When they remember differently...

[Tigerabbit]

I've had very frequent and consistent problems with my DBF remembering things I've or others have said and/or done completely differently than what actually happened (or even just changing one word of what was said which entirely changes the meaning). Along the same lines is the complete misinterpretation of what was meant by what was said, and then disbelief at the clarification, or anger at "well why didn't you say it that way in the first place?"

The bigger of the two problems though for me is the first, as it feeds into his suspicions of me lying. Does anyone else experience this, and if so how do you deal with it? Thanks 

-Tigerabbit

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PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[cal644]

My stb exBPDw always remembers things differently or hears things differently.  The other day I had to take my daughter to practice because she was sick and it was her week with her.  She texted me thanks... .  I replied "anything for our daughter"... .  all hell broke loose ... .  she was of course anything for her you never would do anything for me ... .  you will never change.  I honestly meant I would do anything our daughter needed... .  it's scary how their minds work

[Tigerabbit]

Cal644 -

Your comment raises another question for me. Is it healthy, and if so to what extent, to think ahead about how we phrase things such as your example and how they might perceive them, or is that just avoidance and an enabling behavior? My instinct tells me there is a happy medium to this... .  we obviously don't want to blurt out just anything that comes to our minds, and with anyone it's wise to think about how we are phrasing things, but it brings to mind walking on eggshells if you're constantly worrying how they might take anything you say.

[cal644]

I can't tell you how many times innocent comments by me or someone else are taking as offesive.  I don't know if we can ever say the right thing 100% of the time.  She used to say I would never ask her how her day went (which was a lie) so then I would ask how did your day go - her responce "can't you just let me be" - you ask me questions all the time and don't give me time to breathe ... .  of course this is during the time I was painted black

[Tigerabbit]

Oh my gosh yes, I've experience that exact thing! They ask you to do something, and then when you comply and do what they've expressed they want it's wrong. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. I wonder if there is a solid explanation as to why they do that... .  so frustrating, and hurtful. It makes me feel completely inadequate, like nothing I do is ever good enough (and that has been blatantly expressed to me, as well).

[elemental]

Mine has a whole history of us where he remembers things differently.

Fortunately he is also very generous at forgiving my "wrongs" as long as I stop doing them. 

[waverider]

It is a normal part of the disorder. the thing is to accept this going to happen and let if pass,. If you rush in to challenge everying you will end up in endless escalating conflict.

This twisting of reality often leads to what is known as "gaslighting", this is when someone is so convincing in their version of the truth that you start to doubt your own. It is a form of brainwashing, and leaves you feeling very insecure. Result is you are always giving them the benefit of the doubt in situations where really there is no doubt.

[briefcase]

The distorted recollections are common.  Many members here keep a journal or diary to help us stay grounded in what really happened, what was said, etc. 

[nothinleft]

The similarities of BPD are absolutely amazing when you consider the differences in the personality and intelligence of the people who are affected. My BPDW is very intelligent and gifted in many ways. But under the grips of BPD (w/NPD traits) her facial expression is dull, her eyes have lost all twinkle and she is physically awkward and clumbsy. She regularly and totally misunderstands simple communication and many times comprehends exactly the opposite of what was said. And to exasperate further, she insists she is 100% correct. Her memory is very confused or not working at all. We have had a new phone# for 3 months now, and she doesn't have the faintest idea of what it is, even though she has called it or had to reference it many, many times. Sometimes she will call and ask what day it is. It has gotten to the point that I wonder if she is much more than BPD. We have had all sorts of physical and neurological testing and nothing. I am starting to think this is the onset of some sort of insanity. This is quite a journey, and it's sad.

[daylily]

My uBPDh can invent a completely different version of a conversation we had in the past to "prove" that I did something wrong or he didn't do something wrong.  He's adamant that his version is correct, saying that he should record our conversations so that he can play them back for me!  I often wish our lives were on DVR so we could just rewind and replay something that happened earlier, because it's so frustrating that these misunderstandings happen all the time.  But in reality, no matter what we do or say or don't do or say, it will be misconstrued.  No way around it.

