Reality Check: Was this abuse?

[Beware of Junk Psychology...]

Was this my fault? Was this abuse? Did I do this because I didn't commit to her?


She would consistently rage at me in the middle of the night. It got to the point where I would have anxiety every single night because I would never know when she was going to rage at me. She would rage at me for waking her up for me rolling over. She kept telling me I moved too much when I slept. She would usually wake me up and say "Why did you wake me up?". And she would then start to rage at me. Sometimes she would get up and take her blankets to sleep on the couch and slam the door and then come back and yell at me more and then slam the door and then come back to yell at me some more.

She would rage at me whenever I had an opinion about something that she didn't like. Usually, these opinions had to do with nothing important... .  my thoughts on a movie, for example. This happened many, many times. She would rage and cry and scream at me.

She would rage at me if I expressed my fears about something that she perceived as a threat. I was supposed to move cities to be with her and when she asked me how I felt about it, I would usually say that I was excited but scared because I didn't have any friends or job there. She would then just rage at me and say things like: "You are being     ing rude".

The one time I brought up the fact that she has a lot of conflict in her family, she raged at me and then, when I was getting upset, she told me to "use my big boy voice".

She raged at me for not locking up a bike quick enough because we were late to meet her friends (we were late because of her).

She raged at me all the time for my 'tone'. I started to get really exacerbated with her behavior. And that would be expressed in a tone of voice that was frustrated. When she would start to get upset with me, I would usually say: "What are you talking about?". And my tone would be on of exacerbation. She would then start raging at me about it, about how I could ever talk to her that way.

Before I left, she started calling me an '___hole' pretty regularly. She would just launch into a rage and say that I was being a '    ing ___Hole'. The things I would do to 'deserve' that would be things like having to go to the bathroom, not sitting beside her when she asked me to.

She would always tell me that I hated her.

She once raged at me for thinking that she was just a 'crazy     ing b*tch'. This was an escalation of her thinking I hated her. I never thought that. I didn't know where that was coming from.

She would always tell me: 'Why can't you just be nice to me' or 'Are you going to be nice to me?'. I never understood what she was talking about. I'm a really nice guy and I was never 'not nice' to her. But she would always tell me that. For a year at least. And I would keep trying to tell her that when she said that it made me feel bad because it implied that I wasn't nice, which was hurtful.

She would always send me these page long emails about all the things I had done wrong.

She would rage at me for the weirdest things, for having my underwear on the floor, for not wanting to take my bike on the metro, for not being able to download a texting app properly, for petting a dog instead of hugging her in the morning.

She would rage at me for not hiring her (I had a business and she was unemployed at the time... .  well, not unemployed... .  she was working on her dissertation for 16 hours a day for 2 years and had run out of funding. She wanted me to hire her so she could finish her dissertation. I thought that would be a bad business and relationship decision).

She would rage at me if I wasn't paying attention to her.

[willy45]

Was this my fault? Was this abuse? Did I do this because I didn't commit to her?


She would consistently rage at me in the middle of the night. It got to the point where I would have anxiety every single night because I would never know when she was going to rage at me. She would rage at me for waking her up for me rolling over. She kept telling me I moved too much when I slept. She would usually wake me up and say "Why did you wake me up?". And she would then start to rage at me. Sometimes she would get up and take her blankets to sleep on the couch and slam the door and then come back and yell at me more and then slam the door and then come back to yell at me some more.

She would rage at me whenever I had an opinion about something that she didn't like. Usually, these opinions had to do with nothing important... .  my thoughts on a movie, for example. This happened many, many times. She would rage and cry and scream at me.

She would rage at me if I expressed my fears about something that she perceived as a threat. I was supposed to move cities to be with her and when she asked me how I felt about it, I would usually say that I was excited but scared because I didn't have any friends or job there. She would then just rage at me and say things like: "You are being     ing rude".

The one time I brought up the fact that she has a lot of conflict in her family, she raged at me and then, when I was getting upset, she told me to "use my big boy voice".

She raged at me for not locking up a bike quick enough because we were late to meet her friends (we were late because of her).

