Recent tensions

[yeeter]

OK - here is my recent tension with my uNPD/uBPD wife.  Relatively minor, but just part of the ongoing management of the relationship:

In an effort to get out and establish some time for myself, I signed up for a music class at the local community ed (ukulele).  The schedule was going to be tough to make due to other child event conflicts, but I did it anyway and figured I would just go when/if it worked and not worry about it.

I didnt tell my wife I did this.

Then a few weeks back was the night of the first session, which had crept up on me and so right that night I told my wife that I had signed up and would be gone for an hour that night for the class.

She was really upset and hurt that I didnt share with her.  I validated some.  But I went anyway.

Although I havent made it to any additional sessions until last night (due to schedule conflicts), last night I went again and it refreshed all the negative emotions for her.  She has brought it up several times since the initial outing:  That she felt we were making progress as a couple up until this point.  That Im not sharing my life with her.  That its a double standard and if she had done the same thing I would be really upset.  That I wasnt considerate of the mutual scheduling required.

Ive spent some time asking myself 'why' I didnt share.  I want to.  But cant.  (and I even tried explaining some of the 'why' with her - but as you know she really isnt interested in listening so I dont press it).  The whys have to do with not wanting to tell anyone (because then its just another obligation for me to follow through with, which I am completely overwhelmed with in life already).  And I didnt want to be judged by her (highly judgmental personality), and didnt want to have to have her 'bless' it (she is the ultimate authority on everything we do), or worse yet even deem it not workable and veto it.

So Ive been hearing a pretty good earfull about it all (its been over 5 weeks now and I went to the first, and then a second session just last night).  I just validate and let it go (umm... .  actually the letting it go part is hard)

Its bothering me.  To a large degree because I AGREE with her!  In the ideal relationship, I WOULD feel safe and comfortable sharing what I was doing with my life, and also the courtesy of giving advanced heads up on the schedule.   But I didnt want to do this.  I just wasnt up for the energy of positioning and fighting for it up front - so instead took the passive aggressive approach of just doing it and telling her after the fact.  Not the best.

And with all the crap I am getting about it, it kinda ruins the whole experience and I do feel a certain element of guilt every time I go.

My plan forward is to just keep going.  Validate when she is emotional about it.  And just ride it out.  But next time... .  I dont know.  Same questions to come up - should I sign up and just tell her, or should I consult with her what I am thinking about doing and get her inputs into the decision.

What actions can I take to make her less triggered every time I go?  (there may only be two sessions left, but I would like to do something like it again... .  have been craving the opportunity to get out and interact with other adults)

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[laelle]

I agree with the both of you.  Not telling her invalidated her importance in your life.  She will get insecure and before you know it your dealing with "is there another woman" or "you dont love me anymore".


Just a suggestion;

If you feel she was right, tell her.  "I understand that your not happy that I didnt tell you about the classes, It wasnt a very sharing thing to do."  "I wouldnt like it either."  I am sorry if I made you feel sad. As its important to me that we are close, I will be more sharing in the future. I have found that I do enjoy the classes and I would like to continue them. 


Let her have her say because you did just validate to her that you were wrong.    Dont take it to heart.  In the end you will get what you want.  Less tension with her and your lessons.

[laelle]

btw, I just hate telling my BPDbf that he was right.  Oh the drama    Have to grit my teeth with that one.

[DyingLove]

G I wish it was that easy with me. There are things you just can't share! You know it's wrong to not share,, and sometimes you even get excited because you would like to share,, but you just can't. On this end it's always the: we can talk about anything and we should talk about everything... .  but when you do talk about something it's like falling off the bed in that episode of the twilight zone and you're in another dimension! Just thinking about it is making me confused.

Wow! Just got an idea for a new business… BPD takeout service. For the significant others of BPD people that just don't get enough during the day. Just give me a call and I'll come over and confuse the heck out of you! Sorry I just had to.

[laelle]

I think everyone has a right to keep things to themselves.  You are two separate people.  In this case tho, it would cause problems with him sneaking off to have his class.  Just better to share it.

[yeeter]

I think everyone has a right to keep things to themselves.  You are two separate people.  In this case tho, it would cause problems with him sneaking off to have his class.  Just better to share it.

No no... .  there was never an intent of sneaking off.  The not sharing was about advanced sharing - during the decision making process, and advanced notice for schedule accommodations.

If I share up front things I am considering, she will have a dozen different 'reasons' for me to do something a certain way (or not do, etc etc).  I didnt have the energy to fight and position for something I wanted to do up front, so I booked and let her know 'after the fact' that the I was going, but still before I went anywhere.  :)efinitely no sneaking off.

