Exploring my fascination with BPD

[Depression = 72% of members]

I am a step mom of children of a BPD mom.  I have been with my husband, and thus dealing with this BPD person, for almost 6 years.  So I am a "secondary-non," someone who has never been drawn to a BPD person for a relationship or friendship.  I have generally had good boundaries with troubled people, never been romantically involved with someone disturbed in that way.  But I find myself at various times really fascinated by BPD, and focusing on BPDex's dysfunction to a degree that makes my life less happy.

Part of this is that during the past 6 years, the BPD ex of my husband has created a huge amount of stress, drama, and pain in our lives.  I have been through some kind of cycle with all of this.  At first, I did not realize how mentally ill BPDmom was. When I did understand that, I thought that she would eventually be open to me, as I was really okay with her craziness, could be okay with who she is. I imaged a kooky but accepting blended family. Slowly I came to realize that she was not able to just be okay with life, that she needed to be the victim of it, and that DH and I are the primary targets of that blame.

In my inner process, I also went through phases.  First, I was thrilled by how my way of setting boundaries and being loving seemed to be working with the BPD ex of my DH.  She seemed to be calming down with me, more loving. I started to realize the toll on me and my family emotionally, and that my strategy was less and less effective.  It seemed that she was willing to lie and manipulate even when it disadvantaged her, and that while there was some real love in her, most of her way of relating to me was putting on a facade to manipulate. As my awareness shifted, I was thrilled to discover this website and lots of other BPD resources, at the suggestion of therapist friends who thought her behavior sounded like BPD.  I read many books and articles in an attempt to understand this perplexing person.  There was something fascinating about how self-destructive and warped she was, how what was on the surface was totally different that what I learned over time. 

We went through two years of custody litigation, and the worst of the worst came out.  False accusations of sexual abuse, lots of rage and lies and attacks.  And I got tired of it.  Tired of being afraid, tired of being wrapped up in the drama.  I became aware that she was just creating a lot of fluff, and that DH and I were empowering it by taking it at all seriously.  For several years, almost every conversation I had with a close friend was about how hard it was dealing with her drama, about the latest ridiculous, painful thing. 

So I started to extract myself.  We got done with the litigation, I stopped wanting to know the details.  DH started protecting me from the TMI effect; and I quit involvement in things I was involved in that meant more contact with her.  I pulled way back, worked on other projects. 

For most of the past year, I have just not thought as much about her.  I rarely log onto this site, am not quite as fascinated by BPD. 

But there is still some kind of hook.  I am wondering about what that is.  As long as I am married to DH, she will be in my life.  But I do not have to magnify that by bringing her into my mind and life when she is not doing that on her own. 

So I have been seeing a counselor and am really working on letting go of needing to focus on her at all.  I am looking at WHY I have her in my mind at all, other than when she is in front of my eyes.  I only rarely obsess about her now.  It is usually following some threatened or real dramatic event.  I am wondering if any of you, especially :non-nons" or "secondary nons," find that you have this fascination, and whether you have tried to let it go, and what seem to be the hooks or reasons you are attached to or interested in your ex's dysfunction. 

Here are all of the reasons I can see that I might be holding onto this: 

1. Natural interest in mental illness--I have always been interested in abnormal psychology, have worked with mentally ill people, and as a teen was especially interested in dissociative mental illness.  I do not have mental illness in my family or in any significant friends in my youth; but both my parents were therapists and exposed me to interesting mentally ill people.  In college, I worked with various mentally ill people. 

2. Safety--DH's BPD ex has threatened to kill us, to report me for various kinds of child abuse, etc.; so part of my attempts to understand are intended to develop effective tools for avoiding and addressing dangers she poses. 

3. Blame--Being a step-parent, or any parent, brings out all kinds of challenges.  While the experience is mostly positive for me, I still see lots of flaws in myself; because BPD ex constantly blames me and lambastes me for any mistep or success I make, and because there is some feeling I have of making mistakes, my attentiveness to her mental illness could be partly a way of just throwing the blame back on her, of reassuring myself that it is not that I am bad, but that she is crazy. 

4. Some sort of perverse rubber-necking--there is some kind of natural fascination with a train wreck.  And she is such a train wreck.  Getting a DUI the week after she files a custody motion asking for more time because she is such a good mom.  Raging at DH about an exchange, and then driving ten miles on a flat tire and calling him to rescue her.  These are just minor recent issues... .  it is really fascinating high drama.  PArt of me is fascinated just because I can't wait for the next installment, for the sheer entertainment value. 

5. Her failure emphasizes DH's success as a parent, and I am his ally and so love to store these up. 

6. It feels like there is something more, though... .  something about her problems creating a purpose and focus to family life that, while I love my family, I also find somewhat tedious, a big departure from the adventure filled life before my family. 