  Daylily

[dawnjd]

I find that I don't even have to say anything for a new version of events to be invented. BPDso often tells me that I told him to do or not do something when I haven't even said anything at all. I think part of it is that he anticipates what he think I will say and then really thinks i said it. I have found that his compulsive lying leads him to have a completely different reality. He REALLY thinks things have happened, when they haven't. It gets real interesting when his mom is around, because I highly suspect that she is NPD and a compulsive liar as well. Oh Who to Believe?

[skwyz1]

I've discovered over the years that my BPDh remembers almost ALL experiences completely different than how they actually occured.  As an example when we were having a "discussion about issues", at his request, the other night and he was complaining about me trying to control him I told him verbatim "I realize that I do sometimes try to control you, and often it is because you have said incredibly hurtful things to me in the past when you're in a rage and you broke my heart, so I've learned to try to control you to avoid you hurting me".  He SWEARS what I really said verbatim was "you are a horrible, horrible monster and I have never loved you".

[tigerlily66]

My BPDh will bring something up out of the blue when he's angry, like "that thing you did when my father died really affected me", then he won't tell me what it is I did, nor do I have a clue! It's like little things he can "hold over my head" or something, I don't know. I used to let it really get to me and wrack my brain trying to figure out what I did, but now I just chalk it up to his distorted reality... .  sometimes I feel crazy!

[Grey Kitty]

The bigger of the two problems though for me is the first, as it feeds into his suspicions of me lying. Does anyone else experience this, and if so how do you deal with it? Thanks 

I think you have seen that yes, we all have experienced it! And it is crazy-making 

But what can you do about it?

First, don't invalidate. Don't JADE (justify, argue, defend, or explain) If you try to FIGHT his view of reality you make the situation worse.

Second, accept that his mind just does this to him.

Third, don't question your own sanity. Believe your reality, not his. (Keeping a journal helps.)

Finally, pick your battles and pick methods that will make things better. In many cases, making your life with him work for you won't actually require having him remember things correctly.

Getting a compromise with him on things that matter to you is plenty of work. Don't add to a difficult job by "correcting his memory" just because.

[Truth in Ruin]

Yes, mine did the same thing to me all the time. Making mountains out of ant hills. Changing your words around.

[momtara]

Yes.  Often what they 'heard' is darker than what was said.  Or they remember something THEY said in a much nicer way.  Mine also hears and sees things that didn't happen, only when in a dark mood.  Makes counseling difficult because they have an alternate explanation SO quickly, it almost seems like they are secretly geniuses of manipulation.

[bluebond6]

Without a doubt, my uBPDw will distort history in order to cover the consequences of her chaotic episodes.  When she becomes disregulated for whatever reason, she does not want to be held accountable for the outcome.  She might deny her actions that were plainly witnessed by someone else who reports them to me and then accuse them of lying.  Then she'll accuse me of being a bad husband for trusting a friend or acquaintance instead of my wife.  The consequences for chaotic behavior consequences can be broken friendships, financial distress, or legal problems. This behavior, I believe, is part of the disorder.  Alcohol and drug abuse amplifies the chaotic behavior which makes for more lies. It can be very frustrating, because if you confront the person head on about this behavior it gets you nowhere.  It can also make you question your own memory and your own sanity which is bad.  Perception has a subjective element to it, it's true, but when it comes down things like, ":)id she or did she not have sex with my neighbor?" that should be black and white.  Anyway, he says he did and she says she did not.  Super.

My approach to this issue:

Stay sober and keep a journal.  Remember that there are a lot of things that truly are subjective, so it is not OK to be on a high horse. Do take care to set and defend the boundaries you think are appropriate.

[arabella]

Yup, this happens all the time. Usually it's that he thinks I said/did something when the reality is that he accused me of saying/doing that thing. So, for example: he'll say "You're always telling me I'm stupid and that you should just leave me. Just last week you told me that." Reality: last week he was upset about something and HE said, "I feel stupid, I know you think I'm stupid, you should just leave me." ME: I do not think you're stupid, etc. Nope, apparently I keep telling him he's inadequate. Clearly more validation is required here. So frustrating.

