Beauty is in the eye of the beholder

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

I bolded the word "became" because that's how getting to know people - whether romantically or otherwise - goes.  We see people and judge them based on what we see.  Isn't the statistic something like, you make your impression of a person within 3 seconds of meeting them?  I could be wrong about that, but I seem to remember reading that somewhere.  Anyway, as we get to know a person, that's when they BECOME beautiful, ugly, friendly, fun, boring, etc.

Yes.  Then she became uglier but I was still stoned on the girl I fell in love with.  I couldn't let go of that image.  Even now 8 months later I have a hard time giving up on that. 

Absolutely no boundaries and NOT COOL!

You never should have had to ask her to stop.  It never should have been happening in the first place!

And there it is... .  the facade. Bleh.

I appreciate the validation.  It's been really hard for me to deal with this particular issues because I've never had to deal with it before in any relationship.  However, because this girl was the most attractive woman ever to me, I began  to think this formula:  as attractiveness increases, so does maintenance.  So I figured because I was more attracted to her in comparison to previous exes, that other males would be too, and thereby more competition.  That would mean that I'd be dealing with issues I hadn't before.  So, kind of like your guy that pmed you that he'd put up with all that stuff, I figured there'd be some degree of jealousy/alpha male deomstration required.  But, the dignity thing.  I couldn't let go of it no matter how I tried, no matter how "disgustingly jealous" she told me I was.  I just couldn't stand to watch it anymore.

Okay... .  this is a good point.  I don't like the word "dude" either.  .  Especially when women call each other "dude."  It just sounds ridiculous to me.

It's even weirder when a girl calls me "dude" -- or "buddy."  Ok, "buddy"'s just always weird to me.  Or fighting words.  Depends on the context. haha

It IS a good thing.  I just find it curious that the people who refer to their exes as "hot" are usually convinced that the rest of us just don't really get how "hot" she is.  Maybe that's what bugs.  I don't know... .  all I know is it sure bugs!  And... .  every time -- without fail -- that I've seen a picture of the supposedly "hot" girl, I am completely underwhelmed and end up thinking.  So... .  this is what this man is giving up his dignity for?

The problem for me would be that you saying ":)UDE she's not hot!" is it wouldn't matter because she is to me.  So, while your validation above helped me, it wouldn't probably if I sent you a pic and you said she's gross.  Plus, women have a different take on other women than men do.

I don't think this is distorted thinking at all.  I think it's odd for a person (male or female) to be building an entourage of suitors.  It's extremely disrespectful.  If a person feels they need to do that, then they shouldn't be in a relationship. And... .  I think it's odd for a person to build an entourage of suitors even when they aren't in a relationship. 

Thanks again.  I've struggled with this topic more than anything.  I came to believe that my disapproval/jealousy was uncalled for and that's why the relationship failed.  That's what she more or less told me.

BTW, this thread will be hot until it gets moved to the Senior Lounge like my "BPD and Culture" post. 

[struggli]

I bolded the word "became" because that's how getting to know people - whether romantically or otherwise - goes.  We see people and judge them based on what we see.  Isn't the statistic something like, you make your impression of a person within 3 seconds of meeting them?  I could be wrong about that, but I seem to remember reading that somewhere.  Anyway, as we get to know a person, that's when they BECOME beautiful, ugly, friendly, fun, boring, etc.

Yes.  Then she became uglier but I was still stoned on the girl I fell in love with.  I couldn't let go of that image.  Even now 8 months later I have a hard time giving up on that. 

Absolutely no boundaries and NOT COOL!

You never should have had to ask her to stop.  It never should have been happening in the first place!

And there it is... .  the facade. Bleh.