How about all of you?  Are you more attached than you want to be to the story of the BPD person in your life?  And WHY do you think you hang on to this? 

[ennie]

I am a step mom of children of a BPD mom.  I have been with my husband, and thus dealing with this BPD person, for almost 6 years.  So I am a "secondary-non," someone who has never been drawn to a BPD person for a relationship or friendship.  I have generally had good boundaries with troubled people, never been romantically involved with someone disturbed in that way.  But I find myself at various times really fascinated by BPD, and focusing on BPDex's dysfunction to a degree that makes my life less happy.

Part of this is that during the past 6 years, the BPD ex of my husband has created a huge amount of stress, drama, and pain in our lives.  I have been through some kind of cycle with all of this.  At first, I did not realize how mentally ill BPDmom was. When I did understand that, I thought that she would eventually be open to me, as I was really okay with her craziness, could be okay with who she is. I imaged a kooky but accepting blended family. Slowly I came to realize that she was not able to just be okay with life, that she needed to be the victim of it, and that DH and I are the primary targets of that blame.

In my inner process, I also went through phases.  First, I was thrilled by how my way of setting boundaries and being loving seemed to be working with the BPD ex of my DH.  She seemed to be calming down with me, more loving. I started to realize the toll on me and my family emotionally, and that my strategy was less and less effective.  It seemed that she was willing to lie and manipulate even when it disadvantaged her, and that while there was some real love in her, most of her way of relating to me was putting on a facade to manipulate. As my awareness shifted, I was thrilled to discover this website and lots of other BPD resources, at the suggestion of therapist friends who thought her behavior sounded like BPD.  I read many books and articles in an attempt to understand this perplexing person.  There was something fascinating about how self-destructive and warped she was, how what was on the surface was totally different that what I learned over time. 

We went through two years of custody litigation, and the worst of the worst came out.  False accusations of sexual abuse, lots of rage and lies and attacks.  And I got tired of it.  Tired of being afraid, tired of being wrapped up in the drama.  I became aware that she was just creating a lot of fluff, and that DH and I were empowering it by taking it at all seriously.  For several years, almost every conversation I had with a close friend was about how hard it was dealing with her drama, about the latest ridiculous, painful thing. 

So I started to extract myself.  We got done with the litigation, I stopped wanting to know the details.  DH started protecting me from the TMI effect; and I quit involvement in things I was involved in that meant more contact with her.  I pulled way back, worked on other projects. 

For most of the past year, I have just not thought as much about her.  I rarely log onto this site, am not quite as fascinated by BPD. 

But there is still some kind of hook.  I am wondering about what that is.  As long as I am married to DH, she will be in my life.  But I do not have to magnify that by bringing her into my mind and life when she is not doing that on her own. 

So I have been seeing a counselor and am really working on letting go of needing to focus on her at all.  I am looking at WHY I have her in my mind at all, other than when she is in front of my eyes.  I only rarely obsess about her now.  It is usually following some threatened or real dramatic event.  I am wondering if any of you, especially :non-nons" or "secondary nons," find that you have this fascination, and whether you have tried to let it go, and what seem to be the hooks or reasons you are attached to or interested in your ex's dysfunction. 

Here are all of the reasons I can see that I might be holding onto this: 

1. Natural interest in mental illness--I have always been interested in abnormal psychology, have worked with mentally ill people, and as a teen was especially interested in dissociative mental illness.  I do not have mental illness in my family or in any significant friends in my youth; but both my parents were therapists and exposed me to interesting mentally ill people.  In college, I worked with various mentally ill people. 

2. Safety--DH's BPD ex has threatened to kill us, to report me for various kinds of child abuse, etc.; so part of my attempts to understand are intended to develop effective tools for avoiding and addressing dangers she poses. 

3. Blame--Being a step-parent, or any parent, brings out all kinds of challenges.  While the experience is mostly positive for me, I still see lots of flaws in myself; because BPD ex constantly blames me and lambastes me for any mistep or success I make, and because there is some feeling I have of making mistakes, my attentiveness to her mental illness could be partly a way of just throwing the blame back on her, of reassuring myself that it is not that I am bad, but that she is crazy. 

4. Some sort of perverse rubber-necking--there is some kind of natural fascination with a train wreck.  And she is such a train wreck.  Getting a DUI the week after she files a custody motion asking for more time because she is such a good mom.  Raging at DH about an exchange, and then driving ten miles on a flat tire and calling him to rescue her.  These are just minor recent issues... .  it is really fascinating high drama.  PArt of me is fascinated just because I can't wait for the next installment, for the sheer entertainment value. 