She raged at me all the time for my 'tone'. I started to get really exacerbated with her behavior. And that would be expressed in a tone of voice that was frustrated. When she would start to get upset with me, I would usually say: "What are you talking about?". And my tone would be on of exacerbation. She would then start raging at me about it, about how I could ever talk to her that way.

Before I left, she started calling me an '___hole' pretty regularly. She would just launch into a rage and say that I was being a '    ing ___Hole'. The things I would do to 'deserve' that would be things like having to go to the bathroom, not sitting beside her when she asked me to.

She would always tell me that I hated her.

She once raged at me for thinking that she was just a 'crazy     ing b*tch'. This was an escalation of her thinking I hated her. I never thought that. I didn't know where that was coming from.

She would always tell me: 'Why can't you just be nice to me' or 'Are you going to be nice to me?'. I never understood what she was talking about. I'm a really nice guy and I was never 'not nice' to her. But she would always tell me that. For a year at least. And I would keep trying to tell her that when she said that it made me feel bad because it implied that I wasn't nice, which was hurtful.

She would always send me these page long emails about all the things I had done wrong.

She would rage at me for the weirdest things, for having my underwear on the floor, for not wanting to take my bike on the metro, for not being able to download a texting app properly, for petting a dog instead of hugging her in the morning.

She would rage at me for not hiring her (I had a business and she was unemployed at the time... .  well, not unemployed... .  she was working on her dissertation for 16 hours a day for 2 years and had run out of funding. She wanted me to hire her so she could finish her dissertation. I thought that would be a bad business and relationship decision).

She would rage at me if I wasn't paying attention to her.

[FogLightsOn]

Hi johnnyorganic,

I read through your list of episodes and my original response was “This is a rhetorical question, right?  Of course this is abuse!”

But then I thought about my own experiences with my uBPDw … she has done the same kinds of things to me over the last 17 years.  I used to (not anymore because it was pointless) tell her that what she was doing was abusive, and she would argue that it wasn't.  She would say that she has the right to express herself.

Well, in my opinion there are ways of expressing yourself  without: 1) raging; and 2) causing the other person to be sleep deprived and anxious.  To me, this alone is sufficient to answer your question: yes, this is abuse.

But even putting aside the method of delivery of her communication, I think there's another question: Is it abusive to keep making baseless accusations about someone?  I think that, from the point of view of the recipient of these communications, the answer is “yes”.  I know that after hearing the same charges thrown at me over and over again, I began to doubt myself.  Was I really as mean and nasty as she said I was?  Did I really suffer from horrible anxiety disorders and need to be on medication, as she kept telling me over and over?  My own experience said “no”, but still, why would she keep saying this if it weren't true?  I resolved this for myself by running her accusations past others who knew me well and who I could count on to tell me the truth: longtime friends as well as my own therapist.  In every single instance, they reassured me that I was not the person that she kept accusing me of being.  My therapists assured me that I did not suffer from the personality disorders and neuroses that she accused me of and “no”, I did not need to be medicated.

I think we experience this aspect as abusive because of the “gaslighting” affect: you arrange someone's environment in such a way so as to make them think that they've gone crazy.  (If you've never seen the classic movie “Gaslight”, you really should.)

But I also think it's important to remember that from the pwBPD's point of view, their accusations are not abusive because they think they are telling you the truth.  That's why I gave up telling my uBPDw that she was abusing me – she could never believe it, and thought that I was just being deliberately mean to her by telling her such a thing.

Bottom line:  If you are really wondering whether the things you described are abusive, then pretend that someone else wrote your post and read it to yourself.  How would you answer this “other person's” question?

Good luck.

FogLightsOn

[waitaminute]

Rjh45,

I think a lot of the rage is projection.

[willy45]

Hey Foglightson,

Thank you so much. You are right. It is so hard to see when you are in it because you are constantly blamed for it. To stay in the relationship for so long, you have to accept that version of reality, you have to accept that it isn't abuse, it is love.