I appreciate the validation.  It's been really hard for me to deal with this particular issues because I've never had to deal with it before in any relationship.  However, because this girl was the most attractive woman ever to me, I began  to think this formula:  as attractiveness increases, so does maintenance.  So I figured because I was more attracted to her in comparison to previous exes, that other males would be too, and thereby more competition.  That would mean that I'd be dealing with issues I hadn't before.  So, kind of like your guy that pmed you that he'd put up with all that stuff, I figured there'd be some degree of jealousy/alpha male deomstration required.  But, the dignity thing.  I couldn't let go of it no matter how I tried, no matter how "disgustingly jealous" she told me I was.  I just couldn't stand to watch it anymore.

Okay... .  this is a good point.  I don't like the word "dude" either.  .  Especially when women call each other "dude."  It just sounds ridiculous to me.

It's even weirder when a girl calls me "dude" -- or "buddy."  Ok, "buddy"'s just always weird to me.  Or fighting words.  Depends on the context. haha

It IS a good thing.  I just find it curious that the people who refer to their exes as "hot" are usually convinced that the rest of us just don't really get how "hot" she is.  Maybe that's what bugs.  I don't know... .  all I know is it sure bugs!  And... .  every time -- without fail -- that I've seen a picture of the supposedly "hot" girl, I am completely underwhelmed and end up thinking.  So... .  this is what this man is giving up his dignity for?

The problem for me would be that you saying ":)UDE she's not hot!" is it wouldn't matter because she is to me.  So, while your validation above helped me, it wouldn't probably if I sent you a pic and you said she's gross.  Plus, women have a different take on other women than men do.

I don't think this is distorted thinking at all.  I think it's odd for a person (male or female) to be building an entourage of suitors.  It's extremely disrespectful.  If a person feels they need to do that, then they shouldn't be in a relationship. And... .  I think it's odd for a person to build an entourage of suitors even when they aren't in a relationship. 

Thanks again.  I've struggled with this topic more than anything.  I came to believe that my disapproval/jealousy was uncalled for and that's why the relationship failed.  That's what she more or less told me.

BTW, this thread will be hot until it gets moved to the Senior Lounge like my "BPD and Culture" post. 

[Scott44]

My ex-wife was probably average in physical appearance.  I have never, and will never, objectify a woman as "hot"... .  attractive is a much better word and allows for the whole person to be admired.  To me, a person who is good natured is more physically attractive than a nasty person who fits society's definition of "hot".  My ex wife became more attractive to me as she idealized me.  When she began to abuse and devalue me, she became less physically attractive to my eyes.  She once criticized my appearance (I was a fitness model at the time).  In return, I criticized her appearance. She cited this criticism in her divorce testimony.  Just another example of messed up dynamics.

[turtle]

That is what 'hotness' is about. Doesn't seem so 'hot', does it?

johnnyorganic.  I don't even know what to say to all that you've written here.  Thank you for sharing it.  And no... .  it doesn't seem "hot" at all.  It actually made the hair on the back of my neck stand up.

I am no longer heterosexual. I am unisexual. I am only attracted to one thing. And that one thing is a fantasy of a person who abused me, who took from me, who raged at me, who belittled me, who gaslighted me, who criticized me, who scared me. My sexuality is now no longer my own. It was taken for me. And I gave it up.

I know it seems like it now, but this isn't the end of your story.  There IS a life after these horrific relationships.  I am a perfect example of that!  So, don't lose heart or give up! 

turtle

[struggli]

johnnyorganic,

Thanks so much for sharing.  I think that is in many ways similar to what happened to me.  Although mine didn't follow me around like a puppy dog.  She figured out how to get me and a bunch of other guys to be the puppy dogs.

And yes she is a goddess still in my mind.  In 8 months I have made virtually zero attempt to pursue another woman.  She was the one that broke me for good.

[JonnyJon42]

I feel the same as stuggli i really dont feel like i can be with another women just dont feel i can go though the whole thing again and to be honest i have no want to really put the time in anymore

[turtle]

My ex-wife was probably average in physical appearance.  I have never, and will never, objectify a woman as "hot"... .  attractive is a much better word and allows for the whole person to be admired.   To me, a person who is good natured is more physically attractive than a nasty person who fits society's definition of "hot".  My ex wife became more attractive to me as she idealized me.  When she began to abuse and devalue me, she became less physically attractive to my eyes.  She once criticized my appearance (I was a fitness model at the time).  In return, I criticized her appearance. She cited this criticism in her divorce testimony.  Just another example of messed up dynamics.