5. Her failure emphasizes DH's success as a parent, and I am his ally and so love to store these up. 

6. It feels like there is something more, though... .  something about her problems creating a purpose and focus to family life that, while I love my family, I also find somewhat tedious, a big departure from the adventure filled life before my family. 


How about all of you?  Are you more attached than you want to be to the story of the BPD person in your life?  And WHY do you think you hang on to this? 

[morningagain]

"We went through two years of custody litigation, and the worst of the worst came out.  False accusations of sexual abuse, lots of rage and lies and attacks.  And I got tired of it.  Tired of being afraid, tired of being wrapped up in the drama.  I became aware that she was just creating a lot of fluff, and that DH and I were empowering it by taking it at all seriously.

ennie,

First let me commend you on your realization and acting on it!  This is the realization that those of us that still live within an r/s or are still detaching from the wounds of becoming enmeshed in the distortions for so long struggle to understand and follow through with.  I love the phrase "empowering it by taking it all seriously".  By not empowering 'it' we remove/reduce the damage done in the moment and in the aftermath.

My advice is to keep this in the forefront of your mind.  You have a vested interest in understanding the disorder - your H and step-kiddies.  So many of the 'tools' I have learned here help me dealing with anybody in my life, starting with myself.

For me, I have made a lot of progress, and I may likely end up divorced.  She is my wife, I do love her, but I no longer love the fantasy I had  about her.  

What keeps me interested is that I want to be of help, but not to rescue - rescuing her from some predicament she put herself in that she can handle or probably needs to experience the consequences of enables her and diminishes me.  To the extent that I can support her and not get sucked in (to the FOG, i.e. I allow my boundaries to be trampled and become confused and distressed and give more than I should), I would like to.  However, it is easy to get sucked in, so some of my boundaries must be more rigid in acknowledgment of my own weaknesses.  For example, living in a different state keeps me from potential face to face contact.  Someone that is stronger holding their boundaries with their ex could maintain healthy contact while living in the same town.  An exceptional person who also has a personality makeup that fits what their particular BPD spouse can give AND are comfortable holding their boundaries can maintain a mutually healthy relationship living under the same roof with their BPD spouse.

It is a changing situation for me, but I try to keep appropriate distance/boundaries that allow me to heal, function, and rebuild my life.  If I find myself becoming too consumed so that my observable life-functioning is decreasing or stagnating, that is a good warning sign to back off - to establish or re-establish boundaries I can function in again.

Another reason for interest is by understanding deeper the underlying issues of BPD, I am able to better understand less severe but common dysfunctional constructs I might have in my own psychological makeup.  Something caused me to lose control, to become depressed, to trash my self worth, to permit boundaries to be violated I never dreamed in a million years I would permit, to lose so much of my 'self', to exhibit behaviors characteristic of BPD such as to have more black and white thinking, or to become emotionally dysregulated.  I had to understand her better to understand me better.

[Somewhere]

"entertained by it" you say . . .

Sort of, but not really.

Look up "drama triangle" as a search if you are not familiar?

To really understand what is going on, look up "amygdala and BPD." 

In short . . . . Brain Damage. 

Sort of like watching Mr. Magoo drive.

[yeeter]

Hi ennie,

You have an interesting story and I applaud you for the changes you have been able to make and the impact you are having on your family. 

You list some good reasons that might be the cause of you hanging on.  Each, or a combination.

But you are looking for some deeper reason.  My first thought is that this person will always be a part of your life in some way, and this in and of itself is reason enough.

FOO is a good place to start to explore more.  Was there something in your upbringing that wanted everything neat and orderly and well defined?  What was the model you were faced with in learning to deal with crazy people (for me I had none... .  So this is all very new, and that in itself was part of my issue that allowed it).  This is one that can't be 'solved'.  There isn't an answer per se (I know this kept me getting in deeper, because I have always been able to figure it out and make it work... .  But not this one, so you have to give up on this concept)

Does dealing with her create a sense of commonality and teamwork for your family?  In this way it would pull you all together.  Course you can do this but pick a different focal point, but this one is common, and intense, so an easy one.

[atcrossroads]

Interesting stuff (your post and BPD).  Piggy-backing on your theory of her antics being entertaining to some extent, maybe part of it is that constant exposure to her dysfunction reinforces how healthy/normal YOU are.  Kind of like watching the Jerry Springer show -- you suddenly realize how small your problems are and how "normal" you are when you see so much cRaZy. 

None of us is perfect, but at least we see things with a clear lens (well, maybe a bit "foggy" for some of us!) compared to the kaleidoscope lenses the BPD looks through.

[ennie]

"entertained by it" you say . . .

Sort of, but not really.

Look up "drama triangle" as a search if you are not familiar?

To really understand what is going on, look up "amygdala and BPD." 

In short . . . . Brain Damage. 

Sort of like watching Mr. Magoo drive.

