An Apology- I

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Ok, I am beginning to understand you a little better.  You fear your husband finding out and what it will do to him, you and your marriage.  You also struggle with can you live with yourself if you keep it secret.  Those are valid fears Sheep.

I think you have crossed a "boundary" that you dont know how to come back from and you feel lost.  Its totally out of your element to solve.  Am I right?

Ive been there.

Please dont take me as a bad person, but it would be your word against this guys right?  What are the odds that this guy is going to come back around?

laelle - you completely nailed it.  All of the above first two paragraphs is how I feel.  I can not get past it, over it, through it, don't know what to do with it.

It is my word against his but he has some emails but I can't remember what they say and I am afraid of his leverage with that.  He has not contacted me, doubt he will, but he is mentally ill and him telling before me telling would be devastating.

There are a few things you've said here, sheepdog, that struck a chord.

She gave me a book on shame and I am 2/3 of the way through. It is not helping. All of the adults in the book had horrible things happen to them. Things they did not choose.

Look, I wasn't there and I don't have all the details etc; however, a lot of what you describe as happening did very much happen TO you. I'm a bit concerned about posting this because it may trigger all sorts of re-victimization issues for you, especially if you were subject to some childhood trauma (as you indicated in your first post) but... .   Are you sure that some of this shame isn't stemming from being a victim? A loss of control? Because, honestly, if you are telling a man "no" repeatedly and he still insists and starts touching you - that is sexual assault. It is nothing but victim-blaming to say that a woman 'should have fought back more', 'should have said no more often or in a different tone', or 'should have screamed', or 'she sort of participated at the end' or any other ridiculous thing. No means no. The end. Manipulating a friend, especially one that he knows has little experience in sexual relations, into having any sort of physical contact that is unwanted is sexual abuse and it is wrong (and illegal - but now you see why so many sexual assaults go unreported). I think you may need to shift your perspective here a little. I am really, truly, very sorry that this happened to you but you can not continue to justify the behaviour of your BPDexfriend by saying that it is all your fault. Maybe it's time to look at that book your T gave you in a new light?

You sound like you are struggling a lot with keeping this experience from your husband. Sheepdog, I'm sorry, but I don't think you're going to be able to work through this without him. Can you talk to your therapist and come up with an action plan? Perhaps your therapist could even meet with both of you to help you tell him? Your husband deserves the truth and you deserve to live in the truth and not be hiding and self-shaming. Stop the cycle.

I've always been so steadfast in my faith.  My moral compass was always pointing up, or at least trying to.

As for faith... .   What is faith but belief in the unbelievable? It is nothing to believe that nothing is more than ourselves. It is faith to believe that a greater power exists that is capable of far more than little 'ol us (I don't think it really matters which particular 'higher power' you follow). God can forgive even the unforgivable, He can do the impossible - otherwise He would not be worshipped. You have faith otherwise you wouldn't be concerned with whether God could forgive you. It's you that doesn't want to forgive yourself - God forgave you before any of this even happened. That's just how it works.

Being steadfast when there is no great challenge is easy. This is a test and you are going to make it through because you DO have a good moral compass. Now is the time for faith. Now is the time to prove that you can forgive as God commanded - forgiving yourself is the hardest challenge of all. If your moral compass wasn't still pointing up then you wouldn't have this struggle at all. Now it's time to overcome the struggle and move forward. Your husband deserves to have his best friend and wife back, fully present, not living in the past.

Take care, sheepdog.

arabella, you as well gave me so much to think about.  What you said in the first paragraph really struck a cord with me.  We actually had several convesrsations about how I needed him to stop.  But a couple of these took place when we were laying on his bed talking so really - how dumb am I?  And I have to be honest - when I first met him I thought he was a really nice, 'upbeat' buy (holy crap how wrong THAT was) but I had ZERO attraction to him.  Even if I did not have a husband, I would have had zero attraction to him.  I don't know how he did it but toward the end of the physical part of our relationship (before everything imploded and we went back to no physical stuff) I *craved* his touch.  I was like an addict. 

I don't know if I can get trhough this without my husband but when I think of telling him, the pain it would bring, the trust it would devastate - I just want to die.  I have been feeling like that a lot.  If I start to think about it, I get the most intense panic attacks.

Your last sentence, about what my husband deserves, made me cry so hard.  You are right.

But I really don't think I can forgive myself for this.  I don't.

... .   And I don't want anyone to feel I'm judging others and what they do.  Flawed people are usually some of my favorite people

OK... .   when it comes to flawed people... .   what about sheepdog? Other flawed people are you favorites, but not yourself. What's with that? 

And yes, I think Arabella hit a big nail right on the head there--you were manipulated, you were taken advantage of.

I just re-read first post in this thread--he started with talking of suicide early, and used that to manipulate you.

That thought hits home to me--I had a "friend" when I was in my teens who I decided (after the fact) was some sort of nutjob. (He was a pathological liar for sure... .   Right now I'm wondering about BPD (w/NPD traits)... .   not that a diagnosis matters now since he is gone from my life.) I remember talking on the phone for hours into the night. I remember being sucked in because I was afraid that he would commit suicide if I hung up on him. I also remember him pulling the same exact crap, when I got tired of it... .   with my younger sister (who had a bizarre dating relationship with him, except that she never saw his house, and it was mostly over the phone)... .   then my mother [no dating, ]... .   then tried it with my girlfriend, and maybe another friend. He sorta continued to stalk my sister through my mom for quite a while, and I even got an email from him 20 years later. Just plain bizarre.

But I gotta say that the suicide stuff is powerful. Today I've got better resources. (The big red "EMERGENCY" link on the bottom of each post here has good information on how to deal with someone who is talking about suicide) I do think it should be taken seriously, and not just written off as a way to manipulate you... .   but sometimes it sure does get used for manipulation too!

