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Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse... Have you considered that being critical, judgmental, or invalidating toward the other parent, no matter what she or he just did will only make matters worse? Someone has to be do something. This means finding the motivation to stop making things worse, learning how to interrupt your own negative responses, body language, facial expressions, voice tone, and learning how to inhibit your urges to do things that you later realize are contributing to the tensions.
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Author Topic: craziness post divorce/no custody order  (Read 2882 times)
nowheretogo
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« on: April 08, 2013, 11:46:23 AM »

Ex is now escalating his craziness.  He moved into an apt. over 2 weeks ago, but has been coming and going from my house at will.  Our marital settlement agreement states that he has until 4/15 to move out, but my attorney said, yes he has moved out.  I had the locks changed this weekend, and texted him to let him know this morning and said if he needed to get anything else out of the house, that we could arrange it.  He has been out of control since I am not agreeing to having a 50/50 custody arrangement with our D2, which would allow him the opportunity to get child support later on if we did get a court order (I am sure the sole purpose of his desire for me to "be amicable" with this).  After texting him about the locks, he sent me a barrage of return texts, which he always does, about how he is now going to keep D2 until we can agree and that I have "proven to be unstable and that I can't be amicable".  He says I violated the order (by chanigng the locks?) She spent the night at his place last night.  He keeps pressing that he wants her on the every other weekend that is the same weekend that I have my S7, so that I have one child each weekend.  He is missing the point that neither 50/50 custody nor being separated from her brother are in her best interest.  He keeps maintaining that I can't be amicable, that I am attempting to keep him from seeing her, etc.  My L sent his L a message prob. two weeks ago saying that I agree to every other weekend, with him having this past and then alternating, and that he can pick her up from daycare whilst he doesn't have a job until I come and get her after work.  He keeps saying that he can't see her on the other weekends, because he is on call for his pseudo part-time job as a sober house manager (that has only had one resident to date and had only paid him $75 as of about 3 weeks ago) and that he has 3 friends with siblings who get their kids on the weekends that he wants her and therefore his request is justified.  Not to mention his saying, "Sorry, but it's not my problem.  I'm not the one who has a kid from another father (no, he has 3 other kids from 2 other mothers)."  and "You're the one who wanted the divorce, so this is  how it's going to be."  I have explained that my parents are coming this coming weekend and gp have rights in our state, and that it is my weekend, to which he maintains that he will have her for at least Fri. night and Sun night because that is the weekend that is "good for him".  He is also making up bs about his S19 having to work on the weekends that he doesn't want to have.  Of note, this past weekend, I maintained it was his weekend and he could pick her up Fri and have her until Sun. evening.  But it was his bday fri, and he went ahead out of town Fri evening (got her from 3-7 pm).  On Sat around noon he texted me that he could get her by 1230.  I replied that she was having a play date, and I could let him know when it was done... .   which got a barrage of text replies stating he told me he'd be back early Sat am (no he didn't) that I'm trying to keep him from seeing her and all of that same old stuff.  Then he texted me at almost 8 pm that he would be home all night if I felt like dropping her off.  what the heck?  He could have picked her up anytime Sat. afternoon, but I think he was still out of town and  just manipulating the situation in writing to try to make it look like I am denying him.  He got her Sun am and when I told him last night that I was coming to get her at 6:15, he told me no.  This is so gd crazy, I can hardly take it anymore.  oh, I left out the part where he came to the house this past Wed. and was raging so much that two neighbors came over.  I was trying to leave with D2 to get away from the situation and he pushed me out of the way and yanked her out of the car.  I spoke with L that night, and should have called the cops, but let it go because the last time I called they said this is "Not a police matter".  I am going over to get her tonight, and if he raises a stink, I am planning to dial 911.  What other advice do you have?
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ForeverDad
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You can't reason with the Voice of Unreason...


« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2013, 01:08:58 PM »

My L sent his L a message prob. two weeks ago saying that I agree to every other weekend, with him having this past and then alternating, and that he can pick her up from daycare whilst he doesn't have a job until I come and get her after work.

I hope L didn't leave it open-ended.  There has to be a time limit on it.  You already know he has no incentive to get a real job and allowing that without a clear end date is enabling him to keep on doing this.  Since his move was originally scheduled for 4/15, why not have that be the end of his near-daily encroachment in your life?  One point you need to establish, if at all possible, is that he does not encroach on your parenting time without clearly specified written just cause.  Of course that likely goes both ways.