Yes, I am familiar with both.  Done lots of work with the Karpman triangle model; useful up to a point, but not entirely given my distance from BPD mom.  Also, for me at this point it is not about understanding it (which I do think is useful), but about understanding what is important to me about focusing on this BPD person when I do not need to and am not in a victim, rescuer, or persecutor role... .  there is something else going on here. 

[ennie]

Thanks much for the thoughts.  This is the senior board, and I was hoping to hear from others, especially senior SEs, who find themselves more attached that they would like to the idea of BPD or the idea of the dysfunction of their partner's ex.  I am not really looking for advice, or what you think I am experiencing, but what YOU are experiencing.  That said, I found your responses interesting and useful. 

Michael:  I really appreciate the perspective of folks who choose to remain in a r/s with BPD person, as in some weird way, I am also engaged in that practice.  And strangely, I do have love for her, though she is the mom of my SDs and is not someone I would ever want to have an intimate daily relationship with.  I think in some odd way the key for me is in my ability to accept that I will love her and want to have it be better just because of who I am, even if that is not possible.  It is not a rescue, or a desire to fix her, just my own focused nature spinning off of the very natural feeling of wanting to have it be better with someone in my life I know loves the kids I love the best she can.  There is something very simple about sending my sick SD off with my husband to meet her mommy, and wanting just to have it be loving for the sake of my SD; I cannot control her, and she will not probably ever make that possible on a regular basis; but likewise, I cannot control the part of me that just wants that.  Just like you love your wife, and may end up separating, but it does not change the fact of your love. 

Yeeter:  Like you, I had little experience with craziness growing up, so I think part of this is that I am also trying to put together a model... .  big learning curve, this the focus on learning and processing as much as possible.  I also have a kind of mind that just wants to solve the problem, and will focus on it until it is solved--which could be seen as obsessive, or just focused.  I had very little "trauma" as a child, and I think this is a huge "aha" for me in terms of understanding how trauma acts on us.  The impact of mild trauma created by BPD mom on me is really surprising, and gives insight into how her mind must work, only after being subjected to far worse trauma as a very little girl. 

At a crossroads:  this resonates most with me... .  and so the question is why I NEED to be reinforced for being "normal," when I have always perceived myself this way.  I am working with a great therapist right now who has given me some great mirroring/feedback of perceiving me as a leadership person with an expansive style that will always result in lots of feedback from others; but I am also a pretty sensitive person who is hurt by some of that stuff.  So there is just a fundamental reality that I am constantly getting feedback from others because I am often in a leadership role; she is helping me feel and be aware of the pain associated with that.  While I feel generally psychologically normal, I think there is a way that I am not quite up for the attention I get from others due to my convictions and personality.  So I am looking to "make up" for that, to feel "enough."

Also, there is just the reality that if someone says bad things about you a lot, especially cutting things about people I love (BPD mom goes for the injury of "the kids hate you" a lot), there is a way that it hurts even if you are not especially weak in that area.  That it hurts, and I hold on because I have not found an effective way of soothing that hurt.  And maybe I will not find one. 

Thanks.  Would love more conversation, especially from folks who find themselves in a similar situation, and have their own introspective thoughts on this. 

[MaybeSo]

Well I can relate to most of your reasons for the fascination including always being interested in the study of psychology.

I thought for years my family was terribly boring and very normal; when actually, I grew up with quite a cast of characters that i have been trying to understand since about age 5... .  co dependent parents, dad with some NPD traits, step mother who is clearly high functioning BPD... .  a crazy Aunt and Uncle, etc. There was more going on in my FOO than I realized.

You kind of dismissed the Karpman triangle as being not very relevant because of your distance from this woman. I'd give that a liitle more consideration. It is not at all necessary you be living with someone, related or intimate... .  to be heavily invested in a drama triangle. It's just a way of relating and a belief system common in Western Culture that entangles, entertains, distracts and involves immediate anxiety reduction as opposed to sitting with our own feelings and focus on our own self care.  You can be on a drama triangle all in your own head without anyone actually participating with you or even being in a room with you,  lots of cognitive behavioral therapy addresses self defeating thought patterns that if broken down, represent the voices of victim, persecutor, or rescuer... .  that are going on in our own head space.  The drama triangle is an

addiction cycle and it's powerful stuff. The normal nons in my family spent a lot of time focusing on the strange behavior of others we saw as NUTZ in my family, or in the world. It was almost a ritual, it kept us in one up position, it provided comic relief and entertainment (anxiety reduction) and it was just the way my family handled crazy. But it was almost like an addiction, there was a "hook" and there still is; it's something I have to be aware of at all times. I even have to consciously curtail my participation on this site, and I am aware now of my impulse to make others the focal point of my sharing with friends, etc.,  if I didn't, I could easily burn hours focused on the drama of others at the expense of attending to my own life. I was weaned on drama triangle thoughts & patterns; it's pretty common in western culture. I also have shifted from a focus to others craziness to a curiosity about my own crziness and my own shadow; we all have some crazy in us! Our focus on others "stuff" is often a reflection of our own unowned parts!