[Themis]

I often wish I had a videocamera or tape recorder. Sadly I can relate to this too.

He has amnesia after certain things. Why are they like this?

Do they have real memory issues?

What is going on?

[DreamerGirl]

Yes, this happens to me a lot also.  He imagines I say things all the time.  Sometimes they are even nice things, so I happily take the credit for those ones, but the flipside is when his mind twists my words around and he thinks I was attacking him. 

He also reads so much into body language and facial expressions.  He can make a whole story up, about what a person is thinking about him, by how they look at him.  It's scary sometimes, because if I'm not smiling, then he gets worried. 

A little while ago, we were having a dinner party, and the next day he called one of my friends up, who was at the party.  He asked her, did she notice my teenage daughter "smirking" at him, during one of his conversations at the table.  She reassured him that my daughter was not smirking at him.  It was bizare behaviour, and he has never bought that up to me for whatever reason.

[Chosen]

This posts resonates so much with me.  I went through different phases, so I think it's worth sharing as it touches on so many previous posts:

Stage 1: Saying anything that pops up in my mind

- NOT GOOD.  But I didn't know he's uBPD.

- Says spiteful things to "get back" at him, which would probably anger "normal" people as well.

Stage 2: Eggshells

- Thinking, planning, practising what I'm going to say- constantly in fear

- No way to live, damanging to my spirit!

Stage 3: Learning about mindfulness

- The mid-way I guess; not so much reacting (or imagining his perceived response) but to think what do I want out of saying x?

- Weighing the pros and cons, and how to speak up when issues arise.

- Reminding myself not to nag (say something once, then drop it.  Don't say something more than once a day.)

I find this article helpful: TOOLS: Triggering, Mindfulness, and the Wise Mind

Finally, I have learnt that he may interpret my words and actions in any way which I may not agree with or it may not be rational, but I can't help it.  If such situations arise, I just tell him my original intention and drop it.  If he doesn't believe me there is nothing I can do.

[Grey Kitty]

Yup, it is frustrating. Incredibly.

HE said, "I feel stupid, I know you think I'm stupid, you should just leave me." ME: I do not think you're stupid, etc.

There is a better way to deal with it than that. You got caught up in wanting to be right. (I've been there. The easiest way to push my buttons is to tell me what I'm thinking and get it wrong!) So you said something that is invalidating.

Telling him that he's wrong when he says he's stupid doesn't help him.

Validation in this situation would be saying something more like "It must be terrible to feel like you are stupid" or "It must be awful to think that I want to leave you, etc."

Those responses show that you HEARD what he was saying and you understand him. (Not that his distorted messed-up view of the world is correct)

[Tigerabbit]

Well... .  I see that this is indeed a common thread among our beloved pwBPD! The most gut-wrenching thing that he remembers I said differently was during a break of ours after he had gone to another woman and then decided he wanted me back. I was so hurt and trying to move on from him at the time that I wanted nothing to do with him, and he came to me saying he was more suicidal than he had ever been. I said to him, and I remember it clearly, "that's not my fault." (I feel awful enough that I didn't take it seriously, but I was absolutely convinced that he was merely using it to manipulate me and felt very resentful to him for trying to control me after what I felt he had done to me). He SWEARS up one side and down the other that I said "it's not my problem." I know I didn't WOULDN'T say that, and yet he claims to have such a clear recollection of it that it has made me question my memory of it and myself as a moral person. And of course he gets angry when I deny it (I know better now). My heart hurts so much for him that he has to think and feel these things... .  the validation for that is absolutely true and genuine... .  how awful it must be for him to have that memory.

Thank you for sharing that article, Chosen. Very helpful!

