing he could tell himself he was getting all the care he needed. Yes, it's him making these bad decisions, but AA is a great crutch.

I've been NC with him for several years, btw, because I'd finally just had it with his dry but otherwise unchanged, selfish, destructive, narcissistic, unhealed trauma-survivor, addict behaviors.

Peace and continued healing to us,

DogDancer
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« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2013, 09:08:36 AM »

i understand what you are going through been involved in AA for 9 years and ii found  them and the teaching helpful with a women i was dateing for a year who i believe had a personality disorder. One of the thing that i got from them is take responsibility for your your own action you can only fix yourself... .  i know you can get sponsors that are not train in disorders they are only people that are recovering alcoholic trying to help people that come to them for help... .  with that said i have a good understanding of personality disorders and i know they have a way to twist the truth to manipulate the truth to benefit  them... .  i am recovering alcoholic and found aa only a part of it... .  i had to get private consoling to understand what got me there and to understand why i was dateing someone with a disorder... .  it gets back to take responsibility  for my actions and look deeper into myself... .  my PD chased after me for a year and half i stayed N/C and moved on with my life... .  regardless of how she tried to manipulate me i would not respond... it will get better once they realize you are not on there crazy train... .  wish you the best
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« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2013, 09:10:51 AM »

Hi stoic83

I had an addict in my life for many, many years. This person is NOT BPD. He had supposedly been clean when I met him and I wasn't faced with the reality of his addiction until he relapsed. This was after I'd known him for 10 years. THEN one day... .  the severity of his addiction and all of the emotional crap that goes with it was thrown in my face.

Anyway, I often got frustrated with AA and NA because of the "canned" responses I'd hear from him.  I don't think AA or NA were helpful to him because HE was not really embracing the tenants of the program. He did just enough to get out of rehab with his chip du jour, but he never really believed or internalized any of what he supposedly learned there. He was merely parroting back what he'd heard because he knew it would get him what he wanted.  He knew if he said all the right things, he would be back in everyone's good graces because we would think he "got it."  Um... .  he didn't.  This whole situation still makes me tight around the eye lids, so enough of that!

 

I also went to Alanon and found that very helpful.  The first time I went, I was in such a bad place because of dealing with all of the addict BS that it did nothing for me.  I came home worse off, really.  However... .  as time went on and I had changed, I decided to go back.  It was a very good experience for me.

The thing is... .  AA (and Alanon too) says NOTHING about being able to diagnose or treat mental illness.  It is a program that works for many and it they make it very clear in their literature exactly what they do.  It is not AA's responsibility to diagnose or treat your exgf.  I doubt that they are intentionally "pushing down" any of your exgf's issues.  They are just doing what they do -- what they SAY they will do.

The people who are involved in these organizations as sponsors are lay people.  They are not psychiatric professionals and never said they were.  Many of these people look at life with one goal, and only one goal, in mind.  SOBRIETY.  That's how it works.  And that's exactly how they say it works.

It's so frustrating when WE see so clearly that someone needs help.  However, you know how good your exgf is at playing the game.  She's doing that at AA too.  So, while I get your frustration, try not to be so hard on AA.  Their materials don't include the word "savior" anywhere.  It is ALL up to the addict/alcoholic.  And that's as it should be.

Your exgf may never get help.  That is just a fact.  Until the pain of her life becomes greater than her fear of getting help, her life will remain as it is (or get worse.)  And that will be true whether she's involved with AA, church, family, friends, etc.

Bottom line here is that you have chosen to leave this toxic situation and that is good for you.  As time goes on, you will focus more on YOU and quit trying to figure out where it all went to hell with HER.   It takes time.  Hang in there!

turtle

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« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2013, 09:51:30 AM »

It's easy to get frustrated with Mentally Ill people's treatment of AA

That is why AA has the boundaries it does.

Principles not personalities.




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« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2013, 09:52:30 AM »

It's easy to get frustrated with Mentally Ill people's treatment of AA

That is why AA has the boundaries it does.

Principles not personalities.

This is great!

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« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2013, 09:58:17 AM »

My ex got into both AA and SALA (sex and love addiction) at the end of our relationship, and from what I could see at that point, she went very much downhill. I'm sure it was not the normal experience. My ex hadn't been diagnosed with any kind of mental illness, as far as I know (she didn't tell her T what happened in our relationship, I know that), and once she started AA, she'd devour the books, and simply parrot their teachings in a way that didn't apply to her or to me at all. The books gave her a whole new language and set of teachings that she could apply to herself and life and ME that didn't make any sense to me at all. At that point, she painted me black in a way that she never had before, and accused me of the worst things possible. For some reason, what she was learning in her books and meetings gave her the understanding that she was a VICTIM, even more than she had ever thought of herself (she continually played the victim) and that everyone else was the abuser, especially me. I'd listen to her rendition of reality and just shake my head, because it made no sense whatsoever.

I'm sure that this was an unusual experience, because I know that for many AA and other addiction groups can work wonders. But for my ex, who had way bigger and deeper problems, it seemed to make things much much worse.
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« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2013, 11:12:22 AM »

I’ve been in AA/NA for close to 19 years, but I still got addicted to a pwBPD.  I didn’t know about BPD and thought that since she really didn’t drink that she had the potential for self-awareness.  I was wrong.  

Stoic:  I understand your frustration.  But perhaps it’s not directed at the correct people. Everyone one of us on this side of the board is frustrated that our exes did not seek, what we believe to be, the proper mental health therapy.  But I don’t know what’s best for others.  I barely know what’s best for me.

And it’s easy to resent any other third party.  But it’s triangulation (read definition).   The villains could be family, enabling boyfriend/girlfriend, abusive boyfriend, “best” friend, work…….in this case it seems AA and its members seem to be labeled as the persecutors.  Are you trying to rescue your ex from the evil people in recovery?  

But no matter the scenario, we’re still the rescuers and our exes are still the victims.  The Disorder always wins and the only way not to lose is not to engage, especially in triangulation (read definition)!

The 12 -steps of recovery groups include self-inventory including examining one’s past, self-awareness including shortcomings, making amends, daily inventory, and letting go of control.  These are generally not behaviors of most people, but especially those with BPD.   And, it’s not possible to force someone to work the steps.  But that’s why there’s meetings morning, noon and night, to help work the steps.  No one is forced to do anything.  

We can only hope that someone will choose to work the steps. And even if someone doesn’t work the steps, if they stay dry, they are generally they are better than if they are drunk.  There is NO hope for improvement for an addict who’s still using.  None!

But for those on this side of the board, we need to have compassion for our exes. I know it’s hard to me to look deep down at my own issues.  I can easily see how my FOO members, or my ex, other people have not looked deep inside themselves.   But it’s much harder for me to really look at why I permitted myself to become addicted to someone with BPD.   Most people would agree that a person with a sound sense of self-awareness wouldn’t permit such an intrusion into their lives.  