The perfect time to press for a clear distinction between your parenting and his parenting is at the time of the separated residences.  Yes, he's left already, but I suspect you can set the limit for pickups at the written "move out by" date.  Do you have your own arrangements prepared and in place?

He keeps saying that he can't see her on the other weekends, because he is on call for his pseudo part-time job as a sober house manager (that has only had one resident to date and had only paid him $75 as of about 3 weeks ago) and that he has 3 friends with siblings who get their kids on the weekends that he wants her and therefore his request is justified.  Not to mention his saying, "Sorry, but it's not my problem.  I'm not the one who has a kid from another father (no, he has 3 other kids from 2 other mothers)."  and "You're the one who wanted the divorce, so this is how it's going to be."  I have explained that my parents are coming this coming weekend and gp have rights in our state, and that it is my weekend, to which he maintains that he will have her for at least Fri. night and Sun night because that is the weekend that is "good for him".  He is also making up bs about his S19 having to work on the weekends that he doesn't want to have.

You can't reason with someone who isn't listening to reason.  You've tried and failed.  Stop fretting over his obstructions and trashing.  Knowing that, what do you do?  Make sure all statements (anticipate that requests and pleas will fall on deaf ears) are made or written with the added expectation of being read at some future time by the court, social workers or evaluators.  Write it with them in mind, not for him, you already know he's a hopeless cause.  Of course, keep it simple so you don't invite him to get himself triggered, but write it as though it is your documentation for later, which it is.

His S19?  S19 is an ADULT.  There is no basis for him to be referencing an adult as basis for a specific weekend schedule, well, maybe he does have reason and wants S19 to care for your son while he's doing whatever or nothing?

Believe us, court is 99% sure to review the existing parenting schedules with other minor children and rule accordingly.  Courts try to keep the children together and synchronizing visitation weekends is standard.  Him trying for an exception and split the kids to different weekends (almost surely) won't work.

As for the rest of his endless chaos attempts, accept that it's his modus operandi (MO) and go ahead and do as you decide is best, with the general advice of your lawyer of course.

Edit:  A few people here have sometimes stated, don't make room in your head for that posturing.  In the grand scheme of things, odds are the court will just brush his emotional blah-blah-blah posturing to the side and ignore most of it.  Yes, they may try to 'compromise' with him and you, but you need to be careful not to give him a break and then court add more breaks on top of your break.  You just need to be sure you are acting and reacting firmly with reasonableness and boundaries and in line with how family court usually sees things.

I left out the part where he came to the house this past Wed. and was raging so much that two neighbors came over.  I was trying to leave with D2 to get away from the situation and he pushed me out of the way and yanked her out of the car.  I spoke with L that night, and should have called the cops, but let it go because the last time I called they said this is "Not a police matter".

Pushing is unwelcome physical contact and is a No-No, a bit different than verbal conflict.  Did the neighbors see it?  Ask lawyer about that.  If it were me, I'd at least ask the neighbors to write dates statements what they witnessed and when.  A statement may not mean much to the court, my lawyer always said you can't cross-examine a piece of paper, but if that ever does happen, you'd be able to show it to them to refresh their memories.

I am going over to get her tonight, and if he raises a stink, I am planning to dial 911.  What other advice do you have?

There is higher conflict now, it's coming down to the wire now with custody issues next, perhaps "now or never" in his perception, the risk of an incident is higher now.  Bring a trusted witness with you or record yourself, or both.  Going to his 'turf' is especially sensitive.
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nowheretogo
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« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2013, 01:21:09 PM »

The only time limit he put on it is until 6 pm when I get her from work; and I am pissed that he sent it without my reviewing it first, because I had changed my mind and didn't even want him to say that he could keep continuing the daycare pickups, but L just sent a letter. 

I think you are right, we need to use the 4/15 end-date as a new start-date for some form of a parenting schedule. 

Yes, I have arrangements in place, and can both drop her off and pick her up from the daycare.

I don't know who I could possibly bring with me to get D2 tonight... .   how would I record myself?
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nowheretogo
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« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2013, 01:26:42 PM »

Well, S7 will be with me when I go to get her.  But I'm sure he's not a credible witness, right?
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« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2013, 01:52:33 PM »

No, S7 is not to get involved as a witness.  All these months of conflict and you haven't been recording?   Is there no one among co-workers or trusted friends who can help you figure out the recording aspect?  Many cell phones can record.  Or go to someplace like Radio Shack or online and purchase an MP3 player that can also record, or a voice recorder that can upload the files to computers.  (I happen to have 3 Olympus voice recorders, the only problem with these older models is that they need proprietary software installed to access and copy the files.)