Thank you for the bolded part.  I agree wholeheartedly!

As far as her citing that criticism in the divorce testimony... .  

And yes she is a goddess still in my mind.  In 8 months I have made virtually zero attempt to pursue another woman.   She was the one that broke me for good.  

Struggli --- try not to be discouraged by this.  You may feel broken for good right now, but you aren't. You have been through a very bad and destructive experience. Given that fact, 8 months just isn't that long.  If you shatter your leg, you don't expect to run a  marathon before that leg is fully healed, right?

That goes for you to JonnyJon42!  

[struggli]

Yeah, I'm not pressuring myself either.  I've been through enough breakups to know not to try to jump into anything else or be like my ex who is NEVER single to the best of my knowledge.

Plus, I'm working on myself now.

I just looked at pics of her I had hidden away.  My reaction wasn't as intense as I had expected, but I'm probably still not ready to look at them as they keep flashing in my mind's eye now.  She is pretty and has an amazing body, yes.  She even looks very loving in the pictures.

But I also saw one of her holding her phone which reminded me of the "other guys texting her all the time" thing.  Hell, she was probably texting her ex while I was taking pics of her.

[sunrising]

I'm 3.5 weeks in and I seem to bounce back and forth between feeling like I may never want another woman, emotionally or physically, (90% of the time) and occasionally wanting one TODAY (10% of the time).  My therapist has stressed to me that I need to hang out in groups and not put myself in 1-on-1 situations with an available woman right now.  I made the mistake, in one of my decent 1 minute periods during the 1st week after the break, of emailing a woman I had met while with my exwBPD who I got a good "vibe" from in a business environment and to whom I was initially attracted.  I asked her if she'd like to get together some time for a drink or food.  She replied that she would.  We exchanged a couple more messages and agreed the following week would be the plan.  That was 2.5 weeks ago.  I haven't contacted her since.  I know I jumped the gun by even asking her out.  On any given day, she'd be at risk for hearing me talk about my exwBPD for, oh, 5-10 hrs or howvwer long she would be willing to listen.  I'm gonna go out on a limb and assume that wouldn't be a great time for her.  Until I feel confident I can act more or less like myself (the guy before the BPD mess), I'm not going to expose anyone but close personal friends and family to what I am in an intimate setting.  

[struggli]

I'm 3.5 weeks in and I seem to bounce back and forth between feeling like I may never want another woman, emotionally or physically, (90% of the time) and occasionally wanting one TODAY (10% of the time).  My therapist has stressed to me that I need to hang out in groups and not put myself in 1-on-1 situations with an available woman right now.  I made the mistake, in one of my decent 1 minute periods during the 1st week after the break, of emailing a woman I had met while with my exwBPD who I got a good "vibe" from in a business environment and to whom I was initially attracted.  I asked her if she'd like to get together some time for a drink or food.  She replied that she would.  We exchanged a couple more messages and agreed the following week would be the plan.  That was 2.5 weeks ago.  I haven't contacted her since.  I know I jumped the gun by even asking her out.  On any given day, she'd be at risk for hearing me talk about my exwBPD for, oh, 5-10 hrs or howvwer long she would be willing to listen.  I'm gonna go out on a limb and assume that wouldn't be a great time for her.  Until I feel confident I can act more or less like myself (the guy before the BPD mess), I'm not going to expose anyone but close personal friends and family to what I am in an intimate setting.  

Good call. Same here.

[trevjim]

So females, what attracted you to your male BPD ?

[struggli]

So females, what attracted you to your male BPD ?

It wasn't cuz he was hot.  We know that now. 

[struggli]

rj, I wonder if you never got to see the hater side because you kept her at arm's length for so long.  I mean, if you had let her into your world completely like many of us do, she might have had you in more pain than you are in now.  It ended in the clinging phase for you.  For a lot of us, we got to see the hater phase.