Now that i am out of it, I find it really hard to hold onto the fact that it was abusive. I have a hard time owning it. My brain falls into the default mode of taking the blame for it, ignoring my self, ignoring my own experiences.

I think I am trying to tell things here and get feedback because one of the hardest things is that I suffered through this on my own. There was no else there to witness it. There were no bruises. There were not cuts. And my ex would certainly never, ever, ever acknowledge what she was doing was abusive. It was always my fault. There were always reasons that had to do with me. Sometimes I wish I had been hit, that there were physical scars as a reminder.

Please, if other truly believe that this was abusive, please tell me so. I need to hear it from others. I need to validate that this was abuse. Maybe that makes me needy. But right now, I am having a really hard seeing through all this.

Thank you all very, very much. Sorry if I keep popping up like this to ask. Telling the stories and hearing feedback is super helpful.

[FogLightsOn]

Hi johnnyorganic,

I'm glad you found my post helpful.  I know exactly what you mean when you say you sometimes wish there had been physical scars so that others would readly know that you had been abused.  I feel so isolated when this happens in my home.  That's when I find these boards especially helpful ... .  just to be able to reach out to people who have been through what you're going through.

Hang in there,

FLO

[jp77]

Please, if other truly believe that this was abusive, please tell me so. I need to hear it from others. I need to validate that this was abuse. Maybe that makes me needy. But right now, I am having a really hard seeing through all this.

Yes, it was emotional abuse. I understand your need to hear that, and it doesn't make you needy. It's because you were subjected to extreme levels of emotional pain, and right now it sounds like you can use an excuse to take care of yourself instead of her.

But people with BPD are in pain too. So she very likely will not be able to perceive her own actions as abusive, because of her condition. I think you need to take a step back to figure out what's best for you, not what's best for her, as hard as that might be.

At the beginning stages of my breakup, I also felt the need for someone to validate that I was emotionally abused. She called me a "f***ng liberal," a "g*ddamn neurotic" because of my stomach illness, when she slept over she complained that I was grinding my teeth at night and made it hard for her to sleep. In retrospect, I believe the teeth grinding and stomach issues were probably due to the intense stress I was experiencing because of the relationship. She told me I was crazy. Etc. etc.

Emotional abuse is very difficult to pin down. But it's definitely real.

It sounds to me like you're at the very beginning of the healing process, and you need to give yourself permission to grieve the pain of the experiences you've gone through, and allow yourself the space to heal.

Good luck.

[LuckyEscapee]

Absolutely abuse.

Absolutely unacceptable too.

Take care of yourself 

[willy45]

Thanks all. Each and every post is helping. Each post makes me cry. But maybe I need that? Any other confirmations are greatly appreciated.

[Bulgakov]

I agree that what you listed was abuse. I have been through many of these things and still am going through them. I have hard time taking the treatment as seriously as I should. I feel a lot of confusion about it. It sounds like you do too. I think that is natural. Sometimes I wonder at what point I will wake up and realize I don't need to live in a harmful environment. I think that would mean leaving or building up stronger boundaries. Something I also have a hard time with.

[GustheDog]

She would rage at me for the weirdest things, for having my underwear on the floor, for not wanting to take my bike on the metro, for not being able to download a texting app properly, for petting a dog instead of hugging her in the morning.

First, totally abuse.  Your ex actually raged at/criticized you for many of the same things as my ex (esp. the being 5 minutes late, being an ___hole, my "tone," the "way I talk to her," how I never "treated her well," etc.).

Also, this is the THIRD time on these boards that I've seen an account of getting raged at for not wanting to take a bike on the metro!  This happened to me, too!

[Iced]

I spent months being raged at for reasons that - under any other normal circumstances with people who are not dealing with disordered attachment issues to the degree that my friend was - made no sense to me in any logical way.

One of the reasons that stand out most to me in my mind is the one where I got raged at... .  for someone ELSE'S refusal and/or inability to communicate with them in the way that was desired.  This other person had lied to them and lied to them (fwBPD's opinion)... .  but because they were unhealthily attached to them like an octopus (and were inadvertently being encouraged to do so) and because I was setting boundaries and asserting them, -I- ended up getting the full bulk of all the rage head-on and face-first.