Then AFTER he had broken you down with various manipulative games and stunts, he initiated all the stuff that you are ashamed of. Not you. He did started it.

His behavior was abusive. You were being backed into this corner, not seeking something dark and evil. I know you have regrets about how far you did let things go. But remember you weren't trying to do any of it! Your story is not one of those "I know what it is wrong, but I just can't stop myself from going back for more... .   " kind of stories

I hope you are able to forgive yourself soon. You weren't acting out of any dark motivation--It sounds like your kindness and concern for another person was the source of this. That is nothing to be ashamed of.

But my story did turn into that.  As I said to arabella above, I craved him, wanted him, it was like I hummed when he was around.

I appreciate your thoughts but my kindness and concern should have been focused on my husband and what I was doing to him. 

[sheepdog]

Ok, I am beginning to understand you a little better.  You fear your husband finding out and what it will do to him, you and your marriage.  You also struggle with can you live with yourself if you keep it secret.  Those are valid fears Sheep.

I think you have crossed a "boundary" that you dont know how to come back from and you feel lost.  Its totally out of your element to solve.  Am I right?

Ive been there.

Please dont take me as a bad person, but it would be your word against this guys right?  What are the odds that this guy is going to come back around?

laelle - you completely nailed it.  All of the above first two paragraphs is how I feel.  I can not get past it, over it, through it, don't know what to do with it.

It is my word against his but he has some emails but I can't remember what they say and I am afraid of his leverage with that.  He has not contacted me, doubt he will, but he is mentally ill and him telling before me telling would be devastating.

There are a few things you've said here, sheepdog, that struck a chord.

She gave me a book on shame and I am 2/3 of the way through. It is not helping. All of the adults in the book had horrible things happen to them. Things they did not choose.

Look, I wasn't there and I don't have all the details etc; however, a lot of what you describe as happening did very much happen TO you. I'm a bit concerned about posting this because it may trigger all sorts of re-victimization issues for you, especially if you were subject to some childhood trauma (as you indicated in your first post) but... .   Are you sure that some of this shame isn't stemming from being a victim? A loss of control? Because, honestly, if you are telling a man "no" repeatedly and he still insists and starts touching you - that is sexual assault. It is nothing but victim-blaming to say that a woman 'should have fought back more', 'should have said no more often or in a different tone', or 'should have screamed', or 'she sort of participated at the end' or any other ridiculous thing. No means no. The end. Manipulating a friend, especially one that he knows has little experience in sexual relations, into having any sort of physical contact that is unwanted is sexual abuse and it is wrong (and illegal - but now you see why so many sexual assaults go unreported). I think you may need to shift your perspective here a little. I am really, truly, very sorry that this happened to you but you can not continue to justify the behaviour of your BPDexfriend by saying that it is all your fault. Maybe it's time to look at that book your T gave you in a new light?

You sound like you are struggling a lot with keeping this experience from your husband. Sheepdog, I'm sorry, but I don't think you're going to be able to work through this without him. Can you talk to your therapist and come up with an action plan? Perhaps your therapist could even meet with both of you to help you tell him? Your husband deserves the truth and you deserve to live in the truth and not be hiding and self-shaming. Stop the cycle.

I've always been so steadfast in my faith.  My moral compass was always pointing up, or at least trying to.

As for faith... .   What is faith but belief in the unbelievable? It is nothing to believe that nothing is more than ourselves. It is faith to believe that a greater power exists that is capable of far more than little 'ol us (I don't think it really matters which particular 'higher power' you follow). God can forgive even the unforgivable, He can do the impossible - otherwise He would not be worshipped. You have faith otherwise you wouldn't be concerned with whether God could forgive you. It's you that doesn't want to forgive yourself - God forgave you before any of this even happened. That's just how it works.

Being steadfast when there is no great challenge is easy. This is a test and you are going to make it through because you DO have a good moral compass. Now is the time for faith. Now is the time to prove that you can forgive as God commanded - forgiving yourself is the hardest challenge of all. If your moral compass wasn't still pointing up then you wouldn't have this struggle at all. Now it's time to overcome the struggle and move forward. Your husband deserves to have his best friend and wife back, fully present, not living in the past.

Take care, sheepdog.

arabella, you as well gave me so much to think about.  What you said in the first paragraph really struck a cord with me.  We actually had several convesrsations about how I needed him to stop.  But a couple of these took place when we were laying on his bed talking so really - how dumb am I?  And I have to be honest - when I first met him I thought he was a really nice, 'upbeat' buy (holy crap how wrong THAT was) but I had ZERO attraction to him.  Even if I did not have a husband, I would have had zero attraction to him.  I don't know how he did it but toward the end of the physical part of our relationship (before everything imploded and we went back to no physical stuff) I *craved* his touch.  I was like an addict. 

I don't know if I can get trhough this without my husband but when I think of telling him, the pain it would bring, the trust it would devastate - I just want to die.  I have been feeling like that a lot.  If I start to think about it, I get the most intense panic attacks.

Your last sentence, about what my husband deserves, made me cry so hard.  You are right.

But I really don't think I can forgive myself for this.  I don't.

... .   And I don't want anyone to feel I'm judging others and what they do.  Flawed people are usually some of my favorite people

OK... .   when it comes to flawed people... .   what about sheepdog? Other flawed people are you favorites, but not yourself. What's with that? 

And yes, I think Arabella hit a big nail right on the head there--you were manipulated, you were taken advantage of.

I just re-read first post in this thread--he started with talking of suicide early, and used that to manipulate you.