Matt would probably tell you to inform lawyer sternly not to ever send an important letter without you reviewing it first.  And never send something that is open-ended or doesn't set clear limits.

Excerpt
Mr. Other Lawyer,

Now that ex has moved out and is residing elsewhere, this is to serve as a reminder that since the two parties now have separate residences, my client has instructed that ex does not pick up their child on the days their child will not be spending the evening or overnights with him.  This will commence starting on hit which coincides with the date the court set for them to have separate residences.  You will appreciate that it is best for both parties to begin living separate lives and settling into their separate parenting arrangements.

We have already expressed our position that alternate weekends for your client beginning with hit weekend and the Thursday evening in between is appropriate until the court sets a schedule.   It may be that your client doesn't see things that way, but if need be that can be resolved in court, if we don't settle it earlier.

My Lawyer

I have no idea how legal that is, but it sure sounds reasonable.
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nowheretogo
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« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2013, 02:03:49 PM »

I do have some recordings, but they are illegal   L has informed me that I should not even mention them to any professionals, in case ex were to find out.
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nowheretogo
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« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2013, 02:06:29 PM »

I will make sure that the letter sending never happens again pre-approval.  And never is open-ended or without clear limits again.  I am really worried about the long-term impact of this first letter and feel like choking L, except I didn't explicitly say "make sure I see it first", so it's really my fault, but still makes me sick. 
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« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2013, 02:10:25 PM »

If it helps, view a second letter as clarification of the first?  After all, in part it would be confirming that the agreed-upon move out did occur.
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nowheretogo
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« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2013, 02:40:20 PM »

Yes, ok, you are helping to make me feel better.  Unfortunately, I guess L is too busy to get in touch with me today... .  
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« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2013, 03:06:39 PM »

You are only one week from the April 15 deadline for his moving, so you need to get anything and everything clarified this week, if possible.

I believe many custody agreements specify visitation as the 1st and third weekends of the month, (or 2nd and 4th), with the non-resident parent getting a fifth weekend if and when that happens.  If your son's agreement specifies that, you can use the same wording.

With his escalation to physical interference, you have something to use to lock in a temp agreement.  It's the best possible reason for moving to a set schedule that he can't argue with.
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nowheretogo
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« Reply #10 on: April 08, 2013, 03:15:29 PM »

But unless he actually does something to force an emergency temporary hearing, we are going to be stuck with "trying to agree" on what L proposes, just as we already are, and we can see how that is going.  As long as there is no order, he is going to argue, and I'm certainly not going to give in and let him have her as much as he wants until then either.  L thinks it may be several months until there is an order because we will wind up going the route of custody evaluations... .   I hate to hope for physical abuse... .   but short of it, I don't know if I call the police because he is yelling and refusing to turn her over tonight will do anything other than shut him up for a few minutes.
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nowheretogo
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« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2013, 03:29:36 PM »

I will be at work until about 5, and at ex's near 6 pm.  Will have S7 with.  Should I leave him in car while I go to door to get her?  How far in advance should I send a message that I am coming?  Does the message have to be by email, or is text ok?  I am getting soo nervous. 
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« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2013, 05:33:44 PM »

But he HAS done something to justify an emergency hearing - he has shoved you and grabbed the child.
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« Reply #13 on: April 09, 2013, 07:00:05 AM »

I am so sorry that your ex has escalated things.  However, he is doing a lot of things that will not make him look good to the Judge.   

But he HAS done something to justify an emergency hearing - he has shoved you and grabbed the child.

And perhaps a restraining order as well?

He has also threatened to keep the child from you until you give him what he wants.  Keep those texts. 

How did the pick up go? 
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nowheretogo
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« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2013, 07:46:20 AM »

well, in classic crazy style, after sweating all day long, I texted him on the way home that I would be there around 6:15 to get her and he replied "OK."  What the heck?

There was an email from his L to mine around 4 pm saying that I had changed the locks and he still has things to get out of the house and he would have ex request times and dates and that hopefully some would work for me.  Nothing else.

I talked to my L just before texting ex that I was coming to get D2 and he said he didn't think he would keep her from me... .   he was right, but I was shocked.  Of course this is also a preface to him soon asking to keep her overnight in another day or two, and then raising cane when I disagree, saying that he cooperated, but I can't be amicable, yadda yadda yadda.
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« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2013, 08:39:41 AM »

Another extinction burst?  Perhaps talking to his L? 