Stoic: perhaps the question that should be asked is, “Why did I become and am still so deeply addicted to and enmeshed with a using addict with a severe mental illness and the maturity level of a terrified three-year old?”

Freedom for me began when I started to answer the above question.  

And as a side note, CBT/DBT for pwBPD, as my T described is similar to building a fence to keep the animals from running amok.  It’s more just coping skills for the emotions so that the patient doesn’t cut/kill themselves or their partners with a steak knife.   Almost never does a T take the BPD to the point of self-awareness because it’s more likely to cause a psychotic break and external acting out including suicide.   So if a person is “high” functioning, limiting the therapy to coping skills is the best response to ensure that a T “does no harm” to the patient.  

So when we want our exes to go to the hard therapy and become self-aware, and if we force them to do it, they might end up worse or even dead.  I understood this at the end, and did not force my ex into anything.  I let her make her own decisions.  Because someone explained to me that my ex might do what I wanted, but the pain could end up killing her, which is a very real possibility.  Someone else’s partner wBPD on this board killed themselves over the holiday due to the pain.

Moreover, how many people wBPD have you even heard of that have found real self-awareness.  Those that can take responsibility, or actually feel empathy or compassion, or can sacrifice for someone else, or can make a real apology, or can fundamentally change or grow.  Really, everyone, how many pwBPD have ever reached the level of self-awareness.  .

Fundamentally, my ex is a child and just doesn't have the capacity for the change that I want her to make for ME.  I have better odds winning the PowerBall jackpot.  Wanting/hoping for that type of change from my ex. is just a symptom of my own self-rationization and denial of my FOO issues

But I will say that recovery groups such as AA/NA is the only place where I’ve found people with BPD (w/NPD traits) who have actually found self-awareness, and can change and grow.  Since I’ve been sharing my recovery from my exwBPD, some women wBPD have shared that have found some recovery from BPD.  Women who were prostitutes, in prison, beaten and raped…. These are people who went to meetings every day for years and had the rare courage to work the steps with the loving support and trust of other member of the group.  They all basically told me to give up on my ex getting better.  They have described how hard and slow their journey has been on them and that the vast vast majority of pwBPD just don’t do it.  

So that brings me back to the question:

What are the fundamental flaws within me that directed me to become and still be addicted and enmeshed with a person with a severe mental illness, and with the emotional maturity of a terrified three-year old, and who will never ever change?

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« Reply #16 on: February 05, 2013, 11:46:51 AM »

I've been a member of AA for numerous years, and without the 12-step program, I would most likely be dead.

AA teaches her to be a phony, evangelical christian...

AA teaches no such thing.  AA suggests that one find a power greater than herself/himself, but it does not define that power. 

In my experience, I have learned to be more introspective and spiritual as a direct result of working the 12-steps.  The work takes the focus off of others and puts in on myself.  I believe this is key to any type of recovery.  I cannot or do not speak for AA as a whole, but I can share that it is probably the single-most beneficial organization I've been involved with in my life. 

I also feel, and this is not just my opinion, that it's important for a pwBPD who also suffers from chemical abuse, to deal with the chemical abuse first before addressing the mental illness.  It is much more difficult to deal with mental illness while the abuse of substances is taking place simultaneously.

And like another poster mentioned, AA does have a singleness of purpose, and that is to help people stop drinking alcohol. 

I have used therapy in addition to AA to deal with issues other than alcohol, and I cannot see a pwBPD getting the help they need without therapy.  But I would see it as a great start if my ex started attending AA meetings.  The people who denigrate AA do not understand how it works.
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« Reply #17 on: February 05, 2013, 01:21:01 PM »

my stbxBPDh has serious mental health issues (uBPD (w/NPD traits)) was dx bipolar years ago- and his family has/had issues too. sister was dx with multiple personalities as a kid.

severe abuse from dad and passivity from mom. Just writing an inventory about that does not address the damage done to the individuals in that family!

he's been clean and sober with NA AA for 28 years and he claims that's all he needs. more AA. and even more AA. nothing else.

unfortunately his issues run way deeper than drinking or not drinking. he has never once made amends to me for the verbal and emotional abuse I suffered living with him. he can't admit to his own behavior!

I attended a lot of meetings in the past few years Al anon and AA, both. I never had a drink of alcohol. Just never wanted to. But I was curious, and wanted to support my H. So I went.

I don't admire the false intimacy that strangers "sharing" their most personal details in AA fosters. these people need to be sharing with therapists... .  not a bunch of strangers.

The sponsors are NOT trained and often not well versed in the literature themselves. the blind leading the blind, although I agree that it feels good to know that others share your background, and know your struggle.

My problem with AA is that it seems to encourage"stuck-ness" in the 12 step system. if after 30 plus years you still need weekly or daily meetings to stay sober and feel/act normal... .  something else must be going on.

if it helped as much as they claim-why don't they feel better, get better and STAY better?

it appeared to foster dependence on the meetings, themselves!

it seemed like an elitist system. you are either for them or against them.

many folks seemed pretty desperate, a bit flakey and self absorbed to me.(though not all)

it was all lookit me me me! I didn't feel like I could make one friend in those meetings. Al anon or AA.

I had a friend who relapsed on pain meds after a surgery, and her beloved sponsor dumped her-just when she needed MORE support-not LESS. So I question her sponsors commitment... .  that's when you dig in as a sponsor and try again-seems to me. The sponsor said if you FAILED-then I can't help you.  "?" like she took it personally that my friend had issues with pain meds.

that felt harsh and made it harder on my friend-for sure.

GL


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« Reply #18 on: February 05, 2013, 03:22:11 PM »

Hi Gina Louise,  I've followed much of your story, and your pain and struggle really come through in your posts.  I appreciate your honesty.  It has helped me on my path.

I don't intend or want to start a dialog on the merits/or lack thereof of AA, but I do hear a lot of misunderstanding, which is understandable!  I agree that more is needed than AA for someone wBPD.  AA is not for treating BPD; it is to help people stop drinking alcohol.  Although I believe the 12-steps can benefit most people in some way. 

BPD is a deeper issue, in my opinion, than alcoholism, requiring professional help.  But if someone wBPD suffers from alcoholism, I consider it a huge step if they even attempt or deal with their drinking problem.  That says a lot more than what most agree to get help with.

I am not surprised that your ex did not make amends to you.  It seems pwBPD have an extremely hard time admitting fault because their shame is so intense that they feel they are inherently bad people.  Shame says, I am bad, rather than I did some bad things.  This could be dealt with in professional therapy.