[yeeter]

I also have a kind of mind that just wants to solve the problem, and will focus on it until it is solved--which could be seen as obsessive, or just focused. 

For sure I am this way.  'I can do anything'  (and to a large degree, have been successful at anything I have set my mind to my entire life).  Am blessed this way.

But this one... .  well, aspects of it are just not 'solvable'.  A friend of mine had this really driven home - she lost her life savings, and also other members of her family money, in a startup that went south - to a large degree due to a dishonest egomaniac at the helm.  She fought it for a couple years, along with some of the other investors (some who lost millions)

Finally one of the lead investors, after throwing in the towel and writing off the losses, pulled her aside and and said:  "You know Martha (not her real name), sometimes you lose"

It was really hard for her to hear this.  But I related. 

"Sometimes you lose"

And more importantly, she has slowly been making the transition to letting it go and focusing on going forward.  This senior investor understood this.  That once the writing was on the wall, it was time to just accept a loss and put your energy into something that COULD be productive.  (the opportunity cost of staying stuck/obsessed on something that wasnt going to change and prevented her from doing other great things).

Keep digging for yourself.  The pay off is, that once you understand it and let go you can apply these energies towards something more productive for yourself.

[ennie]

You kind of dismissed the Karpman triangle as being not very relevant because of your distance from this woman. I'd give that a liitle more consideration.

I am not saying that the Karpman triangle is not relevant (or if I did, that is more by way of saying those issues are seriously and ongoingly vetted as the T DH and I work with is really into Karpman triangles.  And while I do not think my family is diagnosable, we have our issues for sure.  But I am 43, have been working with T's with my FOO and on my own since age 14, as both parents are Ts... .  [that in and of itself is enough to make a person nuts!]... .  so my reason for coming here is more to look outside of my regular tool box.  My sense is that part of the reason it is hard to get outside of dealing with the BPD person in my life (which is different than my intense interest in her) is because of a "mandatory rescue" scenario.  My T talks about the idea that children require "mandatory rescue," as they cannot do it without parental help.  I feel like a lot of my "rescue" situations are somewhat conscious, but situations in which I have to either be involved or deal with really challenging consequences.  In that case, first BPD mom persecutes, DH or the kids are victim; then I rescue, resent it, and later persecute when I find I am not getting things done in my life that are important to me.  With my DH, if it is jut between me and him, the "way out" of the triangle tends to be negotiation, or me having clear boundaries.  The trouble with dealing with the addition of BPDmom is that if no action happens, she will ramp up until we are seriously threatened in some way, and without me intervening, no action happens.  I have been through exploring how I deal this in numerous ways at numerous times, and frankly am fairly satisfied with the current situation though at certain moments I feel differently! 

The specific issue I am grappling with in this post is that when nothing is happening, when I am not rescueing, persecuting, or victiming, there is a way I am holding BPD mom with me when I do not need to.  I am not saying it is not as a result of a K triangle somehow, but that understanding that has not been a useful tool in changing that issue (though has been useful in actually changing DH and my dynamic).  I feel pretty good about where things are at overall, but I have a tendency to focus intensely on unresolvable puzzles--not necessarily from a rescue perspective.  Like if I find a word I do not know I hold it with me until I can look it up; or little logic puzzles stay with me until I resolve them; and I love problem solving in the physical world--thinking through all the objects that could fill that gap that needs to be filled for the thingy to work.  It is in that arena I feel stuck, that I want to let go of having BPD mom in my life when she is not there.  It is complicated enough when she is there! 

My guess at this point is that the answer is in the realm of mediation, coupled by making the rest of my life more round so that now that the biggest drama is over, it is not an addiction just because it is something interesting to focus on.  Perhaps it is just as simple as that I find abnormal psychology interesting, and that lacking other focal points, I focus on BPDmom!

And my childhood was far from boring... .  and my parents and I and brother have tons of things we are working out on an ongoing basis... .  but it is just that it is an area that has been thoroughly vetted, and I have the unusual situation of living in a small town and having a T that also has seen my folks, done family T with us 30 years ago; and, my family is really up front about what is going on.  As much as we can be.  I have a dad, who like me, is psychologically healthy but in the non-disordered, "healthy" range of narcissistic; a mom who is also pretty "healthy," but definitely a challenging person for me, and for sure some of the feeling of being powerless with the BPD person in my life reminds me most of the most challenging scenarios with my mom... .  so there is meat in there, but I live in the same community as my parents, so this is not a deep dark past, out-of-sight, out-of-mind kind of thing, but relationships that are active and evolving.  My FOO went on a road trip this past year for a family funeral, first one in 25 or 30 years, and I was definitely reminded of my own rough edges, and the dynamics that spawned them and that I contribute to!  But I have explored that stuff a lot, and feel like the challenges I present to others and carry with me are now more in my lap than others, and a lot of my work is just the ongoing struggle of noticing my impacts and how I am affected by others in my life, making the adjustments I can, and making peace with the imperfections in life.

