Do you believe the BPD's victim stories?

[BentNotBroken]

This is something that has been bothering me for quite a while. I have read dozens, if not hundreds of accounts of BPD's being the victims of horrible childhood abuse. However, based on the very elaborate fabrications that my BPD ex told about me, I am beginning to suspect that the childhood abuse stories are nothing more than fabrications of a disordered mind.

I have read several accounts of parents of BPD children here on this forum that have had to deal with the false accusations of their children, often directed at the parents, grandparents, siblings, teachers, counselors, etc. There is frequently no evidence of the abuse whatsoever, but the target's life is destroyed nonetheless, even if they are exonerated.

Is there anyone else that suspects that these "childhood victimization stories" are pure fabrication? Have you given it any consideration?

[Mupetto]

It’s a really good question. While I was with my uBPDw I believed every word she said. Why would I not? Now that I am out of the r/s I have begun to question the reality of her stories. I shared some (of her stories) with a friend the other day and they simply said “are you sure these things really happened”. So now if I reflect on the stories she will tell of our last 4 year together and I imagine that they will be all the black stuff that happened to her. Most of which she constructed because of the way she interacted with the world. She had an uncanny knack of seeing the world through a sinister lens. She would judge situations as negative.

As an example of how she would construct her world. I recall it was my birthday and we were sitting on a rock on the shoreline. Perfect day. Sunshine, clear blue warm water, gentle breeze. The only other people on the beach was another couple. As they walked past my eyes followed them. I had no other thought but how nice it was. I was accused of desiring the female and her blackness arrived. I could not recover it and the day turned sour and ended badly. She brought it up every birthday since. How I ruined her day.

[faithfull]

No I don't-- She told it was her dad who was abusing her, but it was actually a guy who she was cheating on me with him. I am actually laughing writing this. It just shows that how complicated this disorder is. They can't just live a peaceful/happy life. Constant source of trauma is needed 24/7.

[Mupetto]

I had three banners on the wall. Peace, Love and Happiness. She pointed at them one day and said she “I will never have those”.  She would not explain further. 

[OTH]

No idea what is true or not. I was told numerous lies about her parents. I do know her parents had a very difficult r/s and the mom left. Didn't come back into her life until she remarried.  I know them both. It is what it is. Doesn't make it better or worse. Our r/s blew up regardless. What's next

[Changed4safety]

I was actually able to verify that much of what he told me was true by another source whom I trusted.  I don't know about all of it.  He certainly was a ready liar about a whole ton of other things if he thought it would get him sympathy.

[Blessed0329]

I do believe what mine told me, especially in light of the fact he and his siblings have fractured relationships with each other, and substance abuse issues. My ex described his childhood as being chaotic and poverty stricken. He was the 3rd of 6 children born to a mother who he says tried very hard to keep a roof over their heads and food on the table but had no time for nurturing, and a father who was usually absent, but when around was drunk and violent to him, his siblings and their mother. He says he has an "attachment disorder" because there was no one around to bond with him when he was a child. This led to his own descent into drugs and criminal activity before he joined the army at age 18. All of this rings very true to me, and explains why he married a woman 9 years his senior, who to this day acts as his surrogate mother.

[OTH]

I was told numerous ridiculous lies. Didn't stop until I ended the romantic r/s for good and got her stuff out of my house.  Our r/s was comparatively easy after that. Gotta focus on what our next steps are away from this

[freshlySane]

yes and no when situations where a little confusing i asked her questions

she had a one year old when we started dating but she was exclusively in a three year relationship prior to the birth of her third child with a women so i asked. If you never cheat on anyone how come you have so and so if your in a Lesbian relationship. She told me her ex husband had raped her i believed it i was so angry and hated this guy. 8 months later she moves out of state to be with him. I sit there now realizing he never assaulted her or maybe he did but why would you live for a year with the man who assaulted it just didn't add up and just to clarify she cheated on practically ever person she is with. She told me once I grew up with no parents so i don't have to answer to anyone that was her response to me confronting her to her cheating on me.