You said that strangers sit around and share deep feelings.  I disagree for the most part, because in most AA groups the individual members who stay and work the program develop very strong bonds with each other.  I feel more comfortable sharing my feelings with certain members in AA than I do my own family, because I've found I cannot always trust my feelings with my family members.  I do not trust everyone in AA, either.  That would be foolish.  My point is that the group feels more like a family to me, much like the people here on Face the Facts.  However, I've always said that people need to be cognizant about what they share in a meeting, just like they do on these boards.  Some matters are better shared one-on-one with someone who is trusted, like a sponsor, therapist, priest, or whoever.

The sharing in meetings is actually very similar to what we do on these boards.  Someone starts a topic, and we discuss it and share our feelings around it as a group.  There's nothing secret or magical about it.  It's a very simple concept.  The part that draws people together is the mutual understanding of having been through similar experiences and traumas, again, much like on these boards.

AA members are just regular people, not experts on mental health.  There are wonderful sponsors in AA with great knowledge and there are sponsors who do not know what they are doing... just like anywhere else. 

The reason people some people continue to stay involved after many years is because recovery can be a life long process, one day at a time.  You don't ever arrive; there is always growth to be made.  It is a spiritual path, a journey.  It's similar to asking why someone would go to church every Sunday for the rest of their lives or to Lion's Club for that matter.  It's a personal choice.

In conclusion, AA is not and does not claim to be the only resource or solution to someone's drinking problem.  It is merely a resource or a set of tools, yet one that has worked for millions of alcoholics who could not stop on their own.  I'm a strong proponent of people finding their own path in life, whatever that may be.  It's not my place to judge what is right or wrong for someone else.  I can only find that for myself. 

Peace be with you.
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Tausk
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« Reply #19 on: February 05, 2013, 05:01:24 PM »

Blaming AA for an individual's inability to find what we feel is proper therapy is like someone else stating,

"My friend is on this BPD board for ex partners and it's not doing him any good at all.  He still contacts his ex. He still acts and thinks like a victim.  He still won't look at his own FOO issues.  He still won't let go.  He still won't stay in therapy.  He still thinks he can rescue his ex.  He still would rather look at his ex's issues than look at his own.  He still blames her for his unhappiness.  He still cyberstalks his ex.  He still thinks that somehow his pain is linked to the current activites of his ex.  All he does is write on this board where everyone says he's ok, but what he really needs is a good kick in the pants... .  "

Despite the fact the 90% of people with any time on this board will make recommendations against all of the above, how many people still don't follow the recommendations?  And remember we're supposedly the ones without the mental illness.   :'(  

Anyone who has gone to Al Anon and actually worked the steps, understands that the Step 1 says we're powerless over others, especially those with severe mental illness.  

This board is basically modeled on the principles of 12-step recovery.  The ability to check in with others, the theraputic value of one person with the same disorder helping another, and the lack of judgement in how someone approaches their own recovery.  

The diversity of how healthy a single individual is on this board is not a reflection of merits of the board.  If so, I could point to many people on each post and say how terrible the board is for recovery.

And, if we want to be critical of how our exes didn't do something while in AA, how do we feel about the areas where we are lacking in progress for ourselves while on this board.

The simple rules, don't engage, take a self inventory, let go, and realize that our pain has nothing to do with the actions of our exes, but rather why we allowed and engaged in such a destructive interaction.   Where does judging the efficacy of AA/NA and our exes wBPD fit in with our recovery?

For me, any resentments or outside blame, attempted control of my ex, victim mentality for myself, and judgement of others simply keeps me in my disorder.   

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« Reply #20 on: February 05, 2013, 06:16:00 PM »

I am not saying that 12 step programs don't work, and that they aren't valuable programs for those that work them, and there are not trusted sponsors in many 12 step programs that perform good works.

I have met wonderful people in the Rooms... .  and some real doozies, too.

BUT I am saying that for those with issues deeper than drinking or using-something more therapeutic seems to be helpful, in addition. Not in lieu of.

I never wanted to be "in power over another". I just wanted to have a reciprocal marriage r/s with my H.

Not possible, even with more and more AA and NA. All it did was tell him that he was Super OK... .  and I was The Problem. ( being labeled as a "normie", a non -drinker)

Not claiming that's true for everyone, but it was for me.

GL

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« Reply #21 on: February 05, 2013, 11:56:35 PM »

My ex got into both AA and SALA (sex and love addiction) at the end of our relationship, and from what I could see at that point, she went very much downhill. I'm sure it was not the normal experience. My ex hadn't been diagnosed with any kind of mental illness, as far as I know (she didn't tell her T what happened in our relationship, I know that), and once she started AA, she'd devour the books, and simply parrot their teachings in a way that didn't apply to her or to me at all. The books gave her a whole new language and set of teachings that she could apply to herself and life and ME that didn't make any sense to me at all. At that point, she painted me black in a way that she never had before, and accused me of the worst things possible. For some reason, what she was learning in her books and meetings gave her the understanding that she was a VICTIM, even more than she had ever thought of herself (she continually played the victim) and that everyone else was the abuser, especially me. I'd listen to her rendition of reality and just shake my head, because it made no sense whatsoever.

I'm sure that this was an unusual experience, because I know that for many AA and other addiction groups can work wonders. But for my ex, who had way bigger and deeper problems, it seemed to make things much much worse.

Lol. This is spot on as far as I am concerned. It did enable her to paint me black in a more painful way, by distorting the logic of AA... and parroting it back , as you say. I know for a fact that her sponsor told her to ignore her psychological symptoms when they cycled... .  usually during that time of the month... .  it was clear to both her and I at the time that she was suffering from mental illness... .  we talked about it openly a few time in our relationship... .  but she never gave me a diagnosis, I think they gave her C-PTSD for insurance purposes... .  People at the rehab she stayed at were trying to get her in to counseling and on medication. Her sponsor is like big momma of AA, has supposedly "got more people sober" than anybody else in the group... .  etc. She seems like a massive N... .  and her main concern is getting another notch on her belt. She was a jerk to me, saying " you can't get her sober, hell i can't get her sober... .  blah blah blah... .  ive been with guys like you... .  blah blah blah" Like a broken record. This isn't about her getting sober, it's about her self-medicating her mental illness with whatever coping mechanisms calms her dysregulation... .  its so easy to see, that she is not like most other alcoholics.

I mean she blew a .38 in a dui and wasn't even drunk. That would kill me and most everybody. This is way beyond alcoholism or addiction... it's about her impulse control problems and lack of left brain functioning. She isn't going to gain wise-mind abilities in an organization where they tell you that thinking is stinking.

The chemical detox she was at said that and I quote " AA alone can kill people like her, I've seen it before. If you love her, please encourage her to seek dbt/cbt/ and trauma hypnotherapy... .  she isn't going to stay sober with these unresolved traumas. Also, she needs to be in sober living for the next 3-6 months."