[yeeter]

Well, let me pick out some pieces that I read here:

You have done a lot of work on understanding yourself and ways to interact with this person.  In general, you are satisfied with this and thats not the issue.

The issue is that you are somewhat obsessed with them - at times when there is no real reason for you to be.  You are hanging onto this mental presence.  But you would rather not be.  (but there is something you get out of it!  Or you wouldnt do it - simple human nature)

You are acknowledging a strong desire to solve problems as part of your nature.  And an interest in abnormal psychology which this person gives you a focal point for.

I like your suggestion that its nothing more than not having other outlets to focus on.  Imagine this:  If a member of your family was going through a medical crisis - say your child got cancer - would you be so obsessed with the BPD person then?

If not then... .  there you have it.  Go get some other hobbies and interests, and leave the abnormal psyche books on the shelf.  (or if its still a curiosity, maybe just find a different subject matter to study). 

Some people here suggest that by focusing on others dysfunction, it gives us the personal satisfaction of 'one upping' the other person (I am better than you type of thinking).  Could it be something like this?  Given she is an ex... .  are there any subconscious comparisons you are making between you/her?

[almost789]

Yes, I do find a fascination with BPD and the inter workings of it. I find I am spending too much time on it, yes. I am a problem solver by nature and obsessive as well. I've obsessed over many topics of interest. I'm not quite ready to let this one go yet. I guess I haven't learned all I want to learn. Probably because the problem is not yet solved. Nor have I found it to be time to give it up yet. I'm not trying to "save" my pwBPD. I know I can not be a therapist. I prefer expertise and I am smart enough to know I am not an expert. I also know that even if I was a therapist that I could not be HIS therapist because of the dynamics of our relationship. So, despite what I hear all too frequently that maybe I am trying to save him, I am aware that he has to save himself. Nothing can happen without his acknowledgment and desire to get to therapy. I also know that I can not manage a "relationship" with him. But that doesn't mean I have to completely abandon him either. At the same time I feel given what I have learned, if he choses to seek therapy I would be very valuable to him in finding the correct specialist. I would lead him in the right direction and he would chose his therapist based on his personal repore with the therapist. After of course I provided him with the expertise list of options.  Also, it is that I deeply care for this person who is completely alone and lost and I am not ready to abandon him if he asked for my help I would give it. Hes' in denial at the moment, but I don't rule out he will be back.

[ennie]

Yeeter!  How funny... .  I thought I had posted a new reply to your last post, and I had timed out while working... .  but here is the reply, which basically comes to the same conclusion, albeit in my more round about, verbose manner!  Thanks so much for your insight.  This has been really helpful.  Here is the post I wrote this morning... .  

"Sometimes you lose"

Yeeter, I wrote the above post before reading yours.  That is so right on for me.  I also have been very successful in what I have taken on, and have also arranged my life to avoid things I do not care for... .  not in a picky or petty way; I do not make my life easy or overly convenient.  An example is that I am an attorney, but I do not like the ultra-competitive, ego focused attorney world (partly as I have that as part of who I am I find comes out more around that situation), so I created my own projects, and ended up far more professionally successful because of doing it that way.  Similarly with art, I did not want to pursue an art career as I enjoy making art, not the business of art... .  so I returned to my small town afte art school, just as a NY art dealer moved to town and asked to represent me.  So I have sort of avoided the normal route, and ended up succeeding anyway. 

I think this is what is happening here, as well.  I chose not to be a mom because I wanted my work with kids to really "count" in a way that parenting seemed to lack--I saw parents' parenting getting lost in the minutia, and there are just so many things I want to do in life.  I worked with kids a lot for most of my life, so I sort of knew what it meant to be with kids 24/7, and did not want the hard work.  But I end up falling into this family.  On the one hand, I feel totally engulfed and have a really hard time finding my own self and aims in this family, which I think is why I did not want to be a parent.  But on the other hand, I have half of my days to recover  from kids, and I really love them and connect with them, and do see that I am far more able to give my "gifts," as well as learn the lessons the kids teach, because it is part time.  I think the best things I get out of parenting are the hard won lessons of humility, patience, perseverance in loving. 