[toliveistofly]

looking back, I believe very little. She told me stories of all types of abuse by her family and boyfriends, but I met her family and none of it seemed to fit. and I saw emails that she wrote to others about me and realized that she loves to play the role of victim and she is not going to let the truth get in the way of that.

[PrettyPlease]

This is something that has been bothering me for quite a while.

[snip]... .  

Is there anyone else that suspects that these "childhood victimization stories" are pure fabrication? Have you given it any consideration?

BentNotBroken,

Agreed this is an interesting question and natural to wonder about. Not only relative to BPD, but it appears to cause uproar and consternation wherever child abuse is discussed.

First I want to ask you though whether your "pure fabrication" is different from "fabrication"? If so, how? Are you using "pure" there as a pejorative, so that you mean: "it's fabrication, and that is a bad thing"; or do you mean that they've fabricated it "purely" without any history of child abuse to back it up?

I think there's a significant difference between the two. Since the object constancy disruption that BPD is theorized to be based on occurs supposedly between age 2 and 3, it might very well be that they were abused/neglected in a way that caused their BPD and yet left them no memory of the event, due to the combination of being too young and too traumatized. They thereafter could fabricate stories of abuse that represent that event.

If this is the case, then it really makes no difference for how you must deal with them -- you might later discover the details to be wrong about their abuse, but that doesn't mean they weren't abused, and certainly doesn't mean they don't have BPD. It won't change your strategy with them or with yourself.

If OTOH they weren't abused at all, and it's "pure fabrication"... .  well, but that wouldn't really be different either, would it? Unless you're saying that they don't have BPD. But if they do, then all that's happening is that they're lying to you. But this is one of the things that BPD people often do. The fact that it's about child abuse isn't really relevant unless someone is specifically accused publicly (which is a third, and different type of case).

I admit though that it's heart-wrenching and natural to want to believe their stories, at the start, and like everything else it's a bottom-drops-out loss of trust when you realize that you have no way of knowing whether the stories are true, and they might not be. But again, checking which specific child-abuse stories are true is a very difficult problem for anyone anywhere, since usually there are no credible witnesses left. It's only through the use of large-scale meta-studies, spanning dozens of countries world-wide, that we get a good picture of the amount of sexual abuse that is occurring (I think the Wikipedia page on Child Sexual Abuse has a reasonably good overview:

www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_sexual_abuse). Most people accept now that there is a lot, and also that it's much higher incidence in PDs (which is also supported in the studies).

My take then is that anyone who disagrees with this now is going to have to come up with a large number of well-designed studies to get their point across.

I'm not saying that you do necessarily, but that is how the tone of your post has come across to me.

And I'm not saying that you and the people who have posted in this thread aren't correct. You may all be with BPD people who are fabricating about their child-abuse. But I don't think this fact changes what will unfold in your r/s, unless worrying about it ends up being a red herring that distracts from other things that could be done.

PP

[elemental]

Mine doesn't really talk about his childhood very much. From what he says there were some financial issues, but everything else was basically good.

In terms of what he does say. Yes, I mostly believe him. I believe HE has the perception some things were awful scary, hurtful. And probably those things were.

He told me this morning that an old rival of his for me ran into him and tried to say some really terrible things. Now I actually talked to this old rival a couple of weeks ago. The guy said he ran into my BPD and he wanted to smooth the old upsets over so he said hey how about let by gones be bygones and have a beer or something sometime. This guy said my BPD just stared at him and said "I think I know you well enough already" and then he walked off.

The discord was 6 years ago.

[nylonsquid]

No. My exBPDgf's stories are as true as her claim that I am a cheater, cheapskate, controlling, abusive, cowardly, manipulative person. It's not like I wasn't WITH her in a relationship... .  okay, now that I think of it she could also skew that... haha. My point is, there is truth to what they say but their perception is so skewed that them saying they were abused by someone probably never happened, at least to the extent that they claim.