She needs to start thinking! God is not going to save her from this.

Also she's mirroring the most awful role models... .  one of her friends injected bleach in to her face, the other one smokes on top of her baby... .  what an awful place for someone with BPD to be... around a bunch of aspd,NPD, other BPD. I'm sorry I see her going further down by associating with the people shes associating with... .  they might be "sober" but that's about it. Their life ambition... .  

I wasn't gonna be a BPD caretaker so that she could go to aa meetings and hang out with people who aren't driven to do anything other than leech of the government and hang around talking about how much worse of a childhood you have and how you shouldn't explore it or hang out to it, because there is always someone worse off... .  

It's a joke. She's never gonna have a chance at getting better if her therapy consists of her standing up and talking in front of a bunch of other people... .  i'm sorry... it might keep her sober, but it's not going to keep her from treating herself and anyone who gets close to her like... .  well you know.

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« Reply #22 on: February 06, 2013, 12:01:01 AM »

I hear you, Stoic83, and I totally get it. My dad is a recovering alcoholic. AA helped him get dry, but it seemed to almost hinder him from any other sort of treatment, and i really think he needed it. It's not that "AA" did it, exactly, either. It's that it's a system for one main sort of thing, and it's easily used by people for that thing, but also as an excuse not to delve into their *other* deeper level things, which really require professional (psychologist) guidance.

Dad needed that professional guidance to deal with deep-seated childhood issues -- bipolar father who killed himself when Dad was 7 -- and with a 26-year marriage to my dxBPD mother. The addiction happened because he couldn't cope with either of those things. He had tremendous anxiety due to both of these things. In fact, I'm sure he wound up with Mom because he was emotionally so vulnerable still, and unhealed, when they met as young adults.

What happened is, through AA, he got dry. But he never got sober because he could fool himself into thinking that dry *was* sober. And because he was working the AA system, going to meetings for a good number of years, and never relapsing he could tell himself he was getting all the care he needed. Yes, it's him making these bad decisions, but AA is a great crutch.

I've been NC with him for several years, btw, because I'd finally just had it with his dry but otherwise unchanged, selfish, destructive, narcissistic, unhealed trauma-survivor, addict behaviors.

Peace and continued healing to us,

DogDancer

Exactly how I feel 100%. Her dad went to the same meetings as her before he passed away 2 months ago. He was a serial cheater, married 4 times, killed his best friend in a drunk driving accident, most likely molested his children, and went to prison. But I was never good enough for his daughter... .  Laugh out loud (click to insert in post).

Her sister was bipolar and on medication a long time ago... .  she's very funny, but not a very good influence when she gets manic and violent or profane. i am sure that's fun for my exwBPD to deal with.

In any case, I am going to do as my exwBPD says and "wash my hands of her"... .  I only live once, and I want a requited love who doesn't destroy her body with alcohol and treat me like a toy.

Stoic
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« Reply #23 on: February 06, 2013, 12:12:02 AM »

I am not saying that 12 step programs don't work, and that they aren't valuable programs for those that work them, and there are not trusted sponsors in many 12 step programs that perform good works.

I have met wonderful people in the Rooms... .  and some real doozies, too.

BUT I am saying that for those with issues deeper than drinking or using-something more therapeutic seems to be helpful, in addition. Not in lieu of.

I never wanted to be *in power over another*. I just wanted to have a reciprocal marriage r/s with my H.

Not possible, even with more and more AA and NA. All it did was tell him that he was Super OK... .  and I was The Problem. ( being labeled as a *normie*, a non -drinker)

Not claiming that's true for everyone, but it was for me.

GL

Yes this happens to me... .  it's like reverse-racism but for alcoholics. They are exclusive... and normie's just don't get it... .  the thing is... .  I do get it, I've been addicted to things before... .  food, tv show, these boards... .  

I agree too... .  that it became a massive power struggle... .  if I helped too much I was enabling, and if I wasn't helpful enough I didn't understand because I wasn't in the program... .  her sponsor talked a lot about her "working a good program... .  blah blah"

Her sister isn't on medication... .  aren't people with bipolar supposed to be on medication?

My exwBPD even told me... .  ya, my sister's sober... .  she goes to church all the time... .  but she is NOT okay. I honestly think she wanted to get help for her mental illness... .  peer pressure and sponsorship and the programs ideals have steered her away from getting help.

At the end of the day it's "her responsiblity" but since she is an "adult-child" in several different ways. I don't anticipate anybody with her issues seeking help without the proper guidance.

In any case... .  there is limited structure and help for people with mental illness... .  I have experienced my exwBPD's symptoms through fleas/transference whatever... .  and I can tell you that it is the most awful feeling I have ever felt... .  I can understand why there is a high suicide rate, and they are so impulsive... .  living with a mind like that is pure torture and I'm mad at this particular faction of AA... .  

i guess others are right though... .  AA is a perfect opportunity for her to wear her mask and tell everyone what she thinks they want to hear. I don't want to hear any more... .  

Stoic
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« Reply #24 on: February 06, 2013, 12:28:35 AM »

Hi stoic83

I had an addict in my life for many, many years. This person is NOT BPD. He had supposedly been clean when I met him and I wasn't faced with the reality of his addiction until he relapsed. This was after I'd known him for 10 years. THEN one day... .  the severity of his addiction and all of the emotional crap that goes with it was thrown in my face.

Anyway, I often got frustrated with AA and NA because of the "canned" responses I'd hear from him.  I don't think AA or NA were helpful to him because HE was not really embracing the tenants of the program. He did just enough to get out of rehab with his chip du jour, but he never really believed or internalized any of what he supposedly learned there. He was merely parroting back what he'd heard because he knew it would get him what he wanted.  He knew if he said all the right things, he would be back in everyone's good graces because we would think he "got it."  Um... .  he didn't.  This whole situation still makes me tight around the eye lids, so enough of that!

 

I also went to Alanon and found that very helpful.  The first time I went, I was in such a bad place because of dealing with all of the addict BS that it did nothing for me.  I came home worse off, really.  However... .  as time went on and I had changed, I decided to go back.  It was a very good experience for me.

The thing is... .  AA (and Alanon too) says NOTHING about being able to diagnose or treat mental illness.  It is a program that works for many and it they make it very clear in their literature exactly what they do.  It is not AA's responsibility to diagnose or treat your exgf.  I doubt that they are intentionally "pushing down" any of your exgf's issues.  They are just doing what they do -- what they SAY they will do.

The people who are involved in these organizations as sponsors are lay people.  They are not psychiatric professionals and never said they were.  Many of these people look at life with one goal, and only one goal, in mind.  SOBRIETY.  That's how it works.  And that's exactly how they say it works.