And ultimately, one of the best things I am learning is that "sometimes you lose," and more broadly, that it does not have to be perfect to be what you want to do.  I think I avoid doing some things because I know it will be messy, that I may lose.  And that some of the things I am avoiding are really worth doing.  But I may fail.  I think I am pretty open to taking risks in general--I have kayaked down the grand canyon, been on many solo bike trips, have started non-profits which have succeeded and failed, and I do no really mind failing.  But there are some things at which I WOULD mind failing that I therefor do not want to risk.  Right now, I am thinking of starting an organization of which I would be more the center, and it is really scary. 

Thanks for your great attention to my challenge here, folks.  I feel like this is helping.  I think this is unraveling a bit for me. 

What I see is that part of the attraction of BPD mom is that she is a "valid" distraction from me being able to take on projects in life that might fail, and that maybe are more significant for me because what I am working on now in my life is more close to what I really like and want to do.  When I was younger, a lot of my hard work was focused on things that were important to me, but in an unrefined way.  Like I knew I cared about environmental issues and focused on successful campaigns, but was not as clear about what role I wanted in that world.  I have tended to pour everything into a project I am working on, and find it hard to have clear boundaries around my home/self/peaceful life.  The work I want to do now is both more demanding, but really would allow me to define my own life.  And that is scary.  My response is to be lazy and slow in developing my projects, which then makes my life seem a little blah... .  and into that environment, a fascinating, emotion-churning, gravity-defying, BPD person seems like an interesting diversion.  Add to that the fact that she is the most insoluble problem in my life, and my little puzzle mind gets ticking... .  

There is the "Sometimes you lose" reality, and then there is also the "sometimes it cannot be resolved."  But why would I think it SHOULD be resolvable? 

[ennie]

Yeeter: as to the "one upsmanship," there may be a teensy bit of that, but I do not think it is in any way primary.  I am not very competitive in general with exes of my mates; as I was in my late thirties when I became involved with my DH, I had lots of prior experience with this aspect of me.  Also, DH has other exes who are more functional, who are a regular part of our lives together and I like them and feel comfortable with our relationship and admire them, in fact.  BPD mom is pretty much a disaster--she is very low functioning, alcoholic, and so forth.  DH left her, and was clearly emotionally "done" with the relationship when I became involved (he left her, and she was the one filed for divorce, so from the outside it seemed like both were emotionally done).  I think I might feel differently if DH was still entangled--but he really wants no communication with her beyond what he must have, and did a lot of counseling work before I was in the picture to get over anger at her, so he is kind but distant, which is totally non-triggering for me.  As mentioned in my first post, the only scrap of this has to do with how much rage and blame BPD mom has launched in my direction and the direction of DH's and my families, including telling really false stories about is to the kids' teachers and other professionals and people in their lives.  So there is some degree to which I am trying to "make a case" to others that this is baloney, and the way to do that is to let them in a little on where the stories come from--her dysfunction.  Otherwise, no one would be able to understand why a mom would paint the picture she paints if there were not some truth in it.  So there is a little bit of me hoarding negative facts to use to dispell the worst stories.  These include false allegations of sexual and physical abuse, as well as more ordinary and bizarre stories changing timelines to make it seem that DH left her for me (which is years off the mark) or that I hate her, and similar more normal and believable stuff.  I grew up here and am respected and liked, as is DH,  so these rumors do not get far.  But I hear about them all the time--a friend I have not seen in awhile telling me about running into BPD mom and realizing the terrible stepmom she was talking about was me.  I think this is a terrible trap--because there is a real reason for me to "make a case" to show that the stories are not true, but that is not a way of relating to others that I like.  Outside of this experience, people who are upset about me and say hard things about me usually say stuff that is reasonable from their perspective--so when I hear it, it makes sense to me, and if I hear it from a third party, I can say "I can see why she said that; I think I really hurt her feelings," and then I can get back to the initial person and communicate about it, whether or not a resolution is possible. 

With BPD mom, the stories are so disconnected from me, that if I am truthful I fear that I sound defensive--and infact, with people I do not know, it takes about 6 months of knowing BPD mom before her story is questioned.  I have had SD12's teachers say to me, ":)o you think you could ever try being nice to BPD mom?  I think it would mean a lot to your SD," when friends know well that I am very nice, have given presents and cards, am always polite, and genuinely care about her, though have had a lot of difficulty over being related to her.  But BPD mom has told people that I hate her.  At any rate, my initial way of relating to BPD mom was less critical of her dysfunction, more direct, and that seemed to flop because people tended to think this was a "normal" mom/step-mom scenario.  But focusing on the problems with BPD mom makes me feel yucky. 