... .  And it continued.  My boundaries - weakened by my own declining health at the time - broke and I simply... .  took it all in and by the time I finally managed to take the final step and initiate NC, I was so broken and confused and in one hell of a hot mess that I literally landed myself in the hospital for several days because I suffered a relapse in a previously managed condition and needed hospitalization to get it fixed.

If I managed to have doubts about 'abuse' after all I had been through, seeing myself in the hospital bed with tubes going everywhere was more than enough to shock myself back into reality - the reality that my former friend was very very much psychologically struggling and that they had lashed out and taken out everything on me (the raging) and I had simply taken it all in, inch for inch, pound for pound to the point of collapse.

I long since forgave them; even in my hospital bed, I sincerely forgave them, but I also realized that though I could forgive them - having a disorder is nobody's fault - I could not forget and simply brush aside the fact that I had been used as a punching bag.

Though not at fault for having a disorder, help was and is available to them and they had refused (and continue to refuse) and thus refused the path to self-awareness and accountability and so in that regard, the onus was on them and so me taking my leave and going NC was the consequence of their behavior.

I didn't deserve that treatment and I never will.  Just like you and others didn't deserve that treatment and never will.

Maybe you didn't end up hospitalized, but abuse is abuse and yes, you HAVE experienced abusive rage attacks that were not yours to bear.

[GreenMango]

johnnyorganic

She sounds really unstable.  Raging, name calling, waking you up to scream at you, yelling at you for a difference of opinion, belittling because you cant read her mind, degrading comments when you don't do what she tells you all sound abusive to me if this was hurting you.  None of what she was doing is what people would call normal or healthy.

We could talk about the why's behind behavior like this and the abuse cycle, but honestly nobody deserves to be abused.  I'm sorry this happened.  

Grieving the relationship is okay too.  Give yourself some time to sort through the feelings.

[willy45]

Thanks everyone.

I'm not sure why I am so stuck on this. I'm certainly over trying to deal with the 'why' issue in terms of why she did this. I don't care anymore. Now I'm dealing with the 'what' issue. What was that and how did it impact me. Was it really my fault? Did that really happen? Was it as destructive to me as it feels?

I guess I stayed in the fire for so long, I figured that once I got out that I wouldn't have been burned. I'm realizing now that this was ridiculous. I didn't know the depths to which she was hurting me. I didn't realize the depth of the horrible ways she destroyed my self-worth. I just thought I would call it quits, get the h*ll out, and that would be that.

I was wrong. I need to put a label on this. That helps me. It helps me come to terms that it wasn't my fault, that I'm not to blame. All I am doing right now is beating myself up inside, tearing myself to shreds. I am fighting but the voice that tells me that I was wrong (her voice) is continuing to pummel me day and night.

Thank you all for your support right now. Each and every message has helped me make it through the last couple of days.

[willy45]

Does anyone know what the long-term impacts of this kind of abuse are? And if there are any tools out there for people to deal these long-term impacts?

I still oscillate back and forth between thinking it is my fault, that I should have been more committed, that I could have done something about it, or that I can still do something about, that I should have just withstood it and taken it. Or, I still think she has seen the light and everything will make sense and that we can be together and this pain will go away. It is madness.

I wish I could hold onto the anger. I can't seem to do it. I imagine us getting back together and everything being great. I keep holding onto that. Or I imagine that it was my fault, that I didn't experience it right, that it wasn't real and that I made a terrible, terrible mistake by breaking up with her.

Arg. This is so hard. Is all this thinking a result of abuse? Or, am I just crazy?

[dharmagems]

Was it abuse to you?  How did some of her behaviors feel to you? Did you feel bad about yourself?  Did you feel guilty or shame and doubt about yourself?  Only you can identify what abuse means to you.

She has BPD.  And now you've been reading on the board more about the condition, you get a bit more understanding why she did the things she did.

How about your FOO, family of origin, did you have abuse trauma there where you blamed yourself?