[struggli]

I have come to think if I find a woman attractive, she has BPD because she has been socially groomed for it her whole life.  Anyone else think like that?  My T says that's distorted thinking.  He says I can find a woman beautiful who is sane and committed to me, etc.  I think he's delusional.  haha.

[turtle]

So females, what attracted you to your male BPD ?

Good question, trevjim!

It wasn't his physical characteristics.  Although I did think of him as attractive, in a benign sort of way, before I ever dated him.   

I am tall and I not usually attracted to men that are shorter than I am.  He was shorter than me by one inch and HE was soo bothered by that.

I am not usually attracted to men that are fair skinned and/or blonds.  He is both.

I am not usually attracted to men that are slight in build.  He was.

So... .  the physical part was off base for me.  I spent a lot of time asking myself why I was so attracted to him.  He's been gone for 11 years, so I've had plenty of time to think about it.  . 

He seemed genuinely interested in my opinions about things and he seemed to value my opinions. This was something I had not really experienced in my relationships with men.  Up until him, most of the men I had dated were primarily interested in my looks and seemed pretty uninterested in what I thought about anything.

We shared a passion for music (both professional musicians) that I hadn't ever had with another person.  This was a powerful tie for me.  We would write together often.

We shared a common belief system about God and talked about that a lot.  Again, this was not something I'd ever experienced before.It was also a powerful tie.

We also seemed to share a common belief system about family and what that meant to us.

He seemed to geniunely be interested in a simpler way of life and this was very attractive to me too.

Of course, in the end, like all of us here... .  he had simply mirrored me. None of these things were really true -- except the music part. That truly is a passion of his and now... .  after all of this time... .  I see that his passion for music isn't necessarily healthy. His true tastes (not my tastes mirrored back to me) in music are tortured -- and that is a constant whether he's just listening, playing, or writing. 

So... .  the main attraction (even though it wasn't real) was that I felt valued, cherished, protected.  That couldn't have been further from the truth.  The only thing I needed to be protected from was HIM!

turtle

[turtle]

My T says that's distorted thinking.  He says I can find a woman beautiful who is sane and committed to me, etc.  I think he's delusional.  haha.

I think you can absolutely find that, but you have to be in a healthy place within yourself first!

[turtle]

So females, what attracted you to your male BPD ?

It wasn't cuz he was hot.  We know that now. 

LMAO!

[MaybeSo]

There use to be noticeable difference in the way adolescents expressed themselves verbally, as compared to how an adult expressed themselves verbally.

Adolescents looked different than an adult in times gone by. They sounded different. They were not adults.

Adults looked and sounded different... .  They were not adolescents... .  

Today, the goal is arrested adolescence. Verbally, physically, emotionally... .  the goal is to maintain an adolescent style even when well into adult years.

Chic, Babe, Dude, this Is a young way of talking... .  it use to be how teens talked about other

teens. Somewhere in the last 30 years or so, adults adopted this verbal style, and now it's

ubiquitous... .  all ages have this young, brash verbal style.

I went to a wedding in Chicago given by a bunch of 40 to 50 folk, my age. The reception

had the exact same hip hop music playing that I saw at my  18 year old daughters high

school dances. The music, the dance moves... .  all of it mimicked what is currently popular

with a hip 18-20 crowd.  That would have been unheard of 30-50 years ago. Adulthood was

actually coveted, adolescence was not coveted or mimicked by adults.  It's made a complete

flip; eternal adolescence is the desired norm... .  adulthood and an adult style of interaction

doesn't even seem to exist.

As far as obsession with sex... Addiction is addiction is addiction. It could be alcohol, pot,

cocain, heroin, meth... .  or sex... .  the problem isn't the delivery system. The syringe isn't

responsible for the addicts obsession with heroin. The heroin isn't responsible for the a

persons addiction, either.  The addict has a hole, the heroin (or sex, or fantasy, or

idealization) fills the painful empty hole temporarily, but the hole was always there and can

only really be filled (healed) by the addict himself.