Dying love gets it... .  part of how to manage staying in the relationship is NOT sharing everything!  And this seems to help the relationship.  But at the root of it, its against my underlying value system of how I feel it should work in a relationship (I believe you should share, and this sharing should strengthen not weaken a relationship)

So staying in this relationship means giving up some of my value system in order to make it work.

She is 'right' and I agree on how an ideal relationship should work, but its not an ideal relationship, and what works in a normal relationship doesnt work in this one.

The problem I have in agreeing to share in the future is that really, I dont want to agree to this!  (yep, that in and of itself is a problem... .  but I really dont have the energy to share everything Im going through with her.  I have withdrawn what I share (things happening at work, considering changing jobs or starting a new business even, hobbies, etc etc) because I dont want run over by her on it and also I dont want judged/criticized on how/what I 'should' or 'shouldnt' do (high NPD traits).  Its just a huge downer when I share something and it gets picked apart for all its faults.  And then immediately transitions into all the ways that what she has done with her life is better and more significant.

Its an avoidance tactic to be sure.  But I havent found a workable alternative.

[laelle]

In the end there is tension because you didnt tell her something that you knew she would find out about, right?, or am I understanding it wrong?  I dont debate the fact that "letting them in" is exhausting, and altogether invalidating,  only that she was going to find out anyway.

[yeeter]

In the end there is tension because you didnt tell her something that you knew she would find out about, right?, or am I understanding it wrong?  I dont debate the fact that "letting them in" is exhausting, and altogether invalidating,  only that she was going to find out anyway.

Yep - she was going to know (that is, IF I was able to actually attend... .  which wasnt entirely clear so I couldnt make a definitive decision - which would also be seen as just another thing that I signed up for but didnt follow through with).  So I put it off to the last minute.

Never about 'hiding' it from her.  It was about putting it off to the last minute before 'telling'.  And maybe as much about 'telling' her instead of 'asking' her.  I think a big part of what she is upset over is that she didnt get to influence/control the decision - I took that away via the passive aggressive element.

And I think... .  had I consulted her up front, the ensuing interaction would have caused me to just give up on the concept.  (this has been the historical implication).  Even now I have considered dropping it just because I dont have the energy for all the soothing/fallout.  Which means then again it becomes another item thrown down the black hole of the relationship (and a healthy and reasonable item imo)

[laelle]

Ah ok, perfectly understandable.   

[arabella]

Perhaps you need to work a little on the concept of 'telling' rather than 'asking'? It seems that by avoiding the issue until the last minute, you enabled a 'telling' mode - i.e. you were ready to go and walking out the door which prevented any push-back from your wife. So maybe the issue is just that you haven't fully developed your method for taking authority in your personal affairs. In your mind, advance notice = asking. Can you think of a way to develop 'telling' skills so that you will be able to be more effective in the future?

[yeeter]

So maybe the issue is just that you haven't fully developed your method for taking authority in your personal affairs. In your mind, advance notice = asking. Can you think of a way to develop 'telling' skills so that you will be able to be more effective in the future?

For certain this is the case. 

In this instance, I was juggling too many other things and didnt take the time and effort to lay it all out up front and get her buy-in, etc.  (didnt know myself if I was doing it until the last minute). 

I dont have any 'telling' skills that work.  I mean, sometimes it goes fine but sometimes it doesnt, and I havent figured out what I can do differently in the approach to affect the outcome.  If its something that she decides she is against, she will make it an argument, and then take the argument to such an extreme (a place I am not willing to go to).  So I do have a fear of setting something up this way - if I care about the outcome, because it implies relinquishing any control of the outcome.  So there is a battle over control buried in there.

[Auspicious]

Ya know, I totally understand why you did it that way.

Yeah, ideally you would have told her ahead of time, and then managed the fallout with the tools. But as you say, that can be exhausting sometimes, if there is going to be a lot of fallout.

Then again, you are managing the fallout now ... .  but as much as it would have been?  Hard to say. It is at least possible that when it comes to her, this is the least destructive way you can do it. I don't know if that is true, but it is possible, I think.

Either way, keep it in perspective, even if she can't. Even if you were all wrong (just for the sake of argument) ... .  let's keep it in perspective. You didn't rob her mother or run over her dog. You were (again, for the sake of argument) somewhat insensitive about something very minor with no long term consequences.  Big deal. Healthy people would get over it pretty quickly.

[yeeter]

Ya.  Its been a few weeks and she is still triggered by it so last night when I left for the hour she was upset the entire night.

I does bother me.  Because at the heart of it, it isnt how I want to treat the relationship.  Im trying different ways of interacting to change the dynamics, but something like this goes against my underlying value system of how to treat your partner.

A while back I started a thread about how in order to stay in the relationship you have to be willing to let go of some of your value system.  This is an example.

[arabella]

In this instance, I was juggling too many other things and didnt take the time and effort to lay it all out up front and get her buy-in, etc.  (didnt know myself if I was doing it until the last minute). 