The email from his L: gives you an opening for the 2nd letter to straightened out pre-school pick up, request an itemized list of things he wants from the house, and address getting the photos. 

A written itemized list will let you pack it up or gather in one place, and all he has to do is pick it up. . .no excuse to overstay, or "find" something else, etc.   
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nowheretogo
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« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2013, 08:45:19 AM »

I guess if I had called the police last Wed, I might have had grounds for an emergency custody hearing, maybe.  But I didn't.  I feel like I call them when I shouldn't, and don't when I should.

catnap, I think it may have been talking to his L, and his L is pretty good with him. 

I am thinking about another letter like you said, as well, and did mention to L yesterday... .   although not about including the list of things.  I am pretty sure that he is going to say he also wants to get wine glass racks and shelf off of the wall (not in the settlement agreement) as a way to make sure he gets into the house.  What is that all about anyway?  He just wants to spy on me?
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nowheretogo
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« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2013, 12:30:19 PM »

Now he just sent me a text asking me what the schedule for getting D2 this week is.

Should I just reply with something like "I will pick her up from you after work.  My parents will be here Fri-Wed, so she will stay with me for that time.  Next weekend will be your weekend."

He is going to throw a fit, maintaining that I am trying to force him to take those weekends that aren't good for him, and that I am trying to keep him from seeing her and when will he have another overnight (next weekend).  But I need to stick to it, right?
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You can't reason with the Voice of Unreason...


« Reply #18 on: April 09, 2013, 01:03:48 PM »

Toddlers and preschoolers throw fits too.  But most eventually grow up.
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nowheretogo
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« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2013, 02:37:24 PM »

Yeah, I know.  Smiling (click to insert in post)  I sent a text saying "I will pick her up from him today at 6:15".  L has already sent his L a letter stating that I agree to every other weekend and him picking her up at daycare until I get home from work around 6 pm.  According to that letter, this coming weekend is my weekend.  I have stuck to this schedule in any (very little) correspondence that I have had with ex.  I am planning to just have L resend a letter to clarify the schedule one more time for now (with intention to edit the daycare pick-up arrangement in the near future), and also to include having him list what he still needs to get from the house so that we can try to get that done as efficiently and non-invasively as possible.

His reply (to my text above):  "I want to know the rest of the week."

I have been ignoring, but think I could safely say, "Same thing".  (meaning today-Fri.).  I have already stated multiple times that my parents are coming this weekend and it is my weekend and that his weekend should be the following one.  Also, my parents are staying until Wed. am, so am planning to also have L clarify this in the new letter, letting him know that he can resume getting her again Wed. afternoon.  Of course he will ask for "make-up time". 

ugh.

Do you think this plan sounds ok?
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« Reply #20 on: April 09, 2013, 04:44:13 PM »

It's all a crap shoot until you have an agreement signed.

Stay consistent with what you already told him and refer him to your lawyer.

He has no more right to make-up days than you do. There is no permanent agreement.
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« Reply #21 on: April 09, 2013, 07:11:42 PM »

Waiting until there is an agreement in place is going to make your life living hell. You know that he is not going to agree to your terms, that there will probably be a custody evaluation, so why not move this forward at a faster pace? Can you suggest mediation? I don't know how it works in your state, but there must be something that can get a date on the calendar where you two officially try and sort this out. You know and we know that it will fail, but at least you are not waiting and waiting and waiting.

But the good news is that he's out -- focus on the incremental successes! There is a lot of failure flying around when we divorce pwBPD, so when you do something assertive, even if it's to correct a mistake, take note of it. That's what will help build your strength, recognizing every small boundary you set, acknowledging every time you assert yourself, noticing every moment you feel strong. 

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« Reply #22 on: April 09, 2013, 07:50:52 PM »

LNL's right, moving faster will be better for all. In fact, failing at mediation can also make the court process work faster because you gave it your best and it didn't work... .  
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« Reply #23 on: April 09, 2013, 09:01:06 PM »

Keep an eye on your lawyer too. Sounds like one that doesn't understand BPD, so you'll have to be extra vigilant. Definitely tell your L you do not want any letters going out without your express consent and approval. When I asserted myself with my L, it earned me her respect. There are normal people out there who aren't like our BPD exes, and they respond in positive ways when we tell them what our boundaries are. You can do this  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #24 on: April 10, 2013, 08:46:20 AM »

I had another thought on the items he still needs to get. . .you could drop them off (assuming you get an itemized list) at his lawyer's office, or you can plan to have a neighbor or friend over when he comes to pick up his stuff. 