What attracted me to my ex with BPD (w/NPD traits) traits... He has no hair, in no model, but takes

care of himself and likes motorcycles and gardening and so do i, He is a thinking

person,interested in life and he is a complex person, he can be so fun and very interesting

to talk with. He still is, and he contributes much to the world. When I was at my

unhealthiest with him, I was tapping into some painful childhood stuff that his style of

relating stirred up in me; at it's worst it was very, very painful... .  he seemed at times almost monsterous to me. But he was touching a wound that was always there, he didn't create it (read 2010 posts). He just a man, he's no saint, and he's no monster, either. He can't save me... .  It's not his job to heal me, save me, or make me feel complete, happy or whole or worthy.  That's MY responsibility... not his.

[turtle]

Today, the goal is arrested adolescence. Verbally, physically, emotionally... .  the goal is to maintain an adolescent style even when well into adult years.

Chic, Babe, Dude, this Is a young way of talking... .  it use to be how teens talked about other teens. Somewhere in the last 30 years or so, adults adopted this verbal style, and now it's ubiquitous... .  all ages have this young, brash verbal style.

This is so true.  And, I have to say, I've participated in it.  Being in the fashion industry and the music industry (on a very limited basis now,) seems to perpetuate this idea and now... .  that I'm so much older and wiser () it's VERY unappealing to me.

When I was at my unhealthiest with him, I was tapping into some painful childhood stuff that his style of relating stirred up in me; at it's worst it was very, very painful... .  he seemed at times almost monsterous to me. But he was touching a wound that was always there, he didn't create it

He can't save me... .  It's not his job to heal me, save me, or make me feel complete, happy or whole or worthy.  That's MY responsibility... not his.

Yep.  I can relate to ALL of this!

And... .  as much as I would never want to repeat that experience with him, because of my involvement with him, I was forced to deal with some pretty significant childhood stuff too!  So... .  good DOES come out of bad.  Without him -- or someone like him -- I might not have dealt with my own crap!  He was a powerful catalyst.

turtle

[TheDude]

Chic, Babe, Dude, this Is a young way of talking... .  

Huh. Maybe so... .  Jeff Bridges is 14 years older than I am! 

[struggli]

There use to be noticeable difference in the way adolescents expressed themselves verbally, as compared to how an adult expressed themselves verbally.

Adolescents looked different than an adult in times gone by. They sounded different. They were not adults.

Adults looked and sounded different... .  They were not adolescents... .  

Today, the goal is arrested adolescence. Verbally, physically, emotionally... .  the goal is to maintain an adolescent style even when well into adult years.

Chic, Babe, Dude, this Is a young way of talking... .  it use to be how teens talked about other teens. Somewhere in the last 30 years or so, adults adopted this verbal style, and now it's ubiquitous... .  all ages have this young, brash verbal style.

I went to a wedding in Chicago given by a bunch of 40 to 50 folk, my age. The reception had the exact same hip hop music playing that I saw at my  18 year old daughters high school dances. The music, the dance moves... .  all of it mimicked what is currently popular with a hip 18-20 crowd.  That would have been unheard of 30-50 years ago. Adulthood was actually coveted, adolescence was not coveted or mimicked by adults.  It's made a complete

flip; eternal adolescence is the desired norm... .  adulthood and an adult style of interaction doesn't even seem to exist.

As far as obsession with sex... Addiction is addiction is addiction. It could be alcohol, pot, cocain, heroin, meth... .  or sex... .  the problem isn't the delivery system. The syringe isn't responsible for the addicts obsession with heroin. The heroin isn't responsible for the a persons addiction, either.  The addict has a hole, the heroin (or sex, or fantasy, or idealization) fills the painful empty hole temporarily, but the hole was always there and can

only really be filled (healed) by the addict himself.