I dont have any 'telling' skills that work.  I mean, sometimes it goes fine but sometimes it doesnt, and I havent figured out what I can do differently in the approach to affect the outcome.  If its something that she decides she is against, she will make it an argument, and then take the argument to such an extreme (a place I am not willing to go to).  So I do have a fear of setting something up this way - if I care about the outcome, because it implies relinquishing any control of the outcome.  So there is a battle over control buried in there.

Sometimes the battle is just too much, I've definitely felt that way!

I'm looking at what you wrote and it's still from the perspective of asking. Telling should not involve a "buy-in" or an argument. I know that DEARMAN says 'negotiate' - but that negotiation does not change your set answer, it only allows some compromise on details. It also sounds like when these arguments occur, you're JADEing - do think that's what's happening?

Can you sit down with her and explain - complete outside of this current context - that sometimes you need to do (small) things for yourself and they will not be up for negotiation? You value her input, but you need to be able to make independent decisions on occasion. I don't know your wife, so I don't know how good she is with learning new skills. This one involves  a lot of reassurance on your part, but also some trust on her part. You can tell her it's a mutual trust-building exercise for the r/s - you trust that she will accept your needs (within reason) so you are more forthcoming, in turn she trusts that you will not make decisions that will adversely affect your family. Then, the next time something like this comes up, remind her of the conversation, and be sure to give her lots of advance notice.

p.s. While I don't really think what happened was a big deal, and I more than understand why you did it, I can also see how it could be an abandonment trigger for someone w BPD. You left abruptly and without notice. I know it was a short time frame, but we're not dealing with an entirely rational mind here. Tough situation for sure!

[martillo]

I so understand the "avoidance" issues and this doesn't always work and sometimes I forget to use it, but one tool I use is the "be prepared" method.  If there is something I or the kids want or need to do my uBPDh is usually supportive - at first - but as it gets closer to time for the "event", he gets less and less supportive - so I try to make sure and present plans when he is in a good mood; if any child wrangling will be involved, I try to make sure as much as possible is done or ready so he has minimal responsibilities and that he knows arrangements have been or will be made and I try to make sure that a meal or food plan is in place and H and kids have eaten or will have something ready to eat at mealtime.  I also put things on the fridge calendar at home and our joint family and work web based calendar.   I also remind him if I feel that I need to.

Sometimes it works and all goes smoothly and sometimes the atomic emotion bomb goes off in my face.  And sometimes I forget to practice "preparedness" and I can get either result then too.    Depends on H's mood... .  

[Eco]

Hey yeeter 

usualy you are giving me insight and you are far more experianced in these matters then me but I felt like giving my 2 cents and if nothing more support.

First off I think your wife and my uNPD/BPDxgf are cut from the same cloth, the issues that you face are the same I was facing. and allthough I hate that you are going though tuff times its nice to feel that im not alone. those heavy NPD traits are brutal to deal with and its the most difficult thing ive had to deal with.

And I didnt want to be judged by her (highly judgmental personality), and didnt want to have to have her 'bless' it (she is the ultimate authority on everything we do), or worse yet even deem it not workable and veto it.

I understand completly, I always felt like if it wasnt my xgf's idea she would shoot it down someway and if she did go along with me she would later change her mind and say she didnt agree to that or change facts around. very frustrating and very draining to say the least. I will say that in the end it was always better to be very open and forthcoming with any plans because she is very aware of what i was doing. I was damned if I did and damned if i didnt so I try to be very informative so she cant say I was not sharing info with her,It keps me from feeling bad about my actions. she sees me as bad no matter what i do, its not easy stuff.

Its bothering me.  To a large degree because I AGREE with her!  In the ideal relationship, I WOULD feel safe and comfortable sharing what I was doing with my life, and also the courtesy of giving advanced heads up on the schedule.   But I didnt want to do this.  I just wasnt up for the energy of positioning and fighting for it up front - so instead took the passive aggressive approach of just doing it and telling her after the fact.  Not the best.

It would be nice, my main issue is I think I can get a duck to bark. no matter how hard I try It will never be a normal relationship with her. I fail at radical acceptance.

My plan forward is to just keep going.  Validate when she is emotional about it.  And just ride it out.  But next time... .  I dont know.  Same questions to come up - should I sign up and just tell her, or should I consult with her what I am thinking about doing and get her inputs into the decision.