That thought hits home to me--I had a "friend" when I was in my teens who I decided (after the fact) was some sort of nutjob. (He was a pathological liar for sure... .   Right now I'm wondering about BPD (w/NPD traits)... .   not that a diagnosis matters now since he is gone from my life.) I remember talking on the phone for hours into the night. I remember being sucked in because I was afraid that he would commit suicide if I hung up on him. I also remember him pulling the same exact crap, when I got tired of it... .   with my younger sister (who had a bizarre dating relationship with him, except that she never saw his house, and it was mostly over the phone)... .   then my mother [no dating, ]... .   then tried it with my girlfriend, and maybe another friend. He sorta continued to stalk my sister through my mom for quite a while, and I even got an email from him 20 years later. Just plain bizarre.

But I gotta say that the suicide stuff is powerful. Today I've got better resources. (The big red "EMERGENCY" link on the bottom of each post here has good information on how to deal with someone who is talking about suicide) I do think it should be taken seriously, and not just written off as a way to manipulate you... .   but sometimes it sure does get used for manipulation too!

Then AFTER he had broken you down with various manipulative games and stunts, he initiated all the stuff that you are ashamed of. Not you. He did started it.

His behavior was abusive. You were being backed into this corner, not seeking something dark and evil. I know you have regrets about how far you did let things go. But remember you weren't trying to do any of it! Your story is not one of those "I know what it is wrong, but I just can't stop myself from going back for more... .   " kind of stories

I hope you are able to forgive yourself soon. You weren't acting out of any dark motivation--It sounds like your kindness and concern for another person was the source of this. That is nothing to be ashamed of.

But my story did turn into that.  As I said to arabella above, I craved him, wanted him, it was like I hummed when he was around.

I appreciate your thoughts but my kindness and concern should have been focused on my husband and what I was doing to him. 

[Phoenix.Rising]

None of us our saints.  We all 'fall short', so to speak.  It is part of the human condition.  We were made that way!  We are perfectly imperfect.  I understand sending negative messages to oneself, but part of recovery is changing those negative tapes we play in our heads to positive ones, even if we don't believe it or feel like it.  God does forgive you for your mistakes.  You are not unique in making mistakes.  We all fall into that category.  You are not any worse of a 'sinner' than anyone else.  This is the reality.  So why can't you forgive yourself?  What makes you so special?  Those are tough questions, but I have to ask the same ones to myself at times. 

I can tell from your posts that you are a kind, sensitive, empathetic, loving person.  You are not bad.  You are not a mistake.  On the contrary, you are a good person, worthy of love and light.  You are accepted on this forum.  You are accepted by your Creator, all of you, good and 'bad'.

Relationships with pwBPD seem to have a tendency to really blow our worlds open, where we end up feeling completely beaten down and broken.  Then we have to look hard at ourselves and realize that we probably had our own wounds that had been there for a long time.  In that sense, the pwBPD was a gift to us.  I believe everything happens for a reason.  The pain and misery can be catalysts toward positive change if we allow it.  I don't believe it was a mistake that you had a relationship with the pwBPD.  There is a gift in it if you choose to receive it.  Why do you hate yourself?  There is nothing wrong with you.  Keep looking.  I'm sorry you are hurting so much.   

[arabella]

We actually had several convesrsations about how I needed him to stop.  But a couple of these took place when we were laying on his bed talking so really - how dumb am I?  And I have to be honest - when I first met him I thought he was a really nice, 'upbeat' buy (holy crap how wrong THAT was) but I had ZERO attraction to him.  Even if I did not have a husband, I would have had zero attraction to him.  I don't know how he did it but toward the end of the physical part of our relationship (before everything imploded and we went back to no physical stuff) I *craved* his touch.  I was like an addict. 

I don't know if I can get trhough this without my husband but when I think of telling him, the pain it would bring, the trust it would devastate - I just want to die.  I have been feeling like that a lot.  If I start to think about it, I get the most intense panic attacks.

Your last sentence, about what my husband deserves, made me cry so hard.  You are right.

But I really don't think I can forgive myself for this.  I don't.

*****

But my story did turn into that.  As I said to arabella above, I craved him, wanted him, it was like I hummed when he was around.

I appreciate your thoughts but my kindness and concern should have been focused on my husband and what I was doing to him. 

Sheepdog, I've edited what you've said (above) to get to some of the fundamentals. Your question, "how dumb am I?" because of where your conversation took place - just stop right there. You are not dumb and this is not your fault. The location of a conversation does NOT EVER justify sexual assault. No means no. I don't care if you were dancing naked in front of him. This is just more victim-blaming (in your case, self-blaming and self-shaming). Please stop. What he did is not okay. NOT OKAY. And your word against his? Yes, that's generally what happens in assault cases. That's what perpetrators count on to keep their victims silent. It's very wrong. Please consider calling a sexual assault helpline. Just ask a few questions, tell them how you're feeling - I guarantee that your story is going to, unfortunately, not be new to them. Please, Sheepdog, you need to stop taking on the weight of this alone, it's not right.

The after effects, "craving him" etc. - that is often the case with assault victims. It's similar to Stockholm Syndrome and mostly it's a psychological protection mechanism. Unfortunately it can also cause a lot of long term emotional baggage, as you are discovering.

Should you have been thinking of your husband while another person was using every weapon at his disposal to violate your boundaries? Uhh... .   sure you could argue that, but I'd say you had your hands (mind) full already dealing with a sexual predator. In any event, you can't undo the past - you can only move forward. If you can't forgive yourself for your own benefit (and I'm not sure there's as much to 'forgive' as you think, per my previous comments), you might consider forgiving yourself for your husband's sake. And you aren't even giving him a chance to 'forgive' you - do you think you'll ever be able to trust him to do that for you?

[livednlearned]

Sheepdog,

I had a childhood with a lot of sketchy physical abuse from my brother. I've done some work around that, and how it ties into my current emotions.

You say you feel like you're 12. It sounds possible that something did happen to you as a kid? Lying there not doing anything while someone does something to you. I totally understand that, it happened to me too. Shame is a powerful, powerful psychological and emotional way of coping with something we can't deal with in the moment, but it's benefits wear off and it starts to choke us later in life.