What attracted to my ex with bps/NPD traits... He is a thinking person, interested in life and he is a complex person, he can be fun and very interesting. He still is, and he contributes much to the world. When I was at my unhealthiest with him, I was tapping into some painful childhood stuff that his style of relating stirred up in me; at it's worst it was very, very painful... .  he seemed at times almost monsterous to me. But he was touching a wound that was always there, he didn't create it (read 2010 posts). He just a man, he's no saint, and he's no monster, either. He can't save me... .  It's not his job to heal me, save me, or make me feel complete, happy or whole or worthy.  That's MY responsibility... not his.

As for the societal thing, it seems to be a sea change, a tidal wave that cannot be stopped.  Our loyalties to our employers (our supply of money) and the pursuit of fun have overridden our other connections to people.

And I agree about the addiction thing.  Most of us were addicted to our exes in one way or another because we didn't leave when they began to hurt us.  Hurting of course happens in every relationship to some degree.  We all hurt each other from time to time.  But our relationships we talk about on here, in some cases, were equivalent to the meth user who lets his teeth start falling out and still wants more.  

[MaybeSo]

I love The Dude and i love jeff bridges in it.

The Dude Is the epitome of eternal adolescence, the good natured, perpetually stoned, under-employed male with no family responsibilities... .  the drifter.

It's neither bad or good... .  but it's a young archetype. It's not an adult archetype.

[waitaminute]

"hot" women and BPD... .  

I've wondered about a cause and effect. My BPDex told me several times that her problem is that she is too beautiful and that men always want to have sex with her. I do not know at what age this perception started.

So I wondered if it is possible that a very attractive female (for whatever reason... .  physical beauty, charisma, pheromones, availability, etc) is prey to men that use and discard women... .  especially emotionally childish women that are common among BPD. That sort of thing could reinforce a fear of abandonment and self loathing.

These are just the thoughts of my engineering brain trying to build an understanding of a mind that I observed only from the outside looking in. It is not a theory, explanation, or anything that I've read. Just sharing my thoughts.

[MaybeSo]

Waitaminute, I think you are onto something.

Being an attractive female ... .  and a person who pays close attention and studies human behavior, I can give you what I see as a common profile. I can't say I've moved into the arena I'm sharing, but I have felt at times in my life if I wasn't a healthier, more resilient person... .  I could go where I've seen a lot of women go.

What bothers me so much about the way men talk about women is the fact that men seem to be confusing sexuality or a willingness or comfort with extremely provocative sexual behavior with being a real or healthy woman, passionate, alive... .  healthy.

From my study and observations, extreme sexual acting out in women is not a sign of health

in women. The very extreme behaviors that men feel are seductive and succumb to, are

clear warning signs that something is likely very wrong with this woman.

Women ARE sexual and do enjoy sex, we are passionate and we can be adventuresome

sexually.

But a healthy woman is not totally focused on sex and sexuality or being a sex object. Sex

is the spice of life, not the main course. A healthy woman is going to be careful about who

she gets naked with, for obvious physical and mental health reasons. A young woman may

talk a good game but studies show women in their 30s and 40s really come into their own

sexually...  Younger woman may have more partners and be more overtly sexual but report

actually enjoying sex less than more mature women.

A young woman who is strongly playing up the sex card, or is frankly overly invested in

providing her new catch with mind blowing porn star sex, who is sharing tales of childhood

victimization, abuse, rape, molest... .  is announcing about as loud as a person can " I'm a sick

puppy". This woman is NOT healthy. She  has baggage, my friends, baggage too awful for

words alone. Over and over it's this combination of injured sex kitten that the men on this

site fall for and then angrily vilify after she flips out. Sexual acting out by a young woman

should be seen as a neon sign... "I'm messed up and I'm acting out how messed up I am in

the way I was originally wounded, via sex and intimacy with men." She is wounded... .  she is

likely stuck at the age where she was wounded emotionally.

What message do young women, regardless of any frank abuse or trauma get today from

TV, magazines, Internet and pretty much everywhere?