If you don't hold anger towards her, but anger towards yourself, "its my fault", then are you hurting yourself. Guilt, shame is mistreating yourself, abusing yourself.

Part of abuse from a perpetrator and a victim is making the victim feel like they are the looser.  It starts to tear their self esteem and identity down.  When the abuser is so sweet and loving, the victim becomes confused.  They start to become confused, doubt themselves, and start to feel guilty, "sometimes she's so loving to me!" and gains some of his self esteem from his abuser.  This is the dance between the pwBPD and nonBPD. 

To start to heal and get feelings of empowerment, you must understand that her behaviors arn't about you.  To empower yourself you could verbalize a calm and assertive boundary of what you will not tolerate.  Maybe you need to verbalize those boundaries to yourself.  You need to start to build your own identity and self esteem away from your abuser.

That is why after this kind of relationship, to heal we must spend the time and conscious effort to find yourselves again, give the strength, love, and power back to ourselves.  This is the way to move towards breaking free from this type of toxic r/s.

[GreenMango]

What's the hardest part you are struggling with?

Do you have a therapist?  Many find them to be really helpful with this.

[willy45]

Thanks all.

I think the part I'm struggling with the most is this dynamic that dharmagems laid out. I think that I felt it was always my fault. I mean, she would tell me so all the time.

This is how it would go down.

She would blow up at me in a rage for something that she wanted me to do but I didn't. These were usually very minor things like not sitting next to her at breakfast, rolling over in my sleep, using what she perceived as a 'tone' in my voice, what she perceived as looking at her funny, being 5 minutes late to pick her up, being busy with something when she wanted to talk... .  the list goes on and on and on. She would blow up into a rage and accuse me of causing the rage.

So, right after or during any blow up, it was my fault for my specific behaviors at the time. These things were never true.

Then she would cry and cry and cry.

After she would cry and cry and cry, she would later blame the rages on 'structural issues' which basically was a veiled attack on my lack of commitment. She would claim that the overarching cause of the rages had to do with my not living with her, my not marrying her, my not integrating her into my family. These things were all true. And I guess deep down, I believed her. Of course, I would try to fight back a bit and say that I wasn't committed to her because she would rage at me randomly. But then she would argue that she would rage at me because of this and if I just did these things, that she would stop. I guess deep, deep down, I knew this wasn't true. But, I still felt an incredible amount of guilt and shame about it. So, in a way, I accepted the behavior and made it my fault.

There are many things I am struggling with. Right now, I am struggling with a particular force of mental habit. I beat myself for having done wrong and, in the past, the pain of taking on this guilt and shame was alleviated by her. She would change overnight and be sweet and kind and loving. And in her mind, it was all forgotten. That would alleviate my pain until it happened again. She would shower me with love and adoration and kindness. It was like nothing ever happened. I remember asking her how she did that and she told me that she just compartmentalizes it and it goes away.

Now that she is no longer there, my mind continues to beat myself up. I continue to brutalize myself. I continue to accept the blame. And I am still looking for her to alleviate it. Except now she's gone. She's not there to do that anymore. So the pain gets worse. I feel the pain. And then I blame myself for feeling the pain for having broken up with her, for not committing to her, for leaving her for someone else, for not moving in with her. I blame myself for the pain. And since I have gotten used to her alleviating that pain, I blame myself for having gotten rid of her which causes me more pain which then in turn makes me want her to alleviate it. And on and on the cycle goes. It is a horrible downward spiral.

I have to fight it so hard. I want her back so that she can stop the pain, even though I know she is the one that caused it in the first place.

I guess that is an outcome of abuse?

And yes, I've been working with T over this. He is the one that has been encouraging me to own the label of abuse. He's been saying that for months and months. I guess it has taken a long time before I have been able to own that because I continued to think it was my fault.