It's so frustrating when WE see so clearly that someone needs help.  However, you know how good your exgf is at playing the game.  She's doing that at AA too.  So, while I get your frustration, try not to be so hard on AA.  Their materials don't include the word "savior" anywhere.  It is ALL up to the addict/alcoholic.  And that's as it should be.

Your exgf may never get help.  That is just a fact.  Until the pain of her life becomes greater than her fear of getting help, her life will remain as it is (or get worse.)  And that will be true whether she's involved with AA, church, family, friends, etc.

Bottom line here is that you have chosen to leave this toxic situation and that is good for you.  As time goes on, you will focus more on YOU and quit trying to figure out where it all went to hell with HER.   It takes time.  Hang in there!

turtle

Aww turtle... .  i love the way you look at things.

But sadly it is the case that her sponsor told her to "ignore her symptoms"... .  her sponsor is "famous at her aa group for getting a gagillion people sober... .  shes a BIG DEAL in AA". i.e. total narcissist. People who are involved with AA heavily after 30 years... .  and brag about how many people they've gotten sober... .  I could tell by talking to her. She likes the control... .  I heard how she talks to my exwBPD... .  very manipulative and condescending. She acted like she was "the answer" to a better life for my exwBPD. Very controlling, had a god complex. I am very sure that she is aware that my exwBPD and her sister are both mentally ill and untreated... .  she may be as well, who knows.

Anyways, I gave her a peace of my mind.

[Keep in mind that I was in full on SHOCK and FLEAS and PARANOID when this happened from the entire twisted history of this rs... .  you guys are going to think less of me, but oh well I will share anyways for informational purposes]

Here is the email I sent to her sponsor... .  days after she relapsed, threatened suicide, talked about her dad r**** her sister again, and threated to cut off my genitals, kill me several times... .  all after i supported her through her dad's funeral, let her move in with me... .  and I've probably spent more time with her, than any other person in my entire life... .  so very protective, and emotionally charged, and I am only 98% sure of what I spoke of as truth... and this is why I feel bad... .  nobody ever knows the "truth" about these things. When you know, you know)


Hi xxxx. You should be glad to know that (exwBPD) and i have decided that the relationship was toxic and ended it. I am going to al anon to get help for myself. Whatever reason I remained involved with (exwBPD) for so long is not something i am completely conscious of, so i am sending this email... .  i dont know what to tell you. However i can tell you that my friend who got (exwBPD) in to detox recently says that aa alone "can kill people like her".

This email needs to remain confidential and anonymous for my own personal safety and well-being.

There are obviously things here that i am not "man enough" to deal with.

Standing there at the funeral knowing that this man, her father, raped the woman i love when she was a child, and that he was the only man she will truly ever love.

Knowing that it was enabled for all three family members to be in group therapy meetings or whatever. How can anyone heal with that going on? When secrets are so sick and twisted and your dad is there watching? Why didnt you do anything about this?

She told me you Encouraged her to deny her mental illness symptoms that has resulted from maltreatment by her sick and twisted parents and to form forgiving relationships with people who treated her worse than an animal?

I knew that once her dad died she would be able to deal with these issues. Instead she sat at my house and went on facebook for 12 hours a day. When she relapsed she sat in my bed in a catatonic state screaming about how shes been trying to figure out whether her dad raped her sister for the last 4 years.

Then after detox any contrived love xxx had for me has disappeared. The best friend she has ever known is "painted black" and discarded like trash. Lies and embellishments have been told to all of you. Making me look like some lost puppy dog, when it was always the other way around where i was stalked, harrassed, and had sexual indiscretions rubbed in my face.

Now i know she was never cheating on me. She was cheating on dad. And i hadnt been cheated on, i was the mistress while her dad was the only man. Going through the slideshow... .  having her mom talk about how hot "her dad" was to the two girls. So sick. Please help her.

Maybe this is why i am so apalled, disgusted, and in great pain over the people that surrounded her during this healing effort. During her relapse, I come home, and she is in the shower with her "sober sister" who has the emotional immaturity of a 7 year old. She doesnt remember what happened to her... .  but this has all made me spirtually sick. To the point where that toxicity of all of the ungodly abuse, denial, and shame has filled my life with sadness and helplessness.

Please take care in encouraging her to get the help that she really needs.

I have no idea what xxx has said about me to everybody during her "distortion campaign". But i have been kind gentle and patient with her, and never gave up. It wasnt until she started to crave more abuse and pain that things have gone awry between us. I am not an abusive or aggressive man, so clearly i did not meet this need. I was belittled for it.

Please help my special friend whom i most likely will never speak to again through this painful time and towards a happier place. Living in denial seems like a good option, but she will never live the life that she was intended to and is capable of.

Only the truth will set her free. Unfortunately, the truth is so traumatic that she can only handle it when she poisons herself.

This is the last boundary i will cross. Do with it what you will or ignore it. This is not about me and any need i have for validation or to defend myself. Please help my friend. She doesn't even know who i am anymore. In her eyes i am her enemy and the source of her anger, but i am not her father and I am no longer going to be punished for his sins.

Good luck and godspeed.

Best Regards,

Stoic
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« Reply #25 on: February 06, 2013, 12:54:54 AM »

Blaming AA for an individual's inability to find what we feel is proper therapy is like someone else stating,

"My friend is on this BPD board for ex partners and it's not doing him any good at all.  He still contacts his ex. He still acts and thinks like a victim.  He still won't look at his own FOO issues.  He still won't let go.  He still won't stay in therapy.  He still thinks he can rescue his ex.  He still would rather look at his ex's issues than look at his own.  He still blames her for his unhappiness.  He still cyberstalks his ex.  He still thinks that somehow his pain is linked to the current activites of his ex.  All he does is write on this board where everyone says he's ok, but what he really needs is a good kick in the pants... .  "

Despite the fact the 90% of people with any time on this board will make recommendations against all of the above, how many people still don't follow the recommendations?  And remember we're supposedly the ones without the mental illness.   :'(  

Anyone who has gone to Al Anon and actually worked the steps, understands that the Step 1 says we're powerless over others, especially those with severe mental illness.  

This board is basically modeled on the principles of 12-step recovery.  The ability to check in with others, the theraputic value of one person with the same disorder helping another, and the lack of judgement in how someone approaches their own recovery.  

The diversity of how healthy a single individual is on this board is not a reflection of merits of the board.  If so, I could point to many people on each post and say how terrible the board is for recovery.

And, if we want to be critical of how our exes didn't do something while in AA, how do we feel about the areas where we are lacking in progress for ourselves while on this board.

The simple rules, don't engage, take a self inventory, let go, and realize that our pain has nothing to do with the actions of our exes, but rather why we allowed and engaged in such a destructive interaction.   Where does judging the efficacy of AA/NA and our exes wBPD fit in with our recovery?