[GreenMango]

If the relationship got to point where you are having to fact check "everything" because there isn't any trust left in the relationship then there really isn't a relationship to be had anymore.  This is a horrible place to find yourself in, especially after the fact trying to put the pieces together to make sense of things.

The disorder really doesn't make a lot of logical sense (clinically there's all kinds of explanations/emotionally it's a little harder)... .  the disorder is your closure.

Bent sometimes surrendering and accepting is the only way to let go.

[BentNotBroken]

I posted this question to get feedback from others. I am not "seeking closure" or trying to prove that any specific individual wasn't abused.

I suspect that the child abuse stories of my ex were distorted versions of events that were scary or painful to her, which for some BPDs can be just about anything, and nothing even remotely approaching abuse actually occurred. I did ask what I thought was a specific question, but apparently much more was read into it.

From what I have read, there are several factors that have correlated with BPD, but no definitive causality has been identified. If child abuse were the definite causative factor, I would think that the prevalence of BPD would be much higher than the 2-6% currently estimated.

In no way did I intend my question to spark a debate on the causality of BPD. It may be a question that is not even answered in my lifetime, and it is of no significance to me at this point. I do not care what the cause of my BPDexgf's disorder is. At this point my only hope is that she get effective treatment for it so that she does not continue to abuse our son.

Please carry on with the discussion of the original question, I find the feedback to be very interesting and helpful to unraveling my own experience with my ex.

[GreenMango]

Bent why ask a question of this nature if you weren't looking for some kind of answers on the subject, it's a sensitive subject.  The nature of question of this kind is going to give a wide variety of responses due that. 

I don't really question the validity of the childhood trauma stories.  If someone said it happened it isn't up to me to reality test it.  As far as causation from an international study on twins 42%genetic predisposition to sensitivity and 58%environment.  Environment could be a wide variety of things... .  from neglect to invalidation to childhood abuse.  But developing BPD isn't solely based on abuse.  An invalidating or neglectful environment can do quite a bit of damage to a sensitive child.

I did question the perception of interactions mine had in adulthood because of the disorganized thinking and the wide variety of interpretations from one day to the next.  Unfortunately the lack of consistency really built a case against him and affected my ability to believe a lot of what he said.

[Somewhere]

If the relationship got to point where you are having to fact check "everything" because there isn't any trust left in the relationship then there really isn't a relationship to be had anymore.  This is a horrible place to find yourself in, especially after the fact trying to put the pieces together to make sense of things.

The disorder really doesn't make a lot of logical sense (clinically there's all kinds of explanations/emotionally it's a little harder)... .  the disorder is your closure.

Bent sometimes surrendering and accepting is the only way to let go.

True dat,

But I understand Bent's questions on this.

It is mostly just to shake off the disbelief of his own experience.

That is part of what a support board does --

Not so much always a cookie-cutter process of Thou Shall Only Get Better Thus and So.

Back towards Bent's question -- Yes my Princess Waif is a Victim for Life.  Real or Imaginary.

Our story.  I was working through real recovery from real child abuse PTSD on an online support group.  Princess Waif was hanging around the board and I was doing the White Knight thing geniunely working through my stuff, and trying to be supportive to others.

That was how we met.  Our first "date" was at my therapist.  I worked through my stuff and moved on through therapy.

We went for some years doing her BPD drama, with me totally clueless about what BPD even was.  I just attributed everything to her abuse stuff, and tried to be supportive.  Blew up when one night she wrote a suicide note to our kids and went out "for a walk."  

I figured I had to call either 911 or her mom for help.  Called her mom to start with, and explained some of our background.  I guess I was across the line on that, and later when I later told Princess Waif that I had told her mom, she became all crazed again, because it

Turns out Dad did not molest her and a whole bunch of other vicitmy stories are pretty hinky, as well.  