If this is connected to repressed shame from childhood, then "letting" this happen means something entirely different as a child than it does as an adult. It means that you are emotionally regressing to a child's age and experiencing the shame of "letting" in exactly the same way you might have as a kid. The work with your T is really, really important, if you'll allow yourself to go back into those feelings.

[sheepdog]

I so appreciate everyone's comments.  I do.  I am sitting here just numb.  We went to the movies tonight with two other couples.  A nice time but I am just finding it hard to be normal. 

I hear what the three of you are saying about the sexual abuse, etc... .   But my mind tells me that is just an excuse to justify a really bad thing I did.  I'm not being belligerent.  Not undermining what you are saying.  It's just how I fell.

My therapist does not want to explore my past, FOO, possible molestation until, "THIS is resolved."  Her exact words.  I am assuming that 'this' means me and BPD and what the draw was to him, the insanely strong pull.  I asked her if it was connected to the possible sexual assault of my childhood, or to someone he may remind me of, or chaos or something, and she said we couldn't start working on that until we had worked on he and I.

So I don't know.

See? the thing is, no my husband and I didn't have the perfect relationship - no one does - but he is perfect for me and I used to be for him.  It was he and I.  I love the elderly.  Our uncle recently passed away.  He had been with our aut for 65 years.  Never looked at another woman.  I can't say that now.  I have ruined that.  Have ruined our 'you and me against the world.' 

I just now got a text from one of the couples saying how much she loves me and how 'what you see is what you get' and how she and her husband had so much fun tonight.  And I want to just scream.  She has no idea.

My therapist thinks it is significant for some reason that I never let him have sex with me, never really touched him.  I don't know.  Cheating doesn't have to mean full penetration.  It doesn't mean touching even.  I let BPD into my heart, told him private things, let him touch me. 

I have therapy tomorrow.  I don't really know what to say.

I feel lost.

Even this post, I feel like I'm whining.  I was stunned when livednlearned responded because no other ambassador or board leader has touched any of my posts.  And that gets all mucked in with my toxic shame and I tell myself, "See?  he ambassadors see right through you.  You are dirty and they don't even want to answer you."

I'm a mess.

In the movie tonight, a character died and I almost had a panic attack thinking about my own death.  I used to lie awake at night as a child scared to die and I felt that tonight.  I feel I am not going to Heaven.  Not going to see my mom and other loved ones (even though some friends of a different religion told me that they believe you don't recognize each other up there).

I really just wish I could go back in time four years.  Back to a time when, even though I didn't KNOW myself, I recognized myself.

[livednlearned]

I don't think you're dirty, or whiny, or bad. I think you're brave for doing this, being honest, going to therapy, trying to understand what happened.

I believe something deep inside us moves ourselves in the direction we most need to heal, whether we like it or not. The more we don't want to acknowledge it, the stronger the compulsion to deal with it.

Do you want to be rid of the shame? It seems like it is terrorizing you, but then you also seem to be... .   taking sides with it?

[arabella]

I hear what the three of you are saying about the sexual abuse, etc... .   But my mind tells me that is just an excuse to justify a really bad thing I did.  I'm not being belligerent.  Not undermining what you are saying.  It's just how I fell.

My therapist does not want to explore my past, FOO, possible molestation until, "THIS is resolved."  Her exact words.  I am assuming that 'this' means me and BPD and what the draw was to him, the insanely strong pull.  I asked her if it was connected to the possible sexual assault of my childhood, or to someone he may remind me of, or chaos or something, and she said we couldn't start working on that until we had worked on he and I.

Do you want to be rid of the shame? It seems like it is terrorizing you, but then you also seem to be... .   taking sides with it?

I think you're being very honest, very brave, and strong right now, Sheepdog. Maybe you don't believe in yourself right now but other people do. That can be really hard to accept too. You are your harshest critic. And you are most definitely not a bad person!

Have you discussed with your T that perhaps some of your history needs to be discussed because it directly impacts THIS? I get that your T doesn't want to get bogged down in your FOO issues but, if the two things are intimately related, then you are just dancing around finding the root of your current torment. You may HAVE to explore some of that old stuff in order to understand the current stuff. Nothing happens in isolation.

livednlearned makes a good point - it sounds like you are defending the feelings of shame. I don't mean this in a critical way, more an observation. You sound like you want to blame yourself. This is along the lines of an earlier comment I made re your subconscious wanting to be 'in control' - to not feel like a victim. The amount of responsibility you are taking is not healthy. Yes, recognizing our own roles and taking responsibility for our actions is important, but you sound like you've taken it to a problematic extreme. Your feelings about what happened are exactly the way an abuser grooms you to feel, wants you to feel, needs you to feel... .   in order to get away with it and to feel like they aren't the 'bad person'.

Can you take a print out of this thread to your T? Maybe some of your posts and the responses here could give her some insight into being able to help you?

[C12P21]

When I read your posts Sheep Dog, it is so obvious that you are a caring, compassionate person. You feel remorse and regret for your actions, are concerned about your husband's response, you obviously feel loyalty toward your husband and the relationship. Your emotions and confusion about your actions are normal and healthy because you are examining what happened and the harder part is understanding the why it happened.

Right now you are sorting through events of the past and how they are linked to your choices and behaviors. When I read the sequence of the events, it is fairly obvious this man manipulated you, your trust, and your confused emotional state.

When a person experiences sexual trauma in childhood or the teen years, there are psychological consequences that impact the adult years. These consequences causes an impairment, the impairment is manifested in various ways, each unique to the individual. Since you are experiencing shame, remorse, regret, and concern it's pretty obvious you have the ability to feel your feelings, understand how your actions impact others, and are responsible enough to evaluate what has happened and take responsibility. You are amazing  .