For me, any resentments or outside blame, attempted control of my ex, victim mentality for myself, and judgement of others simply keeps me in my disorder.   

Hey, I really enjoy your posts and they give me great insight. I never said my anger was justified... .  I just said I was angry. I've had a lot of friends go through AA and a lot of them have done really great... .  and I do agree that the 12 steps are extremely valuable and a great way to get in touch with your self and start over.

I don't think we are powerless over others... .  I think we all have great influence over one another. Is that dysfunctional? I feel that I am heavily influenced by other people... .  and I think we all are heavily influenced by other people.

My exwBPD was sober for 15 months and on step 4. When she did her 5th step she was drunk on mouthwash.

I was waiting for an apology I would never get. You should read the letter I wrote to her sponsor during her relapse. You would think I was the one who was drunk... .  no just shock and terror... trauma symptoms... .  

It is sad that I am biased towards AA right now... .  

I understand that you have to treat the addiction first. But a chemical detox takes 7-10 days. The root cause of her alcoholism was BPD, not alcoholism... .  I do not think her alcoholism was "separate" I think it was a symptom of her disorder. She felt like drinking and she has limited impulse control (as in her brain does not function regularly).

I disagree... .  but I do agree that I have heard people get better after decades, something like AA... .  etc.

I agree that I should focus on myself and figure out why I remained involved in such a toxic relationship. I am not really sure... .  it just seemed like a perfect storm... .  at first. Over time, just learned helplesness... .  I was so traumatized by her suicidal and self-harm behavior... that I didnt want to leave her side.

As a side-note, her mental illness has gotten worse... .  she has even told me so during moments of clarity.

When I met her she was 22, and now she is 26. I am just really messed up from this. I am sorry If I offended you.

I have a lot of friends in AA... and just have some resentment.

I live in the recovery Mecca... .  Orange county, Ca so I know a lot about aa and I do think the 12 steps program would be good for anybody, not just an addict... .  

We are all addicts of varying degrees, are we not?

Stoic
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« Reply #26 on: February 06, 2013, 01:55:59 AM »

Reading over that letter I wrote is amazing.

I am starting to really come out of the FOG now, but I could have got myself in some serious trouble being so revealing and over dramatic... .  it just comes off as crazy and condescending... .  anybody in AA would rip me apart for that. I think that's why I did that... .  I feel like it was my turn to go crazy... .  you have to understand how much pain and confusion I was in when I wrote it... .  I just wanted, needed out, and couldn't deal with the pressure of being with her after her dad died, knowing that this breakup was a double abandonment trauma for her to deal with... .  i am honestly hoping she doesn't kill her self within the next year. Serious.

With all the games she was playing with her little AA circle... .  or whatever... .  I was rightfully paranoid about it... but not AA's fault... but her fault. There is no way that this rs was going to survive, AA or not. What I am upset about, is that there is not a good system in place for somebody like her to get help. I have been in rough spots before, and I had a hard time asking for help with mainstream issues... .  who has 110 dollars an hour to spend on BPD specialists?

That is how sick i was... .  how much of her shame I tried to shoulder in this relationship. How much pressure it put on me... .  to have some one, literally put their life in my hand like "hot potato". I certainly never wanted that. I literally lost my mind living with her for two months... .  serious toxic stuff, folks. Please take it easy on me... .  this person I loved for four years threatened to cut off my genitals in almost like a "turrets syndrome, it just slipped out sort of thing"... this level of violence had not been expressed in the 4 years i have known her... .  I cant say it surprised me.

The T was just glad I got out of the rs and told her family(in person... .  so they could see first-hand how "messed-up" I felt and the situation was and sponsor that the rs was toxic... .  and not-so-subtly implying that I was toxic too. i just could not hold it together... .  after reading SWOE, boards before... .  etc. just couldn't do it anymore... .  and did not bow out with integrity and did not boy out respectfully or like a friend. Because she was no longer a friend anymore... .  just a special friend... .  e.g. a person who was once a friend, but now I just pity her.

This was all over christmas... .  I spent christmas alone while she was in chemical detox... .  with the puppy she bought two weeks earlier 2 months after her dad's death... .  where she was really starting to talk about some sexual content involving her dad and sister... .  and Im almost positive she was projecting. this kind of stuff doesn't come up out of thin air... Im sorry folks... .  and this wasn't the first time.

I am focusing now on moving forward. I have spent a lot of time figuring out why I have been involved in a relationship with my exwBPD... .  it is because I have an abusive childhood and I felt empathetic towards her and she reminded me of the women in my FOO... whom I have no rs with either. Then it was learned helplessness... .  I was afraid she was gong to hurt herself if I didn't do what she wanted... .  that sounds pretty pathetic, but when you care about a person... .  it can be a pretty powerful weapon to hold over someone's head.

I'm not trying to say that she went around threating suicide all of the time... .  sometimes it was subtle, sometimes it was a friend calling me and asking me to call her after i broke up with her, sometimes it was her saying she was worried about drinking.

Just shamelessly manipulating me with the fact that I care about her... .  like a child does to a mother at 3-7 years old or whatever.

I am  working with my T on mindfulness, and also any social paranoia i have developed from being in a rs with such a sad, sad case of a person wBPD.

It's easy for me to sit her and say she is mentally ill and blah blah blah, but it is a good thing that I tried to look beyond her illness, because thats what it is... .  its just i shouldve given up the first time, or second time... .  not 5 or 6 times over 4 years or whatever.

She would show up at my house at the strangest times... .  and I should've been creeped out, but honestly i was just happy to see her... .  it's not like I wasn't worried about her and her well-being. I was a little creeped out, but I felt like I knew this person... and had empathy for her abnormal behaviors... .  my mom has a pd as well most likely.

Well, now I do not have to worry about that any more... .  

I guess there should be a MIA or something "mentally ill anonymous"... .  

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Tausk
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Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
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« Reply #27 on: February 06, 2013, 10:04:31 AM »

Reading over that letter I wrote is amazing.

I am starting to really come out of the FOG now, but I could have got myself in some serious trouble being so revealing and over dramatic... .  it just comes off as crazy and condescending... .  anybody in AA would rip me apart for that. I think that's why I did that... .  I feel like it was my turn to go crazy... .  you have to understand how much pain and confusion I was in when I wrote it... .  I just wanted, needed out, and couldn't deal with the pressure of being with her after her dad died, knowing that this breakup was a double abandonment trauma for her to deal with... .  i am honestly hoping she doesn't kill her self within the next year. Serious.

With all the games she was playing with her little AA circle... .  or whatever... .  I was rightfully paranoid about it... but not AA's fault... but her fault. There is no way that this rs was going to survive, AA or not. What I am upset about, is that there is not a good system in place for somebody like her to get help. I have been in rough spots before, and I had a hard time asking for help with mainstream issues... .  who has 110 dollars an hour to spend on BPD specialists?