[dharmagems]

johnnyorganic,

Well done, johnnyorganic!  You are understanding the deep source of your pain.  The source of your pain is the guilt and shame feelings being in this r/s with a pwBPD.  That is the dynamic of an abuser/victim.  To keep the victim around, the abuser does treat the victim sweet and kind and validates their victim.  That is why a victim stays.  The abuser slowly breaks down the self esteem of the victim to where the victim starts to believe it and only gets their support, care, and love from their abuser.  It's a cycle.  And worse, if the victim has low self esteem and seeks validation outside to begin with, it's even easier to lure them under their power.  This is a manipulation tactic used in many types and forms of abuse.  Many victims feel unworthy and start to develop even more low self esteem.  They turn to abusing themselves from prostitution, to drugs, alcohol, to obsessing over their abuser trying to fix them, or to attracting to themselves more abusers.  They live in their own misery saying to themselves, "I know I was the one that bad things were done to, but why do I hate myself more than the person who did those things to me?"  The victims end up abusing themselves and therefore others around them, even long after the actual abuse ended.  This is the cycle of abuse.  

Now you've begun to stop the abuse cycle by removing yourself from the environment.  You have the grace to see the dynamic objectively.  Most important, you can see your role in this abuser/victim dynamic.  

[willy45]

Thanks all.

Any other reality checks out there?

[GreenMango]

And yes, I've been working with T over this. He is the one that has been encouraging me to own the label of abuse. He's been saying that for months and months. I guess it has taken a long time before I have been able to own that because I continued to think it was my fault.

Denial can be really powerful.  It does sound like its been difficult.  Why do did you think it was your fault?

Maybe we can help reality check those reasons.

FYI nobody deserves to be abused.

[willy45]

Hi GreenMango,

Sorry this has taken so long to respond to you question.

Why do I think it is my fault?

Well, the relationship was long distance. And that was my doing. She was working on her dissertation and I was living in another town. She wanted to move up to live with me. I was living alone. She came up for a week during this period and had nothing but break down after break down. She was frantic about finishing her dissertation and there was all this pressure for her to finish (looking back, I don't really know where the pressure came from). But she came up to my home town and she couldn't work where I lived. I remember driving her to the University library and leaving her for the day. I came to pick her up and I found her sitting on the corner crying her eyes out. I thought that it would be best for her to stay where she lived while she finished and I would come visit 2 weeks a month until she was done. She kept telling me it was only going to be another few months so I figured, OK. I can do the long distance thing. That kept going for 3 years. When I would go visit her, there was so much stress. She would work 12-14 hours a day. I had to schedule in an hour here or an hour there to spend time with her. It sucked. And she would rage and yell at me all the time about stuff. It was so super stressful. One summer, I told her that I couldn't visit her until she was done because she was out of control with stress and would take it out on me.

Then, she got a job and moved to another city. That was stressful. She lived in her Dad's house in the basement for a month. It was awful. She was essentially sleeping in the boiler room. She found a place to live with roommate that was huge and at first, I was allowed to live there. But after a month, her roommates told me I couldn't live there anymore. So, back to the long-distance. At that point, I was really not committed. Her rages at me happened on every trip down there. I kept thinking I would break up with her after she would settle in and her drama would calm down. But, it never seemed to calm down. I would go down to see her and give it another shot. But each time I went to see her, she would rage at me uncontrollably for one thing or another. It wasn't good. I really wasn't committed, obviously. But, I would get roped back into giving it another try. Over and over and over again. For about 6 months. I kept thinking to myself, OK. If I see her and she doesn't rage at me, then I will commit. But she always did. Over the craziest things. And then I would come home and she would tell me that unless I came down with a ring and a proposal, to not bother. So, I told I wasn't going to bother. And then she would rage at me for 'breaking up' with her. I kept telling her that all I needed to see from her was a week or two where she wouldn't flip out at me. She never gave that me. She couldn't do it. Each and every trip was just as stressful as the next. I walked around on egg shells. Once, I thought she was going to hit me. I told her that. She told that was ridiculous, why would I ever think she was going to hit me? There was no apology for scarring me to the point where I thought she was going to hit me. She just thought I was being ridiculous or too sensitive or that I was just from another culture and didn't understand her way of communicating. Never an apology. She would come screeching down the stairs to curse and accuse me of not loving her, of thinking she was a 'crazy b*thc', and on and on and on.