You stopped the abuse of your adult abuser, the friend you describe is no friend, he is a sexual predator. Yes, you trusted him, yes, you may have been drawn toward him, and you know what, that's okay... .   but somewhere along the way, there were boundary violations and you ended up feeling shamed and confused. What is really wonderful is you stopped further violations of your boundaries, somewhere inside you was strength and wisdom to listen to your inner voice that warns you... .   and you listened.   

Now the hard work is sorting through it all and you are doing this.

The impairment of early childhood or teen sexual trauma is the sense of shame the victim is left with, sometimes the victim tries very hard throughout their life to be good, to erase the shame that was deposited in our psyche during the times of our violations. And all the confusion of our shame remains hidden until an event occurs that opens us up to that wound, we feel it, we cannot erase it, we cannot wash it away by being super clean, a perfect person, or a faithful servant... .   it is there and it is an opportunity for personal growth.

Right now, you are shining a light on that shame... . you are expressing your emotional pain on this board, examining yourself,going to therapy, and evaluating your faith. As painful as this is, the work is being done by you to ensure you know your boundaries and you feel firm with them.

I realize your T wants you to evaluate the present situation before looking at your childhood. What might happen is as you go through this, memories of childhood events will be recalled and sometimes those memories are significant in how those earlier events shaped you and influenced your thinking about yourself and your responses to situations in adult life.

From my own experience, when I was sexually abused in adult life or dating years, I realized the numbness I experienced was my response to not knowing how to defend myself, not understanding my conflicted emotions, (I trusted this person, loved them and wanted affection but not sex and did not know how to say STOP because I felt responsible for their desire of me and did not want to hurt their feelings, after all, wasn't I in the room with them. This is victim blaming... .   I did it to myself and felt way more responsible for what happened than the predators did) and in the aftermath much of what I experienced emotionally is similar to what you are stating.

You might discuss with your therapist your fear that the predator will disclose the events to your husband. Perhaps she can guide you in taking steps to protect yourself.

 

I can't say that now.  I have ruined that.  Have ruined our 'you and me against the world.'

No, you haven't ruined this, you have just been exposed to the world, and your inner wound is unveiled. Someone you trusted was in your home and he is a predator, the world came to your doorstep. You are taking steps to understand your response to the wolf in sheep's clothing. Right now you are struggling to accept that since you fell into the trap of the world, can Christ forgive you, will God forgive you. That fear, that shame and grief is what drives us into the world... . it takes courage to forgive ourselves and accept God's promise.

And one other thing, you mention that your fear is you will not get into heaven. Since you are a Christian, I ask this of you... . did Christ not take on the sins of world on that cross? Did he not know what it felt like, in that moment, to experience the shame of every sin there is? Did he not understand your heart in that moment?

The effect of falling away is to re-crucify Christ and put Him to open shame. When Christ went to the cross and died as our substitute He died to make us right with God. When we turn our backs on Him and return to the world we are saying the world is more worthy than the love of Christ. We are saying in effect that we agree with those who crucified Christ.

The author is not describing backsliding Christians or believers who have fallen into sin. Even Peter who denied Christ three times was "renewed unto repentance." The sin described in this passage is not the sin of a believer, but the open total renunciation of the person and work of Jesus Christ. Peter experienced the work of the Holy Spirit in his heart because he was a true believer. The unbeliever does not experience this kind of change in the heart.

The Bible is emphatic that the grace and forgiveness of sins and cleansing in the blood of Christ is freely available to every believer who sins and comes to Him confessing them (Heb. 4:14-16; 10:19-22; 1 John 1:7-10; 2:1-2).

Accepting that we are loved by a higher power, by God himself, the mystery that created us is to know God. Life is a gift, you are the gift. If this were not true, when Christ was on the cross, he would have stated "Forgive them, with the exception of Sheepdog, she isn't here right now but will show up in a couple of thousand years" (I hope you know I am making a point here, right?)

Don't allow the actions of predator to shame you away from the love that is there and the joy of knowing you are precious. You may not experience this joy right now as you struggle with your conscience, your emotions, and all the confusion but my hope is you know this, he is carrying you and his steps will not falter. 

C

[AnotherPhoenix]

  Hi Sheepdog,

How are you doing today?

I apologize for not responding to your post until now. My life has gotten very messy over the last two weeks.

May I give you a warm, caring hug over the internet? 

Can you take a print out of this thread to your T? Maybe some of your posts and the responses here could give her some insight into being able to help you?

This sounds like a good idea.

Your exBPD figured out what would "hook" you, make you "buzz"--manipulators are great at this, and then used it. You were trusting with him, and he took advantage of it. 

Shame on him!

Can you put this shame back onto him?

I agree with what Arabella and LnL have said: You are being very honest, brave, and strong by examining what happened with your T and in this forum.

AnotherPheonix   

[sheepdog]

I honestly can not thank all of you enough to 'talking' to me about all this.

I guess that I am 'taking sides with it.'  But honestly, shouldn't I be?  I broke one of the BIG TEN, a commandment, I abused the trust of my husband, I totally lost myself for a while.  How long is too short to move on?  Do you know what I mean?  I'm not going to rob a bank, not going to kill someone - this is probably the worst thing I will ever do in my life.  I can't just be like, "Oh, I messed up.  Time to move on."  What is the consequence?  Unless the consequence is Hell, which scares me so bad I can't even think about it.

C - you wrote that you felt it was your own fault because, "I was in the room, wasn't I?"  I soo understand what you mean.

I had an extremely difficult therapy session a couple weeks ago.  She wanted to get into *details.*  She wanted all the details about the first time we were physical... .  was it skin on skin, how much touching, etc.  It was not skin on skin and somehow I was completely naked while he was clothed.  I kissed back but did not touch him at all.  (Sorry if this is tmi but it is necessary to what comes next.)  I say somehow because this is the part that really struck me.  She asked me how I was feeling once we started to kiss and he to touch me.  I got confused and said not much and asked her what she meant. 