That is how sick i was... .  how much of her shame I tried to shoulder in this relationship. How much pressure it put on me... .  to have some one, literally put their life in my hand like "hot potato". I certainly never wanted that. I literally lost my mind living with her for two months... .  serious toxic stuff, folks. Please take it easy on me... .  this person I loved for four years threatened to cut off my genitals in almost like a "turrets syndrome, it just slipped out sort of thing"... this level of violence had not been expressed in the 4 years i have known her... .  I cant say it surprised me.

The T was just glad I got out of the rs and told her family(in person... .  so they could see first-hand how "messed-up" I felt and the situation was and sponsor that the rs was toxic... .  and not-so-subtly implying that I was toxic too. i just could not hold it together... .  after reading SWOE, boards before... .  etc. just couldn't do it anymore... .  and did not bow out with integrity and did not boy out respectfully or like a friend. Because she was no longer a friend anymore... .  just a special friend... .  e.g. a person who was once a friend, but now I just pity her.

This was all over christmas... .  I spent christmas alone while she was in chemical detox... .  with the puppy she bought two weeks earlier 2 months after her dad's death... .  where she was really starting to talk about some sexual content involving her dad and sister... .  and Im almost positive she was projecting. this kind of stuff doesn't come up out of thin air... Im sorry folks... .  and this wasn't the first time.

I am focusing now on moving forward. I have spent a lot of time figuring out why I have been involved in a relationship with my exwBPD... .  it is because I have an abusive childhood and I felt empathetic towards her and she reminded me of the women in my FOO... whom I have no rs with either. Then it was learned helplessness... .  I was afraid she was gong to hurt herself if I didn't do what she wanted... .  that sounds pretty pathetic, but when you care about a person... .  it can be a pretty powerful weapon to hold over someone's head.

I'm not trying to say that she went around threating suicide all of the time... .  sometimes it was subtle, sometimes it was a friend calling me and asking me to call her after i broke up with her, sometimes it was her saying she was worried about drinking.

Just shamelessly manipulating me with the fact that I care about her... .  like a child does to a mother at 3-7 years old or whatever.

I am  working with my T on mindfulness, and also any social paranoia i have developed from being in a rs with such a sad, sad case of a person wBPD.

It's easy for me to sit her and say she is mentally ill and blah blah blah, but it is a good thing that I tried to look beyond her illness, because thats what it is... .  its just i shouldve given up the first time, or second time... .  not 5 or 6 times over 4 years or whatever.

She would show up at my house at the strangest times... .  and I should've been creeped out, but honestly i was just happy to see her... .  it's not like I wasn't worried about her and her well-being. I was a little creeped out, but I felt like I knew this person... and had empathy for her abnormal behaviors... .  my mom has a pd as well most likely.

Well, now I do not have to worry about that any more... .  

I guess there should be a MIA or something "mentally ill anonymous"... .  

Stoic:  Thank you so much for this post.  Your sincerity and depth of emotions honestly has brought tears to my eyes and triggered compassion in me for all of us and our exes.

It's so very sad.  And the pain is so deep for us on this side of the board.   It's impossible to know what is best for our exes.  I've been there through all the mental health options with my ex. DBT, couples counseling,  non-violent communication... .  But it never worked for us because it was applying logical ideas to a person with a deeply disordered thought process.

And then I learned that recovery for people with BPD doesn't mean that they get self-awareness.  It means they just don't act out in the worse ways... .  such as cutting, suicide, violence, drug and alchohol addiction... .   It's just coping skills at best to survive.  

But there is virtually no chance that our exes can actually grow to be an adult with emotions and actions such as love, remorse, compassion, empathy, sacrifice, trust, faith... .  

And the more enmeshed we became, the more she needed.  Which is not possible.  So I had to let go.  I had to admit and accept that I was powerless over her.  i could not rescue her if she did not want to be rescued.

I agree, that you and me might be open to being influenced by others, but again this is applying our thought process to the disordered BPD mind of our exes.  They can only react in survival mode.  A survival mode that has no logic and as a general rule is destined for destruction and deep pain.  But again that's why we are powerless over them.  

But letting go puts me in a cold void that so is so painful that I don't know at times if I can survive it.   The void used to be filled with my codependency on my ex.   But over time, i've learned to fill the void with love for myself and that helps with the cold.  I'm hoping you can also fill the void of love of yourself.

I also try to replace resentment, anger and fear with acceptance, love and faith for the past present and future.

Stoic, your courage gives me inspiration to continue to move forward.  thanks so much for posting and sharing.

SP

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stoic83
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« Reply #28 on: February 06, 2013, 12:30:49 PM »

Stoic:  Thank you so much for this post.  Your sincerity and depth of emotions honestly has brought tears to my eyes and triggered compassion in me for all of us and our exes.

It's so very sad.  And the pain is so deep for us on this side of the board.   It's impossible to know what is best for our exes.  I've been there through all the mental health options with my ex. DBT, couples counseling,  non-violent communication... .  But it never worked for us because it was applying logical ideas to a person with a deeply disordered thought process.

And then I learned that recovery for people with BPD doesn't mean that they get self-awareness.  It means they just don't act out in the worse ways... .  such as cutting, suicide, violence, drug and alchohol addiction... .   It's just coping skills at best to survive.  

But there is virtually no chance that our exes can actually grow to be an adult with emotions and actions such as love, remorse, compassion, empathy, sacrifice, trust, faith... .  

And the more enmeshed we became, the more she needed.  Which is not possible.  So I had to let go.  I had to admit and accept that I was powerless over her.  i could not rescue her if she did not want to be rescued.

I agree, that you and me might be open to being influenced by others, but again this is applying our thought process to the disordered BPD mind of our exes.  They can only react in survival mode.  A survival mode that has no logic and as a general rule is destined for destruction and deep pain.  But again that's why we are powerless over them.  

But letting go puts me in a cold void that so is so painful that I don't know at times if I can survive it.   The void used to be filled with my codependency on my ex.   But over time, i've learned to fill the void with love for myself and that helps with the cold.  I'm hoping you can also fill the void of love of yourself.

I also try to replace resentment, anger and fear with acceptance, love and faith for the past present and future.

Stoic, your courage gives me inspiration to continue to move forward.  thanks so much for posting and sharing.

SP

I think you are right buddy... .  the truth is hard to accept.

I appreciate the "kick in the pants". The only friend of mine who really gave me one is my other friend in AA... .  whom I've known for exactly 10 years. 5 of them drunk and belligerent... .  doing whatever drugs he could get his hands on. And 5 of them of one of the most loving and best friends I could ask for, hes in graduate school, his dad is an advisor for my company... .  etc. He through me in to a glass door over this... .  Laugh out loud (click to insert in post). He couldn't believe what was happening to me, his f"normie" friend, who was once a "crutch" to lean on... .  