So, ultimately, I never proposed. I never moved down to be with her. I eventually started a relationship with someone else. I feel horrible about all these things and especially starting this other relationship. That is so totally out of character for me. It was just nice to be with someone who didn't rage at me, who didn't wake me up in the middle of the night to yell at, who wouldn't make me sleep on a blow up mattress every night, who didn't guilt me all the time, who I could feel comfortable telling them how I felt. Still, I loved my ex BPD. And I kept hoping. I really kept hoping.

Now I see that a lot of my behavior had to do with being emotionally abused. She would rage at me and blame me for it. Every time. I moved into a new relationship prematurely because I was seeking calm. I wasn't thinking clearly. And I was addicted to the sex with my ex. Litterally. It felt like an addiction. Sometimes, we would have sex and everything seemed great again between us. Until a few days later and she would flip out at me and it would be awful.

So, these are the reasons why I think it is my fault. I didn't commit to her. I led her on. I knew deep down that this wasn't OK for me and that I had to break up with her. I knew that. I even moved on prematurely to be with someone else. But I stayed. I stayed because I kept hoping that maybe I was wrong. I kept trying.  We were compatible in so, so many ways. Except that she abused me. Constantly. It was all so confusing. Still is.

[GreenMango]

No problem in your own time.

Rjh you mentioned that you needed her not to rage to want to be married.  Sounds like you valued a peaceful and respectful atmosphere.  Many people want this.  And without it you couldn't move forward.

Are you sure this is leading her on or is it a boundary and you asking her to uphold an expectation?

[willy45]

That's a .great point. I will need to hold onto that. I am getting bettet at holding onto the idea that it was abuse although validation helps! I guess my boundaries kept getting pushed and my 'wise' self was pushing back.It is weird because during the RS I kept using the terminology of boundaries. When we broke up, she actually said 'you and your f*&%ing boundaries'. She kept telling me that my reactiobs were due to being from another culture. And for some reason, I still buy into that. I guess her implication was that my boundaries were not good for her. She needed to be with someone whom she could rage at and freak out on and then collude with her in being able to pretend like it never happened. Someone who could live in her fantasy that raging and freaking out has no impact on a person. For some reason, I feel bad that I am not that person. But, I don't want to be that person. And my standing up to her was my expression of that.

She kept telling me that if I just committed, we wpuld work everything out. Now that she is gone, I still think she could have been right and all my pain now would have been avoided. But, at the time, I did not beleive her. I guess I need to continue not believing her. She promised never to call me an ___hole again. But when I was about to move in with her, she calked me an ___hole every day. For no reason. That is when I told her to F off. That was it for me. I wasn't going to move my entire life around for someone who would be so cruel and mean. That wasn't love. And I don't deserve that kind if treatment.

[GustheDog]

You have stated yourself elsewhere that you see many parallels between our exes.  I've also seen you really harp on this "what if I committed?" concept.

Unless you tell me otherwise, I'll assume that we agree to the following "facts:"

- Your ex has BPD or strong BPD traits.

- My ex has BPD or strong BPD traits.

- pwBPD have categorically "intense and unstable" relationships/"stormy attachments."

- Even those pwBPD who stay with one partner over many years or for life (most likely a decidedly small minority), will still engage in acting-out behaviors towards their partner (i.e., raging, blaming, projecting, lying, cheating - you know the sorts of things that go on this list).

OK, now you've propounded that you're plagued with doubts over this "what if?" scenario of you committing to your ex because, maybe - you think - if you'd just done that, things would be great.  After all, this is what she's told you/how she's guilted you.

Well, johnnyorganic, I hereby offer up for close inspection myself and my experience to put this counterfactual of yours to rest.

If, on a scale of 1-10, a "10" is "all in" in terms of commitment, I was a "12."  I am not posting on this website because my BPD and I spend our evenings holding hands and sipping sweet tea on the porch swing while the dog and children frolic across our perfectly-manicured front lawn.