She said a normal, healthy adult that was doing what I was doing would be feeling/thinking one of two ways:

1.  "Oh yes!  Finally!  We're getting together!"

or

2.  "I need to stop this.  This can not happen."

I told her I didn't feel either of those ways.  So she dug more and asked again.  I told her I wasn't feeling much.  That it was like I was somewhere else.  I had a fleeting thought of, "I'm kissing someone who is not my husband" and "this is wrong" and then... .  nothing.  It was like I was watching myself but not there.  She asked if I climaxed (again, sorry if tmi) and I didn't, not then or the next few times.  (He told me later that he thought that was weird and that he could not tell if I did or not most times.  And I think he was hell-bent on chaning that.  I remember the first time I must have given in to it, he said, "Finally.  I could really *feel* you were with me."

Anyway, she told me the technical term for it but now I'm getting confused with BPD ters but I think it was detaching?  Disassociating?  Something like that.  And she said that what I felt when it was happening put even more light on the fact that I was probably abused as a child because what I did was not a normal response to that situation.

I haven't been able to go back since because I went out of town.  And I'm so frustrated for two reasons:

1.  As far as the possibility of sexual abuse:  I.  CAN NOT.  REMEMBER.  And it upsets me so much.  What if I made it up?

2.  Even though I did not feel anything, was not even an iota turned on AT ALL, I still wanted it to happen.  I remember wondering that night what it would feel like if we kissed.  I would never have initiated but I did wonder/want it.  What does that say about me?

I'm left now feeling so... .  I don't even know the word.

I can not recognize that girl.  I don't see how she fell for it.  Why she wanted it.

I'm just so... .  sad... .  

[Grey Kitty]

Sheepdog, what you described in your reaction, where you "weren't feeling much" instead of

1.  "Oh yes!  Finally!  We're getting together!"

or

2.  "I need to stop this.  This can not happen."

Dissosciating is a psychological term, not just for BPDs... .  but it is a BPD behavior, so we have a Workshop on it. Perhaps reading this link will help you understand what you were doing.

Whether you were abused before or not is an important piece of the "who is sheepdog" puzzle... .  but if you don't remember, you don't remember. You can still heal from this event whether you remember anything before or not.

Even though I did not feel anything, was not even an iota turned on AT ALL, I still wanted it to happen.  I remember wondering that night what it would feel like if we kissed.  I would never have initiated but I did wonder/want it.  What does that say about me?

What does it say about you? Mostly it says that you are a human being who has thoughts and urges and feelings. Not all of them are good. You are a good person and you do your best NOT to act on the bad ones. (In this case you had a lot of pressure from the pwBPD, and you still resisted as much as you could at the time.)

I've done some intensive meditation retreats, where I try to sit quietly and follow my breathing, instead of getting lost in thoughts. Of course I have thoughts and get distracted, then go back to concentrating. (again and again and again!) One of the things my teacher told me was that MANY people after doing this have a reaction: "I used to think I was a nice person" We ALL have 'bad' thoughts and feelings. Most of us don't act on them, and mostly we don't even pay much attention to them.

I can not recognize that girl.  I don't see how she fell for it.  Why she wanted it.

Oh sheepdog!   I hope you can just find a way to forgive that girl. That is what I'm wishing for you.

Maybe understanding is a step on that path.

[laelle]

  We all love and support you Sheep.  Its a HUGE step to be able to talk about our deepest hopes and darkest fears.

I like your T btw.  She seems very knowledgeable and I know she will reach that little girl in Sheep who is hurting so badly.

We can be our own worst enemy, or we can be our best friend.

Love yourself hun, you are so worth it. 

[C12P21]

You are asking and questioning and there is not too much information... .  this is the place to let it out and share your story and my hope is to receive validation and support.

It sounds like your T is on the right track in her helping you to understand the experience you went through.

I told her I didn't feel either of those ways.  So she dug more and asked again.  I told her I wasn't feeling much.  That it was like I was somewhere else.  I had a fleeting thought of, "I'm kissing someone who is not my husband" and "this is wrong" and then... .  nothing.  It was like I was watching myself but not there. 

This is so key... .  how you felt and experienced the situation, like you weren't all there. In such moments of dissociation you are vulnerable because your mind, body and emotions are not congruent, its a confusing experience and in those moments it is hard to understand what you are experiencing or to protect yourself.

This gives me shudders:

I remember the first time I must have given in to it, he said, "Finally.  I could really *feel* you were with me."

If a caring, compassionate person realized you were not fully present and in the moment, don't you think they would understand you are conflicted and take that as a sign that the events are overwhelming? He didn't... .  he lacked empathy of YOUR experience in that moment and turned it back toward him, what he got from the encounter, not you.   This is manipulation of you and why he is toxic... . and a predator. He realized your distance and rather than seeing this as a boundary... .  and a signal, he continued anyway.

My hope is as you become aware of the times you experience such disconnect from yourself, when you feel out of balance and confused you are able to see this as a moment where you need to protect yourself. Confusion is the brain building new pathways and that is what you are doing, something is triggered inside you and your mind is trying to figure it out... .  

We are here, we support you and see your strength.

C

[sheepdog]

I really can't tell you how much I appreciate all of you.  Have not been back to therapy yet and won't be able to for a couple of weeks and my mind won't stop.

As far as the dissociation - it truly was like a zinger to me when she explained what a healthy adult would have felt in that situation.  It made me feel somewhat 'better'... .  until I remembered that I had *wanted* him to kiss me.  And that, later on down the line, I *welcomed* his touch to the point where even just standing next to him turned me on. 