Excerpt
What is that all about anyway?  He just wants to spy on me?

Some may just be curiosity, but with BPD so much boils down to control.  You changed the locks (setting a boundary) and he can no longer just waltz in and do what he wants. 

I hope that you have a wonderful visit with your parents.    



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« Reply #25 on: April 10, 2013, 10:58:33 AM »

Yes, he wants to spy on you! He wants to control you and know everything he can so he can manipulate and bully you. The kind of stuff my ex sent me after we divorced -- hoowheee. He wanted to know the layout and floorplan of my apartment, where the wifi routers were located, where the bedrooms were located, etc... . Creepy creepy creepy.

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« Reply #26 on: April 10, 2013, 12:31:24 PM »

Yes, he wants to spy on you! He wants to control you and know everything he can so he can manipulate and bully you. The kind of stuff my ex sent me after we divorced -- hoowheee. He wanted to know the layout and floorplan of my apartment, where the wifi routers were located, where the bedrooms were located, etc... . Creepy creepy creepy.

That is so scary!  It's just weird.  I have an image of him hiding in the bushes outside the room where the wifi router is located, hacking in to your email.
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Relationship status: married 11/2009, filed for divorce 11/2011; divorced 3/2013; primary custodian
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« Reply #27 on: April 10, 2013, 03:05:00 PM »

So, to try to catch you all up quickly, I did reply back to him that the schedule would be the same for the rest of the week (I will get her from him at 6:15 through Fri).

He replied with a string of text messages that read as the following:

OK, nwtg.  Sorry that won't work for me.  I am  her father so I guess we will wing it

Plz pick her up at 7 because I just got done working on truck

Since we are not in agreement I say we temporaly come up with something until the court desides I think she spend two days with you then two nights or three and every other weekend.  Starting this weekend with me... .   only u will get her this time due to ur parents

I replied:

I will pick her up at seven but in the futre I would like it to be earlier.  It is in D2's best interest to have a consistent routine and I value having an appropriate bedtime for a 2 year old.

On to the rest from him:

Her what ntwg?  half the time she doesn't go to bed till 930 what important for her to pend time with her dad... . why r u making this more difficult then it has to be

How about I do what ur doing how wouldd u feel... .   routine lmao

OK seems you r not willing to compramise... .   its one thing u not want to be with me but its in the best interest that D2 spend equal time with the parents

U lie so bad ur teeth are going to fall out... .  

I think u forget I lived there

Oh and routine... . is it routine to dress her in the same dirty clothes two days in a row... .   or is it that she controls u or is it that u let her do whatever she wants to secure that line that u trying so hard to do.

Those are ver batim.  I did not reply again.  He seems to be saying that I'm lying about routines, but I have always believed that, and have always tried to put them into place, with him always being the obstruction, including yesterday (changed pickup time to 7 pm and so S7 and I had to change our plans and be uncomfortable).

I am not giving in.  I am going to pick her up today at 6:15 no matter what he says.  I want L to send another letter and to call and talk to his L, because this is crazy.  #1, I want the continuous texting to stop!  #2, I'm not changing my mind about what is best for D2.  She is 2, and needs consistency.  She should sleep in the same familiar bed on "school nights" (ex will argue she is not in school), and not be bouncing back and forth, especially in the midst of all this new transition.

I don't know what's going to happen, if his L will talk some sense into him, or what, but I am not budging.

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GaGrl
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« Reply #28 on: April 10, 2013, 05:32:42 PM »

I absolutely agree that a reasonable and consistent bedtime (and routine leading up to bedtime) is critical afford children. Even if your stbx won't provide that on hiß time, you can do so on your time and your D will thrive on it.

The texting isn't good. It needs to shift to email - much less disruptive.

Stay focused on your desired goal. You know he's manipulating you for financial benefits.
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livednlearned
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« Reply #29 on: April 10, 2013, 10:24:52 PM »

I swear, there must be a BPD manual. The tone is so familiar, and the twisting, weird logic.

Being consistent is going to be your best friend. Focus on what is best for D2 -- courts agree that consistency matters. The more he destabilizes the routine and tries to loosely coordinate a schedule (through text, no less), the worse he is going to look. If you can, over and over and over and over again say the same thing to him: I do not want to work this out through text. Until we have an order from the court, this is a matter that should be settled through email. D2 needs a stable routine, a stable bedtime, and as much consistency in her schedule as we can give her.

Or something like that.

Are you saving the text messages? If not, be a good idea to start that now. He's going to give you a lot of material.

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