When someone has a thought disorder the trigger for which is intimate relationships with others, if anything, a showing of genuine commitment is going to fuel the storm - as you invariably would have discovered had you done so.  My guess is that, had you "committed," she'd eventually been running from you, rather than chasing you.  Stability and calm are not feasible outcomes of a BPD relationship.

Maybe if you committed, or were a bigger doormat, you'd have eeked out more time.  The end result would have been the same: an ended relationship or an unhappy relationship.

Another thing - when you're "all in," you have everything to lose.

[willy45]

Hey GusTheDog.

Your post made me laugh. And yes. I can accept your primary tenents. And yes. I think that the only way to have made it better would have been to be a bigger doormat. When I stopped engaging in the raging, the raging got worse. When I stopped trying to make her stop or discuss it with her, the raging got worse. I was.with her for almost 6 years. It was mostly long distance. And I would hate how I felt at various times on every single visit. I am grateful I didnt get more intertwined. She claims she never even 'so much as looked at another man'. At the same time, she told me that I shouldn't worry about her cheating on me because I would never find out about it anyways.

So, you are right. If here behavior was aweful without the commitment and being with her was litterally hell at least 50% of the time, then being more intertwinned would have probably killed me. The weekend before my moving in, she raged at me worse than she ever had. Well, not worse but more often. Over less important things. And looking at how she treats her family, I can only imagine it would have been worse. Perhaps much, much worse. 

Thanks for the counter factual. I really appreciate the support.

[GreenMango]

If, on a scale of 1-10, a "10" is "all in" in terms of commitment, I was a "12."  I am not posting on this website because my BPD and I spend our evenings holding hands and sipping sweet tea on the porch swing while the dog and children frolic across our perfectly-manicured front lawn.

  That was funny.

Rjh It's okay to not want to be with someone who mistreats you.  You really don't have to come up with anything more than that.

If she was working with you on it, it might be different.  But it sounds like this is the way she is and it runs up in direct contradiction to the way you are. 

[willy45]

Yeah. I think she was willing to go to counciling together. But not for her rage but for oir 'communication' issues. I was scared to go because I was certain that the councillor would have told me I needed to commit more. Had that happened, it would jave justified her rages. She was so convinved it was my fault and a result of my lack of commitment. She is very smart and would have turned on the charm. I think that I woukd have been fish in a barrel. She still thinks the relationship breakdown was 100% my fault.

[GreenMango]

Yeah. I think she was willing to go to counciling together. But not for her rage but for oir 'communication' issues.

That kind of makes it hard to get any traction if one person isn't willing to address some of the problems.  What was she willing to work on? 

I was scared to go because I was certain that the councillor would have told me I needed to commit more.

I would have been scared too.  Especially knowing what I know about abusive relationships now. 

Had that happened, it would jave justified her rages. She was so convinved it was my fault and a result of my lack of commitment. She is very smart and would have turned on the charm. I think that I woukd have been fish in a barrel. She still thinks the relationship breakdown was 100% my fault.

No relationship breakdown is 100% one person's fault.  Nothing is that proven.  There's 99% but 100% not happening.  And thinking about percentages isn't healthy.  It just turns into a blame game.

She had anger management issues, rages and abusive behavior.  You were non-committal until this was dealt with and could commit to more investment (P.S. I think this is healthy knowing your limits)  These things exacerbated a situation with a person who has abandonment and rejection issues turning into a repetitive abuse cycle that was like a negative feedback loop.  It just keeps getting worse.

It's okay to be non-committal until you see if a person is going to be healthy for you.  Are boundaries hard for you Rjh (no judgement just asking)?

[NonBPDSpouse]

OMG... .  

I could add to your list, as many of us can... .  

I used to get screamed at during the night for taking a leak because it disturbed her sleep.

As if I could control it... .  

I got screamed at for so many pitiful things that I could write a book.

During her rages I would let her know that I was allowing her to rage.

I also reminded her that I had the physical ability to shut her up at any time I wanted.

I would never do that of course, but I just felt I had to let her know that I was not afraid... .