C, as far as what you wrote here:

This gives me shudders:

Quote

I remember the first time I must have given in to it, he said, "Finally.  I could really *feel* you were with me."

If a caring, compassionate person realized you were not fully present and in the moment, don't you think they would understand you are conflicted and take that as a sign that the events are overwhelming? He didn't... .  he lacked empathy of YOUR experience in that moment and turned it back toward him, what he got from the encounter, not you.  This is manipulation of you and why he is toxic... . and a predator. He realized your distance and rather than seeing this as a boundary... .  and a signal, he continued anyway.

Your post also gave me a zing.  And made me feel better.  Until I thought about it some more.  I can not even tell you how what I was doing with him was a topic we discussed CONSTANTLY.  I cried in his arms or on the floor in a ball so many times.  We had a convo once after I found out that he was having an affair with our friend.  (It's gonna get a little graphic here.  I am so sorry.)

 

Anyway, he was always saying that he wished I would just do it with him and how he knew it would be mind-blowing and how he wished he could feel himself inside me... .  just once.  I never altered, never let him.  I also have already mentioned that he rarely... .  released.  It was always him working on me.  I know he had sexual problems as the beginning of the end of our relationship was when I found his Viagra. 

One day he said in this very honest (I thought) way how hard it was to never have me touch him, never have him be inside me... .  it made me feel so bad. Like I was *using* him to - release.  he had told me long before we started anything that he'd had ten sexual partners but only released/been inside one or two and that they never noticed.  I was feeling so bad because I realized that is what I was doing.  The next time we got together, I asked him if he'd like to release and so he did.  He said it was the first time he had in years (he and his wife never had sex).  He said that I was the first one that had given him an orgasm in forever.  He made it seem so... .  special.  A week later I figured out he was boinking our friend and asked him about it.  Then a month later I found the viagra. 

Anyway, after I found out about our friend (and before the Great Viagra Meltdown) we were talking about it and he said of having sex with her that it was 'terrible', 'two lost souls', 'he couldn't even come unless he was thinking of me', 'he felt nothing', 'she was all over him', 'she wouldn't stop and he told her to', etc.  A few weeks later when he was all over me again, I asked him how it felt when our friend was all over him and he said it made him feel so bad especially since he'd asked her repeatedly to stop.  I then said, "then why are you doing it to me now?  I've told you i don't want to do this anymore."  A few days later, same convo and he throws up his hands and says, "I don't KNOW!  I don't know WHY I do it.  I just want you so bad and it's like... .  it's like, I can tell when you're open to it and when you're not... .  "  I believe he was right.    He must have been able to sense it.  I sent out vibes. 

I am rambling.  This has just been a really bad week.  Thanks.

[C12P21]

Sheepdog,

You are sorting through it all and that is normal. Yes, you might have desired him to touch you, or you might have sent out vibes but the reality is this-when the event happened, you were not all there. As the relationship evolved you became confused... .  and obviously, he lied to you and continued to manipulate you.

Have you stopped to consider what drove you toward this person?

Here is a link that might help you understand yourself.

www.rainn.org/get-information/effects-of-sexual-assault/adult-survivors-of-childhood-sexual-abuse

Sadly, what you have described and are going through is not unique-but there is hope.

Please keep posting, we are here. 

C

[sheepdog]

Thanks, C

I'm just having a really, really bad week.

I'm trying not to, trying to change my attitude.

I just don't know how I'm going to get over this.  I really don't.

When you can't recognize yourself and what you've done, when you know that you hurt as hard as you could the person that loves you so much, when you realize what you're capable of, that you're not who you thought you were... .  where do you go from there?

[Cumulus]

Hi sheepdog, I feel so much courage from your posts. And sadness. I believe when we are totally broken, when we have no way to fix ourself, and we have left all excuses behind, is when we can begin to grow. That is where you can go from where you are and so many of us here are, or have been. It changed me. I am not the same person I was. I always believed I was sufficient to meet all of my needs. Being totally broken made me realize how untrue that was.

[livednlearned]

Thanks, C

I'm just having a really, really bad week.

I'm trying not to, trying to change my attitude.

I just don't know how I'm going to get over this.  I really don't.

When you can't recognize yourself and what you've done, when you know that you hurt as hard as you could the person that loves you so much, when you realize what you're capable of, that you're not who you thought you were... .  where do you go from there?

You grow. It feels scary to do it, but trust where it takes you. There is an excellent chance that you are going to end up feeling more solid about who you are than when you started. Not that it's going to be easy getting there -- that part is going to hurt a lot. But when you get to the solid part, that part feels better than anything.

I think it's the deeply spiritual part of what many of us have had to confront while coming to terms with our BPD relationships. At a certain point, you look at yourself, sometimes for the very first time, and just that alone can be frightening. You really see yourself. Right now, you're at the point where you're feeling the pain of being honest, not only with yourself, but with others. Your T, your friends here.

Next, you'll emotionally start to work through your guilt and shame. Things are definitely going to shift around for you because grown-up Sheepdog is built on childhood Sheepdog, and it sounds like there are shadows from your childhood that need to be aired out. After that, if you are true to the emotions, you'll find forgiveness.

Try to have compassion for yourself, for the child in you. Take care of her first.

That's the secret.

[sheepdog]

Thank you both.  I know I sound like a broken record.  I made an appointment for next weekend.

I have such incredible fear - of my husband finding out, of others finding out, of others already knowing... .  every little 'slight' (whether it is a slight or not) is me 1000% sure they *know*.

If people knew, I would have to just disappear.

And whether or not to tell my husband - it weighs on me.

I think if I knew no one would find out, I could grow.  There are people at work who are constantly telling me how they love me, how nice I am, how amazing.  I am positive if they knew what I'd done, what I am - they would not speak to me again.