I would consult first just to include her in your plans ahead of time and plan on doing it regardless, the reason for me was if i wasnt stern about my plans she would see me as weak and turn into a shark with blood in the water. Firm was always best

The problem I have in agreeing to share in the future is that really, I dont want to agree to this!  (yep, that in and of itself is a problem... .  but I really dont have the energy to share everything Im going through with her.  I have withdrawn what I share (things happening at work, considering changing jobs or starting a new business even, hobbies, etc etc) because I dont want run over by her on it and also I dont want judged/criticized on how/what I 'should' or 'shouldnt' do (high NPD traits).  Its just a huge downer when I share something and it gets picked apart for all its faults.  And then immediately transitions into all the ways that what she has done with her life is better and more significant.

can relate x10 with this, I would avoid talks with my xgf all the time which created another issue between us, normaly im very open and love to share details about my life but because of those reasons you mentioned I became a mute with her and she started to see me as acting " creepy and wiered" I couldnt say to her "well if you didnt run me into the dirt with everything i do i would share my day with you" .

one of my biggest issues with my xgf was feeling resentment towards her she would constantly and consistanly try to keep me below her feet, in her eyes I fail at everything where she shines and is golden.

If its something that she decides she is against, she will make it an argument, and then take the argument to such an extreme (a place I am not willing to go to).  So I do have a fear of setting something up this way - if I care about the outcome, because it implies relinquishing any control of the outcome.  So there is a battle over control buried in there.

Its a awful feeling, my xgf rages are epic but if I keep my teflon suite on and detach it doesnt sting as bad. control is the objective for them very frustrating.

I wish i had some good advice for you but im still behind the 8 ball as well and looking for answers. just wanted to let you know youre not alone. NPD and BPD together is a tuff combo . take care of you and your kids

[Chosen]

Hi yeeter,

I know that feeling of "I want to share but I don't want to cause trouble by sharing".  I'm guilty of this as well.  I think it's alright but only if you can also hide what you're doing from her.  E.g. for me, I'm seeing a Counselor once every two weeks or so, somebody which I can just share about the situations with H.  I will of course never tell him about that, but it's also not difficult because I do that during lunch.  So in fact I'm not even lying to him, I just don't tell him whom I'm going out to lunch with.

However, if like in your case she will find out about the classes, it is probably best to let her know... .  I know it sucks and she may not like it, but just think of all the trouble you will/ are having because you didn't tell her.  Of course, if you tell her earlier on she may refuse you this opportunity, which means you won't get to do it... .  but I suppose there is a mid-way and you can somehow negotiate with her how you handle your time and make some compromise?

[waverider]

I went through this a few time when starting to establishing my stuff. For me it was about wanting to own things for me and have the right to choose whether I will do XYX or not. Once you state it, it becomes locked into black/ white, yes /no scenario. As it was you could have decided not to bother but had to have gone through all the fall out for no reason, so you keep it close to you chest, which then causes genuine greviences.

My approach now is to say I may or may not be doing XYZ at some stage if I can find the time and it doesn't clash with anyone else. Leave all dates and scheduling out of it. When time arrives say day before I know if I want to go and that it would'nt cause any physical clashes, thats when I say I will be doing XYZ tommorrow.

I went through this procedure with a few things I could take or leave at first just to establish a precedent, and not get too disappointed if it didn't work.

Now I have established that right I dont get many dramas over things I really want to do. The only thing that stops me are the same concerns that would occur in a regular relationship.

[Tigerabbit]

I agree that it would be good for you to work on on "telling" instead of "asking". I understand the aversion there out of wanting to avoid a blow up or the energy of trying to convince her to "let" you do such and such. Do you have any boundaries set up where you've told her you will leave a conversation if she gets controlling/abusive/demeaning/whatever it is she does that you're not willing to tolerate? Maybe you can set this up with her ahead of time (so it's not just sprung unexpectedly on her, making her fear abandonment), and then next time tell her ahead of time (gently), and if she portrays any behaviors other than just voicing her thoughts/feelings on it in a respectful manner, you can exit the conversation and be firm in your decision, minimizing the fallout, so to speak.

Another idea, in addition to this, is to not just tell her in an informative "I just want to let you know that... .  " fashion, but talk to her about it as if you were telling a friend. Maybe say something along the lines of, "I'm so excited! I just signed up for hit_ !" And then if she expresses concerns about scheduling or anything else, you can of course validate her and ensure her that you know where your priorities lie and that it will come second to those things as needed. Perhaps if she sees you sharing your excitement with her rather than just "letting her know", she will be less likely to react negatively, or at least her reaction might be tempered a lot by realizing that it's something you derive happiness from. Just my thoughts... .   

[Auspicious]

One possible thing to do if child watching is an issue, is to line up a babysitter.

You can always present it as a gift - "hey, I've got X event this Friday. I've got Patty coming over to watch the kids, so you can do whatever you want, too "

If she gets upset ... .  "oh. Well, the last three times I had something, you said you were upset that I 'stuck you with the kids', so I scheduled her to help so you would have some free time too "

(Promise the babysitter ahead of time that you will pay her regardless ... .  even if your wife sends her home.)