He knew exactly how she thought... .  when I mentioned she might have BPD... .  he was clearly emotionally affected and said he doesn't believe in labels. I told him of how i would have flashblacks when i was with her, and blurted out her past behavior that i repressed... .  and he literally screamed at me not to mention any of that to her while she's in recovery. So it's clear that he was able to empathize with her over many of her behaviors and attitudes... .  and he was adamant that I get out of the rs several times, he could see right through any of her bs manipulation.

This guys is a dear friend... .  he still is a natural pick up artist and feigns empathy... .  but he does it with integrity, now Laugh out loud (click to insert in post). Integrity is way more important than personality. One of the last things I said to my exwBPD is "I know that you've been dealt a rough hand, but at least play it with integrity!"

My buddy offers to go to al-anon meetings with me, says he's codependent too... .  and he sponsors a few guys. This guy has a lot of integrity these days... .  He's one of my only friends who didn't "judge me"  Laugh out loud (click to insert in post) for this.

A lot of my friends have had some pretty serious addictions... .  Some very interesting, colorful, and creative people have had addictions at one time or another... .  I have had an addiction to this relationship.

I feel a lot better saying i had an addiction to this relationship, rather than to her. In the end my addiction to the relationship became severe enough, that the toxicity of it was overriding any amount of human empathy and compassion i could conjure up... .  so I started to reach.

I just felt it was better that her family and sponsor heard what i had experienced and had to say. They all know that i have been a consistent positive influence in her life for a long time and have communicated that to me indirectly... .  but in the end they want what is best for her. I simply am not good for her anymore... .  just as it is glaringly obvious to any third party that she is not good for me.

Learned helplessness. If I would've kept her at an arms length, I could've remained in contact with her. But I am a trigger for her abandonment rage and we are both safer if we remain NC. Serious.

When she relapsed I hit up her friends, and family... .  because I wanted to show them i was concerned and perhaps i was afraid of being blamed... my fear was justified to some extent, i find out. Since I am a normie, I kept my influence to a bare minimum in regards to AA... .  other than trying to connect her with a girl friend in the area who is 4 years sober and works at a recovery center... .  in the end i think that a different AA group may have been better... .  one her dad the ex hell's angel blah blah wasn't a "king" at.

I appreciate your realism... .  it is my idealism that got me in this spot... .  i wouldn't call it hubris, just misguided hope... .  wanting to believe that she, as my friend could be that same inspirational story that has been an important part of my life. Wanted to believe that with perseverance and mental strength anything is possible... .  this is just a sad situation that I have no control over and that the only person who has control, has limited faculties... .  and as the man said to me in the alanon meeting " you only get one ticket in life." It would be offensive to any higher power imaginable to mistreat myself or justify putting myself in harmful situations... .  what a waste.

Im looking forward to moving off the victim triangle:)

You can see that right now Im transitioning from persecutor... .  and hoping on moving back to the center.

Seeing the grey again... .  feels good buddy... .  much better than any idealization/devaluation hook/fix

Stoic
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stoic83
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« Reply #29 on: February 06, 2013, 02:16:12 PM »

It's so very sad.  And the pain is so deep for us on this side of the board.   It's impossible to know what is best for our exes.  I've been there through all the mental health options with my ex. DBT, couples counseling,  non-violent communication... .  But it never worked for us because it was applying logical ideas to a person with a deeply disordered thought process.

And then I learned that recovery for people with BPD doesn't mean that they get self-awareness.  It means they just don't act out in the worse ways... .  such as cutting, suicide, violence, drug and alchohol addiction... .    It's just coping skills at best to survive. 

Hey,

I also wanted to say that what you said here makes a lot of sense... .  she said she knew that therapy couldn't help her, that AA and spirituality was the only thing that was going to help. I didn't want to hear this... .  I mean it sounded like her giving up hope for living an honest and conscious life. But I guess you are right, she knows that she has always had an illness... .  that is all she knows.

I truly believe that the treatment for this pd will continue to get better. I agree with your realism, but it is idealism which pushes things to get better... .  f the status quo.

If it makes me narcissitic to think that my idealism, or the idealism of a group, or the idealism of the entire human race couldn't be influential and make a change... .  a systemic change. Then I guess I am what I am.

It will be better for me to adopt healthier attitudes about things, but seeming as one of my majors was philosophy and I enjoyed reading about existentialists and idealists, and theories about religion, and moral relativism, and what is right and wrong is dictated by a society... .  and that I used to think there are a few universal truths and principles (which are violated and contradicted by those w mental illness).

This intrinsic and systemic sickness to our race manifests itself in certain people... .  but is it truly their fault? Or is it all of our fault, or nobody's fault... .  a random occurrence, nature vs nurture? If we are truly ONE, and all connected... .  

In any case, my T says that since that was a one-sided rs, my relationship w her is one-sided in the opposite direction. ... .  I have compassion fatigue and I'm starting to care about myself again little by little... .  To see that my house is pretty messy and I haven't cared about that for a long time... .  even when exwBPD was complaining and not doing anything to help. To see that MY dog needs a walk. To see that if i don't do anything professionally, I will be homeless. To see that I have created my own social isolation... .  and that people do actually enjoy my company and by holding myself back and shutting other people out I'm cheating myself, and the other person... .  and not giving myself the chance to make mistakes and get back to my core self. These annoying details , as they were to me in the throes of this rs, are becoming opportunities again... .  that feels good. I must be moving back out of survival mode and in to thriving mode... .  

I didn't need to see my friend the other day to know that anybody still gives a sht about me. I actually wanted to see him and see how things were going... .  I can't tell you how good that felt and how I'm realizing what a sht human I've been for the past several years. I was so rude to girls that showed friendly interest in me during this rs... .  like shutting down any opportunites to connect w people in healthier ways, in fear of her jealousy... .  or emotionally cheating or whatever. In the meantime... .  it was no skin off her back to go out and hookup like within a week after breaking up... .  whereas I would try and heal for several months, and she would come back and do a complete 180 using all sorts of quotes and aa propaganda or whatever to entice me to continue the rs.

I am looking forward to doing the inventory once I'm really out of the FOG and feeling more conscious and less blaming. I am excited that their are a ton of other people out there to love and get to know, who can offer me constructive criticism but generally giving and reciprocating w/ time, emotions, support, money... .  no more professional victims.

I have enough problems on my own to handle right now, and so my friendships will consist of people who do not have a lot more problems than I do right now... .  I need to focus on my own problems and my own dreams... .  not live in a mental prison.

Stoic

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