[arabella]

Ah, but Grey Kitty, you'd be caught on that one as well! Because as soon as I pick up on the "It must be terrible to think you're stupid." I get: "I don't think I'm stupid - YOU think I'm stupid!" or "I dont THINK you're going to leave me - you SAID that!" It's the memory trick kicking in again. And if I don't tell him right away that I don't think he's stupid (or whatever it is) then, no matter what I DO say, I get "See you DO think I'm stupid, you didn't disagree with me!"    Crazy-making for sure! Thankfully these rants are generally few and far between. ugh. So far I've come up with gently correct, validate how he feels, suggest a compromise about our interpretations of the 'facts' ("I know you feel badly about x, it must be really hard to feel so down about x, I know sometimes I don't communicate very well and I'll try to do better so that you you don't end up being hurt by my careless ranting, please tell me if I say something upsetting so that I'll know right away.) Of course, trying to stay calm in the face of baseless accusations is a trick unto itself. I'm learning (slowly)!

[Grey Kitty]

Yup, validation is tricky stuff. If he's insisting that you said something or thought something you are probably best off aiming for the root fear.

My usual technique on that one was pretty blunt. "It isn't fair to tell me what I'm thinking." was on the polite side for me I guess I made a boundary of I won't discuss it with you when you are telling me what is in my mind. But I had to--this stunt would set me off pretty quickly.

There are people here who are waaaaaay better than I am at it. (fortunately!) If you are having real troubles, a "How do I validate X" thread here can be real productive and interesting.

Hmm... .  my wife isn't making me work as hard at validation anymore. I think I need to see if I can work on my father-in-law next. He has a talent for jumping to the wrong conclusion and insisting on applying it to me. I seem to have a talent for setting him off when I think he's being foolish. Since I don't want to set him off, I need a better way to communicate with him. Validation couldn't hurt here either:)

[ttaylor68]

I cannot tell you how relieving it was to read this post.  I have noticed that my fiancee with BPD remembers things differently AND out of order.  The idea of keeping a journal never occurred to me.  But my concern is what happens when I try to use it, or do I not use it?  I hate to say it but I can already hear the argument about how I must have written it down to make myself look better.  If nothing else it was a great relief to know that it's not just me or her and that others have/are experiencing it.

[MakeItHappen]

I can't tell you how many times innocent comments by me or someone else are taking as offesive.  I don't know if we can ever say the right thing 100% of the time.  She used to say I would never ask her how her day went (which was a lie) so then I would ask how did your day go - her responce "can't you just let me be" - you ask me questions all the time and don't give me time to breathe ... .  of course this is during the time I was painted black

oh cal, i feel your thoughts. SO many details are twisted to the point where i thought i was having a conversation with 2 different people at the same time.

[Grey Kitty]

I have noticed that my fiancee with BPD remembers things differently AND out of order.  The idea of keeping a journal never occurred to me.  But my concern is what happens when I try to use it, or do I not use it?

Take door #2 if you want to improve your situation.

Having a record for yourself, just so YOU can keep things straight in your head is really useful. (I thought I remembered a workshop in the lessons about gaslighting here, but I can't find it now. I did find a few threads about gaslighting.)

Using it to "prove" that your partner is making crap up / messing with your mind is just invalidating, and will make your relationship worse. And it probably won't work either.

If you are secure in your version of reality, you won't need to convince your partner. This is a good thing, because there ARE plenty of difficult and important things you do need to discus with them most of the time.

[laelle]

I agree with Grey Kitty,

your not likely to win that one, and if you call them on it with a book, it will only make it worse.

When there are two different version to a story, can tell him your version to which he will disagree.  Dont JADE here, you cant convince them they are wrong.  Its just not in their nature.  Validate yourself, you know its true.  I usually just tell my bf, ok... .  I can see how you see it that way.  His answer will be "because im right"  I just say uh huh or ok and drop it.

[rosannadanna]

One of the weirdest thing that happened in my relationship was one of the factors that led to our last break up.  He asked me if my text to him "Bring the drill when you come" was accidently sent to him and meant for someone else.  I NEVER SENT A TEXT SAYING THAT TO ANYONE!  I flat out refused to admit something I didn't do, but I nearly went crazy with his attempt to break me down.

I know this is not exactly what the thread is about, but can I get some feedback on how to handle this type of thing in case it ever happens again?

Thank you!