Be hot. Be sexy. Compete for male attention. Only hot women deserve love and sex and

attention and a chance at connection with men. If you don't do what the girls do in pornos,

then move aside cause there's a million girls desperately looking for male love and attention

who WILL provide porn star sex. If you don't compete on this playing field,  don't expect to

ever get or maintain a man's attention. Be hot, beautiful, sexy... .  Put it all out there, or loose

him.

So, take a young immature woman... .  who buys into this. Daddy was never around so she

already feels not good enough and rejected by the one man who was suppose to love her unconditionally (all too common scenario). She has an abandonment wound straight out of

the gate. She buys into the overwhelming message that you must compete and perform for

male love. So she does. She does it all. Learns the moves, learns to be any man's

dream... .  she's crazy hot, she provides porn star sex. Men make the mistake of thinking that providing porn star sex makes her happy and fulfilled.

But that's not what makes her happy... Under it all you still just have a very wounded,

angry, little girl dressed up and acting line what society tells her she must act like to have

male attention. And the bargain is this... .  if I just do this well enough, he will love me

unconditionally... .  and I wont have to perform anymore. I will finally be loved for myself.

But... .  no, it doesn't work out that way, the man (with his own childhood wounds) feels

entitled to have the performance to go on and on, her performance makes him feel better

and fills his emptiness, and he resents that after she "hooks" him, the porn star sex

stops... .  she resents that she has exposed herself and performed like a pro and still hasn't

earned a man's unconditional regard... .  and she still feels self loathing from her original

abandonment and subsequent repeated attempts to be loved.

Two wounded kids dressed up like adults, who know how to f@@@ like grown ups, but neither relating as grown ups or taking care of their own wounds.  Instead it's "fill me, be my fantasy, make it all better for me."

Two wounded kids.

All these men just play out the abandonment drama over and over and over again.

[va12]

I think that "hot" is the modern way to describe "intense attraction" both emotionally and physically. Just a slang word. That person is "hot" to me, because i'm so in to them, but they can look like 5  on the scale from 1 to 10 to the rest of the world.

[turtle]

Maybeso--

I appreciated your whole post... .  and like you... .  if I had taken a few different turns in my lifetime, I can see where I would have headed down the very unattractive road that you described here.

What bothers me so much about the way men talk about women is the fact that men seem to be confusing sexuality or a willingness or comfort with extremely provocative sexual behavior with being a real or healthy woman, passionate, alive... .  healthy.

And this is really at the very heart of why I started this topic.  And I suppose it's why the term "hot" bothers me.  It just feels soo disrespectful in light of what you have written here.

I'm still dissecting all that you wrote.  I hope everyone reads what you wrote here. It's a powerful and very insighful post, maybeso.  Thank you for that.  

[struggli]

maybeso,

that just about explains my whole story with my ex.  I thought it was fun, love, and sexual compatibilty rolled all into one.  But later she came to say she hated sex and that it wasnt a component of a relationship.  I was shocked.  Now my rescuer instinct is all fired up again and i want to send your post to her.  I love her and i thought we were sharing intimacy.  Silly fool.,

[maria1]

This is a great thread. I think of 'hot' as to do with sex. It means more than attractive, it means HOT. Hot means sexually hot however we try and spin it.

You could describe a child as 'pretty' attractive' 'beautiful'. You would never describe a child as hot because it means concerning sex. And I believe it is to do with the way pornography has become so deeply entrenched in our culture's approach to sex, young women and young men are growing up with distorted messages about what is healthy and what is expected. Our young people are becoming damaged, BPD or not.

What message do young women, regardless of any frank abuse or trauma get today from

TV, magazines, Internet and pretty much everywhere?

Be hot. Be sexy. Compete for male attention. Only hot women deserve love and sex and

attention and a chance at connection with men. If you don't do what the girls do in pornos,

then move aside cause there's a million girls desperately looking for male love and attention

who WILL provide porn star sex. If you don't compete on this playing field,  don't expect to

ever get or maintain a man's attention. Be hot, beautiful, sexy... .  Put it all out there, or loose

him.