I want to run away.  Leave this town.  Disappear.

What I'm stuck on is that I broke myself.  If BPD had been my boyfriend, if I hadn't cheated, etc. - then I think I could lift myself up from this.  Bit because I did this, I just... .  can't.

[arabella]

I think if I knew no one would find out, I could grow.  There are people at work who are constantly telling me how they love me, how nice I am, how amazing.  I am positive if they knew what I'd done, what I am - they would not speak to me again.

Sheepdog.   I'm so glad to hear that you are still trying to receive help. You deserve to be happy again. (Yes you do!)

We found out. We know what you've done. And guess what? We still think you're nice and amazing! You are acting as judge, jury, and executioner not only for yourself but everyone else around you. I know it's only easy to say - but try to practice compassion.

[sheepdog]

I think if I knew no one would find out, I could grow.  There are people at work who are constantly telling me how they love me, how nice I am, how amazing.  I am positive if they knew what I'd done, what I am - they would not speak to me again.

Sheepdog.   I'm so glad to hear that you are still trying to receive help. You deserve to be happy again. (Yes you do!)

We found out. We know what you've done. And guess what? We still think you're nice and amazing! You are acting as judge, jury, and executioner not only for yourself but everyone else around you. I know it's only easy to say - but try to practice compassion.

Thank you arabella.

But even on here, people who used to respond to my posts don't anymore.

My healthy mind says they are busy, didn't read it, etc.

The other part KNOWS it is because they found out what I really am.

Very difficult therapy session this am - first one in about 7 weeks.

She thinks I need to see a priest/minister/something and confess... .  

[livednlearned]

I think if I knew no one would find out, I could grow.  There are people at work who are constantly telling me how they love me, how nice I am, how amazing.  I am positive if they knew what I'd done, what I am - they would not speak to me again.

Sheepdog.   I'm so glad to hear that you are still trying to receive help. You deserve to be happy again. (Yes you do!)

We found out. We know what you've done. And guess what? We still think you're nice and amazing! You are acting as judge, jury, and executioner not only for yourself but everyone else around you. I know it's only easy to say - but try to practice compassion.

Thank you arabella.

But even on here, people who used to respond to my posts don't anymore.

My healthy mind says they are busy, didn't read it, etc.

The other part KNOWS it is because they found out what I really am.

Very difficult therapy session this am - first one in about 7 weeks.

She thinks I need to see a priest/minister/something and confess... .  

Listen to your healthy mind   

You're a good person, sheepdog. I admire you so much for overcoming your fears about seeing a T, and sticking to it. I'm always glad when I see that you've posted 

[arabella]

Listen to your healthy mind   

You're a good person, sheepdog. I admire you so much for overcoming your fears about seeing a T, and sticking to it. I'm always glad when I see that you've posted 

Yes - agreed! Your unhealthy mind will tell you all sorts of lies - it would try to convince you that you're responsible for the weather if it could.

How do you feel about the idea of speaking to a religious figure? Is it something that you think might help?

[Cumulus]

Another here lending support, knowing what you have written and believing you have courage kindness and great love within from what I have read. Do you feel it is harder to forgive yourself then it is others? I know I can struggle with that. I think it comes from demanding perfection from myself and in my life yet understanding and allowing others to be human and forgiving their all too human errors. 

[123Phoebe]

Hi Sheepdog

Have you tried applying Radical Acceptance to your own situation?  Acceptance that you're human and not a super hero.  Humans make decisions sometimes that looking back later on, might not have been the best ones.  We ALL have skeletons in our closets.  

Depending on my mood (PMS?), there have times when I've laid in bed, thought about something I did in the past, felt that rush and flush of shame to the max, and pulled the covers over my head!  I've wanted to disappear just like you.  And then you know what I did?  Cracked up laughing at how ridiculous I look if my house was made of glass and anyone could look in and see me.  Then you know what I did?  Imagined everyone's house being see through and the shenanigans going on behind those glass walls and I felt comforted with the fact that we're all imperfect.

You're cute, Sheepdog, and you have a huge heart   Take it easy on yourself



 

[Phoenix.Rising]

Yes, we are all perfectly imperfect!  I'm glad to hear you are continuing to seek guidance from a professional.  I started seeing a new therapist recently and it has helped.  Others are often able to see our blind-spots.  You are making great progress!  Keep it up!   

[sheepdog]

Thank you, everyone.  I don't really feel I am making progress.  I have been feeling SO much anger the past two weeks.  I talked to therapist about it and she said anger is exactly what I should be feeling but I feel it spilling into other aspects of my life.

No, I can not forgive myself.

I am open to talking to a religious figure about it but I am scared he's going to tell me I'm going to Hell and I have no idea how to explaing all this to him and honestly, unless I hear it straight from God, I don't know that I will believe it.

I am just at a very angry and confused point.

Therapist said I need to tell my husband.  I can't think of anything else.  Feel so sick.  Know the end is coming soon.

[Free One]

Therapist said I need to tell my husband.  I can't think of anything else.  Feel so sick.  Know the end is coming soon.

I think I might agree. I wonder if you are having such a hard time forgiving yourself because you haven't told him, so in your mind you are still lying to him?

[Cumulus]

Hey sheepdog, I have no advice to give, just want you to know that I am wishing you well with whatever decisions you need to make. I hope the outcome will lighten the very heavy burden you have been carrying.

[arabella]

Sometimes (often times) the anticipation and dread are far worse than the reality. Maybe you do need to talk to a few people in order to let yourself move forward?

I know how overwhelming anger can be. It's exhausting. And being exhausted doesn't help with the confusion, so it's doubly hard. It's part of the process though. You've spoken with a professional (your T) and she said you're where you should be... . Trust that you are going to get through this. You ARE making progress - it's just hard to see when you're living it.

I'm rooting for you, Sheepdog!