Now days I am supposed to The Evil One, so she runs around tellling AA friends how terrible things are.  I run across them and say, "HUH?"  

She was even trying the same crap on our daughter lately until I got our daughter into Ala-Teen.  

Homer Simpson was correct -- Takes two to lie -- one to lie and one to listen.

=========================

But overall, I am thinking Mango is correct:

If the relationship got to point where you are having to fact check "everything" because there isn't any trust left in the relationship then there really isn't a relationship to be had anymore.

[BentNotBroken]

My original questions:Is there anyone else that suspects that these "childhood victimization stories" are pure fabrication? Have you given it any consideration?

The "how dare you question someone that claims to have been abused as a child reaction" is exactly why I asked this question. I used to have the same response, but after being burned so severely by my own willingness to trust and believe what my BPDex was telling me, I have become more skeptical.

Think about it for a moment: When did your BPD first tell you the first victim story of being abused/raped/abused as a child? Mine was in the first 2-3 weeks of meeting her. She claimed to be previously abused by her husband (dead), and currently abused by her father. I did not question it at the time, and I was disarmed by her seeming candor about such a sensitive topic. (It also set me up for the 'rescuer' entry into her drama drama triangle).

She later claimed to have been molested as a child after being given alcohol. (This story may be true, it is impossible to verify either way). I also swallowed this story without question, but I do not remember the context that prompted her disclosure.

After she started painting me black, she created a tremendously complex narrative to rewrite our entire 15+ year history. Of course I was the villain in every segment, and had never contributed to her life in any way. It was as if the previous 15+ years of my life had been turned into a monstrous caricature. There was not one single mention of anything good or decent that I had done for her or our relationship. With each retelling of the story, I became more of a monster as she added newer, more horrific details. I understand this is part of the disorder, but it was initially a tremendous shock to me to be accused of such horrible conduct in legal documents that would help determine custody of our son.

After the initial shock wore off, I started to review the relationship to understand where I missed the red flags and how I was so completely duped. I suspect that the initial victim stories, and the ones that came later kept putting me off guard and provoking sympathy and compassion toward BPDex. When she had problems at work, there was a victim story that provided a smoke screen against examining what really happened. The victim stories were so convincing, I never doubted them.

I don't like the idea that I was duped from the very beginning, nor do I like the idea that someone would use fake stories of abuse to manipulate others, but this seems to be what actually happened with my relationship.

I am willing to accept that nearly everything she told me was either a lie or a manipulation. It is not a pleasant feeling to have the last 15 years of your life jerked out from under you, but at this point it is what it is. I accepted the information she gave me as truthful, made decisions based on that information, and ended up in a hell I never could have imagined.

And to add to the confusion of sorting out facts from fiction, she now denies ever telling me any abuse stories, claiming to the court that I am insane for even suggesting that she did.

Is this possibly an area to look at when trying to sort out the fact from fiction in the aftermath of a BPD relationship? I have read many posts where the non states, "he lied about this, she lied about that, he cheated on me, etc." but then the non goes on to state definitively, "BPDex suffered horrible abuse as a child for many years" when the only source they have for the information is the BPDex themselves. Is this just an unwillingness to examine the possibility that everything we know from the BPDex is just a fabrication of a disordered mind?

[Somewhere]

Is this possibly an area to look at when trying to sort out the fact from fiction in the aftermath of a BPD relationship? I have read many posts where the non states, "he lied about this, she lied about that, he cheated on me, etc." but then the non goes on to state definitively, "BPDex suffered horrible abuse as a child for many years" when the only source they have for the information is the BPDex themselves. Is this just an unwillingness to examine the possibility that everything we know from the BPDex is just a fabrication of a disordered mind?

Speaking as someone who did have to deal with these issues, I think your questions are valid.

Have to tell you I have mused some of the same.

Dunno it will profit you anything to figure it out.