Absolutely- it's terrifying.

I have posted before about wanting my partner to find me sexually attractive but feeling torn when he does. I'm 46 but as a woman I still find the whole madonna or whore stuff confusing. Because it still exists in society so strongly.

What attracted me to my BPDex was he found me sexually attractive but he found me attractive in all the other ways I needed him to. He liked to listen to me and he liked to look at me AND I found him very beautiful to look at, still do. I could have listened to him talk all night and he fascinated me. The sex wasn't porn star sex. I felt like we were showing each other love, making love. I've not had any of that so strongly with anyone before. We were sharing intimacy and it was always too much for him. He even said that he always had to get up and move afterwards because he felt 'claustrophobic'.

As I understood the disorder- sleeping with him would have felt like sleeping with a child. That saved me. Lately I look at him and see a creep.

[myself]

"Living is easy with eyes closed, misunderstanding all you see." That's something John Lennon wrote many years ago. Sometimes people can get it wrong with their eyes wide open, too. 'Hot' is like wearing horny 'Rose Colored Glasses' when you're mostly dealing with what's on the surface of someone. It's used as if the person (seen or seeing) has hit some kind of jackpot. The best heat seems deeper. Beauty IS in the eye of the beholder. That doesn't always mean the eyes are working all that well. With BPD involved, appearances can be quite deceiving. Being close with someone can trigger it off, so, if you're not really close enough, how can you be sure about what you're seeing (what the actual 'temperature' is)? Also: Many people end up together due to desperation more than how they looked.

[MaybeSo]

Struggli, She probably thought she was sharing intimacy, too... .  using the only currency she felt she had... .  

I can't stress enough (IMHO) that BOTH men and women are operating with young (foolish if you wish, maybe naive?) assumptions and expectations about what a partner can reasonably provide. I don't see either the man or the woman as plotting evil intent... .  but both are missing the mark.

On another note, that I find confusing... .  isn't it paradoxical to desire the hot, skilled, porn star sex female... .  but then be shocked and surprised to find that a very sexually aggressive  woman with you... Is also very highly provocative with others? Is it realistic to expect a near professional level of sexual prowress to be directed at you and only you alone? Is part of the fantasy include magical thinking that this perfect sexual goddess is a whore only with you? Also, I constantly  read these two conflicting messages from males:

"I didnt know what happiness was UNTIL I had this intense sexual relationship with my porn star rockin hawt ex BPDgf, no one else has ever made me feel THAT good. I never wanted to really be with anyone else, healthy women are boring, I never wanted to really commit to any of my normal past gf's... .  but my crazy rockin hawt BPD ex... .  I'd do anything for her! Then she flirted with other men and dumped me, what a whore. Gosh, what's with all the psycho sluts out there these days?... .  seems  like there's a lot of them... .  seems like there's a lot of borderline women out there... .  gee... .  I wonder why that is?"

Huh?

Maria, you make a very good point. Hot is not just a word for attractive, it is specific to sexual attractiveness... .  You would not call a pretty little girl "hot".

[WorkingOnIt505]

Turtle there is also something to be said for validation and communication within a culture. When I say my BPD girlfriend is hot I do so for two reasons. 1. Because it is a form of validation in making her feel "attractive" though the language changes i.e. sexy, beautiful, gorgeous. 2. For me, in casual context, it can associate other qualities and also be a way to talk about the blinding effect of BPD infatuation.

For instance, man she was so HOT that I didn't see this craziness coming. Meaning something more like, she had all these qualities that made her attractive because obviously being hot in of itself can mean someone is bat___. It's a simple way to bond with others through common language. What guy hasn't been super attracted to a girl and then been blindsided by BPD (obviously almost every guy on this board has ). But sometimes you don't want to say that. After a long day of fighting and having to over-explain yourself to your partner or expartner you just wanna say, "she was so hot... .  how could she have been crazy?" Much easier than a wall of text describing all the innerworkings of being blinded and dealing with the drama.