LifeGoesOn: I really relate to what you are saying.  I do not tend to be a "savior" type in personal relationships (though in my work, I tend to be cause or goal driven).  I think part of my problem is that I get overwhelmed by just the sensory reality of being with others a lot of the time, and so how I have dealt with non-kid relationships in the past is to be willing to be really independent with my mate when there are irresolvable challenges.  If old BFs had legal problems, I would NEVER have helped them, as it would be too stressful... .  but with DH, the cost of him failing to deal with stuff is just so great and so hugely impacts my life, that over and over again I have to assess, "am I willing to accept the consequences of not participating?"  So it is a real compromise to my usual MO, which is to be there emotionally,  but not to "save."  I also am not really attached to a lot of kinds of issues---for example DH has a business which provides most of our household income.  When the business has problems, I really see it as his thing; if it failed, I would be fine with that. If it succeed, that is good with me, too.  I am pretty accepting of big life changes, for the most part--moving, breaking up, injuries, etc. 

I also really hear that some of your "fascination" comes from love of the person you are with.  I think part of what I am wrestling with is the way that a step-parent's role in the family is invalidated--that I love the kids and care about their mom, and I naturally want to help.  A co-parenting counselor we were ordered to see recently told me that it is not possible for me to care about BPDmom if it is true that she treats me the way I explained she does.  For me, that is not true.  My experience is that I really love my SDs, and that I see how important their mom is to them.  I also see that compared to many BPDs on this board, our BPD is actually able to express and feel a lot of love for the girls, and that my life and their lives are made so much better by the fact that the girls feel loved.  I also think it is phenomenal that BPD mom could be so dysfunctional and yet still be loving and able to connect in some way in an emotional manner.  When I was first in the family, she was either totally crazy and threatening violence, or really loving and open with me.  I was deeply touched by that.  I think both were genuine.  I did not need her to be consistent.  Last week, she came over and hugged me at one of the kids' school events.  So I do feel caring, but incredibly wary, boundaried, hurt, and closed off, and also just okay with having distance because it is necessary. 

I also really love the kids, but society tells me that as a step-mom, the way this is supposed to manifest is by neutral distance.  Which may work if you see kids once a month for two days, but living with them half of the time for two weeks in a row means that part of my role is helping them through the struggles of life, and part of how I do that is by understanding the challenges their mom has and attempting to address the impacts to the kids.  Reading a lot is a huge tool for me in helping them along. 

At the same time, I am now 6 years in, and I am kind of done with being willing to be on the steep end of the learning curve.  I have worked out my rhythm with the girls, and it is mostly dealing with mom only very indirectly.  With BPD mom, I have also worked out what seems to work, which is mostly keeping my distance, and asking DH to have firm boundaries with her.  We are in the best time of the past 6 years in terms of mom being willing to follow boundaries, which means our home is low-drama most all the time.  But I think there is a certain amount of real sadness about having such an uncomfortable relationship with someone who is basically part of my family.  I get why it is necessary, but I do feel really sad about that.  There is something about her needing to feel that I hate her when I find her so possible not to hate that just seems a little tragic... .  such a waste.

But sometimes you lose.  One of my special abilities is to be able to open my heart to unlikely characters.  And in the first 3-4 years of knowing BPD mom, I could do that.  Now, I still care about her and still can see in a compassionate way that she is not only doing her best, but being pretty amazing given her life story.  I was taking care of my SD last week when she had a very high fever, on the day she was supposed to go to mom's.  And I was so grateful to be sending her to her mommy, who loves so much to take care of her when ill (illness is one of mom's favorite times). DH picked her up from home and took her to meet her mommy, and I felt enormous relief for both me AND SD8.  So I am not just hardened and cold toward BPD mom, but I just have no real avenue to have any of the positive feelings I have for her to be perceived by her, much less helpful to her.  I think that is the sadness.  That I have done this amazing thing by being able to have boundaries, support my DH to have boundaries, and still cultivate some caring in my heart, and that she cannot know or feel this fact.  That the fact that I feel that way is something she experiences as harmful, as a reason she cannot trust me and is even more scared of me and intimidated by me. And that what she does out of that feeling is to launch attacks at me, which I then have to deal with. 

[AnotherPhoenix]

  Hi,

I've been following this thread, and all of the positive ways that ennie relates and thinks about her H's ex. It is truly amazing. And what I've read throughout these boards about how other non step-moms treat their H's exes with BPD with compassion.

To me, that is the real tragedy of BPD. Many people with BPD are trying soo hard to do the right thing, love and be loved, but the disease only allows so much of this to come through, and some of what does gets twisted by the disease. And, so frequently, the disease doesn't allow the people who have it to truly feel and accept in their deepest self, the compassion, love, and all the other good feelings many people have for them. Thank goodness that the disease allows people with BPD to feel a semblance of this feeling some of the time.

AnotherPheonix