Remember the old computer adege -- GIGO.  Garbage In Garbage Out.

[BentNotBroken]

I don't really question the validity of the childhood trauma stories.  If someone said it happened it isn't up to me to reality test it. 

This is a serious problem when the word of someone who is mentally ill, and has been proven not to be credible is given the same weight as anyone else. I shudder to think there are lawyers, police, and judges that have the same attitude on this.

Extending the benefit of the doubt to my BPDex pulled me further down the rabbit hole. I am not saying it is MY job to reality test it either, but I would like to know what information in my head is actually based on reality, and what information was part of the elaborate lie that my BPDex spun up to manipulate me emotionally. I would like to be able to identify the trap/manipulation before it gets sprung on me again in the future.

[viccijo]

I too have doubted his abuse claims. He only came up with these stories when I started to pull away from him. He said he has never told anyone before and he also claimed to have attempted suicide the same day he told me. Since then he has used it as another thing to put me down over, I apparently did not react correctly to him telling me he had been abused. It doesn't matter that while he was telling me he became angrier and angrier, finally repeatedly throwing my phone against the wall and storming out of the house. As far as he is concerned, I let him down when he needed me most.

The lies I have now discovered he has been telling can only lead me to believe everything out of his mouth has been a lie and manipulation. He knew I was ready to leave, he knew my mother had been abused so he used the one thing he knew would pull me back in and get him sympathy.

[Blessed0329]

My ex told me very little about his family of origin until I asked. In fact he never mentioned his father at all until I specifically asked about him. Then, when he relayed his remembrances of his father to me, the words were hard and cold, but his tone of voice was very "factual," and emotionless. All of his siblings are messed up in one way or another, with the youngest, a girl, apparently less damaged than the 5 older ones. But the mother decided to divorce the father b this time, then proceeded to marry 4 more "losers," as my ex called them.

[HostNoMore]

In retrospect, I do not believe much of anything that my BPD ever told me, or I least I seriously doubt its validity.  Strangely, some of the things she told me were dead on true.  Little gems like "I'm a horrible person." or "I am crazy" were most definitely true. 

The many years that I knew her before becoming enmeshed with her she would constantly berate her exH.  The guy could do nothing right.  She painted him black to our entire workplace so everyone disliked him myself included.  Now, that I've emerged from the other side of the mirage I have a diametrically different view of him, and what he endured.

BPDs will always lie whenever it suits them and their hidden impulse driven agenda.  Be it painting someone black or cheating, chronic lying is part of what make BPDs what they are.  They know exactly what they are doing and are fully conscious of their actions and the impact of those actions upon others.  However, the little impulsive inner 2 year that resides within them is always in the drivers seat of their brain.

[benny2]

I have often wondered if my ex's stories of how abusive his father was were true. He has been talking about them since I have know him, 17 years, and sometimes on a daily basis. However, people that knew his father just can't believe that he was like that. His father passed away 2 years ago and his last words to my ex when he stood at his bedside and asked his father if he knew who he was, his dad replied " yeah, my worst nightmare" Those last words spoken from his dad are going to remain in his mind forever. I moved in with him shortly after his dad passed. Perfect timing.

[elemental]

I did have an experience recently with my BPD that kind of left me pretty certain of something:

basically he has done some really terrible things. As a result I have lost trust and am afraid of what he may do. He has been trying persistently to keep me around, but fails to apologize, rebuild, show responsibility.

And then in late December 2012 he brought up an old issue and used it as my actions during that issue completely destroyed our relationship. He said I was out of control, in hysterics and raging for days over something really kind of stupid and as a result he decided he didn't want to be with me. That was almost 4 years ago. 

Anyway, he was out of town on a business trip and the conversations we had at that point were all on MSN. And I still have the msn logs. So I pull them up and not only did I NOT do what he said, HE was the one having the fit. And it was not all day for days. It was about an hour a day over 2 days.

I was actually able to show these logs to him and he said he was sorry and clammed up.

What I understood from that exchange is these "memories" are based on feelings not facts. He remembered feeling attacked and ashamed and it was very bad for him. I figured these emotional memories instead of FACTS, have allowed him to justify to himself mistreatment of me, no remorse, no apologies, no efforts on my behalf to regain trust...

I am not sure how to handle it. How do you? He really believed himself. I have been thinking on it and have distanced myself considerably.

Your ex's probably have really rewritten the facts to support their feelings. And what they feel is what they remember. And if they feel you were awful and destructive to them, they are going to cut you off, avoid you, evade you, attack you, blame you...

Their psyche is broken. I don't know what else to say.

My guy's solution, since he KNOWS he is the one who messed up so badly, but he FEELS it's all my fault,  but he still LOVES me... .  is to draw a line between now and the past and move on and try to do better.

I am not quite on board, as I have a lot of hurt and need processing time.

Also I wanted to ask the poster who's ex went back to his ex, who is 9 years older than him. You have mentioned the age gap several times. Do you really believe he is looking for a mother?

[Somewhere]

WOW!

That is amazing.

You actually got an "I Am Sorry,"  ?    

Now tell the truth . . .  Ever get a Thank You?

[elemental]

haha, yes I have!

[daintrovert13]

My ex still insisted up until the break up that I fell in love with the lies she told to "get a chance"

with me. I would have been a fool to believe the things she told me in the beginning. Like the reason

for her scars were because she had to wrestle a pit bull to the floor while she was in an inner city fight and got bit in the process. Or that she have been travelling to Puerto Rico and Florida for modelling. Been on many flyers and attended many promotional parties etc. I met her when she was 18. I was 23. That would mean that she had just graduated and couldn't possibly been making those type of moves when she in had high school to attend. That and a host of other things she said "would make her more appealing and exciting to me". She's 24 now and still honestly believe she manipulated me in to loving her with those almost comical un truths. )=

[OTH]

Happens all the time. Duke lacrosse case for example. Human interactions between nondisordered people are a mess. Add a mood disorder and it just gets worse. My ex did tell me a rape story. She was arrested and spent some time in jail at 18. She kneed him in the balls and beat him after he was hurt. I don't believe her version for various reasons. One being she is very upset he married and had kids and had an easy life after this. Mine faked a serious illness to avoid her brother's wedding.

Life is a wide spectrum. The current belief shared by most is BPD comes from a child genetically predisposed to emotional sensitivity and subject to abuse. Real or perceived. What a large window that is!

I don't really question the validity of the childhood trauma stories.  If someone said it happened it isn't up to me to reality test it. 

This is a serious problem when the word of someone who is mentally ill, and has been proven not to be credible is given the same weight as anyone else. I shudder to think there are lawyers, police, and judges that have the same attitude on this.

Extending the benefit of the doubt to my BPDex pulled me further down the rabbit hole. I am not saying it is MY job to reality test it either, but I would like to know what information in my head is actually based on reality, and what information was part of the elaborate lie that my BPDex spun up to manipulate me emotionally. I would like to be able to identify the trap/manipulation before it gets sprung on me again in the future.

[charred]

My exBPDgf had an abuse story... but it wasn't her folks or when she was young. She said she was picked on and pounded on every day by some girls in grade school and insulted by them for being catholic... and that her parents wouldn't do anything about it, just told her to buck up and defend herself... .  and her reactions are strong enough I am inclined to believe that is the BPD making experience for her.

The abuse story... is that her first husband beat her because he was stupid and intimidated by her smarts. He had a mistress who gave him an STD and he passed it to her and that is what led to her putting him on couch and him beating her every day... .  that is her abuse story... and that she had the marriage annulled so she could re-marry in the church.

I doubt the story because I know her, and everyone that didn't work out was painted black... .  and made to sound horrible. Fact is I don't know, and don't care... .  she was disordered long before then.